Mozza (4)

[Mozza]

New thread.

RECAP

First thread: Fresh separation: trying to play by the book (15 days: Oct 14 to Oct 28)
I arrived here about a month after my wife left. Thankfully, I had read other resources and started applying DB-like techniques.
- I was caught by surprise by the separation but aware of her complaints about the R.
- We almost broke up in 2009 when she wanted to leave under similar circumstances.
- I'm seeing a shrink and a lot of friends.
- I don't know if she has an OM, but she denied it when she left.
- Searching for an explanation: Was I too mean? too nice? hypomania? new job? bad friend?
- Weird request to change our D6's godmother to her bad friend.

Second thread: Mozza (2) (8 days: Oct 28 to Nov 4)
- OM confirmed through kid's stories on Halloween day.
- Very disturbed by her Halloween plans to go out in S&M outfit and get drunk.
- Went through a day of anger and a day of detachment. Both helped.
- Lunch postponed. Some testy exchanges with W. She's upset I can't take the kids on her birthday weekend.
- Taking some initiatives: returning the rest of her stuff, refusing to change godmother, no more stroller parking.
- W calling out of the blue to get support because D6 is acting up.
- Started a list of DB success stories.
- Decided to refocus on my faults rather than blaming W.

Third thread: Mozza (3) (7 days: Nov 4-10)
- OM confirmed by W in email.
- Listed reasons for the W's relationship with OM to last or fail. Badly received.
- Much GALing as usual, but need to scale down the S discussions.
- Strollergate. She'll park at the daycare, but I shouldn't have asked her to.
- Upset W by being late, lacking flexibility, responding slow or short, postponing lunch, my family not contacting her, etc.
- W having problems at work, concerned about losing her job. Tells me often about it.
- Trying to send her the remaining of her stuff at the apartment.
- Ended up on a kind of blind date without expecting it. No chemistry but went along to explore my emotions.

[MCS]

Hopefully it goes well. I've read through your posts and you and I think very similarly, I've gotten some good insight about my sitch from reading yours and the responses. At this point now that you are separated, as much as it is hard to swallow, any cordial interaction is better than no interaction at all.

[25yearsmlc]

Mozz,

to reiterate what I posted on your last thread, in case you missed it, there is rarely if ever, a reason to be confrontational. It's not just for women you want to seduce.

Also, I need to remind you that 5 years ago your wife wanted OUT of the M and you said you'd change. But you did not. SO you can't really tell HER she did not try or give you a chance.

Here's a post from a wife who left her h, and then wrote to another LBH here. The LBH here had said that he did a lot of personal work and made big changes (and I can attest that his changes seemed genuine). He was baffled that his wife would not return to him yet AND that she continued to have feelings for OM...


SEE if this letter could have been written to a guy here, by Your Wife.....



FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, [with his critical nature] you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________________
Me: 32, H: 32


Mozz, if I were you, I'd NEVER criticize your wife again. There is NO VALUE in that. You can tell her if she says or does something that hurts, but where is the place in a marriage for a spouse to be our biggest critic?? Nowhere in a happy m.

FYI, the LBH this WAW to whom this WAW wrote, actually DID reconcile with his wife later on. They had both dated others, including , an OM for whom she had developed feelings for... but eventually she did return to A NEW marriage with her h.

Meaning, they made some real changes in how they treated each other. He took the first step, and the second step, and the next 305843 steps...

why? B/C he was here trying to save the marriage; she wasn't. And because he put his score card down, for good.

Can you do ^^ the same??

[Mozza]

Lunch report: it went well.

It was just chatter, no R talk, no mention of OM. We talked about kids, books, work, GAL, etc. The OM appeared in none of her stories, not even the background. If she was delicate about her choice of stories, that's a step forward.

I was well dressed and she noticed my cologne. I was careful about my body language, to adopt alpha poses, taking space, spreading my arms and legs.

Halloween wasn't half bad as I expected. She got drunk, but came back home early and alone. She bragged about her greater tolerance to alcohol.

She's off her meds because she wants to be herself. She said it wouldn't impact anyone anyway and the kids are ok with it. She mentioned it's a time of self-discovery and I agreed, saying it was the same for me.

She complained about her boss at work, but attributed her recent difficulties to things that she can fix. Her boss is leaving this week.

I told her about a GAL activity and how a girl from a group I knew invited me. After she was unfaithful, I told her I had an opportunity in that group but didn't act on it. I never told her who it was and she always remained curious about it. I'm sure she was teased.

I mentioned involving the kids in my daily workout at home and she said D6 had mentioned it. "I didn't know your dad is working out. What else don't I know?!" and I replied "Oh nothing!" with an air of fake innocence and a wink. We had a good talk and laugh about that. She was surprisingly interested in the workout. I'm glad it happened at the end of our meeting because I left on a high note.

I find her stunningly beautiful and it can make me lose my focus on the conversation sometimes. I caught myself when it happened today.

I never criticized her and I didn't even provide advice. The whole thing was pleasant, if running a little low on steam sometimes, but without any tension. So overall, I'll give myself a pretty good grade. I live to see another day.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

Seems like you had a positive interaction with W.

I told her about a GAL activity and how a girl from a group I knew invited me. After she was unfaithful, I told her I had an opportunity in that group but didn't act on it. I never told her who it was and she always remained curious about it. I'm sure she was teased.

It seems that you're holding on to some self-righteous indignation about your W being "unfaithful" and throwing in a comment about meeting this girl and that you didn't ACT ON it. What did you hope to get out of this type of comment? That really got my attention as it came across as trying to compete with your W as which one of you has the moral high ground.

Be careful, buddy. Watch out for those subtle hints and actions that reveal your inner pain at being betrayed. Those come out as digs, snotty or snarky comments. In an indirect way, you did criticize your W with that ^^ above comment.

[Mozza]

Also, I need to remind you that 5 years ago your wife wanted OUT of the M and you said you'd change. But you did not. SO you can't really tell HER she did not try or give you a chance.

I had written my W a letter at that time and your comment sent me back to read it one more time. I have to admit that you're right to a great extent. The letter is something I could have written this year. I admit to wrongs that are very similar. I make promises that I could make today and that I broke in the last few years. It's not a pleasant realization.

I'm not in any place where I want to blame my wife, but I'll admit that in my heart, I still feel like I should have been told it had gotten back to a point where she wanted to go. At the same time, I'll admit that I'm not sure a warning would have had the impact that her departure has. I needed that shock to really be in a place where I'm willing to learn.

And that's the big difference this year. Last time, I did not educate myself. I just said I was going to change and relied on sheer will. This time, I'm seeing a therapist, I read T5LL, DR, others and I'm here. I reflect and write a lot about what I've done wrong and what I would change. I speak with friends and family about what they learnt. I think of ways to make any change last, ways to remind me of these lessons every year or more often even. I'm open to any suggestion to make a lasting change.

