KGBKK, Gottman is actually a name a T recommended for us - and his book is very good, have you read it? You're in the area, and so I do hope that one day you'll get to do a seminar with your W (although I don't think Gottman is much of a childhood delver).
Betsey and Stubborn... welp, what the deer didn't get, the weeds did!
We arrived in VT to a carpet of green weeds where our garden once sat. Three entire days of weeding still didn't get them all, and as we started to weed the green beans, peas, and soybeans, we saw that Swiss Family Deerson (no relation to SM) had passed through, munching the delicate beans down to mere nubbins. Through no fault of their own, however, they completely missed the cucumber and zucchini plants (too covered by weeds, I presume), and we were able to harvest four perfect, delicious zucchinis and some absolutely beautiful baby lettuces. The cucumbers are just starting to form, and we had lots of tiny green tomatoes on our 70 (seventy) (SEV-en-ty) tomato plants. S. happily built a little deer-proof fence, to which I added a SpongeBob Squarepants scarecrow (don't ask). We planted more beans and peas and cleared out most of the weeds. Never again will we wait 4 weeks before we go back!
We had a VERY successful weekend. Saturday we had a lot of fun in the garden, and we collapsed into bed early and conked out, after S. ran a bubble bath for me (one of my Top 10 Prince Charming Things to Do, and he didn't even know it!) and lots of sweet affection. Sunday we went at the weeds again, and hit a few bumps when we tried to talk about more serious topics (I know!!), but I decided if our pattern was to change, I had to be the one to change it, and I just said to him, "I'd like to change our pattern of communication - I'd like us to be able to talk to each other as friends, giving each other the benefit of the doubt we'd give any other human being, and not assume the worst intentions all the time," after which we talked about a system of talking to each other, followed it beautifully with a topic, and ended up with two successful topics broached, discussed, and taken care of. [brush brush brush] Pshew!
Tomorrow afternoon, T again. Last week's felt like it would never come - this week's feels like we just had T.
I'm too tired to update any more than this - will do it when it's time to start my new thread. [yawn] Got to rest my aching hamstrings...
I actually have 2 of the books (my original T recommended them). I have not read them yet. It is perhaps putting the cart before the horse, as they are about lasting relationships, not recovering my M (which is my focus right now). And... unfortunatly, I have left them at our house (I wish... as I am in an apt... and not at "our" house ). I will have to buy new ones here soon. The MC that we were (no longer...) seeing, suggested I not read those books right now, as they don't apply to our sitch, as we are not really in an R at this time. I think that's the problem with some of these seminars, as they are geared to couples in a relationship, or one that's rocky... not one that doesn't exist because of a WOS.
Forgiveness is the release of all hope for a better past. – Alexa Young
Quote: The MC that we were (no longer...) seeing, suggested I not read those books right now, as they don't apply to our sitch, as we are not really in an R at this time.
Wow. I'm glad nobody told me that. Many of my goals for personal improvements are based on info I learned in Gottman's books. I can't imagine recommending that someone be without the valuable info they contain. Geez, just because it's not written specifically for your situation doesn't make the whole book inappropriate.
Jennifer, pig manure doesn't do much for weeds, but it's a great deterrent for deer and other herbivores.
Good job on practicing some successful conversations!
Hmmm... maybe I read into the MC reasons too deeply. But I’ll tell you why I did do what she suggested:
Most of our MC was really more about me telling my W (and the C) about what I had been personally discovering in my own therapy. Because of that, I was reading all kinds of books too (something “..Angry Marriage” (can't recall the entire title), “How to be an Adult in a Relationship” and some others. At that time I had not picked up DR/DB, as I didn’t think we were at that stage!). She felt that I was spending too much time on investigating the R, instead of focusing on me (since the reason our R was in a bad please was somewhat because of my deficiencies) at this stage.
Now, that being said, I think my W had gone into the MC in the wrong frame of mind, and did not express what her frame of mind was to me or the C. I had asked, before we even started why my W was going. All she would say “why do you think?”, and leave it at that. So what WAS I supposed to think?
After 3 or 4 sessions, just before the last one, my W said that she was agreeing to the MC to “understand you” (meaning me). Which totally blew me away. Why the hell didn’t she just ask me what my personal counseling was uncovering outside of the MC, instead of giving me hope that we were working on things, so that we COULD focus on the R, not just me.
So, you can see why the MC would say not to read those books as we were at that time just looking at me. The MC didn’t know my W had basically checked out (even though my W was pointedly asked about her reasons of coming to MC when we started). I would say that 80-90% of the time in MC, I was the one doing the talking. My W would not contribute much (no, it wasn’t me monopolizing the conversation, unable to keep my trap shut!). So for all intents and purposes, the MC and myself were just happily (well… not happily) going along, thinking things were where they needed to be at the time.
I do think it is time for me to read the books now. Though I know it would make me sad to know that the stuff in the books would help if my W and I had an R… it’ll be for the most part… dry-run stuff. Just info, techniques, etc. for the next R (which I hope will be an R with my W!)
