The reason I asked you is because I think you have what I refer to as directive anger (white) and the kind which has drive and determination.
For instance the desire to improve and win at pool. On my part it is more than idle curiosity.
I like modelling success, it has created some good shortcuts for me. In this aspect I can spot success. Drive determination and will to succeed.
This isn't whimsy for me. I think in order to recover from my complex PTSD then I may need some of this style. It won't be Zues like more Vanilla style.
I am drifting, as RD says I observe that I take the blame and responsibility for too many things.
It's the serenity prayer that needs fulfillment,
Higher power grant me the Serenity to accept the things I can not change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.
I have the courage to do it but not the drive, and the last part has me completely fooled!
V
From Zues
Originally Posted By: Zues126
V, I've reread your last few posts. I couldn't find a clear question, it looks like you were just curious about my thoughts on these musings.
I'm no anger expert. If anything, I am on the other end of the spectrum. I never knew I was angry. In fact, I was so angry that I disassociated. In my teens I thought I was Mr. Spock, above emotions, detached, and just regarded everything with a scientific curiosity. But just beneath the surface the fires raged, hotter than the sun. In the last few years I've learned to let it burn, and I have learned to be ok with it.
The other night I had an angry outburst with my children. No need to go into details. But I'm sure it made them uncomfortable, and I'm sure XW would shake her head and think "You are scaring the kids, this isn't good for them, they should feel safe", blah, blah, blah. But you know what? I think it's all garbage. I have maybe 2-3 outbursts a year where I get a bit tweaked for 5-10 minutes, my kids might be a bit uncomfortable, but you know what, that's ok once in a while. The world is full of adversity and it's ok to be tough enough to handle a raised voice once in a while. As long as they know they are loved and aren't in danger.
So that's where I live these days, letting my fire out, and managing through it the best I can. Yes, anger has given me a lot of motivation to change.
But is that really the only way? In the example of a kid being bullied, is anger really a requirement to take action? Are the only options to get angry, or to stand around passively like a cow chewing her cud? I don't think so. Take a look at Ghandi. At Buddha. At Jesus. I don't see any of them getting angry at their oppressors, yet they all changed the world. They had compassion, empathy, brotherly love for those around them. Yet they acted out of this love for the love of their understanding of the greater good.
So there you go. I think some anger is fine in moderation, as long as we manage it so we don't hurt those around us. I think it's healthy to be in touch with your feelings so you don't hide the anger, convert it into something else that's easier to identify with at the expense of distorting your own innards. But if you have truly lived a lot of life and simply don't get worked up easily...that's fine too IMHO. Motivation can come from passion just as easily as from anger. I've seen your works on abuse, I've seen you reach out to help others. If you are unmotivated, I wish more people were as unmotivated as you.
If I missed the point you wanted my opinion on please clarify the question, but that's my first reaction. Take care V!
From V to Mu
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
My post from Mu thread
-------------------------- Mu this is how I experience anger.
Clear red anger, as in ready to strike when I am being physically attacked. This is physical and against another, kung-fu fu fighting anger. Such as when a mugger tried to take my handbag, I bit him.
Dark Red explosive spitting anger with tight stomach knots, reactive screaming banshee. Always outwards towards another such as in response to WH ranting at me. Illogical rants and quite childish. 'So there'.
Black storm cloud erring volcanic anger, volatile murderous anger for battle. Depersonalising others. Completely out of control. Attacking. Never had this and always I fear WH is on the edge of it. It always seems to me this is a 'male' style of anti social, personality disordered type of anger.
Pink shimmery glisening anger , constant lower grade blaming the world type of anger, never goes away. WH rails against the world, wrong bacon, apple juice rant, blame blame blame, blame.
Grey-green smooth but sticky passive aggressive, revenge type anger, I will get you before you get me. Sabotaging anger, not really my style but my friend has it. Get you back first type, make your suffer even if you don't know it.
Bile green anger and snot textured, judging others constantly, my mother has this in spades. Getting irritated about who others are. Disliking them for any reason, race, orientation, politics, size, wealth etc etc. WH goes to this big time. Hidden envy? Exclusion.