Here's a post from a wife who left her h, and then wrote to another LBH here. The LBH here had said that he did a lot of personal work and made big changes (and I can attest that his changes seemed genuine). He was baffled that his wife would not return to him yet AND that she continued to have feelings for OM...
SEE if this letter could have been written to a guy here, by Your Wife.....

Yes. Yes, it could have been written by my wife. I can completely understand the deep skepticism that she might have. The thick skin section is close to word-by-word what my W told me as she was leaving: over time, she had built a shell and now the feelings couldn't get through it. The only section that I doubt is that my W would think that I just want to win over the OM: I've been intent on reconciling long before she admitted to the OM and I never told her I knew there was probably someone. I know I'm not in it to win over him.

Mozz, if I were you, I'd NEVER criticize your wife again. There is NO VALUE in that. You can tell her if she says or does something that hurts, but where is the place in a marriage for a spouse to be our biggest critic?? Nowhere in a happy m.

Being separated and so powerless over her makes me realize that there's great joy in not criticizing. It's great to see the other person make their own way, to take responsibility, to avoid arguments. I sometimes think that DBing is not just a way to reconcile and piece, but to live in a M, period. The other thing that I realize is how criticism can seep into just about anything I say, without me realizing, but that she can feel it nonetheless. She's probably more hurt than I realize.

FYI, the LBH this WAW to whom this WAW wrote, actually DID reconcile with his wife later on. They had both dated others, including , an OM for whom she had developed feelings for... but eventually she did return to A NEW marriage with her h.

Thanks for including this ray of hope.

I told her about a GAL activity and how a girl from a group I knew invited me. After she was unfaithful, I told her I had an opportunity in that group but didn't act on it. I never told her who it was and she always remained curious about it. I'm sure she was teased.

It seems that you're holding on to some self-righteous indignation about your W being "unfaithful" and throwing in a comment about meeting this girl and that you didn't ACT ON it. What did you hope to get out of this type of comment? That really got my attention as it came across as trying to compete with your W as which one of you has the moral high ground.

Be careful, buddy. Watch out for those subtle hints and actions that reveal your inner pain at being betrayed. Those come out as digs, snotty or snarky comments. In an indirect way, you did criticize your W with that ^^ above comment.

In our couple, this anecdote was never understood as "the time I got the moral high ground" but "the time it became clear I also had opportunities". She's shown jealousy towards this episode, not shame. So, as much as I want to be self-critical and willing to revisit things, I don't think she can have seen criticism in this. It was much more likely seen as a sign that my GALing can take me to places where I have real opportunities to move on. BTW, the girl that invited me is NOT the one with whom I could have had an A back then. But thanks a lot for bringing this perspective. I appreciate the opportunity to think back on things I had settled in my mind.

[Mozza]

I'm in a good place tonight. Usually, I get more pessimistic about my exchanges with my W as time passes, but this time I feel better now about this lunch than I did just afterwards.

And so tonight I catch myself thinking: this thing (DB) might just work.

It's ironic to think so, two months after we separated, a month and a half after she moved out and a few days after she admitted to having an OM, and repeatedly making plans into the next decades that see us apart.

But at the same time, it's all going according to plan. On her end, I'm not surprised she moved out and I was sort-of hoping she'd be with this OM sooner than later. On my end, I'm making a lot of introspection, consulting, reading, spending time on myself, understanding my behavior, etc. I'm working on lasting change. And together, we manage to stay in good terms. Today's interaction is the baby step in the right direction that I could have hoped for. We're miles away from reconciliation, piece and a happy M, but we're right where we should be at this point in time.

I'll take the optimism for tonight.

[labug]

Mozza, after reading your response to 25 and Wonka, you mind read a LOT and then you make moves based on your mindreading.

Who is the real you without all the tactical maneuvering?

[Mozza]

Mozza, after reading your response to 25 and Wonka, you mind read a LOT and then you make moves based on your mindreading.

Who is the real you without all the tactical maneuvering?

I don't understand. I thought I was asked to read her mind in the questions above.

- Would my W have written this letter?
- Would she have taken that comment as criticism?

Sorry, I probably look difficult or thick...

This being said, yes, I'm not at a place where I act according to my own compass. I wonder what I can say or do that will get me back with my W. For instance, she just sent me a text about the Internet being down at her office and I can only wonder: why the heck is she texting me this?! And then wonder what response would have what impact on her. My instinct ("real me") is to reply immediately and engage in banter. DBing tells me that I should ignore her or reply something short in a little while. Perhaps it's a case of 80%?

I'm still reading the book and I feel that my whole strategy is not in place. I need to understand the 180s better and then list and implement them. In the past, I would be aloof if she texted me during the work day (and I had a only-urgent-calls policy). Being responsive, available would be a change. But is it time for that change? Just an example that I'm still finding my way around.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

Bug is absolutely spot on in her analysis of your recent post:

Mozza, after reading your response to 25 and Wonka, you mind read a LOT and then you make moves based on your mindreading.

Who is the real you without all the tactical maneuvering?

Please see bold for emphasis to Bug's ^^ inquiry.

I told her about a GAL activity and how a girl from a group I knew invited me. After she was unfaithful, I told her I had an opportunity in that group but didn't act on it. I never told her who it was and she always remained curious about it. I'm sure she was teased.

It seems that you're holding on to some self-righteous indignation about your W being "unfaithful" and throwing in a comment about meeting this girl and that you didn't ACT ON it. What did you hope to get out of this type of comment? That really got my attention as it came across as trying to compete with your W as which one of you has the moral high ground.

Be careful, buddy. Watch out for those subtle hints and actions that reveal your inner pain at being betrayed. Those come out as digs, snotty or snarky comments. In an indirect way, you did criticize your W with that ^^ above comment.

In our couple, this anecdote was never understood as "the time I got the moral high ground" but "the time it became clear I also had opportunities". She's shown jealousy towards this episode, not shame. So, as much as I want to be self-critical and willing to revisit things, I don't think she can have seen criticism in this. It was much more likely seen as a sign that my GALing can take me to places where I have real opportunities to move on. BTW, the girl that invited me is NOT the one with whom I could have had an A back then. But thanks a lot for bringing this perspective. I appreciate the opportunity to think back on things I had settled in my mind.

Bug and I rest our case about your "tactical maneuvering."

Do you SEE that at all now?

[Mozza]

What should I have done? It was my GAL of the day and she was asking me what I was up to. I mentioned how I got involved in this new activity that she never heard of. It was a coincidence that it came from a girl in that group.

[Little]

I'm not at a place where I act according to my own compass. I wonder what I can say or do that will get me back with my W.

I think what I've learned is that you can't do anything to facilitate this. This is up to your W and only your W.

All you can do is move on for you. Look like you're bound and determined to go forward with a happy life with or without W.

Your interactions with her should be friendly and polite for the sake of the fact that being miserable and contentious sukks for everyone involved.

Your GALs are for YOU, not her. You're becoming someone better for YOU. If she sees it and happens to like it, so be it.

