What is really sinking in with these WW, WAW, MLC, whatever you wish to call them is the audacity of their actions.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
If you've ever read posts on other forums by WAW's, it really helps you to realize there are two sides to every story. A lot of women will talk about how absent their H was from the marriage. When we court women we spend a LOT of time with them. If we're not at work then we're with them, or talking to them on the phone, or texting them. They get our undivided attention. We nurture them, support them, fulfill them emotionally, talk about hopes and dreams and the future. Eventually we get married and that's when most men get lazy. She's "in the bag" so there's no longer a need to focus so much attention on her. So we get wrapped up in work, hobbies, kid stuff. We forget her birthday or the anniversary. We barely talk to them. We complain to them instead of talking about hopes and dreams. And we think it's no big deal because "she's my wife, she understands."
Here's the thing, men don't need all that emotional support nonsense, right? Just sex now and then gets the job done. BUT WOMEN DO NEED IT. They need it a LOT, and if they don't get it from us then they WILL eventually seek it out elsewhere. But before that they will start dropping hints. They would tell us, but most of us are so quick to anger that they are afraid to. So they hint instead. We don't take hints very well, we need 2x4's. But they're scared to do that. So they hint and hint and hint and nothing changes. Then they decide to give up and plan their escape. THAT's when we finally get the 2x4 called BD. But by then it's too late to fix all the wrongs that led to their decision.
I hear a lot of language like yours here- "audacity". How dare she do this, destroy the marriage, destroy the family. How can she be such an evil monster. But most WAS's would use the exact same language about their LBS. How dare they mislead me like this, first focus all their energy on me until we get married and then all but abandon me.
Her "truth" is very real and honest and accurate to her just as yours is to you. But here's the trick, you have to set your version aside and try to understand HER truth. If you can be honest with yourself about what YOU did to lead her to this point, THEN you can go on your path of growth.
W continues to be busy during her vacation week and I'm trying to do the same.
Tuesday she was out with D2 at the museum in the morning, then went to see a movie in the afternoon. After dinner I went out with my friends from next door and had a good time.
Wednesday W went out in the morning, I believe with her affair-encouraging BFF, but came back in time to take D2 to the pediatrician. We all went to the playground for an hour, then W went to the supermarket while I took D2 home for a nap. W texted me that her sister was having a BBQ at her new place. She just moved in with her BF about 15 mins from our house. So I took D2 over there and wife joined after finishing with groceries.
Yesterday (Thursday) W went on a day trip about 1.5 hours away. This was originally supposed to be with D2, then W was testing the waters on not bringing her. In the end she took D2 along, which made it much easier for me to finish some work projects.
She called me on the way back and asked if I was at the house. I said I wasn't but I would be soon. She wanted to go out with someone and leave D2 with me. I told her we had a calendar, that Thursday is "my" night, and that I had plans to go out. She asked where, I said, "Out with some friends." She asked which friends. I said she didn't know them, which is true. She was miffed and practically hung up on me. Apparently it's only fun when she gets to do whatever she wants and I stay home and mind the fort. And apparently she's the only one who's supposed to be going out without sharing details. Oh well. I went out and had a lot of fun.
This morning (Friday) I woke up and she'd put an air mattress in the living room. Apparently she has no plans to return to the MBR but was tired of the couch. None of this is what I want but I'm not going to say a word. W took D2 to a playground to meet her coworker and coworker's daughter, who will be in D2's preschool class. They get along really well, which is great since D2 hasn't been around a ton of other kids her age.
W's phone has been acting up so she wanted me to drop everything and go with her to the store (I'm the account holder). I told her I had to finish up some things first and she was miffed. She does not think my work counts. Asked me multiple times how much longer I'd be. I kept saying, "When I'm finished with the project. I have to send it out today.". A couple of hours later we went, with D2. They ended up replacing her phone, and we had to stop by the carrier's store to activate the new one.
