Another newbie with a problem - long story

[Stormchaser]

Hello, I am a long time lurker and have read some good posts here - however, I think I may need a little advice in my particular situation. Here goes.

I have been with the same woman over 20 years. I am 44, she is 40. We have two D, 16 and 7. Like others on this board, from the outside things are fine - we're known as the "cute couple" that gets along fine, shows public displays of affection and generally gets along fine. However, when we're alone, its a different story.

My W has no problem with our sex life. If it was up to her, we'd never have sex. Right now, its once every two to three weeks (when I initiate). It hasn't always been like this, I can pinpoint exactly when this started: When she began her new job about three years ago. At first, it was part time. She was excited to work there, she developed lots of friendships and the people there accepted her and valued her work ethic. I was extremely proud of her for taking this huge step; its something she wanted to do and now is doing it and being paid for it. At the time, I really didn't put much emphasis on our sex life, she really wanted to impress her bosses and focus on maybe working her way up through the ranks.

As time went on, she did very well and started to move up. I started to make light of the situation, saying, "whoa, this job is taking you away from me" - she even agreed, saying that her new responsibilities are very challenging - so every weekend we would go out with her coworkers, down a few, do some dancing - it was a nice connection afterwards, but then I began to notice a pattern. The pattern was she would be buzzed for sex. Now, most guys probably wouldn't care, alcohol does loosen your inhibitions a bit and its nice to get crazy and release. But this was happening every time we went out. Initially I looked forward to it, hell, actually even encouraged it. I would be the designated driver and she would have a few glasses of wine and we'd have some wild times. But this one time she got incredibly sloppy drunk and it completely turned me off. She was arrogant, ignorant, and pretty damn mean. We fought that night, and if you've ever fought with a drunk, you know its a lost cause. She woke up hungover the next day not remembering anything - I told her what happened, and she was genuinely sorry, we talked about it and she promised to never get that way again. And she hasn't.

However, as time went on, the pattern stayed the same. We'd go out, she'd have a glass or two of wine or beer. Eventually, I started tiring of this and told her that I'm beginning to feel hurt, that I feel that she needs to have a few beers to want me. She basically said, "look, it's nice to loosen up, its not that I need the beer, its the atmosphere of being with you, my friends - I'm thankful I have a husband that likes to come out with me and the gang, please don't read too much into this".

But it still bothered me. Sex was ALWAYS when we went out, there was no inbetween fun, no early morning quickies, no afternoon delights. Its not through lack of trying, either. When I would initiate, there would always be something - the bed is squeaking, the kids might hear, you need to shave, did you brush you teeth....even when I got all prepped, shaved, showered, shined, she wouldn't want to do it, or would find something wrong while we were doing it (that tickles, her leg is cramping), it would get frustrating.

I wound up sitting her down and having a serious talk about it. She started to get INCREDIBLY defensive when I would bring it up, that I'm feeling undesired, unwanted and that I think going out with the gang isn't fun anymore. That I'm concerned because if we go out by ourselves on date nights, we do have a good time but ZERO happens when we get home, yet when we're in the party atmosphere (with friends and coworkers), she's in a good mood and only then is she horny. How I'm getting older and really don't like staying out late anymore, I'm more the early bird and like going to bed early. She immediately went off, dropping all these points on my lap:

1) She works an odd 12-7 shift. She says when she gets home, she sees me having a beer ALL THE TIME. How dare I question her when I show the same signs. Hypocritical.

2) That maybe once in a while I would do something romantic for HER, that she's not a light bulb and doesn't turn on immediately. That she needs that romantic buildup for her to be receptive.

3) That maybe I would spend more quality time with the kids, as being a good parent is a big issue in her book.

4) That I need to "man up" and stop being such a crybaby about the sex life. It is what it is.

So I gave it some thought and responded to each of her points rationally (or so I thought)

1) Ok, I can see how that would turn you off - even though its a light beer, I'll stop and just have soda or something else

2) Please tell me what other "romantic" gestures I can do for you that would make me more desirable in your eyes. I thought that bringing home flowers every Friday, taking us out collectively and individually to dinner and sending texts/emails saying that I miss you, and telling you how nice you look in your new clothes/hairstyle were nice romantic gestures. Is there something else that I'm overlooking that you can help me with?

3) I thought that cooking them dinner, helping with homework and playing video games with the kids was quality time, but maybe its not in your eyes, so what else do you think I should do? What is your definition of quality time?

4) Not acceptable.

