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A Message from Michele
Active Threads | Active Posts | Unanswered Today | Since Yesterday | This Week
Midlife Crisis
7 minutes ago
Sorry you are back again

How much interaction do you have now

Is she currently with OM
1 16 Read More
For Newcomers
56 minutes ago
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD

and Michele's articles

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.


Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)

Going Dark

Detachment thread

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)

Boundaries Cheat Sheet


For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2

Resource thread

Stages of the LBS


Pursuit and Distance

The Lighthouse Story

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
1 15 Read More
For Newcomers
1 hour ago
Its our 2 year wedding anniversary, just wondering should i stay NC and say nothing?
She still has us as her profile pic on FB. Its been NC since last Saturday.
44 627 Read More
For Newcomers
3 hours ago
By the way, I found out baseball coach started a new travel ball team and my S will be on it. That means more weekend trips with the coach. I know my son needs the experience with more talented teams but it also means W will be around him even more and I won't always be there. I know I can't control it but man is it discouraging. It will also cost about $1000 bucks a weekend and more debt because we don't have any extra cash after bills!
32 570 Read More
For Newcomers
4 hours ago
Well she is a very sexual woman and if she's not dating anyone I'm sure she is...wanting...and yours truly will forever have an edge with her in that department. There is a method to my madness! wink
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For Newcomers
4 hours ago
thanks ovrr...
convo for the whole week is about bills, nothing else. my messages to her are business type, no pronouns. straight up business. WW’s convo with D14 happened because, D14 said something about WW hitting her and of course IC has to stop/control it right away. Plus D14’s IC suggests to WW that she needs to build R with D14. WW probably got shook too about the hitting incident, that she doesn’t want to lose D14. WW apologized and was crying about it. Unfortunately D14 wasn’t buying any of it. WW did this to herself, and only she can fix it.,4
57 768 Read More
Midlife Crisis
4 hours ago
Originally Posted by OneArt
Now, the way he is handling the litigation, as well as the fear he exhibits, make me think it is really very serious passive-aggressive behavior and BPD/bipolar. In the end it really doesn't matter. What matters is the behaviors and the person he is showing me and the kids now.

OneArt, this kind of stuck out to me so i thought i would post. Learning about narcisism, BPD, bipolar, and their spectrums and how some may overlap gave me a lot of awareness about others, especially ex and a couple coworkers. I know im inept to be making diagnoses, but at the same time the symptoms/signs are there. Right out of a textbook for one former coworker. I mention this because by being aware i have been able to deal w/them a little differently than i had been and it has significantly helped.

46 1,206 Read More
Midlife Crisis
5 hours ago
Par, how are you?
8 195 Read More
For Newcomers
5 hours ago
Thank you, everyone.


I'm getting full custody. It's temporary until she has a permanent house and permanent job, and then we can reconsider 50/50. The snake stuff...the huge emotional mistake...apparently that was a good call, because that plus all of the moving S around sealed the deal to the point where she couldn't do anything but agree that the points were valid. She'll have full visitation with no restrictions on when those times are, however I have the right to say no, and I can choose who S stays with if neither me nor her are available.

She will be paying half of day care costs and also child support.

I keep the car. Car note, too.

I opted not to make her pay half the credit card debt. It wasn't going to make any real impact on anything, anyway, but with CS and the daycare split, that will help a little.

Pretty much everything else is 50/50. Nothing really to argue over.

She did try to get a gag order so I couldn't say anything at all about the D, or her, or parenting choices, but I had to tell the mediator "this is stupid, and it shouldn't even be up for discussion at mediation, because it's not why we're here." The mediator agreed, and she dropped it.

So, before I left the mediation room, her sis txted me something to the effect of "you're a manipulative b*****d and you should kill yourself". I told her sis that I was sorry she felt that way.

What W doesn't realize yet is that I still don't intend to FORCE S to live with me and cut her off. I want her to step up and be the best person she can be for S, and get her life under control. I think she got the message loud and clear. I'm fine with her spending time with S, and I wouldn't try to stop her. But the poor decisions where he's involved are done, and while I will be playing it cool, I retain the authority to cut it all off. I hope I never have to do that.

I'm still going to DB. I'm terrified that I won't be able to do this single dad thing well. But at least I can ensure that better decisions are made where S is concerned, and that's all that really matters.

Love you all!
85 1,649 Read More
Midlife Crisis
5 hours ago
Hi DnJ,

I had a nice long post and lost it on my phone before posting so this will have to be shorter.

Your posts lately have been so similar to some recent podcasts I've listened to and a book I just read it's eerie.