After I said I'd like an iced tea and she made this whole thing about having to go to her parents' house and not having time, grumbling because there was traffic on the road with the iced tea. So apparently me taking 2.5 hours to deal with her phone problems is fine, but her taking 10 minutes so I can have an iced tea is a huge imposition. So selfish these days.
She's also become a more hostile driver, making snotty comments about other drivers. ("Come on, MOVE" or "Uh-uh b****, nobody invited you, wait your turn," when a car was inching forward out of a parking lot). Some pretty aggressive driving too, which I don't love with D2 in the car. Anyway...
LH19 and Harvey I hope there is karma. I really do.
IHCLACS I think I share your frame of mind mostly these days.
AnotherStander I really appreciate your imput, and it was my take for a long time. But it feels I am blue in the face from analyzing my specs of dirt on my side of the yard, compared to loads of manure on her side.
I really feel like they brought a canon to target a mosquito.
I dont disagree with their POV. But its not like we were coming home drunk beating them, hiding affairs etc.
We all simply neglected them in the heat of battle. Our common IC had told us to spend more time together, so we would watch films together and every morning we would go out for cofee and share life talks. She saw me as her gay friend at some point, (and I am not using it in a sexist way, she used those words exactly to describe me herself in the end) I dont think I was lacking in time spent with her. Honestly I took a good look at all the details of our past.
It was one year of my studying for my CCNA cert. Thats where I lost her. For crying out loud.
AS I get they want time and space. For your situation why did you wait 6 months? What exactly made you decide to move forward with d? If you donít mind me asking? LH the program is run by Fort Mertel. Changed the first letter of the name. Donít know if you heard of him. His whole program is about connections, (touch charge, talk charge, giving gifts) to name a few things. Some things in that program is true for DB. Absolutely no R talks. Donít believe anything they say. I think that was it. Lol. Just taking it one day at a time. GAL, detaching and being the best dad for my kids!!!
What is your co-parental schedule like ? Who is "in charge" of your child for the coming five days?
The recipe is quite simple, because I am going to advice you to do the exact same thing in both cases.
Case 1: According to the schedule it is your time with your kid: You get out and do something fun with your kid - go to the beach and build a sandcastle, go to the forest and look for trolls and goblins, or find a hidden treasure. Go to the library, go visit family or set up playdates. <--- Go OUT and live life and get some great experiences with your kid.
Case 2: Your STBXW has your kid according to your schedule: Well... GO OUT... Play golf, visit friends, visit family, hit the gym, go for a long walk, go to a concert, go to the cinema....
Will you want to? most likely not.. You want to stay at home, so you can use these 5 days wisely, and logic tells you that wisely is to be there for your wife, so she can see that you are really trying, and that you are a good husband.... its pursuit, and wont work. Let her fly.
In case you missed my 2x4.... GET THE HECK OUT OF THAT HOUSE, it is sucking you dry, and you need to get up and get out, no matter how tired you are / not feeling like going out...
These 5 last days are meaningless in the bigger picture.... Do not think anything will change between you, because thats on a whole other time scale.....
H still doing yard work only when you are not around. He feels the pull of his old life, but canít handle what he has done or is doing. Emotional turmoil. Leave him to it. That sounds mean, until you understand and realize that is the most compassionate thing you can do for him.
Sending a brief message every once and a while. Hmmm. Basically anything you do, or donít do, will not affect his path. And paradoxically everything you do, will affect it.
I think most IC are there for you. That makes sense, you are seeing them. They will give you advice for you. Unfortunately you, me, and many of us here, are in a situation with limited understanding or belief from the professional world.
H needs time and space.
If he reaches out, and you can handle it, by all means respond kindly and briefly. Letting him control the pace ensures he is capable of handling the emotions that will stir up within him.
You reaching out periodically is fine, but has some possible drawbacks. It keeps you on his radar when he has stated and demonstrated that he needs to leave. Of course you asked him to move out. To be caringly blunt with a very good friend: I think this is a point you need to accept, to lose your fear over, and to forgive yourself for. (((Grace)))
I still remember some advice you gave me ďYou donít worry about the harshness, you want advice on how to get through this and get to the other sideĒ. Pretty wise of you, and a good expectation to tell me. It woke me up a little, to be honest.
