why the denial????

[grasshopper]

Ok Ben, here goes...and I will try to not be harsh if I can.

You have been told be many people that it's not about you, or really, your perception of what "us" is. It's all about her and HER perception right now and all these things you keep doing to invalidate her perception are not helping.

As for the condom present, that, to me, underscores that she may be VERY right about some of the things she thinks about you. I don't say that to be mean, but to try to get you to stop thinking that this is something you can fix by using guilt, hard line tactics (keeping the kids from her) or just "willing" it to be different.

What you really need to understand, and I know how hard this is, is that your marriage is over, or at least your marriage as you knew it. The sooner you get that, the better you'll be. Getting that is the difference between fighting to save something that was rotten to begin with and fighting to create something entirely new, starting with yourself and building out.

If you continue to deny the existence of her perception of you, your marriage, your overall situation, your behavior, etc, you will probably not do very well with DB. If you fail to understand that she is her own woman, insane or not (better NOT to take the approach that she must be insane), and she is NOT bound to you or your marriage by a piece of paper, vows, history, kids, your feelings, or anything else. She's figured out that "Hey, if I want to, I can just walk away, and more than that, I may be able to find something...well, I may ALREADY have found something better than Ben..." and she's taking action.

Ok, that's pretty bleak, but here's the good news. You DO have history, not all of which is negative as she'd have you believe, but all this jealousy and bad behavior, justified or not, from you is not doing a damn thing to highlight those "good" times you shared, or the good parts of you that you believe she just HAS to acknowledge (trust me, I know how that feels).

I can't say that your wife will have a change of heart if today you started on a campaign of detachment from her actions/words, self discovery/growth, unconditional love (especially for YOU), and realize that you can't "fix" this as much as you can fix you. What I can say is that it's very likely that she won't have one any time soon if you keep this pursuit/gift giving/jealous public embarrassment up.

Here's the cold/hard bottom line. Your W may leave you no matter what you do or say. You could go into a phone booth and emerge as Superman and she may still see Lex as the better choice. That's why the best thing for you to do is to still go into the booth, become Superman and start by being a hero to your kids and then to yourself. You have nothing to lose. Your marriage, as you knew it, is dead. Start building your life around the idea that by being the best Ben you can be, and the best dad, you stand a great chance of at least getting her attention, if not make progress toward the goal you so desperately want; to save your marriage.

I know you love your W deeply. If not, you wouldn't be here. I also know you've probably heard "If you love her, let her go and if she comes back..." just about one too many times so I'll spin it this way. You don't necessarily need to let go of her, but in order to actually see your goal realized, you may have to let go of your goal to save your marriage for now and work on saving yourself. Without a positive face on your efforts, you are only adding fuel to her fire to leave.

Look man, I KNOW how hard this is and I really think you can do it. Just remember this one thing that has helped me SO much in my efforts; Judge EACH of your actions in relation to her by this simple idea. Will whatever you are about to do help the overall sitch? I don't mean will it make you feel better, or get her to see something you are sure she doesn't see now (BTW, trust me, she sees, she just doesn't care much right now). Will it REALLY help? If not, DON'T DO IT!

I do wish you luck and I will keep up with you. Please try to get positive. It's the first step to real progress.

GH

[whatisis]

Right on, GH. I think your words should be taken to heart by all of us, not just Benwa.
Quote
she is NOT bound to you or your marriage by a piece of paper, vows, history, kids, your feelings, or anything else.
We often can't get by our feelings about that piece of paper, vows etc. "She's supposed to love me and that is that". Then we have our little tantrums e.g. sending your W condoms! Your words hit home for me GH. My M, as I know it, IS over. It's time to build something new that hopefully my S will want to buy into. I hope that you, Benwa, can swallow this too. Thanks GH.

[Davidanton13]

Grasshopper, well said...I try to formulate my actions this way...but I do fail sometimes. Like last night. But today, I'm getting back on the wagon...thanks for the encouragement.

[Davidanton13]

Benwa, I feel your pain...hang in there. All this B.S. about how the kids will be fine...mine aren't...they hate "us" for breaking them up...they don't want the divorce and have been quite vocal (they are 13/soon 14 and 16). They are always in denial...they even got her to say she would cancel the divorce. She even told the kids she had...then two days late said she'd lied...that she'd never called her attorney to call it off. Bizarre...

