It was very difficult to come up with a name for this thread that wasn't really negative.
We had a big fight this morning. Actually, a better description would be that Wolfie fought with me, while I tried very hard to stay calm and not let things get out of hand. In many ways, it was typical of arguement for us, and that is why we AVOID conflict.
Wolfie had come home from work, and had gotten into bed, which woke me up. We were talking about a remodeling project we are doing in the bathroom.
He asked he why I had a "funny look" on my face. I told him that there was something that had been bothering me, but I would like to set aside some time to talk about it. I said that the MC had suggested we set aside some time every week to talk, and that we hadn't been doing that. I said that I would like to start doing that--not just about concerns, but to read books or watch videos or whatever about having good relationships.
So he asks what is bothering me, what do I want to talk about? I said that I could list 100 things right now about how much I appreciate him and many ways that I thought our R was better than before. I said I don't want him to feel negated if I have a concern or come to him because I was struggling.
I told him that I was hurt and a little bit mad that the last time I had tried to turn to him, share with him that I was struggling--he had snapped at me and basically told me that I had used up the alloted timeframe he had given me to be able to heal. I said that really scared me to have any area, especially a big one like that, be taboo. That was how bad things had gotten before...by avoiding any issue that caused discomfort...sweeping it all under the rug and having so many unresolved issues that we remained silent about. I told him that I was afraid of going back to that state.
He said he thought that I wanted to keep the pain alive and make him feel guilty by talking about the infidelity. I said that I have, for the most part, taken my healing into my own hands: I read books, I talk to my IC, I talk to other people who have (or are) walking the same path. I told him that I wish he would learn a little bit about what is normal in the aftermath--to be patient with me on those rare times when I DO come to him for help.
I said that it is hard for me to talk to him about painful things. I was conditioned in the past to be emotionally-bullied into silence about anything that makes him feel uncomfortable. I am not trying to punish him or make him feel guilty...if that were my goal it would be very obvious.
I told him that we had been through a crisis in our R that can't be minimized. It takes a long time and effort to get past betrayal. He had said before that one of his biggest fears was that we would be one of those couples that reconciled, but never healed. I said that my goal was to be able to help each other heal--turn to each other instead of away.
He sat up and said, "you always do this...you bring this [censored] up whenever I am getting ready to go to work or need to go to sleep. One of the reasons I was afraid to move back home is because I just KNEW that you wouldn't let this die. You would want to continue beating a dead horse...talk about the affair...rehash the affair...ask the same questions over and over about the affair."
At this point...he's getting up and getting dressed. He says I am playing martyr and wounding my own self by thinking about the affair. He says, "I never should have come home--I knew you were going to do this [censored]."
Now he is pulling everything out of his closet. He says, "I am moving out. You can wonder where I am. I am not going to come back unless you stop doing this crap--that is if you can find me! And I'm taking everything of mine with me so you don't burn it".
He begins telling me all of the negative things that he thinks I am thinking...saying I am manipulitive...sandbagging me with various things he is still holding a grudge for over the years...everything I have ever "done wrong" according to him. This is all very typical of Wolfie during an arguement:
1. Threatened abandonment by either threatening to leave me or storming out. 2. Going on the attack and pulling out every real or perceived misdeed he still holds a resentment about over the 10 years we have been together. 3. Lots of low-blows 4. Doing lots of mind reading. He doesn't listen to anything I am saying--projects a lot of "you think", "you are trying to", "you REALLY mean" . He starts arguing with me about all of his assumptions instead of listening to me.
Sooooo......
I took some deep breaths and calmly told him that I felt he was doing 1, 2 and 3 above and that was not fighting fair.
I said that if he wished to leave, that was his choice...but that I wasn't going to be emotionally bullied into silence like the old days.
Then he starts going on about how I always run away when I am upset. "What about the time you ran off to your friend T's house and wrote me a note that said "F-U" on it? I said that I had needed time to calm down then because I had just found an email on the printer from him to some ff--talking about missing being single and missing being with other women".
Then he said "..and you ran off to T's house again last year". I admitted that I had run that time--I had just asked him if he was cheating on me...he lied through his teeth...and I confirmed that he was lying. I was shattered and heartbroken and so angry that I was afraid that I would hurt him physically.
Here was my low blow...I said "I promise I won't run away again if you promise not to cheat on me and betray me again".
He said that he doesn't know "what more" I want...as he has put himself on a "short leash in a fishbowl" by telling me everywhere he was going to go. He said that he did that out of guilt and he felt like a child having to do it.
I said it was not a "gift" or even being considerate...if he was doing it and resenting doing it and taking his resentment out on me.