Another drawback with periodical messages from you, is it keeps him on your radar.
H needs time and space.
What does Grace need?
I think dim is a good approach. Let him choose when you two converse.
I believe H is still in replay. If there is an OW, he is in replay. However, it is a good idea to read back on the stages again. We all need a certain level of understanding to move forward. And then more understanding to move more again.
The hearts slip up on the message, itís ok. Mortified! The shock, the panic. I was right there as I was reading along. Thank you for sharing. Showing vulnerabilities is healing and helpful. You had a slip and a wonderful sincere (gasp in shock of what Iíve done) response. I found it beautiful to tell the truth. I am looking at it as a window into you, and nothing to do with what H thinks or now wonders (or not) about.
It is a sign, the meaning of which will be revealed when you arenít looking for it. Trust this. The sign is also not what you are thinking it is. Iím not being coy or purposefully opaque about this, for no reason. Let this incident go. Give it over to God. I promise your subconscious will be mulling this over, and when you least expect it, you will be given an answer.
My question AS and everyone else, why is that? Why are the for a d then when the pressure is off they donít talk about it?
Because of all the arguing and begging and pleading and R talks we all do to begin with. It sends them this message: "I don't care what you want, I only care what I want and what I want is for us to stay married and for you to act like nothing is wrong and forget it all happened." With pressure like that, S or D is the only way they see to get out. But if you take all the pressure off, then their attitude changes to "what's the hurry". It doesn't mean they are having second thoughts or anything, it just means that they no longer feel rushed to do something. The whole idea of BD is they want TIME and SPACE. Give it to them and you've basically given them exactly what they wanted.
I need to let the EA run it's course, but it stinks waiting it out.
This isn't a waiting game. As long as you let him cake-eat he will continue to do so. If he and OW stop talking then rest assured there will be OW2 or 3 or 4 waiting in the wings.
I just want to expose her, so that she will stop pursuing H.
Won't work. It almost always drives the WAS and OP closer together. It makes them feel like it's "them against the world", like they are a team. Your beef is with H, not OW. If he's sitting there with a big smile on his face texting OW you should make his life miserable. Tell him to go in the backyard if he wants to do that crap.
I think you're so far into the process and post-D life that meeting the bf shouldn't be as big of a deal compared to when she told you that she had a bf. I met exW's bf for coffee first one-on-one and that kinda paved the way. Gave me a chance to get first impressions and also let him know certain things. It was pretty amicable and I left feeling better.
Don't count on your exW holding her word. My exW didn't give me a heads up when her bf showed up for my kids weekend events. I took that through the lens of having zero expectations from her and her behaviour was not indicative of anything to do with me. I knew that she wanted me to meet her bf so that she could bring him around more - she is extremely impatient. She's made decisions that I wouldn't have made - introduced him to the kids very early on and vice versa. They're going full steam ahead with this blended family situation now and it's really interesting to watch it from afar. I try to not speculate but I do find it bizarre and immature that both of them are going ahead at top notch speed and it's barely been like 3 months since they got together. I am just worried about my kids if things don't work out between them as they are getting attached to his kids and him in some ways as well. Not a good process but I can't do much about it except make sure kids are good on my end.
I did feel a pang of nervousness last time I saw him and her together, but it's pretty low key now. So expect to feel something and if you need to head out to gather your thoughts and emotions, do so. But, it's not that huge especially when you've done so much detachment work. I have zero interest in getting back with her and seems the same with you, so who she chooses to be with is totally her reality and got nothing to do with who you are.
Your exW in some ways has followed a similar script to mine and so don't be surprised if her bf shows up to a kid event.
Glad to hear the negotiations went well Bo! I'm surprised your W backed off the insistence that she keep YS full time. It sounds like she knew you were going to object (I think you had mentioned it before) and had already formulated another option. That's good, shows that she is taking you seriously and not just trying to walk all over you.