[Maybell]

Did you need to mention the girl? All you really have to say is "New friends"

[labug]

^^^^agreed

[Hoju]

Is it really that bad that he mentioned the invite came from a female? I'm a young man but from my experiances nothing builds desire like the thought of being unattainable. I'm not seeing how this could be bad if it comes up casually and naturally, we are moving forward with or WITHOUT our WAS after all.

The guilt trip over the fact that he "could" have had an A but didn't was completely out of line, regardless of DBing or not that topic should never come up in a relationship.

[Mozza]

Did you need to mention the girl? All you really have to say is "New friends"

I didn't need to mention the girl, but I said it because it's a fact. Should I always avoid mentioning girls? Was it just wrong in this context?

I see that everyone is trying to explain it to me, but I still don't understand what's the problem. Let me try again, live before your eyes.

I told my W that I had joined an activity at the invitation of a girl who's in a group among which I once passed on a potential opportunity to cheat on my W. My W doesn't know if that's the girl (it's not).

Forum interpretation: It reminds her that I passed on the opportunity, giving me the moral high ground and subtly criticizing her for her R with OM and past cheating.

My interpretation: It reminds her that I have opportunities too and maybe I've reconnected with the girl with whom I considered having an affair.

I guess where I'm wrong is that I thought as I was saying it that it might make her jealous and I should avoid giving her any negative feelings outside of her own reaction to my new life choices. Is that right?

[Maybell]

Yes, you shouldn't be intentionally trying to make her jealous because that's a negative feeling and you want her feelings towards you to become more positive.

Also, which rule says "be mysterious" ? She doesn't need context if the context is going to be like you sounding smug.

If you are actually committed to the marriage, then you don't even NOTICE opportunities to cheat. Because you are committed and making a point of saying you passed on one makes it seem like you were tempted to, not because your W is important to you, but because you chose not to for some nebulous other reason.

Also, for a woman to hop into bed with a guy there has to be some emotional connection. Even if it's sort of weak. So your telling your W that you passed on an opportunity to cheat tells her as a woman that you MADE an emotional connection (ie emotionally cheated) with another woman but decided to pass on the sex part.

At the same time, you are insisting that she sever HER emotional connection with OM.



What do you want?

If I were you, I would want my spouse to see me as a great, reliable, attractive partner in whom it is safe to place my trust. That, and only that, is a good reason to return to a marriage.

What of telling her about the girl you didn't cheat with moves you closer to that goal?

Or do you have some other goal in mind?

[Wonka]

Did you need to mention the girl? All you really have to say is "New friends"

I didn't need to mention the girl, but I said it because it's a fact. Should I always avoid mentioning girls? Was it just wrong in this context?

I see that everyone is trying to explain it to me, but I still don't understand what's the problem. Let me try again, live before your eyes.

I told my W that I had joined an activity at the invitation of a girl who's in a group among which I once passed on a potential opportunity to cheat on my W. My W doesn't know if that's the girl (it's not).

Forum interpretation: It reminds her that I passed on the opportunity, giving me the moral high ground and subtly criticizing her for her R with OM and past cheating.

You told W that you passed on a potential opportunity to cheat with this girl. Why on earth would you SAY that to W? It just comes across as holier-than-thou to us here. What purpose does this serve to you, W and the marriage?It was NOT the Forum's interpretation that you passed on the opportunity. It is all in your head with erroneous mindreading.


My interpretation: It reminds her that I have opportunities too and maybe I've reconnected with the girl with whom I considered having an affair.

I guess where I'm wrong is that I thought as I was saying it that it might make her jealous and I should avoid giving her any negative feelings outside of her own reaction to my new life choices. Is that right?

Why would you want to make W jealous? How's that keeping the road home paved smooth? Why do you feel compelled to remind W that you have opportunities to cheat too??! That sort of pie-in-the-sky logic is insane at best! You DO NOT do things to get a reaction out of W. It does NOT work and it usually sets you back a while.

You do GALing because YOU enjoy doing them. Just for you. Not to get a reaction out of W. Stop looking in her direction, Mozza.

[Mozza]

At the same time, you are insisting that she sever HER emotional connection with OM.

I certainly hope she will, but I'm not insisting. I've never mentioned the OM since our separation (during the S talks, I asked her twice if there was someone and she denied it) and when she announced it to me by email, I merely replied "Thanks for telling me".

What do you want?

If I were you, I would want my spouse to see me as a great, reliable, attractive partner in whom it is safe to place my trust. That, and only that, is a good reason to return to a marriage.

What of telling her about the girl you didn't cheat with moves you closer to that goal?

Or do you have some other goal in mind?

I'm flabbergasted! My W cheated on me, then years later left me for a colleague, lying to me, and now I'm told I'm the bad guy because I told her I passed on a potential opportunity to cheat because I loved her. At the time, I told her because it happened months after she cheated and I had turned down her offer to have an A to make up for it. I wanted her to know that I was a man of my words and that I was committed to our M, that I was not faithful out of lack of opportunities but out of love and commitment. I'm very faithful, I'm even the subject of jokes by my friends (and by my W) because I don't notice beautiful girls on the street. I can't imagine she'd think of me as unreliable on that front. My W called me her "rock" even as she was leaving me.

This being said, I understand that it might have made her feel bad and that I should have caught myself before I mentioned the girl or the group.

[Maybell]

You're not the bad guy. What you're doing is ineffective.

But I'll ask one more time:

What do you want?

You need to articulate that very clearly before any more advice here will do you any good.

[Mozza]

Why would you want to make W jealous? How's that keeping the road home paved smooth?

I'm also curious to hear answers to Hoju's question. Is it a big no-no that the W has reasons to be jealous? Or is it just in this case that it appears to have been told to her with this purpose? (Again, I did not set out to do this, it came as a relevant comment in passing)

By the way, this seems like a huge mind-reading exercise! It is also very possible that my WAW didn't catch any of that. I don't know - we don't know - what she thought when I mentioned the source of my GAL activity.

You do GALing because YOU enjoy doing them. Just for you. Not to get a reaction out of W. Stop looking in her direction, Mozza

This GAL activity, as with all others, is for me. I didn't accept it to get a reaction from her out of it (it's not the kind of thing she's interested in). I did not contact that girl from the group, she invited me (again: she's not THE girl anyway). I did not try to bring it up at lunch, it was a natural answer to my WAW's question about my activities. I did not think in advance that I could mention that group. I realized it as it was passing my lips and thought about it afterwards. My fault, and I'll admit to it, is to wonder afterwards whether that made her jealous.

[Mozza]

You're not the bad guy. What you're doing is ineffective.

Thanks. Very true. I often think of DB as a method to achieve something, not a therapy to get at the bottom of things. It doesn't matter who's wrong or right, it's about achieving a goal. Thanks for the reminder and focus.

What do you want?

You need to articulate that very clearly before any more advice here will do you any good.

I want to reconcile with my W and the mother of my kids. I want to build a lasting and loving relationship with her.

[Mozza]

My fault, and I'll admit to it, is to wonder afterwards whether that made her jealous.

