25 yearsMLC 10 years late I FILE part 2

[OwnIt]

25--my H was mildly selfish and sometimes lazy without a lot of ambition. Seven or so years again that stuff began to ramp up. Now he is insufferable. Naricissism becomes worse in stress and times of crisis.

I too am in the same place of just wishing that I could resolve the financial end and have some finality. I don't think he'll let me unless another woman stays around long enough to force him to do it (but even then he hates being told what to do). Mine never mentions any of the women on FB. Just creepy love poems and the like. Shots of places he must be talking with them about visiting. I think that's because he knows none will work out and he doesn't want to look like a flake.

Leahsue's story is why I have not and will never file D from this man. When he wants it, he'll file for it.

Sadly I think yours is going to fight you to the bitter end. Unless he really wants to marry this woman. Maybe that will cause him to see if through. If so, that is nothing but good for you at this point. I guess my point is to let go of who he has been for the last 35 years and see him for who he is now. He doesn't have your back and will do horrible things to hurt you.

I agree affairs aren't the worst. In my case it is the hot and cold with the kids and the way he royally screws with their emotions. I fear that mine will struggle as Leahsue's have.

[Coly23]

Wow, just been reading along and I am in awe of all you ladies. You have been through so much and still put up with a lot from your H's yet you stand strong for yourselves and your children.

These men have no idea what they have and are giving up!

[exquisitetobe]

As crapy as this will sound, a marriage to OW would actually soften the blow for you. He would want things settled as fast as possible. He would still give you a hard time but as the court papers are concern, he would want those signed and over with.. in my situation, OW' s pressure on ex-h was a blessing for me.

[bigybiz]

Hey 25 -I saw the letter you posted on Cali's thread and I have a question for you. I did not want to hijack Cali's thread.

In the letter you posted it basically stated the WAW feels that 6 months of super/reformed/remorseful husband is not going to make up for the years of neglect etc. That I understand.

After the BD, and hearing what my W feels is the source of our undoing etc - I wonder if she will ever realize that she had a role in the R issues too?

My W neglected and rejected me too. During the months of R talk - she always had a way to justify it. Further, she did not like the MC telling her that she is too blame too.

Would the author of that letter ever let herself believe that it takes two to tango?

I'd love to hear your thoughts

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=bigybiz]Hey 25 -I saw the letter you posted on Cali's thread and I have a question for you. I did not want to hijack Cali's thread.

In the letter you posted it basically stated the WAW feels that 6 months of super/reformed/remorseful husband
is not going to make up for the years of neglect etc. That I understand.


1) Do you really understand? I'm being sincere. It's very easy to say, but a lot harder to do. To face our own roles in the demise of our m is usually devastating.

And what the WAW wrote there, was that after just 6 months of her h's alleged personal work, she was only beginning to believe the changes without scoffing,

NOT that the changes had overcome the pain she had felt for so long.

(Nor do I believe that it can "make up for" the harms done).

Without going into a martyrdom detail, zno matter what my h does or says and even the most genuine REAL changes in him, will ever undo the damage done by missing years of our children's lives. It cannot be our goal to make things "even." How could we quantify it?

No couple can agree on their marital history fully, but sometimes all that matters is their view of the future, agreeing on where to go from this day forward.


I have been brought to my knees facing my own role in the demise of our m and to the damage I allowed or caused to our children for a decade. It's profound humbling.

It is humbling but it is not humiliating. There's a difference between humility and humiliation.

Many people (including my h) do not know this. The shame of poor choices and what feels like humiliation to my h, probably precluded him from facing the trail of destruction his choices created in his life. He created the very alienation in our family, that angered him. He probably cannot face it.

His issues, his disappointment in his life, his unresolved childhood issues, his r's with our children, his treatment of me, were burdens to me.

As I let go of his issues and his r's and his problems, I feel freer and I feel kinder, better, healthier and more at peace. His issues should never have been in my sandbox. And now, they are not.

Besides, I have so many of my own struggles, grief and debris in my sandbox, I'm in no position to harp about his.

My belief is that genuine Humility is key to self awareness and then change. It's NOT the same as humiliation.

After the BD, and hearing what my W feels is the source of our undoing etc - I wonder if she will ever realize that she had a role in the R issues too?


I'm not familiar enough with your situation to know the answer to ^^this.