I think addiction is so closely tied to drugs in our society that people dont realize (myself included) that so many things can be addictive, phone, social media, adrenaline, likes, sugar, work, exercise, etc. I was addicted to ex (explains my denial at first) and at the same time she was addicted to OM and all that it entailed. In addition, I was addicted to depression and anger. Naturally i was depressed but the long-lasting depression is exhausting and it would go as long as it could then my brain would say where can get some energy...I know, anger towards ex for what she did which lead back to depression. Repeat. It wasn't until i realized the actual chemical reaction cycle going on that I started to come out of it and stop. Before i realized this I might be out of the depression or anger for awhile but it would come back. And like a true addiction, i have to fight not going back to anger or depression some days, that's where foregiveness and mercy come in, not just for ex but for myself as well. Not that i never get mad but Im not or have never been an angry person. Im often told youre the nicest person I've ever met or how im a genuinely nice person and I've had trouble most of my life with people (or maybe just parents and ex) getting mad at me for not getting mad (their problem), yet i got caught in this cycle and depression and anger.

I haven't gone to IC in a while. My counselor said i was good now and i didnt need to come back. Just kidding, she moved. Maybe this is a little weird, but sometimes i will think about what her responses to some of my thoughts or actions would be or what advice i think she might give and it helps. You're second to last paragraph above reminded me of this. i know she wouldn't tell me to look at old pictures, get on Facebook, etc. to feel better yet that's what most of us do.

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For Newcomers
6 hours ago
The OW probably knows it's wrong. She just doesn't care. People do crappy things, and unfortunately on this site we see it time and time again.

He is clearly feeling some pressure from you, but you do need to change your dynamic from what I hear from you.

I'd do what you're doing as well. You need to break yourself from the habit of talking to him. But I'd be ready for action if I were you. How much can you take? And why is he not making a move one way or the other, after all this time?
21 389 Read More
For Newcomers
6 hours ago
Make yourself do 20 pushups, or situps, or squats every time. It will be a good release!

Just go GAL, your H hasn't "told anyone" b/c it would make him look bad. Don't go to discuss your sitch, but to really have fun. Hard to have fun when you're talking about your sitch.
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For Newcomers
7 hours ago
I am angry because the woman I love has chosen a path in life separate from me, and I have no control over it. It is okay to feel anger. The anger itself is not the issue, it is what you do with the anger you feel. You can choose to ignore it and stuff it down, but this could end up making it come back even more powerful the next time.
If you accept your emotion, and find a healthy way of coping with it, then it loses its power over you and you can healthily detach from it when you need to.

I accept that I am angry and that I cannot make someone love me. I am coping with it by using breathing exercises and trying to observe the feeling from a zoomed out view of myself. To see the whole issue and get a better picture of it. This is but a moment in the timeline of my life and if I look back I can see all the GOOD along with the bad. If I look ahead, I can imagine all of the GOOD that is coming. These feelings are temporary and will pass. This time of my life does not determine who I am, it does not have control over me.
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For Newcomers
8 hours ago
I dont have any advice for you either bin, other than to say take it sloooow. Ill be checking your thread out and good luck to you whatever you decide!
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For Newcomers
9 hours ago
To me, it IS controlling if you are just establishing different rules than W and not discussing with her. I think it’s reasonable to discuss the phone usage expectation with w rather than just “taking it” from your kids. W have it to them to use at your house to talk with her. So you taking it is changing her rule through them rather than being united with her about the expectations. You shouldn’t be communicating these kinds of decisions through the kids if your expectations differ from w’s.

When the kids have/had free reign with the phone at your house, did you cap time with it? Did you set rules/guidelines/expectations? Or is it YOU who is doling it out like a gatekeeper?
42 1,064 Read More
Surviving the Big D
9 hours ago
CMM update: Oncologist appointment today. Upshot is - he'll have a biopsy of some additional nodes within the week. If those are positive too, then he qualifies for a clinical trial. The trial involves chemo first (and hopefully he'll get in the arm with Avelumab, one of the newer immunotherapy drugs) followed by surgery. My hope is that perhaps he might have a really good response and that the subsequent surgery might not have to involve taking the whole lung (note: this is MY hope, nobody is holding this out as likely, but I still think it might be possible). He's decided to do the surgery even though it likely involves taking the whole left lung and has a significant risk of dying from surgery (5-8%).