Let me correct that: my fault, even if it was unintentional, was to mention the group at all. It was a reminder of something that made her jealous and I didn't need to awaken bad feelings in her.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

You asked about our thougts on Hoju's questions. Here are mine.

Is it really that bad that he mentioned the invite came from a female? I'm a young man but from my experiances nothing builds desire like the thought of being unattainable. I'm not seeing how this could be bad if it comes up casually and naturally, we are moving forward with or WITHOUT our WAS after all.

The guilt trip over the fact that he "could" have had an A but didn't was completely out of line, regardless of DBing or not that topic should never come up in a relationship.

It is the content here....the operative word being "female" with the goal of riling up W's jealousy when a simple "had a great time with a group of friends" would have sufficed. One needs not to belabor through words that you're 'moving on' when one's detachment and GALing actions demonstrate this. Just do it. Be quietly confident in yourself.

Back to the "girl" comment. Here's how W would have seen it.

Mozza: This girl invited me out to this group activity. Ya know, since you've been unfaithful....I had an opportunity to cheat on you with her. But I CHOSE not to do so because I am morally superior to you! I am so much better than you. So there. Na, na, na., na...[with a smug look]

W: Geez. He's throwing it in my face and trying to rub it in my nose!! What a shumuck. He hasn't changed one jot. Whew...I am glad I have OM. Mozza is a real loser.

[Mozza]

"Research shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the most effective way to modify someone's behavior -- to get him/her to do more or less of something -- is to reinforce or positively reward that person when that individual is doing what we want him/her to do!" - Divorce Remedy, page 105 (section: Cheerleading).

I wish that more people preaching the DR gospel would apply it to the way they give advice. I used to think I needed to develop a thicker skin, that it's tough love, that only the results count. But reading this passage made me realize that the problem is not entirely in me being negatively affected by the critical nature of the advice I receive, but also in the way it is provided. I'm only human after all and I'm at my weakest.

I had a great lunch with my W yesterday and applied the DB principles 99% of the time, except when an unplanned comment escaped my lips and might have caused her to be jealous or guilty. Yet, the focus of the discussion has been on mind reading what my W might have thought of this comment and how I messed up months of efforts.

I had an awful, awful day. My W's departure hit me like a ton of brick, once again. It happens several times a week, if not every day. I was crying in silence on the phone with a client this afternoon. I just can't believe my life project is in the drain, that my love is gone, that I lost half my kids. This is the same problem I had in the couple: I look strong but I'm sensitive inside and I can't take as much as I look. Well now I'm showing it: I'm hurt.

This is not all about me: I've been around these boards where distressed people are begging some commenters to go easy on them, or literally to stop commenting. These are people too and they respond the same way our spouses respond to our criticism. We need to practice what we preach and encourage them in an effective way.

"What you focus on expands" - DR, page 111.

[CaliGuy]

Mozza ... I get it .. I truly do. I was in your spot a year ago .. that fresh sting .. it is brutal, feels like an elephant is sitting on your chest, you can not sleep , can't eat ... and any one little mistep is magnified.

Breathe .. take a step back, take a break from it for a little while.

Truth is, you are in for a long fight to save this M, put the focus on you, do things for you. There is a reason for this .. took me a bit to learn .. its a way to get your swagger back, and thats really tough to do when you have found there is an OM in the picture.

But the 180's the GAL, the Detaching ... its to put the focus on you, I think the 2x4's you recieved were to try to get you to not do things to get a reaction from your WAW, that's the big mistakes we all probably have made ... leave details out .. become mysterious.

Hang in there .. I wish I found this place shortly after my W left ... I could have saved 6 months of serious damage that I am now struggling to start rebuilding.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

If it stings, then look at the source of your hurt. Dig deep and you'll see the answer(s) right there. After several attempts to get you to see how "wrong-headed" you were in regard to the "female/jealousy" comments to no avail, sometimes making a much more pointed comment and/or analogy gets through one's thick head.

Most often the vets are able to pinpoint with fearsome accuracy what the real issue is at hand. And often times right on target. We are here to OPEN your eyes to what behaviors, patterns, and actions are contributing to the harmful effects on the WAS and the M.

This isn't Charm School for sure!

[Mozza]

How does that fit with the quoted research showing it doesn't work?

You did not convince me regarding my comment about the source of my GAL. I can see how it could have been perceived as a way to "brag" about being faithful. That's why I explained that between me and my W, this anecdote has always been understood as evidence of my commitment, a moment when she realized that I was also faithful by choice and love, not just for lack of opportunity. I explained that, even though she offered me to have an A as payback, I didn't want to put our M at risk for so little (I wasn't that interested in sex with other women), and I couldn't know how she would react (she's been cheated on before and it hurt her very much). The only (faint) interest she's taken in it afterwards was to guess who it might have been (I never told her). My W apologized for cheating the day she confessed it and I never asked her to apologize again.

Where you take such assurance that your analysis is always right, I don't know. I greatly appreciate the new points of view, I give them serious thought, I respond honestly because I only ask to change my views, which I often do. It's my ticket out of this hell and nobody knows me in person here, so there's no point in being too proud. As much as I've gained new perspectives, I can't just say "Yes yes of course" to every idea. There's no reason to become mean to convince me, especially in disregard of the extra information that I provide. But of course, the more I explain it, the more I act defensive and prove that I must be wrong. I can't win. Let's just move on.

But I'll say it one more time: I wish that some were more considerate in their way to generously provide advice on these boards. There are a lot of vulnerable people around here, with real names, lives and feelings. Let's follow the DB principles with each other.

/rant

[Mozza]

I finally had a quiet evening at home. It's been several weeks. I was really happy not to have scheduled anything. My GALing is becoming exhausting and not all that satisfying. I believe in balance and now I need a little more down time. Tomorrow, sports and an overnight guest. Thursday, nothing so far. Friday, my week with the kids starts and we'll take it slow for the first time in two months.

I think I was down today because I was high yesterday. That's how it usually goes, often within the same day.

[Mozza]

By the way, a close friend of mine, following my sitch very closely, asked me why I loved my W so much. He then gave me a long list of her shortcomings that I told him over the last few weeks through my complaining. I ended up having to defend her and explain my own responsibilities in the separation. It was really helpful and more about myself that I would have expected. Highly recommended.

[jim0987]

Hi mozza,

I know what you mean and we do need to reinforce the positives more. You did do really well at the lunch especially given where you emotionally are and how anxious you were leading up to it. It was a job well done.

I hope your goal is to be the best mozza you possibly can and I think that's where people were trying to help. Looking for the small consistent improvements that make a big difference (marginal gains).

Rather than look at it as you did said something wrong with the jealousy comment how about looking at it as there are alternative interpretations and perceptions and we have no way if knowing what your W thought. Mysterious is good because then there is nothing to misinterpret.

On a personal level I've found the stuff I fight or that hurts is because I know that on some level its partially true. I was once investigated at work for bullying someone (proven not true - I just gave him a poor performance review) - it worried me but didn't hurt because I KNEW there was no truth to it. If it hurts, if you want to defend yourself and fight back - then look inside and ask 'why do I care so much?'