Next time just put them on the calendar instead of telling her. And on the wrong month like she does Sometimes people here have those "angry" WAS's and let me tell you, there's no calming them down. You absolutely did the right thing in just walking out.
That is what i am confused about. Five days left but I just wanted to give a message that she can't just do anything till the time she is living here, even if it is five days. I just dont want to feel doormat.
Be as scarce as possible. Go as dark as you can. Keep contact to a minimum. You can't control her, so don't try.
You see your situation with good clarity. Yes, H is trying to escape his demons and just has nothing left to give you. He canít handle his own feelings and thoughts, so he pushes everyone and everything away. He will most likely fall off the radar for some time.
My XW was sort of involved for about 2 months after BD. She attempted the obligatory visiting of her children, like a Mom should want to do. She just couldnít take it or fake it - it was obvious. After that first Christmas she faded away and has remained pretty silent; coming up on 19 months. She has never told the kids or me about her surprise divorce wrangling, and no one has brought it up to her. She is reaching out to the kids a bit more lately, nothing of substance just some little contact. All the kids are kind and compassionate, and do respond to the small talk, even though it does repeat - she asks the same questions over and over again, that Swiss cheese mind.
Originally Posted by Grace21
Not 100%, but improved. Havenít looked at phone records or did any internet searches in almost a week. Still look at FB once in a while, but I stopped OWs FB page.
Really good that you stopped (blocked right?) OWís FB page. Using technology to your advantage is really helpful, in a moment of strengthful resolve just block her. You can do that to H as well, and you will when your ready.
The phone records are interesting and do have a pull. Along with GPS on our phones and all manner of other snoop-abilities. Why is his cell phone on your bill? Just a thought to consider. He can look after his own cell phone and bill, and then you cannot see it. I was lucky, didnít seem like it at the time, XW wanted her cell phone off my bill so I could not know what she was up to. Just like a angry rebellious teenager, and she still doesnít want anyone knowing what she is doing.
Originally Posted by Grace21
I canít imagine what could be revealed when I am not looking for it. But, I will wait until God decides to do it. His timing, not mine.
Oh, that is such a profound and truthful statement - it will have much different meaning to you later.
I promise you, a much better, gentle, peaceful, and forgiving future is available. You just canít force it. It will be revealed when you are calm, and not really looking for it.
Letís discuss not snooping a bit more, to somewhat illustrate this. By the way, this applies to all aspects of our lives, not just the not snooping; so bare with me I try not to ramble.
You are working on breaking a habit, to change a behaviour. Certainly a difficult task, especially with such emotional ties and reinforcing feedbacks.
A while ago I mentioned how I started living a gentle peaceful life by just gently closing the cupboard door. I hope you remember.
Tackling habits and behaviour head on has its place and successes. However, how one tackles them is the key. So please do the following for me:
Donít think of elephants, with their large gray ears, and long trunks. Donít see their skinny tails swishing flies away. And definitely donít think of a blue elephant with green spots, and the size of a mouse, running across the floor in front of you.
Of course you thought of all that. Our brains have to realize what it is that we donít want to think about, so we can know what we are not wanting to know. You can see why a direct - ďDonít do thisĒ - approach is next to impossible to achieve.
I might as well point out something else too.
ďTry not to snoop.Ē
The word ďtryĒ sets one up for failure. Our minds are incredible powerful - it creates your reality. No doubt about that. If it is in your mind it real - to you.
And yet our powerful minds, at times, are easily lead by suggestion. The word try will lead you. It preconditions and pre-accepts that you probably will not achieve whatever you are ďtryingĒ to do. Your powerful mind will make that a reality. If you ďTry to run up the stairs while holding your breathĒ, you will run out of breath - mostly because you fore-decided that it is not really possible but you would try.
The negative part of suggestive thoughts is also problematic. Try not to, donít - that kind of thing. Donít think of elephants. Try not to snoop. Our minds donít do - ďnotĒ, they do - ďdoĒ. Our minds create, they actively think and pursue, they do not - do ďnotĒ. Even ignoring is an active function.