He said, "that is how I FEEL".
I said, "feelings are just feelings an not necessarily based in reality--that is why we need to talk and listen to each other and not make assumptions".
I said, "Look Wolfie...try to imagine the tables being turned. Put yourself in my shoes. If I were in your shoes, I would be as patient as I needed to be and look for every way I could to help you heal from the pain I had caused...for as much and as long as he needed. Instead of sarcastically saying, "what more do you want from me and for how long?", I would honestly ask if there were anything else I could do to help him...and then do it freely out of my love for him. I told him that I would come to him when I was triggered and feeling guilty and ashamed...so that we could help each other.
That seemed to get through to him. He sat down and said, "is that what you are trying to say? You are saying you are not trying to punish me--you just want us to help each other? Are you saying that I don't understand what you need?"
By this time, I can't contain the tears...and I told him "yes--that is what I am trying to say". That and that our R is precious to me and worth the effort to not take the easy way around things--but to try to go through things together.
"Oh....WELL", he says and starts putting his cloths back in the closet, getting undressed, and coming back to bed. "I'm sorry I misunderstood".
Then he says he can always tell when I am leading up to something bad...that I talk around in a circle...and he sits there imaginging what I am going to say when I finally get to the point. He says a lot of women seem to do that so maybe it is not my fault because I'm a woman...but it drives him crazy.
I told him that it is hard for me to reach out to him and get to the point when he gets so angry and defensive. I said I was sorry that he thinks I am attacking him by reaching out to him--when I need reassurance...or have a concern.
He said, "I feel guilty enough, without you bringing it up".
I said, "then I want you to talk to me about your guilt when it comes up...let me help you heal too...I don't want you to carry that around in silence and let it poison all of our work".
"OK" he says, and falls asleep. ______________________________________________________________
Please help me understand what just happened and how to do better next time. Don't worry about pulling any punches if anyone thinks I need 2 x 4's.
Yeah I giggled too about the censored words. I don't know why they do that I could figure them out on my own anyway LOL.
Tal,
I know the fight was bad, and that having your H talk about leaving must have really scared you.
I do think tho that it was good that he was able to come to an understanding on what you were saying. The fact that he reiterated what you said to get clarification is a good sign of good communication. Hopefully he will learn to do this more often and before he gets upset.
I think part of that is the guilt. I am sure he still feels guilty and whenever a topic gets approached he goes into defensive mode because he is acutely aware of what he did. It may not help you, but I feel that must play a big part in our Spouse's mind.
The talking in circles I have heard somewhere else. It was brought up in "what women want men to know". Maybe later on if you get a communication time set aside you could get the audio CDs of that book and listen toghter. It helped me to understand more on how and why women communicate like that. It may clarify things for him and allow him to be more patient.
Take care.
God Bless You,
Reuben
Cautiously hopeful and keeping the Momentum
Hey, thanks R. In my case, it's not only a (probable) gender tendency, but a cultural one as well. I'm Native American and we are hella FAMOUS for talking in circles! Have you ever heard a native elder talk? Oh...man! They can talk *around* and issue for hours...and never get to the point...cuz we are supposed to INFER what they mean without them having to come right out to the bottom line. Getting up and walking away from an elder doing that is considered RUDE, DISRESPECTFUL, AND IGNORANT!
In addition, Wolfie is sooooooo touchy! I feel like I can't get down to bare bones until I have give him FULL context (so he won't misunderstand me) and tons of validation (so he's less likely to get defensive)! I practically have to surround the "point" with big fluffy feather pillows so I can minimize the backlash! GEEEEZ!
It's hard enough when I am trying to communicate very tender and vulnerable--but also having to be afraid that the result will be major emotional bullying to get me to shut up and shut down.
I guess next time, I could go straight to what I want to say with no feather pillows to see if that makes any difference.
In looking back at his words and actions this morning...I am angry at him, but I am mostly feeling sad and resigned.
If I had used supreme effort not kept my cool, I could have really lost my temper and been absolutely BRUTAL.
I am still shocked by how deeply self-centered he can be, and have serious doubts for the first time in a long time about this working out. I am remembering something that my IC told me...about how a lot of women my age are conciously choosing to forego trying to have a commited relationship, because men of the same age group can lag so far behind in emotional maturity, that it is just too much of a pain in the butt. I know that there are many exceptions to that--right here on these boards, but Wolfie may very well be one of thse guys and I have not wanted to admit it to myself.
I guess what gets to me the most--is the way he describes the HUGE sacrafice of letting me know where he is going to be (the short-leash in a fisbowl thing) so that we can "feel safe and secure" with him again, then when we have an arguement, he starts packing.