Here is my gestalt of your stance...I think you fear that your failings equate to you being a POS and therefore you cannot stay with the pain of acknowledging them, and the remorse it causes is too scary to face for very long. So you are compelled to rotate the mirror back to her when it hurts to look in it for long,

My gut says that you have a "scorecard" that measures her sins in order for you to feel on a level playing field. It is a scorecard you need to get rid of. Scorecards are always destructive in marriages.

Plus, here's a Newsflash - Your wife - 1) she has her own scorecard, and on hers, you are way behind,
And

2) Plus, she's not here trying to save the marriage. You are.

So trying to get her to see & count her wrongs at this point, is self defeating. Maybe it stems from a need of yours to cope with the humility and possible shame you feel about your role. Don't wallow there in shame, b/c people who cannot bear to look within, have the tendency is to lash out at others and say "No, it's YOU not me..."

Try to convert the shame into a healthier useful awakening, get back up, dust yourself off and step forward.

If your w has had years of unmet needs to which she's now awakened, she may feel the way I do. Which is that I'm NOT interested in changes h can claim to be making (and claimed to make a decade ago). Or maybe does make.

I believe I'll never feel the same about him. *Even though I also say "never say never"* And I have 2 family members who remarried their former spouses FWIW.

Hypothetically, if h were to repeat his recon efforts of 10 years ago, and say he wanted the m to work,

BUT THEN if he were to tell me what MY role was in this situation, after all the personal work I've done, versus zero on his end, honestly, I'd probably laugh, scoff or throw something at him and keep moving...


Between me and you and the thousand of readers of this site...as for MY ROLE? YES I OWN MY ROLE and I'm still working on that. I've had a great DB coach and now have a great T. I have to face How i was silent and complicit in bad choices, ask why I didn't enforce boundaries (fear, probably) and whatever I was hiding from, carping with snarky rewards at times, and blending into h's dreams so much that I am discovering mine now...

BUT i'm working on that with my therapist, not my h. I have amends to make as a mother, to my kids. Not to h.

I'm not here to "make my m work" with a man who just won't get it, b/c when he has had his moments of clarity in the past, they did not result in lasting change. So my interest in spending more years of my life hoping it'll all be worth it SOMEDAY...well I'm not interested in that..

My W neglected and rejected me too.



1) Is she here on this site trying to stay married? No she's not. So how does your scorecard help you with your goal? (It does not). I have the feeling that if you admitted you had a temper problem in the marriage, for instance, that you'd bring up times she lost her temper, before the session was over.

That^^ type of interaction is why a lot of MC's sessions end up being bitch sessions and just rehashing old arguments getting nowhere.


Why not clean your own sandbox and stay out of hers? What if you modeled what self awareness, & humbled personal growth look like?


During the months of R talk - she always had a way to justify it. Further, she did not like the MC telling her that she is too blame too.


If she justified it then it sounds like she's not ready to own her role. So drop it, and show her what a confident man does when he sees HIS errors. A confident person can admit to dropping the ball and not believe it makes him a POS. And a confident person won't apologize AND THEN wait for it to be reciprocated. That's not an apology that is a tactic to "even things out".

Either you are sorry for what you did/said, etc, or you are not. HER reaction is irrelevant. And worrying about it at this point is soooo counter productive if you really want to reconcile. Do you, or do you want to not be the rejected party?

I'm sincerely asking you, to ask yourself.

Finally look,

Your w wants out of the m. So, She's not interested in returning to the marriage she left,

UNLESS

she believes that it can be a better/different marriage than before.

It's your job to show her that it can be better/different. How are you doing that?

So either let go of worrying about her own issues till later...or decide you don't want to be married to her.

But to vent about her issues and when she's going to see your side, when she'll work on her issues, the 2 to Tango, etc etc

Is very counter productive at this stage, imo.

[25yearsmlc]

Would the author of that letter ever let herself believe that it takes two to tango?

I'd love to hear your thoughts [/quote]


FYI I did Not write that letter. So I can't speak for the author. And since I don't know your situation or wife enough, I cannot predict what she'll do. I don't know what steps you are taking that your w can see and feel are real.
If she doubts the changes won't last, then she's afraid of a backslide into a marriage she wants out of, and which hurt her deeply.

Sure It takes two to make a marriage work. I doubt it's often 50/50, but I think it shifts from 80/20 at times, to 30/70 and it ebbs and flows...both ways.