Bumpy slithery itchy scaly misted glass anger under the skin directed at self. Self harming, blaming, mutilatino, picking scabs, turned inwards anger. Not my style either in general.
White directed clear transparent anger, drive motivation and direction. Get things done and righting wrongs. Get to the gym style, becoming the one only a fool would leave. Get on with it. Winning, Olympic gold. Solid determination.
Light breeze misty directionless slightly irritated with no focus like looking through a glass with no substance. Emptiness. V more afraid although that's not it either. Just nothing. Where I am situated floating, tackling things, can be focused although usually treading water.
I think we need anger for direction.
This is my way of looking at anger Mu. My lack of white anger is holding me back.
V
There are a lot of very interesting observation actions about anger on my last thread, from Painter, RD and sunny. Mu and Joe.
--------------------------
So my question Zues is this
How are you creating and using directive anger.
Mainly I want to know because I find you excellent at it and it's a skill I want very much.
That's why I was so vague probably because I am not sure how to achieve that.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Little yellow house sittin' on a hill That is where he lived That is where he died Every Sunday morning Hear the weeping willows cry
Three children born A beautiful wife Four walls and livin's all he needed in life Always giving, never asking back I wish I had a simple love like that
I want a simple love like that Always giving, never askin' back For when I'm in my final hour lookin' back I hope I had a simple love like that
My momma was his only little girl If he'd had the money he'd have given her the world Sittin' on the front porch together they would sing Oh how I long to hear that harmony
I want a simple love like that Always giving never asking back When I'm in my final hour looking back I hope I had a simple love like that
I want a simple love like that Always giving never asking back When I'm in my final hour looking back I hope I had a simple love like that
Alison Krauss
My song for aged pa.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Thanks for the compliment V. There is some good and some bad. For now I'll focus on the good.
I have learned a few patterns in my life, formed by a few core beliefs. That my life is about manifesting my potential. And that I have been given tremendous gifts and nearly limitless potential. Deep down I feel if someone else can do something, than I can do it too. And that it would be accepting mediocrity to do anything less than my best, and settling for less than what I'm capable of triggers a deeply rooted distaste, I suppose this would be white anger.
I have heard it said that there are two different motivations that competitors have. Some want to beat everyone else. Others don't want to be beaten by anyone else. They sound the same, but they are different. I am in the second category. I have no desire to beat anyone, or to prove that I am better than anyone else. But by God, I cannot accept the idea that anyone will beat me, or will prove better than me, and I will not allow that to happen. If the result ends up that I beat everyone else, well, so be it.
But where did this come from? Can it be learned? I don't know V. I'm not always sure if it's a blessing or a curse, but it seems I have always felt this way. I know that I was raised in a high pressure environment. Named after my grandfather who was fairly famous and exceptional in many ways. I was supposed to follow his footsteps and do some amazing things. And I was always talked to about my 'potential'. In my family if you did something nearly perfect, you'd be questioned about why you weren't perfect. A classic example was when one family member got a 96% (24 out of 25) on their driver's exam. They needed 80% to pass, and only half the class passed, this family member passed with 24 right on their first try, highest in their class. This prompted a dinner conversation about the question they got wrong, wondering why that mistake was made. And so on.
I can also tell you that I was the youngest of 5. My four older siblings are 3, 4, 5, and 6 years older than me. And whenever we played games I always lost. I was always beaten. Everyone was always bigger, smarter, faster than me. I couldn't keep up. It was very difficult for me. I lost so much to my older sister, it drove me crazy. It made me feel insufficient to my soul, and I was determined to beat her. I devoted my life to competition, and I trained relentlessly for many years. It's almost like another deep motivator of mine is to not be bullied. Not bullied by others. And not bullied by my own fears and doubts. I have a lot of doubts, voices telling me I'm not good enough, it doesn't come as easily to me as to others, no matter how hard I work I'll never be as good as them...to that voice I reply "I don't care what you say, you can't trick me into giving up. I know that if I maintain my focus on the results I want, make optimal decisions, try my hardest every day and every moment to do the best I can with what's in front of me, and never, never, never give up, there is nothing you can do to stop me, the only way you can stop me is by tricking me into thinking I am not going to get there, but I will never lose faith, regardless of how horrible I feel, or whether I go years without sign from the universe that I am on the right road, I know that if I keep taking one step after another that NOTHING can stop me, and in the end I'll get to my target". It's almost like my life is a battle against my own fears and doubts.
