Chelsea: thanks for caring. i am posting here and sometimes on INS....i really don't belong here but i have bonded with some of these people and their knowledge, you included, is so valuable. i will probably never belong here and maybe it is time to switch to surviving d since that is the direction my j is running to. i just posted on your topic keeping ron afloat...i am confused, i talk to h but when i say what is happening he defaults and says talk to you later. i think he has started the process...gut feeling. my kids want me to go already...but like i wrote in the other thread...i am not ready and the sad part is, i may never be ready. i am a good person (old...and believe me being 55 and single is not going to be fun) who is loving and kind...oh, i am very insecure and need to be needed and loved more than most people..i have high expectations for the people i love and care about..and honesty is very important to me...but this fear of being alone is taking over my entire persona.
keep in touch...i am up for individual e-mails as well.
how are things in your life. the trust thing was not as hard for me the last time since he was so sincere (believe it or not) about this never happening again and about us living happily ever after. i guess i have always believed in him...and that is part of my problem. i trusted him and his love. one thing i know, don't ask him questions about ow and affair...they don't like to talk about it....ever.
For me, I have trouble with "anniversaries" of bad things--like this past Xmas I kept thinking of the previous Xmas Eve when he was in another room talking to OW (I found out later) and spent no time shopping for presents for our daughter and me; also the first anniversary of my discovering the affair is coming up.
(Brief history--I discovered affair last March. Never separated. He ended the affiar, but was still acting very resentful (the main cause of the affair was likely resetnment...). Retrouvaille weekend last June turned us around. Our sex life is very sporadic--not on my initiative--but that's another story. He's dedicated to restoring our marriage, but he never talks about it and I seem to spend 12 hours a day thinking about it).
I just get so sad--and mad--but these negative feelings invariably pop up when we're not together. When we are together things feel really good. He's not a verbal person, but it's clear he truly regrets what he did--but I guess I really want to hear him beat himself up for it--of course, he'd probably rather put it out of his mind, because he's probably so ashamed. He never SAYS the magic words "ILY" but his Xmas and Vaentine cards were wonderful.
Will I ever lose these feelings of hurt, anger, sadness, depression? PMA definitely helps for the time being--or just looking at one of those cards.
Oops--and now to get to the point of this topic... I feel that because he never really owned up to everything that he did (details of the big affair, probably other affairs--most likely emotional) that I can never really trust that he won't do it again. He hasn't really told me anything what I didn't already know.
I keep telling myself that if he'd just say "I can't believe what I did to jeopardize our family and disrespect you. I'll answers any and all of your questions. I'll never do it again. I love you with all my heart. Please forgive me." then all would be well in my head. But I'd probably still have my doubts.
[This message has been edited by MaryBB (edited 02-22-2000).]
Your whole message sounds like my life, and the last paragraph of your post could have been written by me. Ditto Ditto Ditto.
What time wasters we are. We will be waiting for the cows to come home before these men give us what we want. They can't and they won't because they are different to us. They don't see things the same way we do, don't hold the same things precious like we do. We are emotional they aren't.
The clouds opened for me this week and I finally saw the silver lining. An incident happened on Valentine's day where I was expecting certain things to happen and they didn't. I fell into another big emotional heap and then realised that I am reading too much into every thing my H does. Every action he took or didn't take, not responding, not talking, not doing, screamed things at me that just aren't there or weren't true. I was expecting my H to do things that he didn't even know he was supposed to be doing then using the results (nothing) to justify my "right" to wallow in self pity.
I then knew what doing a 180 was all about. I understood it completely. I started to break the situation down into smaller pieces and doing a 180 on each of those pieces. The change within my H was evident in one day. I had become as Michele had told me a Fix-it addict. I was so lost in my self and my emotional state and was looking for solutions outside me to help me fix the problem. Waiting for something or someone else to fix everything.
I now know that the solutions are within me. I can make a difference, I can be proactive. OK my H made the big mistake and as he says will never forgive himself for what he put me through, but it could just have easily been me. I have no right to punish him and get all self-righteous and be a martyr. I was waiting for him to fix it because he broke it but it takes two to tango.
Because I was so involved with me and my recovery and having my needs met I failed to "see" H in the bigger picture. I failed to see who he was and where he has come from and where he is going.
Now that I have taken the pressure off myself (and H) I am starting to see that he does have qualities that can be admired. I am starting to see him not as a fool, a liar, untrustworthy and a weak man but as someone who had just lost his way over the years. Someone who had lost his footing and stumbled and the more he fell the more he got lost.
He does deserve my love and my understanding and if we continue on this path then I believe the other things that I need will be given to me, will fall into place of their own accord. I just have to have faith and keep faith and even though I know there will be other tests further down the track, I will be more able to cope with them using my newfound strength and resilience and the resources I have been given through people like Michele and the rest of the people on this forum.
[This message has been edited by Delaceyk (edited 02-18-2000).]
Del, Yes! Yes! Yes! I agree with you completely. Everything you said is so true!