I'm working on getting him to send an update on his medical condition to his girls. He doesn't want to "burden them". I have to help him see that they deserve to know and the burden of him dying on them without them understanding the urgency of his condition (and hopefully reconciling) is not acceptable.
68 1,168 Read More
For Newcomers
9 hours ago
Thank you for the responses, I really needed to hear it. I didn't respond right away because I needed time to analyze it.
At first, I was actually thinking what she said was a good thing. After reading your responses, it helped me to wake up and realize that I need to detach, and these last 2 days I have been doing that. My goal is to get to the point where I truly don't need her anymore. She still texts/calls each day for some random thing, but I wait 8-10 hours to respond and just use very short texts, and I never call. I feel like now I can get to the point that I really don't care about her anymore, and that is my goal. Afterwards if she comes forward and wants to try, great, I'll see how I feel about it then. But I realize she isn't coming back any time soon. Thank you all for the advice and strength to keep me moving forward smile
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For Newcomers
Yesterday at 11:59 PM
I'm so sorry you are here and for your sitch. It is very hard to feel stuck and to feel so low and hopeless in life. No one deserves this. No one.

I agree with the others tho. This is not a situation you can save. I say that without judgment of anyone's characters, but with sadness for you. Everything you are describing, including the ignoring, is abuse. You are basically defining what abuse is and how you feel is the result. You are a victim, however you are also the only other adult in this equation, and the children are powerless. They need to be removed from this sitch ASAP.

This is incredibly damaging to you and your son, and also to his daughter for having to whitness this. Please, please gather as much support as you can and end this. There is a better life ahead for you and your son and you will get there in time. Just be careful and smart about your exit.

It isn't your responsibility to save your H or make him happy, ever. It is time to take care of yourself and your son and you start by letting go of the idea of your H and seeing the reality of him.

I wish you the best.

16 288 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 10:54 PM
I wouldn't read too much into any ADHD stuff. They like to label and medicate. And besides, I get ADD when I'm bored.

You are going to hear this over and over and over. Read the detachment thread. Detach from your W emotionally.

GAL. Get a life. Seriously, get friends, do stuff. What do you like to do? Your W isn't detached from you either it seems.

Stop pursuing. It doesn't appear to have worked yet, so quit trying harder at what doesn't work.

Be that guy you talked about, fun happy, independent.

It [censored] that your work knows about it.
2 63 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 10:45 PM

Without respect, it is impossible for a woman to feel the kind of romantic love for a man that would underpin a marriage. Sandi2 has written extensively on this so i won't belabor it... besides, it seems self-evident. When a woman loses respect for her husband, she can become "wayward". She may actually even and often does actually "despise" her husband. This can happen for any number of reasons, but it can be addressed in the case of a WW who is in an affair by establishing good boundaries. Some particularly good boundaries are:

"I will not tolerate being yelled at or verbally abused."

"I won't get into an argument in front of the children."

"I wont share my bed (or, better yet, house) with a woman who is cheating on me."

All of these dynamics/events are things that can and obviously would tend to decrease a woman's respect, and, thereby, her desire, for you.

The consequences for violating these or any boundaries are up to you, but the boundaries should be clear, as should the consequences for violating them, and the consequences should be AUTOMATIC. Example: Wife starts shouting at you (for whatever reason), Consequence: You say "I won't be shouted at" or "I won't engage in a discussion with someone who is shouting at me" (or whatever), said in as cool, calm, and confident a manner as you can muster, and then you simply turn your back and walk away. Leave the house if you have to, but don't engage. The consequence of the disrespect of yelling at you is that she is deprived of your presence and the ability to continue the abuse. it gets a little dicier with removing her from the bedroom and/or the house, as you start to run into potential legal issues (you should know the law in your jurisdiction on such things) but, generally speaking unless something extreme is going on, you can't "force" her to leave. You can make her feel extremely uncomfortable and unwelcome and perhaps she will leave on her own, but bottom line is you may ultimately be the one to have to walk. Better if you can maintain ownership of the master bedroom, but not always possible. At any rate, the point is that you should have firm boundaries and firm consequences in place to enforce them when they are violated. You should read up on boundaries if you have not already.

The above is why it can be problematic to "confront" a WW who is having an affair. Once they know that YOU know, if you fail to act you can look weak, which can further degrade the respect dynamic. What woman is going to respect a man/husband who would stand for her seeing another man while living under the same roof?!?! And when a woman is in the throes of an affair, with the seratonin and oxytocin kicks and hits coming every so often, there is no way she is going to "break free" of that and return to a man she does not respect. No, for a WW to truly turn, she has to, as Sandi2 has written extensively about, suffer a "loss". In other words, she has to face the real-world consequences of her actions. One of those consequences has to be losing YOU.

