180man Thread 3

[25yearsmlc]

I always like the phrase, "if I had it to do all over again, I'd do lots of things differently"

and if she mentions a specific example of her being hurt by your action/inaction and IF You think she has a point

you say "W, I'm sorry that I hurt you. I can see that now & I regret that".

If she has a bone to pick with you that you really do NOT feel is valid, do not argue.
That is b;c Challenging her choices only forces her to defend them more.

Instead, if it's a crazy revision of marital history or you really don't believe her, instead say "W I don't recall it that way (at all?) but I'm sorry if I hurt you." And move on...

Once you apologize for any specific, Just be ready for her possibly probing about WHAT you are sorry for, (checking whether she believes you are "getting it")

which I would take as a sign that she is not indifferent-

in which case you need to address the porn issue and that you are "working on" delving into the things in your sandbox...

And be the one who exits first if possible.

Good luck, take deep breaths and consider this to be a military recon mission, listen and gather intel

I'm a veteran and so is my stbx. I understand the unique aspects of what deployments and moves (& oh the chaos) do to families.

Hang in there

[LITB]

You have already apologized. No need to apologize again and ask for forgiveness. It just brings negative feelings to the surface.

Don't encourage these types of interactions. Work towards positive interactions with your W.

I went deep into the archives to extract an analogy for you. Perhaps you have already read it. In any event, here you go.

PICNIC ANALOGY:

Imagine that the WAS is inside an impenetrable castle. WAS is deep inside the castle walls and has no desire to see the outside world. WAS has his/her own world right there inside those cold, stone walls.

Then there's you. You're sitting on the other side of the moat (drawbridge is up, btw). You've got a nice blanket laid out on the cool, green grass, and you're enjoying yourself by having a wonderful picnic all alone. You're absolutely content with this, and aren't even concerned with the castle and the WAS within (in fact, you've got your back to it).

Eventually, WAS gets a little curious about the what's going on outside the castle, and decides to take a peak over the walls. WAS sees you, just sitting there enjoying yourself. He/She is surprised, because previously you had been throwing rocks at the castle, singing and dancing in hopes of getting their attention. WAS is wondering what you're up to, and why you're so content. After a while, WAS decides to lower the drawbridge and join you at your picnic. WAS sits down, and you just act as if -- you're happy, confident, etc. Suddenly, WAS realized where he/she is and what he/she is doing, and it scares the hell out him/her. WAS jumps up and dashes back to the castle for no apparent reason. You however, didn't even budge or flinch. WAS peeks back out to see what you're doing, and notices that you're still sitting in the same place, enjoying yourself without concern. Again, WAS is surprised, and eventually comes out again. This time WAS stays a little longer, but again gets spooked and runs back. However, you're still not deterred from enjoying your picnic. The WAS's visits begin to happen more and more, and they last longer and longer. Once he/she realizes that there is no risk for him/her (i.e. that you won't bring up the R, pursue her, get angry, become needy, etc), WAS begins to reflect on things, and begins questioning his/her choice to go to the castle. In time, WAS decides to bring up the R, and this is when you can discuss it with him/her because WAS is ready and has initiated the talk.

THIS is why it is important to avoid pursuing, because it gives the WAS the opportunity to miss you, reflect, see your changes and strength, etc. So, the next time me or anyone else tells you to just enjoy your picnic, you'll know what it means. This is a term that we used a lot this summer, but it kind of went away. I think it describes the pursuit dynamic perfectly. Don't chase the WAS back into the castle and hold him/her captive by standing outside the walls and trying to get his/her attention. As long as this is the case, it is likely that they'd rather starve themselves in their than come out.

[180Man]

Okay, thanks to both of you for your posts. The neighbors made me a little more drunk than probably is necessary but I read both of your posts in full multiple times. I understand what you're both saying about the castle/moat/picnic and the bones/marital-history.

Deep down I feel like I will [censored] it up, that she has already moved on and nothing I say or do will matter. But...I hope I can keep my shít together for an hour or so and leave her with at least a somewhat positive experience.

Thank you to both of you. I will be up early reading through my notes on what I want to say. I'll definitely be interested in any last minute thoughts you may have. I'll try to get another post up early tomorrow.

Thank you. This woman means the world to me and even though we are all just anonymous people out there on the internet, I really appreciate your help. We were supposed to have kids and a life ahead of us and if that ever happens we will definitely be in your debt. Until tomorrow...thanks and goodnight.

[25yearsmlc]

I LOVE The picnic analogy LITB!