Forgiveness is the release of all hope for a better past. – Alexa Young
Jen, I just wanted to say I really enjoyed that update. Your writing style is so charming, and also the visit to the island of tranquility was a pleasure. I hope VT continues to be the place where you can work and play side by side.
Hi folks. Thanks for stopping by, KGBKK for the dialog on Gottman, the ever-resourceful Stubborn weighing in on pig manure, and the very kind words, Azure!
T was very good. We spent about half the time talking about the process of communicating and how it works (and how it worked for us this w-e) and how it doesn’t work, which was very helpful. Then in the context of talking about how our R ebbs and flows in a way that makes me feel insecure (T likened it to firm ground versus quicksand), I broached SM and we got started, and went away with a pledge to start with it next week, without fail. After I nervously brought it up, and then talked about what a strain it is on our R, and how every time he wants to check out he checks out with her, and the destructive pattern that makes, and how it breaks down trust and fosters fear and insecurity in me, and after he mirrored and validated(!) what I said, the T asked me to ask for what I wanted, and I obliged (contact SM, tell her you’re in a R with me, that you have been in a R with me, that we’re having a baby together, and DON’T SHARE OR HINT ANYTHING negative about me or our R with her). We’ll see what comes of it next week.
T broke in to call it “splitting”; she said it’s what a child does when he tries to pit one parent against the other (good-cop-bad-cop style), going from one to the other in hopes of getting what he needs, and how unhealthy it is (woo hoo, score 1 for the T!) and how it fosters unhealthy Rs with parents and child and how it fosters insecurity in the child. In adults, she said, it’s a pattern that won’t be broken until it’s identified and managed, and said how destructive it is in Rs, and how if the pattern goes unchecked, the person doing the splitting ends up never settling down with anyone (WHICH IS WHAT I’VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG, that S. talks a big game about how he wants to be married with a family but acts like a single man).
S. really perked up and was interested in what she was saying, and asked her to elaborate about splitting (he loves things that can be safely labeled and filed away). I was VERY encouraged that he began to see some problematic behavior in his going back and forth. Later when we talked about the session, S. said he thought it was good, and that he "learned something about myself, about the splitting." Hallelujah.
Preliminary clicking around has revealed, from an article on children of D:
Quote: Many of these children become aligned with only one parent so they become less anxious and insecure. This is a factor in alienated children, those children who feel that they can't have a relationship with both parents because they can't handle the stress. Divorced children frequently feel that they have failed or blame themselves when their parents stay in conflict, and they feel even more insecure when they can't prevent the arguments.
At its worst, children experiencing intense conflict have to take sides because they can't manage the internal tension and anxiety they feel. For these children, there is a risk of serious psychological regression where they will see one parent as mostly bad and the other parent as mostly good. This psychological "splitting," as it is called, is damaging to children because it reinforces a style in which they view the world in a "black and white" or "all or nothing" way rather than a more balanced view of good and bad in most people.
The full article can be found at this web page. (I'm thinking this would be of particular interest to you, Michele, Merrick, and Koshka.) I'm looking for more in-depth stuff. S. loves his Higher Authorities. Now, don't get any idea that I'm about to go slapping some dime-store psych analysis on S. I'm just reading up.
Later, after we picked out kitchen cabinets for one of the rental apartments in his building, we talked about paying the baby bills, and got into a tense discussion about how we are going to pay them. He wants us to split them, me paying some and him paying others, so he can have a "paper trail" that he is paying for the baby. I want the bills to be paid out of my accounts (the bills are in my name, I am the patient, and I want the records to be in one place). So I suggested opening a joint account, at which he went into a long thing about trust and money and how he doesn't trust my money management and how [blah blah on and on]. I listened, and launched right into mirroring. He was surprised, because usually I cry when we talk about money.
I worked really hard to make him feel heard and understood, mirrored for a good 30 minutes, and he wasn't really responding positively, just kept the tense and serious face/voice on. T told us to check in with our feelings occasionally from 0 to 10 (0 being not emotionally connected at all, 10 being completely emotionally connected), and I was feeling a big 0 after that conversation. I told him I was disappointed that he wasn't feeling more heard and understood after all that hard work and energy, and he said he felt like I'd heard him, but I still didn't "get it." I asked him if I should try more mirroring or if I could maybe respond to some of the things he said. He said “go ahead and respond,” after which he mirrored me. We were getting really tired (understandably, huh?!), so we agreed to stop (because it was 1a.m.) and I went to sleep feeling rather heavy and dejected. I guess I have to accept that sometimes, even after you bleed mirroring and validating out of your very last vein, it still doesn't quite do the trick sometimes. OK, I can live with that. Now, where are my leeches?
So today I'm off to a considerably cooler Manhattan, to run errands, buy a present for a friend's baby shower on Saturday, and perhaps have lunch with H2H.
). I will have to buy new ones here soon. The MC that we were (no longer...) seeing, suggested I not read those books right now, as they don't apply to our sitch, as we are not really in an R at this time. I think that's the problem with some of these seminars, as they are geared to couples in a relationship, or one that's rocky... not one that doesn't exist because of a WOS. 