This is why the dynamic in my sitch was so complicated. Me and my W had almost NO foundation for our relationship. She had no respect for me, nor did she have any reason to respect me. We could probably not even have been called friends. So, at the point of BD, "losing" me was not really any loss at all, at least not an obvious one. However, when i found out about the affair, and confronted her, she did cut off contact with OM for a brief period. So, even though i had not established firm boundaries with firm consequences, i was given a sort of reprieve. The problem was, without the respect, and without any other reason or plan to rebuild the marriage, she fairly quickly (about 3 weeks) fell back in with the OM. Thing is, and this is probably a blessing, I did not know she had. Oh, i suspected, of course, but i didn't say anything... told myself she was just going through a hard time. It wasn't until i found her burner phone about two months later that i knew. At that point, after having been told on this forum about "boundaries", i skipped merrily off to establish mine. "I will not share you or live in an open marriage" i said. But that was about it. No transparency plan, no accountability plan, no statement of definitive consequences if she saw OM. We then went through about a two month period where we danced around the issue, with her still doing things like staying out late with the girls (sometimes where she would see OM, i came to find out) and engage in other WW behavior (though we were also going to counselling during this time). I ultimately discovered that she HAD been seeing and talking to OM, and shortly thereafter discovered her second burner phone. At that point, I walked out. And this had a DRAMATIC effect. She wept, asked me not to go, promised to go to counselling, said she had just needed time, etc.. This time, however, i was more prepared. "You want to reconcile?" I asked. "Fine". If so, I am going to have some boundaries, and there is going to be accountability, and transparency. I stated my boundaries clearly and defined what the non-negotiables were: 1) No OM in any way shape or form 2) No girls weekends with bff 3) no post work wine-downs with male doctor and his secretary 4) etc. Any further transgressions and i was done. I would walk. And, by this point, we had actually started to re-establish a connection, to realize that we liked each other and spending time together, and, most importantly, she had seen my GALs were permanent and that i was resolute in the face of disrespect (remember she did not KNOW that I was aware of her cheating for a period of time, yet did nothing.)

From that point on there was a steady improvement in things between us on multiple levels, though there was still a barrier between us. She hadn't quite gotten over the hump. I found out in Late March of this year that OM had been contacting her regularly by phone at work, despite having been confronted by me AND told by her not to. She had been entertaining his calls, though she had not been seeing him (of this i am certain.). But even this alone was enough to keep her from fully giving herself back to our relationship. When i found out, I walked. I was done. And she knew i was done. If not for our counselor, who is just the best, that probably would have been it for us. She brokered a reconcilliation and... here we are.

The lessons and takeaways from all of this? Whew, IDK, lets see... prolly some I'll miss:

1) Know youre situation. Know what you want. Know what you can and cant live with. For me, I knew i wanted to try to save the marriage, and I knew i could take her back after infidelity. What i didn't have a good grasp on was my situation and its implications for reconcilliation. I knew nothing about WAWs or Wayward Wives or how they behaved and responded, nothing about boundary setting, and, really, i did not have a good idea how hopeless our situation was. Later on in the counselling process but before the final blow up and commitment to reconciling, in one of my individual sessions, I filled out a battery at the insistence of my counselor that sought to identify "marital satisfaction." year by year. The scoring parameters indicated that a level of satisfaction showing 10% or less of the married years as "very satisfied" or better were almost hopeless in terms of reconciliation. I scored between 15 and 20%, and i guarantee my W would have been at 10% or below. Had i known more about the WW phenomenon, i certainly would have taken stronger steps early on to set boundaries and reclaim my self respect and possibly her respect. OTOH, had i realized how fragile and ungrounded our MR actually was, that might have indicated a softer tack. At any rate, things turned out well for us but, i think, mostly by the grace of God. My point here, is that knowledge and self-awareness is power and strength. Be informed and be aware and use what you learn. Which brings me to:

2) Respect. Is there a respect void that needs to be remedied? Has your W been habitually abusive to you verbally? Nagging or denegrating to you in front of the kids? That should be addressed. Is there still an affair? Does she know you know about the affair? Act accordingly.

3) She has to experience the consequences of her actions. She has to experience loss. Divorce and affairs are messy, messy, nasty business, but every single WW, without exception, thinks they will ride off into the sunset with their AP, that their kids, family and friends will be perfectly allright with it, and that no one will hate them and that they will live happily ever cheating after. She needs to find out how wrong she is. This means that if she screws up, you let her screw up. Don't cover for her or make excuses with the kids (This doesn't mean you necessarily "out" her affair, either-- that can be a very dicey, harmful, and messy proposition, and doing so or not doing so is fairly controversial... but you can let her take the heat for being late or messing up or whatever without spilling the beans and, if she gets caught by them with OM well.... on her. Dont cover for her.) If you are the primary breadwinner, then you do not subsidize her activities that might tend to serve her affair (hair and beauty expenses, gas to go see OM, etc.) Most importantly, she needs to see what it's like to lose you and to lose her happy family (assuming it ever was happy.) sandi has also written extensively about this, so i urge you to read and reread her stuff.