Good luck 180...

if nothing else, Please present the image you want her to have of you when she leaves, and when she looks back on this moment. (And She will).

this is of course, NOT a time of pleading...

saying you'd "do things differently" is not an apology

(unless there is something new you didn't know about, which she reveals, but don't get bogged down in her laundry list of justifications. Sometimes you play these meets by ear, in case she may actually reveals something deeper or new & meaningful,

then you listen, and man up if need be.

But since you are NOT asking her for justifications or pleading, I doubt that will occur.

Try to have a decent conversation and build from that.

Use the picnic analogy.

[180Man]

Thanks 25yearsmlc! She has said several times since BD that she is willing to answer any questions I have to give me closure. I haven't asked her anything because for a while I thought I knew everything, I thought I had the situation all figured out. I think maybe my brain had to think that way initially just to survive the shock. But I do have fault in this and I am going to own up to it. I have been sitting with the dog this morning just going over my notes, not rehearsing but just trying to capture all of these thoughts in my head so I remember to say all of the things I want to say.

She wrote this to me in December:

I want to apologize for not speaking up about how I really have been feeling. I thought I was doing the right thing - not saying anything about how I was feeling so that you could be happy. What I didn't realize was that I was doing the exact opposite of helping our relationship. I know now that - if I'd said something 8 months ago, we probably wouldn't be where we are today. And I can't pretend that I wasn't - to some degree - motivated by my own cowardice when I didn't speak up. It was easier to just keep quiet and pretend that everything was fine.

And so when I told her I finally had questions, I sent her that and said "I want to ask what those things were that you wanted to say eight months ago. What did you want to tell me that you felt you couldn't? How were you feeling at that time? How were you feeling this past year?"

I saw an article this morning and this quote stuck out at me:

If you want to re-marry the person you divorced, stop talking about all the problems of the past. Instead, focus on forming good habits and building goodwill. This is contrary to the advice of many marriage counselors, who will have couples discuss in depth everything that’s wrong with the relationship. But experiences with this type of counseling is one of the reasons some couples got divorced to begin with. It just makes matters worse.

I hope that is what we manage to do today. I do not want to plead or ask for justifications. I want to forgive and hear her feelings and listen......and also I want to not fùck up and push her further away, if that's even possible.

Thank you everyone. I have to leave in about an hour to go meet her, but I will check back before I go.

[25yearsmlc]

the advice you have in that box, is pretty much DB

b/c working out the underlying issues and how she retained her resentments probably b/c she has few conflict resolution skills

well, this is NOT the time for that. Plus as a military person, we take or give orders. We don't build consensus...

listen to her, and don't say you forgive her UNLESS she specifically asks for it.

Be a man only a fool would leave. The guy she fell in love with, ONLY more mature...

Good luck

[180Man]

Okay, this is what happened.

We had some nice small talk about work, we walked down the boardwalk a ways and continued the small talk. We finally found a place to sit in the shade and I asked her what her earliest memory of us was. Surprisingly, she had the same memory of meeting me that I did and she described it -- I did not know she remembered this short meeting. I picked up from there and told her my side of the memory. This is what I said more or less:

"I distinctly remember meeting this beautiful, intelligent, fiery, and spirited woman. I also distinctly remember how I felt when I left. I remember being sad. I felt sad that I met this extremely interesting woman and had no legitimate excuse to go back and see her. (Due to the circumstances we were in at the time, it would have been strange for me to show up again.) But I continued seeing you around and I developed a crush on you.

Later we were coincidentally assigned to work in the same place for several weeks. I remember having such a crush on you and trying hard to make you laugh and impress you. I remember hanging out with you during our downtime and flirting with you. I remember meeting you in the middle of the night and, risking everything, being together for the first time.

I thought I would never see you again so I guarded my heart. I thought it was only inevitable the military would separate us. You showed me that we could make it work, despite our circumstances. During that time I took you through an emotional roller coaster. Here was a man who you loved but was resistant and guarded. You tried to get close to me and I hurt you. You tried to dedicate yourself to me and I lashed out at you when I was fearful. You must have felt hurt on many occasions, but you pressed on and continued to give me second chances.

When you agreed to marry me you entrusted me with your heart. You gave me your heart to keep safe and I didn’t. For years you have tried to share your heart with me and I neglected you. You would come home from a long day at work and want intimacy with me and I had already fulfilled myself with porn. You must have felt so rejected and unloved. You tried for years to improve our relationship and I did not participate. You encouraged me to read the five love languages with you and I didn’t. You were trying to work on us and I caused you to feel unloved, like a roommate.

