Lunch with a friend is ok, as long as both of you know this is a friendship only. I do still think it's playing with fire to discuss your M difficulties with a friend of the opposite sex...but won't chew you out about it, I'll just leave it at that.
$15 dollars is not an extravagant amount to spend on lunch every now and then. Your W needs to realize, you don't do this on a regular basis and just because you have kids and bills doesn't mean that you must give up EVERYTHING all of the time. Little splurges here and there are fine, you work hard for your money and are entitled to spend a little extra or spoil yourself just a bit when you wish, it's not like you do it all of the time...just like your planned celebration dinner the other night, it was a rare occasion.
Quote: I do still think it's playing with fire to discuss your M difficulties with a friend of the opposite sex
I agree it's playing with fire, but here, let me hand you this match and this can of gasoline. I don't see any diff between sharing with a friend and posting here. Anyway, what you have been doing, namely placating your W, has not been working. You do the chores, you go to therapy, you invited her into the candlelit hot tub-- I think your new policy of transparency is refreshing, bold, inspiring, and she needs to have her apple cart tipped over. You've catered, kowtowed, and quaked before her for too damm long, and besides, where has it gotten you? Time to step waaaay outside the comfort zone... but you know what? I predict YOU will be MORE comfortable out there.
BTW, I totally agree that men and women can be friends without sexuality becoming a problem or an issue.
Really? Y'all believe that a man and woman can unequivocally be friends?
Never say never, I say.
As an HD woman, there are just too many HD men in the world for me to test this theory extensively. That, and I like women. I like men too, but I usually end up thinking something inappropriate somewhere along the line. I have not intentionally cut male friends out of my life--it's just sorta happened with my current job--but I would NOT seek them out either. Too risky! I think if there is a male/female friendship, there'd better be an LD person in there or it runs the risk of spontaneous combustion.
Hairy, I heard a blast last night right after dinner. Hope you made out okay. LOL
Yes, it has been my experience that I can be friends with men in given situations without even the temptation of sexual involvement. And even if there is a sexual buzz, you don't have to act on it, in fact, both of you can know it's there and decide not to act on it, and that can make the friendship stronger. And I belive this can hold true whether each or both is married or single. It's a decision.
I've probably posted this somewhere else, but this is why no outsider can go in and "break up" a marriage unless the soon-to-be-straying partner is already looking. There has to be a fissure, a crack, in the marital shield, if you will, in order for an outsider to even make an impression.
In my younger less enlightened days I did sometimes see a married guy who looked appealing and I would put out non-physical feelers-- you know, looks, comments... a guy (and I'm sure this goes for a woman, too) who's in a troubled situation will respond in some way. A totally committed person will present a totally teflon front that your advances will just slide off of. When you look at them and attempt to "connect," all you will see in their eyes is friendship. I had this experience plenty of times. (And a few times, I didn't.)
I realize on this board we have troubled people in troubled marriages. THAT'S what makes you vulnerable. A person who is vulnerable to straying is already looking over his/her partner's shoulder. That has been my EXPERIENCE-- not a supposition or a theory on my part.
But even two single people, male and female, aren't automatically going to have some kind of sexual relationship. This seems absurd to me-- not every man is going to find every woman attractive and vice versa.
It's also possible that I'm something of an anomaly, and that in given situations I choose not to give out any sexual vibe at all. I worked for a few years doing therapeutic massage-- yes I was trained and registered with the state. I only had a couple of customers proposition me and then in the most oblique way. I set a very firm boundary during the sessions with my attitude, my comments, my way of touching, and no one made any real move to cross it.
I think the same thing can happen in the regular world. A man and a woman can set a boundary and simply decide not to test it or cross it. Now if one feels they will be constantly tempted to cross the boundary they set for themselves, that's another matter. And that speaks of trouble at home. JMPO.
I wonder about this too Honeypot. I bet the trend would be that HD people think men and women can't be "just" friends and LD people think the opposite. My H (LD) works with ALL women, (he is the only man in the office). This bothers me but he says he does not see them anymore than coworkers/friends. Hmph. Now myself as a HD I always see men in a sexual way (to a degree) That's my nature. I don't have any male friends that are just "my" friends. We have couple friends and I would consider those men my friends but it's different. I rarely see them outside a couple's situation. Still, I may think of those men in a sexual way ("wonder what he's like in bed") that sort of thing. I feel a little guilty considering their W may be right there but I have a hard time stopping myself. I'm hopeless
My wife came across the receipt for my $15 lunch with N. She asked me about it, and I told her what it was. She tore up the paper, threw it on the floor, and said, "this is what I think about that." Followed by a one hour tirade that alternately focused on what a selfish ba$tard I am, how she needs to get away from me, how stupid I am, why didn't I check with her before spending this money, how I am going to bankrupt her, what a bimbo N is, did she give me a BJ for the $15, how she's going to draw up the divorce papers, and...that was just the first two minutes.