I know this sounds like I went back on the defensive mode, but to understand my wife, nothing is ever her fault. She has this magic way of dereflecting every thing back onto the other person (I've seen her in action with her sister).

Anyway, what usually winds up happening after these arguments is......nothing. It always blows over, there may be some reciprocation on her part afterwards, but eventually it winds up back to normal and I sit and fester.

We had a similiar fight AGAIN this weekend and I'm still numb from it. This time she told me to "get it elsewhere" which really pissed me off, but I know it was said out of anger. I think that she thinks its going to follow that same pattern, we'll kinda be distant, but eventually start talking about other things and this will be brushed under the carpet. Unfortunately, this upcoming weekend is her company xmas party and I have no want to go. I know exactly what will happen; she'll have a few glasses of wine, she'll want to go out after the party to some other club, dance it up and have a good time. Nothing wrong with that at all, but I just wish she'd have the desire and lust without the alcohol.

I've talked to some people who believe she's an alcoholic - I really don't think thats the case, she does limit herself to a few social drinks only. The one time she got hungover was a lesson learned, she wound up being sick that entire day and she doesn't want to abuse her body like that again. We've gone out and asked her if she could enjoy the night without anything to drink, but I get told to "not lecture her" and that "the problem is my perception, not her having a few drinks" and that I'm "over-reacting".

Y'know, as I go over this reading, it does sound kind of "whiny". I've been known to be a classic nice guy, doing all kids of covert contracts (laundry, house cleaning, stuff like that). I have the book No More Mr Nice Guy and have gotten a lot from it and have done a lot of the exercises - confronting my wife openly and honestly about how I feel was one thing I was always scared to do. But its like I'm just tired of hiding and being scared of her and worrying about whether she'll leave me or not if I keep confronting her about the lack of desire.

And there is a part of me that really thinks I'm overanalyzing and should just shut up and be grateful for what I do have. She is a great mother, we have a good time together otherwise, we talk on the phone daily, she's a great friend to others and a fantastic cook. She can easily pass for 25, has a great figure and can put Christie Brinkley to shame with her looks. I'm just very lost right now...especially this time of year, when we should be concentrating on the joys of the holidays. Its making me pretty depressed.

As for any ideas of cheating, I haven't found anything. Cell phone records are clean, all numbers are recognized. Her work email is strictly that, its all work related. She's not real computer literate, I've checked histories and everything is pretty normal. Although one thing I've found is she does spend a lot of time her girlfriends - I could suspect a possible lesbian relationship, but I'm not sold on that one.

I remember times many years ago when we'd go out to xmas parties at her other employers, we'd have such a great time. Back then, we were so sexually active, it wasn't funny. I can remember so many times she'd seduce me, walking in on me while I was doing some work on the computer, wearing nothing but a pair of stockings and a smile. Or calling me up asking if I was in the neighborhood, to see if I wanted "lunch". Or surprising me with a treat while I was driving, no questions asked. I'd like to think that kept our marriage alive and intact. Just thinking about those times really brings me down, thinking of how great it was, and how its absent now.

Thoughts? Advice?

[CharlieBrown]

Storm,

I wish I had great advice for you, but I don't. It sounds like you are already doing pretty well as of late.

My wife is similar in that, unless she has had a few glasses of wine, nothing is going to happen that night. I can't remember the last time we had sex completely sober. I know exactly where you are coming from on this and to be honest, I have been willing to accept this rather than fight it. I admire you for trying to resolve it.

Sorry I don't have anything more helpful, but I wanted to let you know I feel your pain.

PF

[chromosphere]

"2) Please tell me what other "romantic" gestures I can do for you that would make me more desirable in your eyes."

Generally, a statement like that is not going to produce the response that you want.

I think you would be better coming up with romantic guestures on your own rather than getting ideas from her. Of course you can try to glean clues by "watching" her closely. And the romantic guestures need to be just that, not payment in advance for sex.

Also, she needs to find her own sexuality, not depend on your behavior to give it to her.

Chrome

[Stormchaser]

"2) Please tell me what other "romantic" gestures I can do for you that would make me more desirable in your eyes."

Generally, a statement like that is not going to produce the response that you want.

Much like her comment to "get it elsewhere", this comment was made out of anger.

I think you would be better coming up with romantic gestures on your own rather than getting ideas from her. Of course you can try to glean clues by "watching" her closely. And the romantic gestures need to be just that, not payment in advance for sex.

What I took offense to was the fact that I'm generally a romantic person, at least I thought I was. I would really like to know what "romantic ideas" are in her book, because we're obviously miles apart.