Yes, he's correct that twice in 10 years I have taken off and stayed the night away from home...after two very stunning blows. But we can't argue without him threatening to move out...again? He's only been home for 4 months, after living elsewhere for 9 months. How can that possibly compare? All of that "safety and security" he wanted me to feel by telling me his whereabouts just flew out the window with that "I'm moving out" garbage.
At this point, I think it will be very ifficult to feel safe about talking to him about anything that I feel vulnerable about, but I really need to let him know that if he tries to bully me with that "shut up or I'm leaving" stuff---it will be the last time he threatens that again because I will tell him to leave and to his surprise, I will NOT be tracking him down to beg him to come home and try again.
You know, it burns my butt that he thinks there is something wrong or abnormal about my continuing to have ANY issues about his infidelity left over. If there is something wrong with me still struggeling sometimes--when he has only been home a short time--then that would mean that all of you folks here who's stories let me know just HOW NORMAL my feelings and reactions are--well that would make all of us abnormal I guess.
You know, the last few times that the subject of the A has come up--I haven't delved back into the past to ask questions or talk about the details. I think I have focused on going on from here in a realistic way.
Well, we talked a little on the phone tonight. I told him "for better or for worse" doesn't mean "until the next time I get mad and threaten to move out".
He said he was just overreacting and had lost his temper--but he'd put all his stuff back in the closet. I told him that there are a lot of things I can take with a grain of salt that he says when he's angry--but that particular threat has to be OFF the table.
He said he felt a fool as soon as he'd said it, and it would never happen again.
Dang...you know I actually spent time today seriously wondering if I could learn to become a lesbian.....
When I first started reading this yesterday my first thought was "oh no, not Tal, too!
Quote: And I'm taking everything of mine with me so you don't burn it".
I'm sorry, but this did make me chuckle a little. Just the visual of the bonfire...
My H likes to threat moving out, but he's been doing it so it's not a threat. M H does this all the time, whenever I try to hold him accountable the first words out of his mouth are "I'm moving out!" Even though they might not mean it, they overreact, it still hurts and I know the fear it brings.
My H overreacts all the time! But, that's okay. I won't even go there.
I totally understand, I feel that my W doesn't always understand how much of a struggle it is for me. Luckily she is more in touch with emotions than a man would be so it helps. I don't know if WAS ever learn or understand the full extent of what we went through to get hem back or even the daily struggle of feeling good about the decisions we made, especially when they exibit behavior of the type before and during the sep.
The short lesh thing is also a struggle with me and my W. I have always filled her in on what I am doing, I have always respected her that way. She doesn't return to me the same courtisies. She still goes on about needing space and freedom, which I do give her, my only request is that she let me know what she's doing and to do so freely without me having to ask. I think she sometimes resents it, but its just plain respect. That's all we ask right? Its not hard, and they well know that if we didn't they'd be pissed. Don't feel bad about this, its something anyone would do.
Quote: At this point, I think it will be very ifficult to feel safe about talking to him about anything that I feel vulnerable about, but I really need to let him know that if he tries to bully me with that "shut up or I'm leaving" stuff---it will be the last time he threatens that again because I will tell him to leave and to his surprise, I will NOT be tracking him down to beg him to come home and try again.
I personally don't know how I would have handled it myself. I am an honest person and have been a bit more upfront about things. I did tell my W at one time during a recent R talk, that I have given so much to get where I am now, that if she left again, I wouldn't do this again. Not sure if its true but I believe it. I also have been able to tell her that my fear currently is that I could be a WAS if my needs are met enough by her. In fact last night she said she feels like she is losing me each day. It was her talking out of guilt, but now I know she understands this more. (I'll detail more when I update my sitch).
These feelings are normal. I fear every day that my W is someone I don't want to be with. I haven't told her specifically this, but eluded to above. My fear of her not changing things that are deal breakers to me...takes me to crazymaker land sometimes and I need to deal with this at some point. I am hoping we can discuss together to heal through this as well.
In fact I was talking with a buddy last night about just this thing, and I even mentioned that these few fears and concerns may be things I can learn to overlook. So maybe I am starting to deal with it.
Sorry for all the crazy ramblings...doubt it helps much, exept to know we are out her with those same thoughts and fears. I have learned to start looking beyond my anger to what lies beneth which is usually fear. Once I get there and reconize the emotion of anger for what it is (in my case usually fear), I can usually work on it with IC.
Take care, and I hope the fact your H acknowledges it was wrong will at least keep the threat from surfacing for a long time, if not forever.
God Bless You,
Reuben
Cautiously hopeful and keeping the Momentum