I really am rooting for you and hope you turn it all round to get the life (and M) you want.

[labug]

So Mozza, tell us what you need from the people here.

Really think about why you're here.

[Mozza]

So Mozza, tell us what you need from the people here.

Really think about why you're here.

I'm here to find support to get through this separation, to reflect on its causes, to identify my flaws and work on them, to become a man only a fool would leave and, yes, to reconcile with my W if at all possible. I'm also here to support others in a similar situation. What I want is the mutual support, the original thinking, the solutions. What I don't want is the meanness. That's my boundary.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

What I am hearing you say in between the lines is that you're cherry picking what you want to hear and discarding the rest because it stings too much. And you really don't want to dig deep.

Defensive much?

Let me ask you a coupla questions:

-What kind of man do you want to be?
-What are your core values?
-What were some of the complaints that W voiced to you?
-Are you using GAL to just fill the void?

[labug]

So Mozza, tell us what you need from the people here.

Really think about why you're here.

I'm here to find support to get through this separation, to reflect on its causes, to identify my flaws and work on them, to become a man only a fool would leave and, yes, to reconcile with my W if at all possible. I'm also here to support others in a similar situation. What I want is the mutual support, the original thinking, the solutions. What I don't want is the meanness. That's my boundary.

By meanness, can you share examples. I can tell you that nothing I've ever written here, to anyone, has been said from a mean place but we are dealing with text and not voice conversation, inflection can be lost.

I'm not sure what you mean by original thinking. Can you explain that more fully?

[Mozza]

Mozza,What I am hearing you say in between the lines is that you're cherry picking what you want to hear and discarding the rest because it stings too much. And you really don't want to dig deep. Defensive much?

Speaking of defensive...

Let me ask you a coupla questions:

-What kind of man do you want to be?
-What are your core values?
-What were some of the complaints that W voiced to you?
-Are you using GAL to just fill the void?

1. I want to be a better man than I am today, one that doesn't get himself into that situation again. Capable of showing his love easily.
2. Loyalty, honesty, hard work, family, friendship.
3. Mainly that I was too critical of her and she couldn't be herself around me.
4. Mostly, yes. That's why I'm scaling down the social aspects.

[Mozza]

By meanness, can you share examples. I can tell you that nothing I've ever written here, to anyone, has been said from a mean place but we are dealing with text and not voice conversation, inflection can be lost.

I'm not lending any intention. People can be mean without meaning to, as I've learnt through my sitch. We can just be self-absorbed, enthusiastic, overconfident, etc. and it comes out wrong. An example is this post saying I blew it and W is happy to be with OM because I'm such a loser. All this because I refute one point of analysis, as if it's impossible that I can know more about the situation.

I'm not sure what you mean by original thinking. Can you explain that more fully?

The ideas from DR are counterintuitive. Yet, they seem to be our best bet. Also, here I've had some epiphanies and changed my mind on things that were obvious to me when I arrived. I have several sources of advice, including friends, family, therapist and this board. I get the most straightforward and challenging but also efficient advice around here. I'm learning to take responsibility for what's happening to my M. I see progress and organize parts of my life according to it. I like how vets and people in sitches have different perspectives. This question about the girl in the group was actually an interesting exploration per se and I welcomed it.

[u-turn]

Sorry if I am off base here, but:

I have seen on the board recently some are asking for input and advice -(and there seems to be a lot of great insight flying around here) but when it is different than what they expect, or when they get a different perspective of their situation or self, they get offended and sometimes even refuse what is being offered to them. These opinions do seem harsh at times, but that's the reality of the situation. There is no point in sugar coating anything.

How is this helpful? I know what I think of myself. But if someone were to dig deep into me and ask me enough questions, and challenge my thoughts, maybe I'll discover something about myself that I didn't know. Possibly, if there is something that is negative, have the opportunity to correct it and possibly achieve my goals.

I think the differing opinions here are valuable and you have to weigh them all and ultimately make your own decisions.

Just an observation.

[labug]

Sometimes viewpoints that sting are our best teachers. That's why it stings, we don't want to look at it because we know it's the truth. That's been my experience.

DB is counter-intuitive and that's why people point out certain repetitive behaviors.

But this is your story, your thread. I was kicked off a thread in the past because I pointed out what I saw to a poster and he didn't like that. It was an honest statement on my part, not meant to be mean but he didn't like criticism. Those kinds of things happen around here. Not everyone learns in the same way, not everyone presents in the same way.

As the old 12-step saying goes, Take what you can use and leave the rest.

[Mozza]

Argh! I can't win... I welcome the advice, I welcome especially the challenging advice. I've said so very clearly, I've openly changed my mind even after resisting (can be seen in my threads). I wouldn't be here if I only heard what I already knew. What I don't welcome is getting mean and stubborn about it. And I agree that we all make our own decisions -- this is not a sect after all.

Is it any possible that, perhaps, sometimes, the analysis is wrong and that some people are mean? Or is it always that the LBS are in denial?

[labug]

There is no winning or losing. We can all be wrong. You get to make that determination for you.

It doesn't have to turn into an online dustup.

Thus, take what you can use and leave the rest.

[Mozza]

Sometimes viewpoints that sting are our best teachers. That's why it stings, we don't want to look at it because we know it's the truth. That's been my experience.

To clarify: in this case, what stings is not the viewpoint, it's the way it's conveyed. It doesn't sting to think that my wife my find me self-righteous when I say I didn't cheat on her. It stings when I'm told I can only resist the idea because it's true and it hurts me, and then pushing too far. Again, it doesn't even follow the DB principles.

But this is your story, your thread. I was kicked off a thread in the past because I pointed out what I saw to a poster and he didn't like that. It was an honest statement on my part, not meant to be mean but he didn't like criticism. Those kinds of things happen around here. Not everyone learns in the same way, not everyone presents in the same way.

As the old 12-step saying goes, Take what you can use and leave the rest.

I'm not kicking anyone out, especially not for giving me a challenging analysis. I wouldn't be here without it. I'm actually very happy with the attention that my sitch has gotten from vets and people in my situation. I'm immensely grateful. That's why I contribute too, to give back. I intend to come back once my situation has improved. Thanks for being here, thanks for challenging me.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

The most valuable lessons are the ones that I've felt stung the most which has forced me to dig deeper to find the source of my reaction which can be traced back to my thoughts. Then bingo! Thoughts drive one's actions/behaviors. This is why DBing is the school of hard knocks for many newbies where the vets come around and point out comments, actions, & situations to the poster in order to elicit deeper self-awareness.

If you would look around, people are by large not mean. Sometimes they use direct methods. Others lead by the Socratic method. Some use examples to draw parallels.

My approach has been a mixture of all the above. By nature, I am not mean. Not my style. The example I used above was a very direct method to get your ATTENTION to what behaviors/patterns you were exhibiting that were/are harmful and we are working with you to get you to see them clearly so they do not happen again.