Also, she needs to find her own sexuality, not depend on your behavior to give it to her.

Chrome

Question: What if she doesn't want (or care) to find it?

[Stormchaser]

Storm,

I wish I had great advice for you, but I don't. It sounds like you are already doing pretty well as of late.

My wife is similar in that, unless she has had a few glasses of wine, nothing is going to happen that night. I can't remember the last time we had sex completely sober. I know exactly where you are coming from on this and to be honest, I have been willing to accept this rather than fight it. I admire you for trying to resolve it.

Sorry I don't have anything more helpful, but I wanted to let you know I feel your pain.

PF

Thanks, PF. I think the last time we had sober sex was a morning quickie about three months ago.

I mean, how do you accept/handle this? What do YOU do for release? Quite frankly, to quote the Greenday song, masturbation has lost its fun.

[CharlieBrown]

Storm,

Good question. I really need to take some time and post my sitch to help provide perspective.

Part of the answer is that my wife and I share a love of fine wine. We have been to different wine country regions in the US 3 or 4 times over the years, love trying and appreciating the nuances of wine, maintain a decent cellar, etc. As a result, finding an excuse to split a bottle of wine is usually not an issue. That being said, I would like to experience more than a quickie with us both being sober, just to mix it up once an a while.

As for how do I cope? One, I still basically take it as I can get it and don't turn down sex often. Two, while I know the Green Day song, for me it may have lost its fun, but it hasn't lost its usefulness once or twice a month.

I will try to post more tonight or tomorrow.

PF

[chromosphere]

Much like her comment to "get it elsewhere", this comment was made out of anger.

Ah, I misunderstood the context.

What I took offense to was the fact that I'm generally a romantic person, at least I thought I was. I would really like to know what "romantic ideas" are in her book, because we're obviously miles apart.

I think is is generally a good idea to try to make guestures that you know will be accepted, but she does have a responsibility to be at least civil to you and respectful of the actions you do make toward her.

Why would you want to be romantic to someone who is uncourteous toward your previous efforts?

Question: What if she doesn't want (or care) to find it?

Let me throw it back at you ... what would you do if you knew that she would never try to work with you to fix this situation?

Chrome

[Stormchaser]

Let me throw it back at you ... what would you do if you knew that she would never try to work with you to fix this situation?

Chrome

Thats a difficult question and the reason why I'm here.

The positives are the kids, the house, everything we've built up to until now. The memories of 20 years. Its as if the positives far outweigh the negatives - yet its that one negative that stands out like a spotlight.

I've read a poll on here somewhere where someone asked could you have a relationship without sex - the overwhelming answer was no.

[chromosphere]

Thats a difficult question and the reason why I'm here.

Yes it is. And I think (I could be wrong) that until you decide what your answer is to that question, your W won't have to decide whether she wants to do what is necessary to make a good marriage.

I've read a poll on here somewhere where someone asked could you have a relationship without sex - the overwhelming answer was no.

Just to nitpick ... replace 'relationship' with 'marriage.'

And the most important answer is not what anyone else would do, but what would you do. The hardest thing any of us have to do is stand and face ourselves and decide what it is that we want out of life, and what it is we are willing to live without. And this is one of those things that must be done alone, just like dying. People can give you advice, perhaps help you make up your mind with witty observations, but at some point you have to look into your soul and decide. Until you do, others can abuse you for your indecision.

Chrome

[Stormchaser]

Yes it is. And I think (I could be wrong) that until you decide what your answer is to that question, your W won't have to decide whether she wants to do what is necessary to make a good marriage.

..as evidenced by the fact that I don't follow up with these arguments we have. I'm showing that its ok for it blow over, that it doesn't matter to me, when in reality it is VERY IMPORTANT to me.

And the most important answer is not what anyone else would do, but what would you do. The hardest thing any of us have to do is stand and face ourselves and decide what it is that we want out of life, and what it is we are willing to live without. And this is one of those things that must be done alone, just like dying. People can give you advice, perhaps help you make up your mind with witty observations, but at some point you have to look into your soul and decide. Until you do, others can abuse you for your indecision.

Chrome

Yup, being wishy washy isn't helping me here. I do have to admit, I've come a long way in the last year. This is something I'd rarely discuss with her before, or if I'd bring it up, it would be like, "you don't love me, you don't care for me, blah, blah". Substituted the "you" for "I feel" and have lost some fear of what her reaction would be.

But - one fear is that I draw a line in the sand - and she says, "ok, well, do what you have to do".