He loves me he loves me not

[JulieH]

zues, I also hope more then anything that your analysis of my husband is true.

You are right. It's hard for me to see the positive.. That he did not file or start a new relationship. He said he needed space. He said that he did not want to live. (Not that he was suicidal) that he couldn't survive without leaving ( he was having serious cardiac problems..that I always tried to help him with). I did not hear this. I only saw the negative...that he left and caused me tons of pain. My family has demonized him and he cannot understand it.

Actually, it's hard for me to see the positive but it's harder for me to stay committed to the positive when my emotions (feeling rejected, hurt, vilified, conned) take over. This is really what I need to learn.

Thank you for this perspective.

[Zues126]

Zues, you said that you wrestle with your anger as well. I am wondering if maybe my anger at husband is simply a way to blame him for my unhappiness, because it's the easy thing to do. and yes. It is controlling.

Oh yes. I had some fiery furnaces burning within me. If I had been around the Shire, Frodo wouldn't have had to trek across the Misty Mountains to find a way to melt down the One Ring if you know what I mean. (I am having SO much fun reading that to my kids I had to work that in)

The funny thing is that I, too, would be considered calm and reasonable by my friends. It's like it was all super deep in me. Really- my anger was directed at myself. Perfectionism and feelings of inadequacy that drove me to insane levels. Then W got too close to me, and the umbrella of protection that I gave to the rest of the world no longer covered her. She was part of me in my own mind, and so I'd start holding her to the same standards I'd hold myself to...and treating her the way I treated myself. Mercilessly driving because it had to be better.

I've learned since then that I have to fix how I treat myself. There is no way to be abusive towards myself and treat my partner compassionately. What is done to the self is done to the partner. If I moved to the Sahara desert, my XW would have had to live in the heat with me. If I moved to the arctic, she'd have had to freeze with me. Well, when I decided to take up residence in the 7th circle of Hell, I brought her there with me.

And once I moved out of Hell, well, my soul is no longer on fire, so I am no longer desperate to have her comfort me. I'd LIKE a partner I can be intimate with in many ways...but the desire for connections that aren't possible in this world looks more damaging than inspiring if it leads me to judge, criticize, and not appreciate the damaged, frail, and limited connections we can actually achieve in this world. Perfect is the enemy of good.

Easy for me to say. I'm the single one talking theory. You're in the middle of the storm. But you're tougher than nails, I wouldn't want to bet against you.

[Painter]

Wow, there is so much food for thought in what you wrote in these two posts, Zues.

I have to think more about this one: "And frankly while I wouldn't have left her, I wouldn't have left her because maybe I was so dependent on the pain killer that I couldn't have, and that my so called 'values' and 'standards' I hold myself to are simply disguises of my neediness."

[JulieH]

Right now, I get to relive my youth reading the kids Roald Dahl. Laugh out loud funny. Like some of the funniest books I have ever read funny. I look forward to the fantasy and sci fi phase I am positive they will eventually love. You worked frodo in there well. Lol (I actually never read the last book of the lord of the rings trilogy. And I like that genre! )

I can relate to regretting how you treated your spouse. My husband would tell me that I had patience for everyone else but him. He also complained about how hyper critical and negative I was regarding him. I told him " I'm like that with myself" and he acknowledged that I have never been satisfied with anything about myself and how crazy it was. He also said he doesn't want the kids to be like that. I agree. He blames it on my parents and said he feels bad for me and how I was raised.

I have been learning to accept and laugh at some of my imperfections. But only some.

Perfect is the enemy of good. I like that.

[Zues126]

I started with Roald for my kids as well. Danny the Champion of the World is a cool story. He has a way of making ordinary life rather mystical. Glad you're finding some good times in the middle of this.

Thanks to all for being so conversational about such hard stuff.

[JellyB]

Zues, thank you for your post.

I understand that when I discuss my anger with friends and family, of course they side with me and husband comes across as a villain. It won't help me to have everyone agree and clamor on with "you go girl" speeches. So I appreciate the honesty and no kid gloves necessary.

Very interesting analysis on venting and negativity. I also understand that my rants and anger seems to be cyclical. Meaning that nothing good is permanently coming from it. It's not just venting since it's the same old stuff over and over (even im sick of it) It's negativity. Which is a major issue for me. I owned it early on in my threads but have never been able to overcome it. During my first conversation with DB coach, she asked me what my husband's complaints about me were and I told her, negativity. It's how I was raised.

It's not permanent. But during certain moods I become overwhelmed by it. (Kind of like when your in the heat of an argument and you just forget to validate or use dialogue or visual imagery) Sometimes discussing gets me out of it. Your perspective helped get me out of it because it allowed me to see husband as I once saw him.

It feels better for me to not be consumed with anger, but calm and peaceful. I can think more clearly and i look forward to life and the future. But I don't know how to make it happen on my own. I talked to a couple of counselors about the break up and they kind of just agreed with me like the "you go girl" friends and told me I am entitled to anger and to accept it and that I don't have to justify it by bringing up husbands point of view..that they were supposed to do that. You also have to understand that in person, I come across as very sweet and believe it or not calming, So I can understand therapists approach. I don't go anymore.

Zues, you said that you wrestle with your anger as well. I am wondering if maybe my anger at husband is simply a way to blame him for my unhappiness, because it's the easy thing to do. and yes. It is controlling.

Julie,

I hope you don't mind if I provide some reflection on yours and Zues' discussion. You both have this well handled and my offerings are meager in comparison.

I support the path that Zues is highlighting to you, he knows his stuff inside out and backwards. Salute Zues!