This is where being accurate in thought and heart really shines. Knowing and expressing in a positive manner.
This is also where language and thought diverge. Your inner dialog is different than conversation with others, than suggestions to others. We need to use ďtryĒ and ďdonítĒ so the other person, even ourselves, can see what it is we are attempting to do. However, internally we need to say it in a different manner. ďRun up the stairs while holding you breathĒ has a much better chance of success; it looks and sounds attainable. If you donít make it with out taking a breath it is because you actually ran out of oxygen and needed to. Big difference.
The positive manner I mentioned. That is more thinking in affirmation, than seeing it in a good light. A lot of this situation, our interacting with the MLCer, is dark, negative, and unwanted - look at it in a positive affirming manner, see the accurate picture. Yes it is painful and accurate. I know you understand this, it is key to detachement and you have that understanding really well. (By the way, indifference brings peace, and you donít even look their way anymore. You really do focus on you).
ďTry not to snoopĒ.
Ok. First do or do not - there is no try. Really good movie, and really wise words.
Second drop the ďnotĒ, the negative approach. Find a positive approach.
Third drop the snoop reference because it just reminds and reinforces your wanting to snoop.
That is all the internal thought stuff. Turn all that into actions. You are breaking a habit (notice I didnít said trying to break a habit). You are changing your behaviour.
Focus on you and find actions that move you forward. You progress, you let go, you break habits, you heal. All at the same time. The most efficient way is a direct line from where you are to your headings, your goals. Forgiveness.
Do block OW.
Remove H from phone bill.
Try not to search the internet. (Nope)
Do not search the internet. (Better, but no)
Crochet those shawls for the mission trip. (Yes!)
Bake that loaf of bread. And tell DnJ all about it. (I really want to hear how it tastes. Itís texture, colour, smell, and flavour. Hard crunchy crust or soft and thin? Oh my goodness I could really go for some fresh baked bread right now.)
Things will be revealed when you are not really looking for them. You are correct it is hard to imagine the profound changes that await. One is having no desire or need to snoop. Imagine just how wonderful and freeing that will be.
The really big one, which you are making huge gains on, acceptance. It is coming, just have to let it arrive.
We only control ourselves, our thoughts, actions, and responses. Such needed advice when first starting to detach. It is still true, and needed.
You have direct control on only your thoughts, the intellectual car. Emotions, physical wellness, and spiritual being are only influenced by our conscious thoughts, not directly controlled. The more at peace and calm we become the more influence we can exert, and the more success we have in altering our emotional and spiritual state. It looks like control, however it is not, it is just good thinking. It is a wonderful place when you can turn on and off your ďfeelingsĒ for your spouse or ex spouse. Realizing you donít control it, gives you a mechanism to alter your state (almost control). Honest, I can do it in well under a minute now.
Grace, I do care about you, and you are doing so very well. You listen to advice, you question, you work towards understanding, and you have great goals. I have much more I am willing to share, and am willing to discuss - even though the posts do tend towards greater length. Ah hell, I write a lot - your worth it.
Fearlessness. How are your fears? What are you fearful of? What have you uncoupled from and accepted? (Iíd say overcome but that is not accurate) Is anything holding you back? Donít fear! Lol. Be fearless! Nothing you say will be wrong. (See what I meant, the use of donít has a purpose in language, and is different in your mind)
Your journey is for you.
Hís journey is for him.
Love him enough to let him go. Love him enough to forgive.
The confusion they exhibited at the beginning is evendence of their two worlds both being active in their minds. As time goes on, the MLCer usually pulls away. This is when they are becoming more and more wrapped up in their crisis, and the LBS gets less and less thought. As they run further into the tunnel, they question their actions less.
Now during quiet times for them, those questions and uncertainties come back, the demons come back. So, I believe most question if what they are doing is right. And they answer - Yes. It is right.