I especially agree with your comments about that we tend to pick apart things our H's do or do not do based on what WE hold dear or true. When I start to not believe that my H does love me, itusually because he isn't being "affectionate" in the ways that I feel affection should be given. In his eyes, he IS being affectionate-- he comes over all the time, he returns the ILU's, he helps with the house hold projects, he talks to me on the phone (something he hates).... I just have to remember to look at things the way he really MEANS them, and not interpret them MY way.
My H and I are filling out the emotional needs questionaires from the marriage builders sight. I have mine finished, but he is taking longer, because he isn't used to this type of self reflection and communication. I learned a lot about myself by just filling them out! And I can't wait to share them with my H. I know that his will help me figure out how to better meet his needs too=== what I am doing right, and where I can improve and how.
I think this will further us along the road to trust again. My H knows and admits that there are going to be trust issues. Even if he didn't have the OW, there is trust issues because he left at all... but I think trust is a gift we give ourselves--just like forgiveness. It means we take a risk in getting hurt again, BUT I know I can't live in a trustless marriage, so I can't be the one to deny the trust. I have to take that chance.
Don't you just love the rush of the leaps of blind faith?
chelsea: haven't heard from you in a while. how are things going. i love reading this thread where i would love to be and probably never will be...how so many people get their mates to therapy and to complete surveys and reach for reconciliation. i haven't seen h in three weeks. talk with him...but as always, i fall into the trap and he pushes my buttons and i begin to talk about US and almost get to the begging/pleading thing....he didn't call last night like he promised...i refuse to call him. he called this morning thinking i had paged him...said he would call tonight. i have school break next week (no school today because of forecast of winter storm) and h probably doesn't even know i am off work and will be gone. once he figures it out, gives him 'permission' to sleep at ow i guess. i think she is legally separated but since my h isn't, he takes a big risk...he knows that. i have decided that yes, i will begin to move on but not file...i still have a glimmer of some hope...but my children and dearest and oldest friends continually tell me, h is never coming home (he tells me the same thing) so it is time to throw in the towel. i can't....i am afraid that i will regret it. have you all had that feeling.
considering the poor situation i am in...do you all still think getting michele's tapes would be helpful. i am dbing as best i can. backing off as best as i can. trying not to talk relationship...and to be up and positive. h keeps saying to others (he will never tell me or talk to me about his feelings...something that has gone on for years...i think for some reason he is afraid to be weak yet talking your feelings is not a sign of weakness but strength i think) that once i am stable he is filing...i feel damned.
i think my postings get repetitive as well. anyway...just thinking about all of you.
Mary BB, Del, Sonia--you all have sure worded things to a T as far as our feelings and what we can & should do about them. Like Del had stated, that could be my post! I guess it's just a matter of seeing that silver lining, which happens at different times for all of us.
Because we have "suffered" through their infidility and leaving, we assume they should drop to our feet for forgiveness. But on the flip-side, there was a reason for their actions (even though I may never fully understand, but will work to accept). It takes two!
Ronnie, I'm doing alright. I'll post under other thread and leave this one for trust issues. Nice to hear from you!
Special thanks to delaceyk--I'm at the office (don't have WEB at home), and I had to choke back my tears in reading your wise, heartfelt words, especially "I am starting to see him not as a fool, a liar, untrustworthy and a weak man but as someone who had just lost his way over the years. Someone who had lost his footing and stumbled and the more he fell the more he got lost."
Thank you--I'm printing out your post and will keep it with me for inspiration.
Thankyou all for expressing exactly what I have been struggling with. My problem is not trusting my H again but learning to accept his love in the ways that he shows me he loves me and not in the ways I daydream about. Your right I could wait until the cows come home for him to turn into Mr. Romance. It just isn't him.
I know he loves me and he has apologized for his affair and accepted responsibility for his actions. He is doing all he can from his point of view to repair our relationship. Problem is he thinks it is fixed and he is happy so he thinks I should be too. He doesn't think about what happened I am sure as it is uncomfortable for him while I think about it all the time. I keep asking myself how he could have crossed the line? How could he have carried on with OW and how did he justify his actions to himself? Just what are his moral values and who is he anyway? Do I really know him because the man I have been married to for 30 years wouldn't have done what he did. But all this dwelling on it is only driving me crazy and frustrating him.
Affection has always been a big issue with me. He doesn't show affection the same way I do and I haven't understood in the past that he shows affection his way. While I was DBing saving this marriage I hoped that when he decided he wanted to work on our marriage that would mean he would be willing to do all those little affectionate things that we women love. Well it hasn't worked out that way and now I am having to accept the fact that he is from Mars just like the book says and is very different from those of us who came from Venus.
Delaceyk your post was very helpful to me. I understand and feel the same way you do and I want the same things you want. I don't want the details of his affair but I do want him to keep telling me how much he loves me and that he was wrong and that it will never happen again. But he said those things once and Martians generally feel that saying something once is enough.
MaryBB your post was also right on target. I have been having times of great sadness thinking about all that he did and the pain and sadness that I could not show him while I was Dbing my butt off is now bubbling to the surface and I have been struggling with it. I am beginning to see from you all that I have to let go of these feelings or they will destroy what I have fought so hard to achieve.