I happen to think it can take just one to ruin a marriage.
Regardless,

Boils down to why YOU are here. It is not about her. She's not here. I'll repeat that for emphasis. It's Not about her.

Are you here to do what you can to become the best version of yourself, and hopefully save your m as well,

OR

to get a verdict about who shall be assigned the higher % of blame, & who is more right??

Sometimes we worry that admitting our mistakes means someone will kick us when we are down, OR that those mistakes equate to us being unworthy of being loved. A fear of rejection is closely linked to shame. Hence the terror some have of admitting our errors.
I'm not sure how forgiveness was modeled in your childhood home, or what it looks like to you. But I think it's important.

In any case, why are you here now? If you are here to work on yourself & improve as a h, then why make this about your w? (Or the author of the letter?)

I kept a copy of that letter b/c the author made great points. The guy to whom she addressed it, really took it in and changed his paradigm. His name was Denver.

After personal work and some changes, Denver was actually indignant and increasingly angry that she would not take him back after his changes and he started to ponder HER failings...but fortunately he came here first.
In time and with an inward journey, Denver came to see that he was not "entitled" to another chance.

He stopped making the recon all about when his wife "should" take him back and he definitely stopped worrying about her doing her work. He was just humbled by the insights shared by the author of that letter (whose name escapes me at the moment) and humbled by a brave look within. He faced his own Sandbox and got in it to do real work.

Once humbled, a transformation took place in Denver.

Denver bravely faced some dark things in him that he did not want to face. He didn't like everything he found. But he chose to look at them anyhow, he chose to address those dark pieces and to expunge them from his heart. He changed. He came to know and love himself a lot more.

It's such a gift to see the miracle of spiritual awakenings lead to profound change in someone. It certainly has helped me face mine. I am grateful for this site.

I have attended some scary personal growth workshops that changed the trajectory of my life. I have gotten great therapy, had a Godsent DB coach. Now I am okay with screwing things up - in the sense that admitting them does not make them worse.

It's only by seeing the truth of where I am, that I can change where I'm going.

Denver wondered out loud whether he simply wanted to "win" his wife back, so as not to be the rejected party
VERSUS truly loving the woman he'd married.


According to Denver, he become a MUCH better man than he ever would have been, were it not for this ordeal.

He fully faced his truth as a h. He admitted that he'd been neglectful of his w, often critical, complacent in the m, and sometimes worse, off and on for nearly 5 years of their m. In sum, he really did "get it." And he worked to change those things about himself.

Bigy, Denver KNEW his w had issues of her own. Heck, We all knew. But his work was HIS WORK....so he stayed in his sandbox and he kept out of hers...

Later, when he showed his w thru consistent changes, over time, that he was the man she'd always wanted him to be,

it was then that she began her own journey and her own program and she too, was humbled.

To my knowledge, they are in a restored marriage.

Speaking for myself, I find it liberating not to worry about what my H is doing or if he realizes his part, or will ever know the pain he caused, or work to repair it, etc. I don't know if he'll ever face it or shoulder it or own ANY of it.

I do know that I spent way too much of MY LIFE wondering about that^^.

I never had control over any of it anyhow. And, I could have spent all that time on improving myself.

It's just so freeing to know that h's issues & awareness, or lack thereof, are Not my problems.

I have enough to work on in my sandbox.

Make sense?

[Cadet]

I have to face How i was silent and complicit in bad choices, ask why I didn't enforce boundaries (fear, probably) and whatever I was hiding from, carping with snarky rewards at times, and blending into h's dreams so much that I am discovering mine now...

BINGO
This is the most important thing in making a new relationship.
SO whether it is with you your old spouse or someone new if you dont fix yourself you can not hve a great relationship in the future without this.

[25yearsmlc]

Yes this is true.

Very true and it's a lot of what I'm working on with my new T. I asked her for the type of T that checks me. Not just letting me talk and hope I glean from the universe, etc.

And not the type that says "whatever feels right or good, do it!"

I want to lead a morally good life BECAUSE that helps me be happy.

DATING vs R QUESTIONS

I know I'm not ready for a "relationship". I hear that generically and "never marry the first R you date. Never..."

I hear this from T's and it makes sense b/c I'm obviously angry at h and not totally detached.

Must I be totally detached to be in a R? I think so.

I think I have to be detached from h in order to have a R...but maybe to just share a dinner and movie, maybe I don't require total detachment? Just can't bash h all night b/c If I'm doing that, I must not be ready for any fun.