She said I was so selfish to be spending HER money, essentially taking food out of the mouths of my wife and kids to feed myself at a lavish restaurant with my "girlfriend."
I kept coming back to the facts, which are that I have known N for about 15 years, and the occasion was her birthday, and there is nothing illicit about our friendship.
Then she would focus on the money issue, which is that we have a budget, that it is a monthly budget, and that we are $44 in the whole on the "food and groceries" line item. She says I should have known that, and, if I didn't have time to check the budget, I should have called her in advance and asked her.
She's pretty obsessive about this budget, and it's not all in all a bad thing, but it's become some sort of sacred icon, with which one does not trifle. However, it is very important to her, so I apologized for spending $15 over the food budget.
But that wasn't enough. She began talking about how we were going to go bankrupt, we had so much debt, we weren't going to be able to afford college for the kids ("your" kids, she said). She had just written a check for my health club membership: $170 annually. I took the check out of my wallet and tore it up. "Here, now we have $170 more." At which point she said, "Great. You'll give up your health for N."
H: No, I'll give up my health club membership for our kids' music lessons, college, etc. I'll just get out and walk during my lunch.
But there was no reasoning to be done last night. She took away my glass of wine because she said she had bought the wine with her money.
Bear with me here, folks. Inner dialogue coming up, and I'm putting it down here as more of a need to archive it, then for anything else.
You see, all of HER money goes to pay the debts I created, and stuff for MY kids. MY money is barely enough for day to day expenses. Every time I go out with my "girlfriend," she (my wife) has to work that many more hours to pay for it, since I am on a fixed salary. Every cent I spend is one cent less available to pay down our debt. And so on.
So, this morning, I started to think. Okay, Hairdog, you're not that great with money, but what was that feeling you had when she mentioned the amount of debt you were in? Oh yeah, astonishment. Hairdog, how much debt did you run up before you married her, and never really told her about until about 2001? Ummm, about x thousand. And when she took over control, she put that x thousand on a no-interest credit card and you started giving her x hundred dollars every two weeks out of your paycheck to pay it down. And you paid it down and paid it off, right? Yep. So, when she moved to KC, and you took over paying the bills, you screwed up again. Right. You were having trouble keeping up with some expenses because she had just opened her law firm, and didn't have much money coming in from her, and, instead of telling her that you both needed to stop spending money, you tried to fix it, and kept the problem a secret from her for about three months, and then she found out and was pissed and took over the finances. Okay, right.
So why is all of the debt you're in now, solely your fault?
Uh. I dunno. Because she says so, and she's the financial whiz? Think again, Einstein.
Remember when she "misread" the tax law about adoption credits and had to pay a lot more in taxes than she thought? Oh yeah. It was like $13,000 more! Right. And remember when she made more money last year than she thought she would and SHE remembers telling you to change the amount of your withholding, but you neither remember her telling you, nor did you change the withholding? Yeah, that ended up being over $20,000 we owed the IRS. And remember when you got the home equity loan to pay off the IRS and her car loan and part of the credit card bills? Yeah. Those credit card bills you just realized you should have been exonerated for? Hmmm.
Now, I'm not saying that I'm not responsible for any of the debt. I most certainly am responsible for my share of the income tax. But I'm not responsible for the miscalculation that resulted in a huge tax burden two years ago. And, because I can't recall her telling me to change my withholding, I can't say that I'm at totally at fault for the recent income tax liability. Even if she did tell me to withhold and I promptly forgot, it's not like I "ran up debt." I gave her all the money from my paycheck...it went right into her account. We both spent that money. It was a tax owed on our combined income, so I'm not solely responsible.
Heck, she taught tax and business stuff, and it was understood from the git go that she would handle all the taxes.
No, I don't think she's a spendthrift. I don't think she's a wild spender at all. I do think that she refuses to take the blame for anything, and since she can point to some early blunders of mine and conveniently insert them into our current situation, she can still avoid any blame. Because I am, in this area at least, a very trusting person. People start talking numbers and, usually, my eyes glaze over. Thanks to the clarifying powers of the morning shower (and Adderall XR), things aren't as obvious as they were last night, with me being the wreckless spender, and her, the virgin saint of the purse.
Even though this whole deal doesn't have a lot to do with libidos, I still call "long-term-board-member privilege" to be able to put it all down here.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions and sledgehammers upside my head welcome.
Quote: Then she would focus on the money issue, which is that we have a budget, that it is a monthly budget, and that we are $44 in the whole on the "food and groceries" line item. She says I should have known that, and, if I didn't have time to check the budget, I should have called her in advance and asked her.
Who buys the groceries?
I would immediately remove any alcoholic beverages from the shopping list. No wine. If the food budget is that close, spending any money on wine is a waste.
Quote: But that wasn't enough. She began talking about how we were going to go bankrupt, we had so much debt, we weren't going to be able to afford college for the kids ("your" kids, she said).