There's a couple of sentences that jumped out at me:

Sometimes discussing gets me out of it. Your perspective helped get me out of it because it allowed me to see husband as I once saw him.

I am wondering if maybe my anger at husband is simply a way to blame him for my unhappiness, because it's the easy thing to do.

There's a couple of Zues' reflections to about pain killers that need to be read in context of the above sentences.


Just reflecting on some of your previous comments about you pursuing or seeking relationship conversations and your H not being a great conversationalist or shutting down conversation.

Julie I am wondering about the possibility that you are not so much angry with husband for causing your unhappiness, but more that he wont support you to resolve it.

Julie you have identified your own pattern of negative thinking and it being cyclical in nature, and that sometimes discussing "gets it out". Your writing back and forth with Zues appears to provide you with some relief from the negativity and sense of anger. Zues' understanding, compassion, validation, attention to detail and intellect appear to soothe you.

Is this what you are looking for from H? Is this your pain killer?

It seems to me that H doesn't provide the tool for you for which to self soothe or to gain personal insight about him or you. There's a few other things in there too that Zues has highlighted.

I feel like you are angry and resentful because he leaves you all alone with these bad feelings and was the one that you anticipated would never let you feel bad. He would be the one that would understand and make it all better. He would listen and love and support. He promised, he committed not to leave you all alone with these bad, awful cycle of negative feelings.

I could be way off track Julie, but just some observations that may have little value. Please feel free to ignore.

I'll leave you two this very healing conversation, with our lovely Zues.

PS Julie, I wonder if it is time to revisit a good therapist. And Julie my baggage with Mr Ex and Mr M looks very similar.


PS: I missed you while you were away, but so glad you got some down time.
Much Julie

Jellyxxx

[JulieH]

Jellyb,

I am always greatful for any reflection regarding my situation, especially reflection from you. (Which is never meager)

I have thought a lot about what you said. And yes, I think my anger does come from feeling stonewalled by husband. I do feel like he does not and never has worked with me as a family unit. We had separate everything. He made his own decisions entirely separate from me and when I complained or reacted he viewed it as me trying to control.

An example. He says he is going away for a few days.. Time comes and kids are sick. Instead of saying to me "hey, do you mind if I still go? You have work and it will be difficult". In which case I would say "you never get to go away, just go I will be fine". He doesn't say anything he just goes and I get mad. He doesn't even consult on the decision to take a trip. It is like that with everything and when I complain, it becomes me trying to control him.

We have never worked together as a team. If he had approached me with "let's go over a budget together and see what we need to live on our own and save" I would have tried to figure out a way to earn extra income. Instead he became resentful. Would say things like "other wives work full time.figure it out". And just sulked and gave me nasty looks. I remember going to one of his friends weddings and taking my car because of the weather. It had no gas. He pulled over and asked for my credit card, in which case I said I don't have it. He was annoyed, but paid cause he had no choice. But to me, it was so cheap and inconsiderate and not gentlemanly. (It was his friends wedding!). I am his wife, not a buddy. And even if I was a buddy that's pretty crappy. He earns 3 x my salary.

When he left, there was no communication. He would give me no answers. Whenever I asked what his goals were he became angry because I was pushing for answers. His therapist (actually our therapist who began seeing him privately after I stopped seeing her privately) told him not to answer my questions because it is not fair for me to ask. (When I was seeing her privately, she had suggested his lack of transparency could be a gambling problems, which it is not). I am afraid of therapists now.

Anyway for us to work as a couple it would require him to communicate with me and be capable of working together as a family unit. Then I would not complain. I am quite rational when someone explains and talks things out with me. Iam not afraid of being wrong or considering another persons perception of ideas. But I have to be approached with it.

The funny thing is he always says our problem is that "we don't communicate".

Side note: he is only child and very independent. Very mathematical, technical, and mechanical. He has absolutely no interest in the humanitiies. I am probably his complete opposite in that aspect.

Jellyb, is this a common family issue that you come across in your line of work? If so how do families navigate this?

[JulieH]

JellyB And Zues

I do often feel like zues can offer me my husband's perspective. Something that my husband cannot communicate to me and that I cannot see because I am so immersed in my feelings and world. His thoughts do help to make me intellectualize what's going on instead of viewing it based on emotions and then I no longer hate husband. I thank you for that.

When I do talk to my husband, I feel better about him and am willing to make compromises. But this past of him avoiding relationship talks and me pushing for them makes things akward, difficult, and not realistic right now.

I don't know if it is really how my husband feels, and I don't know if it is just something I grab onto because it is what I want to hear.., an explanation for what to me is very cruel behavior because it prevents the what I don't want which is divorce.

Either way, it's important to weigh things from all sides before making rational decisions.

How do you detach from the emotions to become more rational and fair? I also do t want to get walked all over either.

[Rouky]

I'm also interested by that question JulieH.

[Painter]

Julie,

Also being M to an only child engineer... I can relate to a lot of what you describe. For instance trying to go over the budget together. Annoyed: "If you can't handle it, I'll just take over that as well - in addition to everything else I do!" Um, no - it was just about both knowing what's happening financially and being on the same page.

I have noticed that H is not about compromising or finding win-win solutions. Any difference of opinion is a win-lose situation for him, it's about winning, not finding agreement or common ground. This has become worse over the years - at one point, I remember him using the phrase 'I see where you're coming from' if we didn't have the same view on something.

My impression is that he didn't expect us to continue to have differences of opinions throughout the M. It was supposed to have stopped at some point.