4) Dont get discouraged. There is always hope, even if it is a slim one, and, while you need to decide how long you think you can "give" her and this relationship, know that it may not take as long as LH19 and some others indicate. Every sitch is different. Mine took 14 months from BD to truly starting "piecing", and that was starting with a nearly hopeless marriage and with me making many missteps along the way. And if you want to be generous and say we were kinda sorta piecing by last August (the time period where OM commenced his regular phone calls), then it was only 7 months. I am somewhat torn on how to view it because i would say that she and i did in fact make some very real progress on reconnecting in that August to March timeframe. But, then again, my sitch was kind of weird and unusual in many ways. Point is, it doesn't have to be, and often is NOT, a "period of years", although it admittedly can be. It all depends on the individual dynamics, how you play it, how much time you give it, etc. At any rate, yo need to keep the faith, and "do you" as much as possible.

Did you know that every counselor out there (prolly even MWD, too) has a "losing record" in terms of saving marriages? Nature of the beast, man. When we reach this point, things by definition tend to be pretty hopeless. But DB-ing is as good a system as is out there anywhere else, and one of the BEST things about it, one of the reasons it is SO good is that it focuses on YOU. What can YOU do for YOU. How YOU can have an awesome life, with OR WITHOUT your current spouse. That even though there may be pain and tears now, during the night, joy can come in the morning.

Keep the Faith. And God bless.

(Also, last note, if you havent', look up the lighthouse poem. it is pretty good stuff. Be the lighthouse.)

Just one more thing: Sandi2, if you read this and i have in any way done violence to your opinions/positions/theories, please please please correct me. Youre help has been invaluable.

Speaking of which: Anyone know where Sandi2 is and if she is okay? Haven't seen her or artista on these boards in over two weeks.
52 755 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 10:15 PM
A bit of an update. Anna got engaged about a week ago. Apparently she has been in an on again/off again relationship for a number of years and the other guy found out about me and decided he needed to get serious. This is why she got weird with me a couple months ago. At first I was disappointed, but now I find it amusing. So it's time to see if I am really okay and not just using thoughts about another woman to cover everything up. So far so good though.
66 4,023 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 10:03 PM
You find something else to do. Then tell her you're busy. D's will say "I wish Dad were here!" WAW has to deal with that as a consequence of her decision to separate.
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Surviving the Big D
Yesterday at 09:58 PM
Ohhh kaaayy - I'm getting more freaked out now.

I've work from home on Wednesdays since forever and after work today I decided to go out for a walk like I often do. I took a slightly longer walk - about 7 1/2 km vs my normal 4 that took me out of the village and past the farms. It's a fabulous day here and finally not boiling hot.

About 2km from the village I come up to a stop sign and start crossing the road. Who is at the other side in her very unique vehicle? My ex. I look up, see her, look away ignoring her (I usually wave at everybody whether I know them or not) and continue on. She turns towards the village.

That road only leads into my village from where she lives. She could have been coming in to the store here but that's pretty unusual I would imagine. If she were going anywhere else on the planet, she would have taken a different route.

This is the first time that I've encountered her "in the wild" in about 2 years.

If we want to put on our tin-foil hats, S24 could have told her that I was out and she might have popped over for whatever reason. If we add another layer of tin-foil, we could suggest that S24 has shared the GPS tracking logins and she knew where I was.

Le sigh.

On a more positive note, CL responded to a random question I had posited to the universe on Facebook so she is obviously not annoyed at me. I probably won't text her tonight (must resist!) as she has church on Wednesdays until later in the evening. The test I'm running for work is just about done and I promised S24 fresh biscuits (from a mix) tonight.
56 1,280 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 08:27 PM
Now she is screwing up the collaborative divorce process as if she actually wants to go to court. What a psycho. I am moving out in a few days. I can't take this anymore. My lawyer can take it from here.
64 1,472 Read More
For Newcomers
Yesterday at 08:17 PM
Making use of work schedule and our forced half day Friday's. Coordinating with oldest D to come visit her and my three Granddaughters. Solo trip. W wants space and not willing to make trip before when I tried to set up. Her loss. My memories.

Yeah... wish it were otherwise. Part GAL for me. Part consequences of sitch.

Long drive but have done it before and going to have the time to not feel rushed or be driving after work.
45 842 Read More
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