I think learning how to focus on the positives and let go of the negatives is the answer. I am seeing our DB therapist alone this week because it became real obvious in our last couple of joint sessions that my H is happy and loves me but I am the one now who has a problem. I have many resentments and I have set the bar too high for my H to have any chance of meeting my expectations. I think she is going to tell me again how resentments can ruin what I have worked so hard to accomplish. Maybe she can explain how he could have done what he did and how and what he is thinking to me. For sure I can wait till the cows come home before he tells me.
Thanks for letting me know I am not alone in what I am going through. I will keep looking for the silver lining and watching this thread for more help.
Thanks for posting this thread. It has made me realise that I am not alone with this particular hurdle.
To everyone else, I'm so glad that we are where we're at at the moment. Do you feel stronger? I do. Do you feel you have more resources to use when times get tough again? I do.
It is such a battle because I wonder if I will backslide again and I don't know what causes it. Is it PMS, is it hormones, what, what is it. Now that I am so much more aware and have made these startling revelations and realisations, when that dreaded old whatever it is tries to take over I'm just going to tell it to move on right along because I don't want to listen.
MaryBB. I said those words and I meant them. I look at my H now and I love him so much because of what he's been through. I realise that he is a worthwhile person and he is strong in certain areas but I couldn't see it because I was looking at the ways I would have been strong if I were him. Unfortunately he didn't have strength in the areas that he needed to when OW came along. At that time he felt he had "lost" me because of certain circumstances which had gone on for quite some time and was desperately in need of someone to love him and care for him.
Sonia, I agree with what you say about accepting the things that H does do even though they're not the things you would wish he does. It's a tradeoff really. At least they're doing something. The changes in my H have been remarkable over the past week and I am finding it easier to let him be and not try to work him out. The pressure is off and he feels more at ease. I am praying that the other things I would like him to do will fall into place further down the track - like communicating with me and telling me how he feels. I think once you take the pressure off it's easier to feel compassion, easier to give instead of waiting for them to give, easier to understand and easier to give compliments.
John's wife. I know the sadness you are feeling. When I was in my "downtime" I would allow myself to wallow in self pity and martyrdom by asking how he could have done this to me blah blah blah.(I'm not saying that's what you are or that's what you are doing). Once I faced up to the fact that I was trying to make myself into a martyr I realised that I couldn't keep doing this to myself. It wasn't fixing anything, no-one was taking any notice, going over and over things didn't help, it wasn't good for my health - I just had to get off my butt and stop wondering what he was doing, and thinking and not doing etc etc. and stop trying to fix things.
No-one can tell you what he is thinking and the more desperate you become to know what goes on inside that head, the more your head will spin trying to work it out. You will go round and round in circles and that's a waste of time. There is so much more you could be doing for yourself that gives you some enjoyment out of life. You just have to accept it and move on. It takes a lot of courage to accept something like this and move on and I don't know why we like to torture ourselves but we do.
I haven't read the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus but what you have quoted sounds very real to me. THEY ARE DIFFERENT FROM US. We look at what they do from our perspective. We get suspicious because we are looking at the situation from where we stand, because that's how we think and that's what we would do……BUT WE AREN'T THEM AND THEY AREN'T US. When we give ourselves some space and step back we can see so much more and this helps us to understand even more.
My H and I went away for the weekend. When we were due to leave the resort the car wouldn't start. My A grade mechanic H did fix it after a little while and as we were driving along we started discussing ways to get ourselves a new vehicle. To cut a long story short, I commented how far we had come in our recovery and he then made a comment that I didn't understand. When I asked him what he meant, he said he was frightened that this new incident (having to do MORE repairs to the car) would send us spiralling backwards again. I once and for all understood how acutely he felt the trials of our journey and that he was with me all the way - I wasn't doing this alone. Because of OW, H stepped down from his Managers job which meant we weren't earning as much money. Everything seemed to be piling up on us and he was linking one bad thing to another. He felt he was at fault for everything and that this car thing was just something else that was going to push us back to square one again.
I felt so deeply for him at this point that I could honestly tell him from my heart not to worry, that I wouldn't let this push us backwards, that we would continue to move forwards and that we could separate his A from other things that were happening to us and deal with them like we should.
RonMom. This is a trust issue for you even though you don't realise it. You have to trust in yourself. You have to build trust in yourself that you can do what you want to do. I know the devastation you feel. Whatever will be will be and however the future works out for you (and I know this won't mean much to you at the moment) you will survive and be a stronger person for it. At the moment just do what you think is right, what you feel you have to do for yourself but try, try, try to be the best DB'er you can. I know it's tough and I know how much strength you need for this and that you will have to muster so much energy to do one little thing that it will make you want to curl up in a ball and go to sleep. If it's meant to work out it will. If not, it's for a reason - not that you'll see that now or want to see or understand it now - but it's true. At the moment you have to ride out the really rough bits and unfortunately we are alone on this one. Even though we have the support of each other on this forum, untimately we have to do this by ourselves. I've been there and done it and I know what you are going through.
I agree with you completely. Everything you said is so true!