[benwa]

Well I do understand how it is and I know it was a mistake to give the gift at work. or at all. Now can you tell me what my wife perception of me is because that is something I would like to know. She says that i am a great husband and has nothing wrong with me. Yet she just wants to be my friend. The history is where it belongs. My life is where I am now. The gift was not supposed to be anything cruel, I just wanted her to be safe for her sake for my kids sake. I am taking care of me. I am taking care of my children. I just want her to take care of her. If she fids that I am not the one fine. I can live with that, i am living with that. I am here though because I feel that there is more at stake here than my marriage. I think that my children deserve better than this. They deserve their parents to be part of a loving family unit that they have grown up used to. i think they need to see the value of marriage and that love is something worth fighting for. If I was being selfish and jealous, I would be as gone as my wife. I wouldn't let her have the time she needed because she would have the kids the lion's share of the time not the opposite. I do thank you for the heartfelt response. Its the reason I am on here to see that I am not crazy trying to climb this mountain alone. Unfortunately I slipped on the way up. I am sure that many have slipped there also. I am still climbing though. And you can't tell me that waiting for her to come around isn't the hardest thing a loving husband will ever do. I think it is but I carry that load with passion and love. Lets keep this journey up together, friends. God Bless

[grasshopper]

Now can you tell me what my wife perception of me is because that is something I would like to know.

I can't tell you that any more than you already know if you go back and listen to what she's told you. Somewhere her impression of you changed from "man I want to love, make love to every night and take trips together with when we get old" to "Great dad and nice guy". That ain't all bad but at some point many people, especially women, seem to wake up one day, find the passion missing in their R and start wondering if something is wrong. From there they may start interpreting things differently and then the slippery slide has started.

I am not saying her perception of you is that you are horrible or not a good dad or even that you are not attractive to her, but for some reason her perception is such that in her mind there is nothing much holding her to the marriage.

You shouldn't really live your life trying to figure this stuff out but realize that as much as you cherish being a great dad and a good friend to your W, she wants and needs more these days, right or wrong. If your sitch is anything like mine and countless others around here, you may struggle with how to change the dynamic and I sympathize with you because that's the hard part, and not coincidentally, what DB is all about.

The history is where it belongs. My life is where I am now.

Well, yes and no. History, the history YOU remember is important because it not only shapes your perception (the one that is so radically different from hers right now) but it also can help you understand a lot about yourself, especially in relation to your W. I think a lot about our history and the more I do, the more OBJECTIVELY I do, the more I see that my perception was as "off" as I think my W's is. Where she sees almost nothing but bad, I saw nothing but good. The truth is somewhere inbetween but I now believe it to be more on the "bad" side than I ever realized and THAT has helped me understand a lot about what I want my life to be, with or without my W. Looking at our history has taught me many things about who I thought I was, who I really was and who I want to be.

So, don't discount history just because it's either painful or seems to be irrelevant. Then again, as you said, life IS where we are now, just don't allow it to be a replay of how life was before.

The gift was not supposed to be anything cruel, I just wanted her to be safe for her sake for my kids sake.

If you are talking about the condoms, sorry, I don't believe you. That was a spiteful, jealous thing to do.

If you are talking about the picture, well, I think your motives were right but unfortunately, as I said, her perspective is different and I would guess that anything you give her that even SEEMS like a "Hey look at how GREAT things were before you turned into a complete b!tch and ruined our life" gife will not really be well received.

Remember, she is trying her best to paint the past as evil and YOU as a clingy, needy, man hell-bent on keeping her. She sees you as trying to use anything in your power to sway her, most of all the past "good" times that she can't quite understand your perspective on.

It royally sucks but it goes a little like this. She FEELS your marriage and maybe even YOU are not worth sticking around for and she has her reasons, which to her, are 100% valid. You on the other hand feel the opposite and are thus are trying to prove her wrong at every turn, or so she thinks. You are invalidating her and making yourself the enemy, not what you want to be. The hard part is to learn to not be the enemy while still not condoning/enabling her affair. It's a tough road, fine line and all that happy $hit but walking that path is what we are all here to learn to do.

If she fids that I am not the one fine. I can live with that, i am living with that.

If you really believe that, can really look inside yourself and be "fine" then fine, but I suspect you struggle just like the rest of us do and are just about anything but fine. It's ok not to be fine but trying to convince yourself you are can undermine your true need to heal and grow before you can be truly ok.

Again, you may very well be fine, and if so, that is really good because it's a tough place to get to from where you started from. If not, then make sure you are not denying your true feelings just to put a happy face on the sitch.

I am taking care of me. I am taking care of my children.

Good. This is most important.

I am here though because I feel that there is more at stake here than my marriage. I think that my children deserve better than this. They deserve their parents to be part of a loving family unit that they have grown up used to. i think they need to see the value of marriage and that love is something worth fighting for.