You gave our marriage your all for a very long time and I caused you a great depth of pain through the years. In my depression last year you probably felt alone, neglected, unimportant, and hurt. I can’t believe what I did to you and how I made you feel. I did what I wanted, gave little thought to what you wanted, and made you feel insignificant. When you were spending long days at work, you came home to a dirty house and an empty dinner plate. I sat on my computer all the time and I ignored you. You did all of the laundry and cleaned the house while all I did was complain. You must have felt abandoned. I did not cherish you as I should have. If I’m really honest with myself I was more interested with what I could get from our relationship than what I could give to it.

I am flawed. I have been forgiven for so many things in my life. I have hurt many people over the years and a lot of that I did to you. My hope is that one day, not today, but one day you can considering forgiving me.

You shared some writing with me about how you felt like you couldn’t come home until you got this black lump out of your stomach. That you wanted to suffer in peace. That you wanted me to have time away from you to see you for who you really are without the illusionary power of your face in front of me.

When I look at our relationship and look at you, it's not tied to every single infraction you've ever committed, I see you for who you really are. You are the most generous, giving person I’ve ever met. You are the kindest, gentlest, loving person I've ever met. You are truly a good person and I am the luckiest man in the world to have found you.

I'm not going to lie, what happened hurt me deeply. I was angry for a long time. But resentment is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die. But I made you vulnerable to this by neglecting you, taking you for granted, and by being self-absorbed. I made you vulnerable.

I cannot live questioning your whereabouts or whether or not you sincerely want to talk to me or see me. I can't and I choose not to. And I don't want that for you, either. I choose not to be tied to the past and to constantly have to rehash it. Anything that occurs between us going forward is on a clean slate. I want to be able to live with each other in the present.

I forgive you."


And then she said that she had forgiven me for the mistakes I had made. She thanked me for forgiving her. She said she felt we were best friends and great partners but we were not romantically suited for each other. She said we had grown apart.

I told her I agreed with her that we were best friends and great partners but suggested that I didn't have the tools before...I didn't understand the mistakes I was making. I suggested that we were strangers before and even though we have grown apart, it's possible to know each other again.

Then I asked her about how she had been feeling this past year, what were the things she had wanted to tell me before about our relationship but felt she couldn't? And she said that I had really just described it perfectly. She felt I understood now what the problems were.

I suggested we walk back to the cars. We made small talk. She brought up church and said she wanted me to be able to attend in person again (I had been watching their online stream to avoid crowding her), especially since she's going to be gone so much. I decided to take the opportunity to tell her I would be going to church tomorrow and would like to see her there. We made more small talk as we walked back to the cars.

We got back to the cars and I gave her some paperwork -- updated car insurance, new tags for her license plate, and some misc mail. She asked me what she owed me and I told her not to worry about it, that I was still her husband and would take care of her. We hugged and I said maybe I'll see you tomorrow. She said she'd have to think about it.

That was it. She didn't mention divorce once. I called my friend on the way home and relayed all of this. I cried the whole way home. I am not ashamed of this. I love her. She did not show her emotions much today. I walked away from this feeling that she was over us. But she had the opportunity to decline church and didn't. I guess I cried because I don't expect her to come. Because I have missed her so much. Because I want to see my best friend every day and I haven't seen her in such a long time. I feel like jumping off a bridge. I know I am viewing this as half-empty. But I also know her. Or I used to know her. I'm afraid it's completely over and that tomorrow I will sit in that church surrounded by people, yet still...alone.

[25yearsmlc]

tomorrow's church is NOT the deciding factor. Don't even let that be a focal point.

I'd back off now.

Her reaction, given the givens, is probably the best you could have hoped for. There's a lot to build on (but don't point that out.)

She has a lot to process.

((( )))

[180Man]

It's not the deciding factor? If we had simply been dating and she didn't show up to church, that would send me a pretty clear signal wouldn't it? Is it different somehow?

I can back off easily enough, and you're right, it's probably the best I could have hoped for...but I feel destroyed on the inside.

I have one good friend who is really hanging in there with me, praying for us probably more than I'm praying myself. But the other couple of friends I've told are starting to tell me to give up and see the signs and move on. What if they're right? What if SHE's right?

[Thornton]

180,

Relationship talks when the WAS is distancing never turn out well. Believe nothing she tells you right now.

I'n my honest opinion, you have to back off and go dark my friend. Let her wonder about you. You told her what you needed to say and she didn't come around. That's ok.

Both times I got my WAW back was with complete and total no contact. She wanted out and I respected her decision (and I'm doing it now as well).

Perhaps the best way to show her you love her is by giving her what she wants to be happy. She wants space? Give her more space than she ever asked for. Let her wonder if you are moving on.

I know my advice goes against every fiber in your being. It does for me too. But you have to back off man. It's crucial in my opinion.