As for being in denial, I would put it differently. They are just not ready to hear the truth. In time, they may or may not. It is all up to them.

Very infrequently do the vets get their analysis wrong. One may not like some of the methods the vets use, but the results speak for themselves.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

To clarify: in this case, what stings is not the viewpoint, it's the way it's conveyed. It doesn't sting to think that my wife my find me self-righteous when I say I didn't cheat on her. It stings when I'm told I can only resist the idea because it's true and it hurts me, and then pushing too far. Again, it doesn't even follow the DB principles.

The bold section is the KEY to your resistance. Why do you resist? Because it HURTS too much? Or because it is the truth and you just don't want to "admit" it thus conceding defeat. As Bug said earlier, there is no "win or lose" thing here. Sometimes we do hold the posters' feet to the fire to get them to see the underlying thought patterns and/or behaviors. At times, epiphany doesn't always come up immediately...it may sink in later.

What do you mean by this not following DB principles?

[jim0987]

ts perfectly possible the analysis is wrong. We weren't there, you were and you probably only know accurately about 30% of what happened. The rest is interpretation and perception.

I think the point that people are trying to make is that its useful to try and look at all the angles and see how exactly the same thing can be seen in different ways. Sometimes its hard to convey and/or see that.

You only have to accept what you choose to - if you don't agree that's fine as its you that has the consequences - your the one in this particular arena. We can just offer views from the sidelines.

I genuinely believe that no one is trying to be mean though.

The one thing I will just come back to though is that for me the stuff that stings is the stuff I really need to work on.

[Mozza]

OK, my last post about this. I'll just repeat what I wrote above.

- I don't mind the differing viewpoints. I welcome them.
- I come here to change my mind. I hope for a challenge. I take some, leave some.
- I draw the boundary when people are mean, intentionally or not.

What do you mean by this not following DB principles?

As I wrote yesterday:

"Research shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the most effective way to modify someone's behavior -- to get him/her to do more or less of something -- is to reinforce or positively reward that person when that individual is doing what we want him/her to do!" - Divorce Remedy, page 105 (section: Cheerleading).

Sorry, I feel I brought much negative energy onto the board with this. I'll get better. Thanks a lot jim0987, CaliGuy, labug, Wonka and u-turn for your contributions.

[gogofo]

Mozza, let me tell you my experience and you can compare and contrast where needed.

I came her taking ALL ownership in my situation. I figured my W would not hurt herself, so I was the cause. From what I have seen there are two extremes, the LBS who takes all or none of the blame. I rarely see those who fall in the middle at the beginning of the sitch. Where do you fall?

I chose to take all the blame so I could work the hurt and find my faults in myself, see who I was through my behaviors, not my thoughts.

Early I felt the sting of everything. A text message from her would send me to the moon, then no reply would crash me back to Earth. With time these highs and lows get less extreme. Time, not work, just time.

I understand how you can feel defensive about some comments. Some of the advice I got early on, and was repeated numerous times, did not make sense until months later. I regularly have epiphanies when reviewing comments or other threads.

Change is a process, not a light switch. Marathons are grueling and physically hurt. You are in a marathon, like it or not. Are you ready to train and run this race?

I believe people are stronger than they think, but you have to work through the hurt and keep going. My parents have commented that they don't know how I do it. I said if you were in my position and felt they way I do about my W and M, you would find the strength to keep going.

Focus on the goal at the end of the road, not the bumps and pot holes. They are too numerous and overwhelming, but the end of the road in out there.

GAL is for you. It is not "get her life" or "get a life that she may want". Get your life, get it now. Easy to say, not easy to do. I still am working on this and I think I will until the end of my life.

My opinion is cheer leading and soft listening are what friends are for in our situation. I came here for constructive criticism and hard truths. I do not agree that we should only be cheering for positives and not pointing out negatives. This is my learning style and I know it is not yours.

Find yours and use this board to your advantage. The vets give me advice all the time. Most I use, some I don't. They are just laying an gigantic tool chest at your feet to use as you wish. You are right we do not know you or your entire situation. I don't know if you should swing a 20 pound sledge hammer or a 16 ounce claw hammer; you decide. I know at the beginning I didn't even have the strength to pick up a hammer.

A big tip that helped me with PMA was to start a private board on my Pinterst site that was nothing more than a collection of positive quotes for myself. I also bought "You are Special" by Fred Rogers. It is full of affirming and inspiring quotes.

It takes a long time and practice to build the strength of the vets on this board. Use their strength and insight as inspiration of where you want to go and be with yourself. Be that person and see what your W thinks of it.

Finally google and read the "Law of Surrender", chew on that one for a while.

[Mozza]

Thanks Gogofo. I fall under the group that takes all the responsibility -- you'll see that as a recent evolution, perhaps 10 days ago. I went to the other extreme before that. The exercise of explaining to a friend why I still love my W despite all the flaws I had described was a good exercise to explore my responsibility. I agree that there's a middle ground, but the time has not come for that. It's a marathon: I need to repeat it to myself today.

Time and patience... When does it work? I have daily moments of shock: WAIT, THIS IS REAL?!? My W really left me? I really lost half my kids? My W is with an OM? HOW AND WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN?? TO ME?? My parents have been happily married for over 40 years. D is very rare in my family. I'm loyal and chose someone carefully for life. And then I (we?) messed up and she left me.

I now have an app that tracks my sleep cycles. It confirms what I've been saying: I wake up from a boost of adrenaline when my brain remembers my sitch. I don't wake up gradually at the end of the light sleep phase. It shows that some of this distress is beyond my control, as much as I'd like to ignore it. I'm on the phone with clients and I feel a punch in the gut. I'm not faking it, I'm not indulging in it. Yes, sometimes I'll be daydreaming about my W, my kids, my old life (saw pics of D6 birth yesterday - aouch) and know that I should try to think something else. PMA. But darn.

I mean: my W left me, she's with an OM, she talks about spending the rest of our lives apart (we're "incompatible") and I'm still hoping for reconciliation. I don't know how I do it either. Kudos to all of you in a similar situation.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

[Mozza]

For future reference, I'm posting here what sandi2 said to MCS here. It resonates a lot with me, as my W left me for a new, younger, better-looking, more attentive guy at her new job. Took her less than a month. She was ripe.

Think about it. Her and OM, no kids, no house chores, no discussion of bills or what they have to get done next or what the kids need. It is just her and him.....together. All of his attention is on her. It's not what they are doing or where they are going that really matters to her....but that she's the center of his attention and admiration. They flirt, he feeds her ego, they giggle and enjoy each other's company, he makes her feel special, and he makes her feel young and attractive. They may share what they think or feel about things, talk about beliefs, personal goals, dreams, fantasies, whatever. It makes no difference how many years she's been M or how old she may get, a woman still needs this from her man. (Who should be her H and not OM.)

To me, needing or wanting this from her H has nothing to do with self-confidence or esteem. It's just like the man needing admiration and respect from his W. We all have certain emotional needs that our spouse should meet, not some other person. It is our responsibility to learn what the other one needs. What makes them "tick". I think this may be what some call "soul mates", b/c they feel their souls connect.