I've met thousands of pool players and thousands of sales people. I'm not sure how much is learned vs. how much is innate. As a hiring manager I quickly learned that the idea of recognizing people with potential and trying to develop them was a failure. You needed to recognize people with drive to use their potential. The funniest interview question I ever asked was "If I have 100 people in my department, ranked from highest to lowest performer, where would you fit in?" You'd think that in an interview people would all say "at the top". They DIDN'T. Some people would say "top 10%". Others would say "top 20%". Some would say "at least in the middle". I was shocked at how honestly they answered. And you know what? They were telling the TRUTH. For the most part. Those that said top 20% would end up about average. Those that said top 10% would end up in the top third. Those that said they wouldn't accept anything less than being #1 would usually be top 10%. And those that said they'd be at least average I would never dare to higher. Isn't that funny? People thought they'd get credit for honesty, but I need people that want to win! (Incidentally, when I joined the company I wasn't asked this question, but at the end of the interview when I was asked if there was anything else I wanted to add I looked at my future boss and said "Just so you know, if you hire me I would come here for no other purpose than to be your #1 performer in 2009". And you know what? I finished #2 out of over 100, and partly because I was in training January-March and couldn't overcome the lead, but I passed everyone else from way behind in the 2nd half of the year).
So out of curiosity V, how competitive are you? Out of 100 people, where would you be ranked?
I have thought a lot about motivation. I think to awaken it there has to be a connection to one of your deep, deep beliefs about what's important in life. You can't just decide to care about something for no reason. You have to uncover reasons, and tether it to your primary drivers. So let me ask...what are your 2, 3, or 4 deepest beliefs about what life is about? What's most important to you? What would you like to be remembered for, the 'tombstone' test? And what, exactly, would you like to be more motivated to do? Is there any way to link them up?
White anger has hurt me in many ways as well, I have been out of balance a lot of my life as a result. But I am happy with who I am, and love using the gifts I've been given. Yesterday I played pool all day, and did some things that were nothing short of peak experience. I was in the zone, emotionless, dialed in, feeling nerves in the cue stick practically...but driven as well. There is an excerpt I'll end with from "The inner game of tennis" that talks to the importance of white anger:
My own attitude toward competition went through quite an evolution before I arrived at my present point of view. As described in the last chapter I was raised to believe in competition, and both playing well and winning meant a great deal to me. But as I began applying the principles of yoga to the teaching and playing of tennis, I became noncompetitive. Instead of trying to win, I decided to attempt only to play beautifully and excellently; in other words, I began to play a rather pure form of Perfect-o. My theory was that I would be like a yogi, unconcerned with how well I was doing in relation to my opponent and absorbed solely in achieving excellence for its own sake. Very beautiful; I would waltz around the court being very fluid, accurate, and "wise."
But something was missing. I didn't experience a desire to win, and as a result I often lacked the necessary determination. 1 had thought that it was in the desire to win that one's ego entered the picture, but at one point I began to ask myself if there wasn't such a motivation as an ego-less desire to win. Was there a determination to win that wasn't an ego-trip and didn't involve ail the fears and frustrations that accompany ego-trips? Does the will to win always have to mean "See I'm better than you"?
One day I had an interesting experience which convinced me in an unexpected way that playing for the sake of beauty and excellence was not all there was to tennis. For several weeks I had been trying to get a date with a particular girl. She had turned me down twice, but each time with what appeared to be a good reason. Finally a dinner date was set, and on that day as I finished my last lesson one of the other pros asked me to play a couple of sets. "I'd really like to, Fred," I replied, "but I can't make it this evening." At that moment I was informed there was a telephone call for me. "Hold on, Fred," I said. "If that call is what I'm afraid it is, you may have yourself a match. If so, watch out!" The call was what I'd feared. The excuse was a valid one, and the girl was so nice about it that I couldn't get angry at her, but as I hung up I realized I was furious.