They have rewritten history, have justifications, and will use whatever they need, to maintain their fantasy. They are driven to run from their pain; which doesnít promote much self-reflection for them. As life, karma, piles on problems they cannot run from so easily, they are forced to question, and to grow.
This was posted on another thread, and I wanted to comment on it without hijacking their thread. This gives me a lot of clarity with what might be happening in my own sitch now. H is becoming more and more distant. Showing up at the house to do the yardwork only when he knows I wonít be home, no messages this week at all. I can sense from afar his further pulling away. Whatís interesting to me is I now seem to also be moving into more detachment. I hope my detachment continues.
I do feel deep within that I should just send a brief message to him to see how he is doing periodically. I even discussed this with my IC a few months ago, and she thought it would be fine. I believe you canít ere when it comes to concern and compassion.
Anyway, I did just that a week ago. He said ďOK. Good days and bad daysĒ. I did not respond further. No communication since. Now, to be clear, I wasnít expecting any. So, perhaps H is moving into the next stage. I think I have to look those up again. Iím sure his demons do still pop up, but as wth anything it tends to affect us less and less as time goes on. He may feel less and less guilty about all thatís occurred (or the feelings are buried more deeply), and feel that moving on is the right thing to do for him. Time will tell.
So, I made a big blunder today. I was sending him another brief ďjust checking to see how you are doingĒ note on FB. I didnít even start typing, and hearts started flying. I must have by accident touched the heart. It always shows up as a quick option. Iím mortified! So, I just sent a message saying I was just sending a quick message to see how you were doing. The heart was an accident, so I donít want you to be panicked or pressured. I didnít know what else to do!!! I know usually fewer words is best, but I felt I needed to clarify! I certainly donít want him thinking Iím trying to lure him in or am pining for him, which I definitely am not.
Maybe thatís a sign to completely leave him alone. I think itís time.
A - Did I read that correctly you are already getting I love you's??????
Some time ago yes. B is a very "all in" kind of lady. I think for Ginger and M that it was about 2 1/2 - 3 months in but she's an "all in" gal as well. Your Dr is probably much more reserved. And also keep in mind too that B and I have had quite a bit of time to just talk as well as at least 2 dates / week.
It's been awhile. I'm pretty much in the same spot. The girls and I had a fantastic time in Pensacola Beach. I had to cancel the Vegas trip due to the death of a family friend. Work has been ultra stressful--with a lot of change going on. I'm splitting my time between being with the girls and living with my cousin and her husband. They are great people and I enjoy them, but life is a lot less structured. It's hard to get used to it.
The first house closed on 4/5. We may have a contingent offer on the second house. Getting that sold would be a big stress relief.
On the OLD front, things are going pretty well. I met up with one of the girls the weekend of the funeral--which happened to be in the same town as I'm moving to this summer. She's really into me. Her husband just up and left her and their teenage daughter and moved across country. He doesn't see the daughter at all. She would be of the rebound type. There's a lot going on there.
I'm really interested in going on a date with the girl that I've been talking to for awhile. She seems like my type and she seems to have her stuff together. Her ex-husband was a real piece of work also. He only sees their two boys a couple of days/week and not overnight, and I don't think it's because she or the justice system screwed him over. She would actually like for him to hang out with their boys more.
I don't know much about the third girl. We haven't really gotten very deep in our conversations--which has all been via messaging on the OLD site. I know that's a big no no around here.
The more I talk to these women about their ex-husbands, the better I feel about myself.
As far as XW, we are very cordial with each other. As much as I've moved on, it would probably be hard for me to ever rule out reconciliation (if that was even in the cards). I'm pretty well detached from her, but I still think about it at times. That's probably the toughest thing to balance at this point. I've actually turned it into a game. I try to be attractive to her, and sort of think of her as a fourth woman that I'm trying to court--in case she finds out the grass isn't greener and I haven't completely moved on.
I donít have proof. She is planning on moving out in a month. I am not doing her any favors. When I leave to GAL I havenít even been saying where I am going. What do you recommend me doing to not put up with her shít?