For women, it's not all about the surface. It's not all about the physical stuff around us. It goes deeper. It is about each other's spirit, or the soulish part. That part that is the real inside person that makes you--"you". It is about connecting the souls. That is what so many men don't comprehend. If you feed her soul, if you make love to her soul, if you will spend time with her soul.....she should be a satisfied lady! But when that part is neglected and starved for so long, she feels like she's died on the inside. The emptiness is horrible and it leaves her in a vulnerable condition, b/c someone is going to notice her one day, or she's going to reach out to another person.

It looks a lot like what happened to my M. My W had complained to me about feeling bad and me contributing to it. She'd come to me and ask me if I loved her and I would reply something along the lines of "Of course, you know it." That's why I have lowered the outrage at her leaving me for an OM that, I know from anecdotes before she left me, is very attentive to her, asks a lot of questions, gives her gifts, invitations, and the likes. It's hard to blame her for not resisting to the promise of happiness when things were so bleak from her perspective at home.

The question is: how can I beat her new situation with the limited interactions that we have? Can I even appear as a better alternative? Is it too late?

[Mozza]

25yearsmlc offered her views on how to be effective under these circumstances, earlier in MCS' thread.

IF your 180s and changes are real, and IF you are or become a very attentive dad, it'll be hard for her not to reconsider her choice, and besides, most A's run their course in a matter of months.

The PLAN:
Be the better choice. Become a man only a fool would leave.

OK, I'm on it. I've been meaning to list more of my analysis of the M and S, moving away from day-to-day interactions. I'll list the reasons why she left me, my 180s, etc. Now, how will she see that I'm a better choice, I don't know.

And sandi2 had also said something earlier that resonates with me.

And yes, I'm sure a younger man is quite the ego shot in the arm for her. But she can only survive in that fantasy world till reality comes knocking on her door. If she and OM had the kids full time, I bet she would get a whole new insight about things with him. As it is, she's on vacation half the time, and free to be with OM whenever.

My W has the kids half time and coming back with me would take away this freedom. It's a major hurdle in my sitch. She loves her kids but always felt like they were a lot of work. When she didn't have a job, she would drop them at school and daycare and pick them only at 5 pm, never earlier for fun. Now, she tells me she puts the kids to bed up to 2 hours earlier than we did at home, saving her evenings. Kids tell me they once saw the OM arrive when they went to bed. So the non-dad OM is not even burdened by them. They create good conditions to make their R work.

Any other woman on this board would like to chime in on how their H could wow them once they've been wowed by a younger, free, better looking OM?! Especially with limited contact limited to kids issues? (Given the choice, I might have more chances to clean the Augean stables...) I'm definitely thinking of being myself. I don't want to turn into a younger person to compete on someone else's territory. I don't want to adopt a younger clothing style. I need to attract someone who likes my true self. Let's just say, I really hope it will be my W again.

[jim0987]

The short answer is that if you want someone to love your true self then you have to be your true self AND be really comfortable with who that is.

Nothing attracts like Interested and confident.

[CaliGuy]

Mozza ... ok I can maybe shed some light here.

My W left me for her OM, Physical trainer, owned his own club ... younger, fit, outgoing, great PMA all day long... all that .. she had known him form a different job about 5 years ago .. supposedly he had been after her since then and finally my actions shoved her out the door into this guys arms .... well .. in a way. It was still her choice ... but mind you I did my share to help her out the door. And like you ... even on the nights she had our S, OM was there.

YOu can do a few things here ... Set a boundary .. for the children that they are not exposed to OM (Might be hard for you to enforce, but maybe atleast voicing your opinion with her .. its not good for the kids.

To answer your question about how to show her you are the better guy .. this will take time, and its going to hurt for a bit. You have to detach, focus on you .. and in the limited time you do have with W you have to be PMA, dont push .. act as if you are moving on with your life. The A has been built on a very weak .. rebound foundation. Being a great father to your children is attractive, OM can not be their real father, thats your job. The A is new for her, she is all giddy, full of those love chemicals that rush the brain ... you have to wait this out, it has to fizzle and become less than fun. There is no time line on this ... for my W .. the A was all peachy Nov13-Feb14, then Valentines hit .. a little waivering. OM back and rocky in Mar .. back and forth it goes ... I made mistakes here and there .. .currently it appears again to be on the rocks .. but I am not leaping in .. letting the sour taste sit for a bit.

My take ... you need to be choice #1 ... not the back up if the A does not work ... this my friend is going to take time .. as you have heard many here say .. this is the gift .. the time for you to get yourself better, dig deep and find that ugly chit about yourself and fix it, for YOU ... I too woke up with horrid thoughts and images .. lost a gang of weight .. the power her A had over me was crippling. Work on dealing with that first .. then get to your own issues.

Are you going to an IC>? I recommended it

[MCS]

She loves her kids but always felt like they were a lot of work. When she didn't have a job, she would drop them at school and daycare and pick them only at 5 pm, never earlier for fun.

I feel you here...My daycare had the same complaint on her days off. I see now she was with the OM some of those days. A couple times she dropped them off at friends houses when school was closed.

Now, she tells me she puts the kids to bed up to 2 hours earlier than we did at home, saving her evenings. Kids tell me they once saw the OM arrive when they went to bed. So the non-dad OM is not even burdened by them. They create good conditions to make their R work.

Here too, she just has the kids for the weekends. When this had just started, saw a twitter post on OM's feed saying "I'm really starting to dislike weekends"....Thanks, buddy...take my wife AND complain about my kids...

[Mozza]

Thanks a lot guys for sharing your experience.

My W left me for her OM, Physical trainer, owned his own club ... younger, fit, outgoing, great PMA all day long... all that .. she had known him form a different job about 5 years ago .. supposedly he had been after her since then and finally my actions shoved her out the door into this guys arms

Somehow, it's really comforting to see that someone else is going through something very similar. Thanks for sharing. MCS is in a similar situation, where his W left off for a younger guy who turned out not to be all that available.

YOu can do a few things here ... Set a boundary .. for the children that they are not exposed to OM (Might be hard for you to enforce, but maybe atleast voicing your opinion with her .. its not good for the kids.

I'm perfectly fine with him seeing the kids. Perhaps I'm not thinking straight on this because many people here seem to think that's a boundary. I couldn't enforce it and would only look difficult. He's seen them for weeks because he helped her move to the new apartment. They like him already. He brings little gifts and plays with them. There seems to be no harm. What am I missing?

To answer your question about how to show her you are the better guy .. this will take time, and its going to hurt for a bit. You have to detach, focus on you .. and in the limited time you do have with W you have to be PMA, dont push .. act as if you are moving on with your life. The A has been built on a very weak .. rebound foundation. Being a great father to your children is attractive, OM can not be their real father, thats your job. The A is new for her, she is all giddy, full of those love chemicals that rush the brain ... you have to wait this out, it has to fizzle and become less than fun. There is no time line on this

Sigh. That's what I'm thinking too. It's hard not to know whether they have found something durable between them. It's a possibility. Maybe they are "compatible" as my W would say. My mom, this kind soul, keeps thinking that they won't last until Christmas. My chips are on March, but what do I know? It's a lot of time to fret, but little time to work on myself. I guess this tells me where I should put my energy.