At a calmer time in the future, perhaps with the marriage counselor since your wife is something of a loose cannon, I would address the "your" kids comment and the danger and damage that can occur from that term being used in a defensive way during an argument.
Quote: So why is all of the debt you're in now, solely your fault?
Uh. I dunno. Because she says so, and she's the financial whiz? Think again, Einstein.
Remember when she "misread" the tax law about adoption credits and had to pay a lot more in taxes than she thought? Oh yeah. It was like $13,000 more! Right. And remember when she made more money last year than she thought she would and SHE remembers telling you to change the amount of your withholding, but you neither remember her telling you, nor did you change the withholding? Yeah, that ended up being over $20,000 we owed the IRS. And remember when you got the home equity loan to pay off the IRS and her car loan and part of the credit card bills? Yeah. Those credit card bills you just realized you should have been exonerated for? Hmmm.
So, make the list of initial debt incurred, when, why and add the amount currently owed. If you don't know these things or do not have access to the info, then I would gently say that you are abrogating your responsibility.
Once you've got it down in black and white for yourself, you don't have to stand there mute when she begins her "Harry is a debt-producing financial monster, woe is me" routine.
Having your wife deal with the finances should not translate into HD doesn't have clue or input into the budget, but must live with whatever end result wife has chosen. I deal with the finances in our relationship as well and always have. That doesn't mean that I take or have a right to the position of being all-powerful and all-knowing.
When she began to make more money, why didn't she adjust *her* withholding accordingly? Why would her greater earnings mean that your withholding should change?
I admire the way you are thinking your way through all this, HD, and not getting trapped in the merry-go-round.
Welp, as my shrink always used to say to me, "he who controls the money, controls the relationship." It's a great way to keep somebody in line, especially if there is a discrepancy in the amount of income the two of you make.
Now here comes my pointy witch shoes, sorry. You have, in a very big way, created this monster to whom you are married. In an effort to placate and keep the peace, you have given away your power in order to try to control the relationship on an emotional level (the only way we become more powerful ourselves is to give power away). You do everything around the house that she asks, you allow her to control the finances (she is better at it, you say, but this is a cop-out because you are one smart cookie and you could LEARN how to be better at it, if you wanted...you just choose not to be), you back off your own emotional boundaries, you keep things inside because you don't want to be mean or hurtful towards her... you find the shrink, you turn yourself inside out to please her.... you do this so she will love you and want to ML with you in return... and instead find that there is no pleasing her, she's even PISSED OFF most of the time.
Now, being the exact same kind of person myself, I can relate. I don't want other people to be unhappy. I hate seeing others suffer, and I will do nearly everything I can to 'fix' that, even at my own expense.
This attitude, while noble, is 'abuse' in the making, it is manipulative and passive aggressive.... and, to top it all off... you get to be the VICTIM... 'cuz all you're trying to do is keep the peace and fill your home with warmth and love.
This is where that whole GAL thing comes into play, why being your own person is so critically important... and why the hell don't you have a discretionary spending account? Sorry, I digress.... uhm... letting another suffer, or be pissed, or whatever, is sometimes the most loving thing you can do for another. You don't give in to your child's tantrums, do you? No, because you know if you do, you will be creating a little midget terrorist... the child must learn to self-soothe and to accept others' boundaries.
By always being the one to back off the line, to placate, you are in essence giving in to an adult tantrum. I applaud you for firing back at your W about selling the van, etc., but I would have taken it one step further in stating, very clearly, that her approach in the entire conversation was disrepectful and degrading and you will not tolerate it. Period. She can spit and sputter all she wants and let her. If you don't GET IN HER FACE in no uncertain terms on issues of self-respect, she will never respect you. Why should she?
Develop yourself, your boundaries, your sense of self, what you like, what you don't like, etc. It is extremely important to the health and safety of your relationship. You are doing better, HD, but I don't know if the 'aha' bulb has actually clicked for you quite yet... though you are so darn close.
When your wife tells you to just 'give up and let it all be as it is,' she is talking about your passive control tactics, not your passions or desires. As an example, last Saturday, you could have called your friends, N and J and asked them to go out and celebrate with you... dressed yourself up nice and fancy, and left her home wih the kids. Intead, you crawled into a hot tub and DARED her not to get in with you. You were still projecting your wants and needs onto her...
You placated, placated, placated. You didn't go out, you didn't blow a few bills on yourself as you deserved, you didn't even have a tub partner... and that's because you gave up want you WANTED... a little affirmation on a job well done. You didn't even give that to yourself.
STOP WORRYING ABOUT YOUR W, HD. She can take care of herself. You don't have to appease her. You don't have to placate her. Or manipulate her. Stop it. GAL before you do something stupid like have an affair. Keep some of your paycheck for yourself each month and STOP that 'reporting every dime I spend' crap. You are not a child, and she is not the parent... but that is how the two of you have set it up. So unset it.
That entire blow up with your wife last night is one of those perfect "oh" times Lil was telling you about.... or a great time to walk the dog for an hour or two.