I grabbed my racket, ran down to the court and began hitting balls harder than 1 ever had before. Amazingly, most of them went in. I didn't let up when the match began, nor did I relent my all-out attack until it was over. Even on crucial points I would go for winners and make them. I was playing with an uncharacteristic determination even when ahead; in fact I was playing out of my mind. Somehow the anger had taken me beyond my own preconceived limitations; it took me beyond caution. After the match Fred shook my hand without looking in the least dejected. He'd run into a hurricane on that day which he couldn't handle, but he'd had fun trying. In fact, I'd played so well that he seemed glad to have been there to witness it, or as if he deserved some credit for my reaching that level-which of course he did.
But anger couldn't be the secret to ego-less tennis, or could it? I hadn't been angry at my opponent or at myself. I was simply furious in such a way that it took me out of my mind. It enabled me to play with abandon, unconcerned about winning or playing well. I just hit the damn ball, and I enjoyed the hell out of it! It was one of the most fulfilling times I'd ever had on the court.
The key seemed to be that something took me beyond myself, beyond the sense of ego-trying. The kind of trying that Self 1 does to feed its self-image was gone, but in its place was a strong, unwavering determination to win. Paradoxically, winning at that point mattered less to me. but I found myself making my greatest effort
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
My first answer was not at all. In fact I don't compete I don't need to I am a one off.
Largely that's true. I have specialised so there are so few who do what I do.
I was born lucky, a private education and an IQ just below genius level, and good looking enough. Being a woman in business in the 70s wasn't easy, I worked hard and applied myself, I believe in self determination. And yes I have been the biggest cheese on the cheese counter.
So I guess you would say, yes I am one of the ultimate competitors, even now I will not give up or give in. I compete mainly with myself.
So my answer to your question would have been, "let me alone and the score tables won't apply, I will develop a new business model for you".
I have made more money for businesses than their whole sales forces put together. Leveraged returns, designed leading products. Even for some international names. One organisation was so afraid of me that they locked me out of their building for fear I would uncover a major fraud.
That sounds so unlady like and arrogant. I would rather not say it, just do it.
I guess I don't see limits much. Competing takes energy which takes one from your goal.
There is no limited cake mentality, a sense that if I have no 1 others get less. I believe in growing the cake.
I am going to review your other thinking, thank you Zues.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
So I guess you would say, yes I am one of the ultimate competitors, even now I will not give up or give in.
While you're thinking, I'm curious...why is it so important to you that you never give up? What would giving up mean to you?
To me it was about the 'bullies' winning, mainly my own self doubts, personified at times by other people around me. But I'm curious what that means to you.
I, too, feel I am mainly competitive against myself, but others show me what is possible and therefor they set a bar I don't allow myself to fall short of.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Giving up means what my higher power wants isn't going to happen.
With WH i havent given up on thoughts of an R for my twightlight years. I have let go of WH as the other in that R though. I made a mistake, i misjudged so I will adjust.
I would rather find another way to achieve what I want to achieve.
My Fins are failing and I will adjust and change, turn this tug boat around.
The PTSD Has me in retreat at the moment, I will keep going.
15 years ago cervical cancer was a death sentence for me, I am still here. One doctor told me that in the chemo trial I was on I was the least likely to survive in my group. I am the only one left. That isn't competing, I wanted all the others to succeed.
So giving up has never been an option, when my time comes my higher power will move me on to the next phase of existence and I will let it. They will have to push me from this world and pull me from the next. I will not go willingly.
The tombstone test? I do not want a legacy of any kind, I do not want to be remembered, I don't want a memorial or a tombstone. I will want to be free of this existence and on to the next. To be scattered to the winds, to return to the earth, whatever parts of me can be recycled of me for others they can have. I hope others will remember my kindness and carry some strength in it. My higher power will decide and I will have so little say in it. I doubt history will find me remarkable. I am comfortable with that. My threads will be expunged.
This isn't enormously Zues like and sounds defeatist although I my thoughts are different. I find the world a wonderful place to be, I am blessed indeed.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