You are 100% right but temper this thought with the idea that your W now knows the deep, dark secret of life, and that is that we all deserve happiness and if your marriage is not something that can afford BOTH of you that, then it's time to look at changing it, or getting rid of it. It's harsh, but true, and, in fact, something you too should have learned by now. Just "getting by" in a marriage so the kids can have a good home, etc, only works for awhile and usually works better for one partner than the other. Eventually there has to be something more, or at least there does if one or both of you are unhappy.

If I was being selfish and jealous, I would be as gone as my wife.

In your mind, your world, yes, this is true. In your W's mind and her world, holding on to her is selfish and jealous. That's not to say you should stop fighting but starting to understand the sometimes absurdly opposite way your W may view your actions/words is paramount to understanding some of the things that help and hurt your sitch.

I wouldn't let her have the time she needed because she would have the kids the lion's share of the time not the opposite.

Again, the fine line we all walk. I think you are doing a lot of the right things, like honoring her request for "time" but at the same time you are not honoring other things. It's not that she's right in wanting what she wants, or that you are wrong in either giving it to her or not.

At this point I will repeat something I have said in the past, and something I try to remember as much as I can; in a relationship between two people, especially a marriage, there is very little right and wrong. There are only two perspectives and if we can learn to accept that, learn to accept not being "right" and them not being "wrong" so much, we can learn to live a happier life with our spouse.

Unfortunately I slipped on the way up. I am sure that many have slipped there also. I am still climbing though.

We ALL have slipped MANY, MANY times. Don't sweat it at all.

And you can't tell me that waiting for her to come around isn't the hardest thing a loving husband will ever do. I think it is but I carry that load with passion and love.

It most certainly IS the hardest thing ANY of us will likely ever do but indeed it's something that, if successful, can bring the passion and love back to our lives in a way we never before felt. I believe this with all my heart.

Keep up the fight.

GH

[benwa]

Well lets update this thing. I have had a pretty quiet time with my W this week. She called me a lot last Friday trying to see what i was doing and when i was doing it this weekend. She wanted us to go out on opposite days "for the kids". My mother took care of them so we both went out on Saturday. I think she was worried about bumping into me. I let her worry and had me a good time because yesterday was my birthday. I got to see Jimmie Vaughan play in a club here with around 150 other people. It was so rockin! Of course the blues spoke to me last night like they never had before All and all a good weekend. Yesterday my W called to wish me a happy B day and talked and talked about nothing. I don't understand these conversations. I get the impression she is waiting for me to say something but I don't elaborate on anything I do. And I don't talk about the R or the OM I just let her talk. Yet she goes on and on. Does anyone have a suggestion on what i should do? I want to hope that she is waiting for me to ask for her back but I would think she would just tell me she wants to try again. I think that because she has been empowered by this. In her mind she is calling the shots and well I just let her go. Should I reach out to her yet?

[whatisis]

I think asking her back right now would be a mistake but...what the hell do I know! If I was so damn smart would I be here in the first place? It just seems that you need to turn off the pursuit mode for a while. Keep up your contact and friendship (I know that sucks!) and do some serious DBing here. At some point you may let her know that you remain open to her returning but you are leaving it up to her, with no pressure to decide if she ever wants that. Be careful with this. I wrote my W a letter shortly after she dropped the bomb on me. I outlined my feelings for her, what I pictured for our R in the future if she ever wanted it. I put it all out on the table and have left it there ever since. She knows where I stand and I'll bet your W does to. Be the tortoise and enjoy the slow lane for a bit.

[grasshopper]

Ben, do you have any thoughts on my monster post?

GH

[benwa]

I think a lot of what you say is understandable. I feel the article "Childrens side of Divorce" tell me a lot about why I should work on this marriage instead of walking away. I still wonder about the length of time that i let my W go. She call me a lot she talks a lot when she calls and she seems to want to say something but holds back. Maybe I am putting too much into the calls but I am still thinking small. I do agree about the jealousy. It's so hard to think of her going to another man. It's hard to be called selfish and be told to "grow up" by her and her friends. It's hard to not have someone to hold and kiss and love. Now what do you think of her spending more time on the phone talking about nothing? I mean calling about the kids and just talking about her day or her family or just being on the phone asking me questions about trivial stuff. On my birthday it felt like she didn't want to get off the phone and i said i had to go. Should I still let it be? Thats the advise others give me but I feel like I should ask her where we are going and where the talks about divorce went. I am so torn. Well let me know what you feel grasshopper or anyone else with two cents