Guys, I'm not experienced with this. Obviously.

I really do not want to have fear in my next r. Don't get me wrong. Of course there's fear in love b/c you are taking a risk with your heart. I get that. But if it's really not right, I'll walk.

There are lots of things worse than being alone. (So far I'm not hating living alone, btw. Maybe around the holidays I will? I don't think I'll borrow trouble from the future right now. I had dinner with a neighbor last night, btw. Lunch tomorrow with high school friends. And seeing my T, and doing divorce pooperwork.

I know I'd rather be alone - than wish I was alone.

And I know we all have to work on lasting r's. Yeah, i think we know that.

There's a difference though. I see mediocre r's around sometimes and IF there are no kids and no marital commitment or long history then WHY??

There are no ties and it's like inertia has just taken over. A very close friend of mine is in a r with an obvious impasse. NO sexual compatibility and one partner pays NOTHING towards expenses, even after 6 years and yes he works. She says those are deal breakers...6 years of deal breakers, and no marriage and no kids.

Man, after all the - hard a$$ work I have put into this m, and all the years, the decades. the thousands of nights without a lover or coparent or friend in bed with me b/c h's hours were unrelenting...i'm just not up for someone with major baggage. Not over 40....

I want an honest, kind man (who gets my jokes- b/c I'm friggin' hilarious)...and a bit of chemistry would be delightful.

Is it too much to ask they have NO glaring flaw or deficit from childhood that he has not worked out by the time he's in his 40's??? B/c i'm thinking, No thank you kind sir, No thanks...

is ^^^this being too picky of me?

I know I will NOT be shamed again, since that comes from within us. Our concern about how we are viewed by others.

SHAME and fear of blowing it.

In terms of blowing it, I'm not really the type to move too fast. (OR at least I never was before.) So the "blowing it" would mean we discover an incompatibility and that's not really blowing it. it's finding out you're not well suited. That's important to know, right?

I mean, what's the biggest challenge in dating after a painful divorce (as opposed to the fun painless divorces)??


QUESTION, my son30 asks me questions and we talk like we are friends.

I'm not totally comfortable with ^^that. It's new. I'm still the parent. He's very mature, and protective and angry at h.

S30 said for me "stop being incredulous that h's playing dirty." Ouch

So I just wanted feedback on that change in parent child r, which I'm not okay with, at least not yet. WE get along well, to be clear.

And I ask you guys for some prayers folks, b/c the status hearing that was supposed to be pro forma in the morning, like in 12 hours,

has turned into a surprise attack from h's new lawyers (tundra based) and his CA lawyer joined, I suppose. It's morphing into a big thing for H to lower support payments (he's never paid them BUT THEY'RE TOO HIGH...)

he quit his job to avoid paying...incredible.

I also found evidence of some major hiding of money 5 years ago. There MAY be a reasonable explanation for it (truly) but I just cannot think of one. It says business account for services rendered...I cannot decide if I want a legit reason for themoney being there, which likely means its gone OR if I want it to be there so I get half.

But that means' he's been psycho lying for 6 years???

Lovely...
Yikes I am rambling because i fear the hearing in the morning..


but I'm so overdue for sleep. Good night to my journal audience feedback, fellow travelers, and DB friends...

May we have a good, even lucky day this monday.

xoxo

[Cadet]

Is it too much to ask they have NO glaring flaw or deficit from childhood that he has not worked out by the time he's in his 40's??? B/c i'm thinking, No thank you kind sir, No thanks...

is ^^^this being too picky of me?

I want to know why you are picking out 40's.
Why not 50's or 60's?

Personally I think I went through some things in my 40's
I know I got very angry and yelled a lot during that time period.
Not something I do now at all.
So just curious since you and I are close in age why you are using 40's as a line in the sand?

QUESTION, my son30 asks me questions and we talk like we are friends.

My children are of a similar age and they are starting to treat me in a similar fashion.
Possibly because they are more adult like at this time.
Certainly right this minute my children are both more successful than me in their careers.
Maybe they just think they know more than they really do.

I guess it is more about them than it is about us and they feel protective of their parents.

It is a good question that you have asked though.

[25yearsmlc]

I used 40 b/c that was the youngest I could imagine.

Unless it's that guy from Game of Thrones...I'd "date" him (and he can't be more than 25).