Are you going to an IC>? I recommended it

Yes. Two days after the mention of S, I was in the IC office. I've been some 10 times in two months. He's focused on me, which is different from what my friends and family talk about. A great addition, though 45 minutes per week is very little.

[Mozza]

Here too, she just has the kids for the weekends. When this had just started, saw a twitter post on OM's feed saying "I'm really starting to dislike weekends"....Thanks, buddy...take my wife AND complain about my kids...

Lucky you! How long can it last if he doesn't like your kids? It will eventually get on your W's nerves.

[Mozza]

Nothing attracts like Interested and confident.

Very true. I keep thinking about it when I observe people around me. I'm surprised at how it can make average people look attractive.

[Mozza]

Oh, I don't know what to do... My W just sent me a short email.

Title "Something really important"
Content: "You think the pictures of Kim Kardashians are photoshopped??"

When I saw her name in my inbox, I said "Oh no...". When I saw the title, I had cold sweats (she announced the OM in an email titled merely "Something else"). When I read the content, I went "WTF?"

Is this a case of 80% response?

I need a strategy to deal with these little messages. She sends them several times a week. The last one was about how the Internet was down at her office (I hate her office) and she was using her Kindle. It looks like she wants to stay in touch. And I yearn to be in touch with her, to make her laugh, to be a positive presence. But am I just enabling her separation?

[Wonka]

Mozza,

Use this opportunity to re-attract your W. Why not use this opportunity to show the witty, fun, handsome Mozza? This is a light-hearted exchange which will put positive thoughts about you in her head.

Use it or lose it!

[Mozza]

Success! I replied that I'd need to look at the pictures some more to be able to tell and she replied with a big laugh. My wit (perhaps not a great example here) was a foundation of our relationship. I love to make her laugh and she loves to laugh at my jokes.

Thanks Wonka. I needed that green light. And I rushed my reply before someone else recommended that I don't answer!

[Wonka]

You could say something like:

Yeah, she's Dolly Parton updside down.

[CaliGuy]

I'm perfectly fine with him seeing the kids. Perhaps I'm not thinking straight on this because many people here seem to think that's a boundary. I couldn't enforce it and would only look difficult. He's seen them for weeks because he helped her move to the new apartment. They like him already. He brings little gifts and plays with them. There seems to be no harm. What am I missing?

That's your approach .. I do not agree but I will not tell you what you should do here .. I had issue with it because I felt it confused my S,(Protecting him was my # 1 priority with all this, plus in a way it did show her I was and always will be a good father) ... from the eyes of my 7 yr old was .. ok mommy and daddy are together .. to mommy moved away and now this new guy is here .. who is this man? She told him they were just friends but he figured it out pretty quick .. now they have serious trust issues between them that she is seriously struggling with at the moment. But that's between him and her .. I can not help her there, she created that.

[quote=Mozza]Sigh. That's what I'm thinking too. It's hard not to know whether they have found something durable between them. It's a possibility. Maybe they are "compatible" as my W would say. My mom, this kind soul, keeps thinking that they won't last until Christmas. My chips are on March, but what do I know? It's a lot of time to fret, but little time to work on myself. I guess this tells me where I should put my energy.
/quote]
Durable or not ... its in the euphoria stage, you can not compete with that at the moment. Funny you said compatible ... my W said the exact same thing, then when the newness wears out .. they will start seeing the little flaws in the other, maybe this young dude will not really want to be a father of someone elses children, maybe he tries to correct them on a behavior and momma bear strikes back .. little things add up .. let it run its course. Like I said .. I made the mistake and gave her A 6 months ... well I was close .. but its been on again and off again ... partly because I backslid at very bad times, making OM look "ok" vs making myself look like the obvious choice ... lessons you can learn through the failures of others who have been where you are.

[raliced]

Hi Mozza-

I will share my issue with OW seeing the kids (although its totally out of my control and my STBX already blew this up).

The kids have enough change in their lives without seeing a parent with a new romantic partner. They might think they are being careful in front of the kids- but I guarantee the kids will pick up on it (at least mine did).

The other is the high probability that the relationship won't work out. Again, the kids don't need grown ups appearing then disappearing out of their lives. If my STBX's current relationship doesn't work out - I'm hoping that we can have a more reasonable conversation about timelines the next time (if ever) he has a new girlfriend. I certainly wouldn't introduce my kids to a new boyfriend until at least 6 months had passed and marriage was a real possibility.

All that being said - you can state it to her, but your W is still going to do whatever the heck she feels like at this stage. The WAS already crossed a line about "what's good for the kids" when they moved out, and I think for awhile anyway, all the other lines get crossed pretty easily.

[jim0987]

The other is the high probability that the relationship won't work out. Again, the kids don't need grown ups appearing then disappearing out of their lives. If my STBX's current relationship doesn't work out - I'm hoping that we can have a more reasonable conversation about timelines the next time (if ever) he has a new girlfriend. I certainly wouldn't introduce my kids to a new boyfriend until at least 6 months had passed and marriage was a real possibility.

All that being said - you can state it to her, but your W is still going to do whatever the heck she feels like at this stage. The WAS already crossed a line about "what's good for the kids" when they moved out, and I think for awhile anyway, all the other lines get crossed pretty easily.

I have to say I agree entirely with Raliced. I'm really worried about who and how many different 'people' my W is going to bring into my kids lives. this is bad enough for them as it is without that. but equally she has already shown that this doesnt matter to her and certainly anything I say is likely to make things worse

that doesnt really offer a solution to your current predicament though its probably more a be ready for if and when it comes up in the future.

[Mozza]

Thanks all for sharing your perspective. I'm still ok with my W introducing her OM to my kids. It was done weeks ago anyway, as a friend. He helped her a lot during the move and that's when he met them. They like him.

I simply don't know if it's going to last or not. I think he's a decent, normal guy. He's kind to the kids. I'm not worried that they'll be affected if he leaves after a few months. They're clear on who are their parents. People come and go in their lives all the time (including important ones, like teachers).

If my W was to have a string of OM, then maybe I would rethink my position, but for now she's convinced she found The One as far as I know. I've no power nor desire to interfere.

Anyway, nice to have different perspectives for anyone else dealing with this issue.

[Mozza]

Lifted from the thread of jim0987.

The study said that couples in long term marriages (i.e. the ones who made it) reported their lowest level of marital satisfaction was in the first 2-3 years after the birth of their 2nd (or third, if applicable) child".

This is a concern of mine. My W left a few days before our 2nd daughter's third birthday. I try to focus on my own faults on this forum, but this element of context weighs on my mind, as an additional cause of her dissatisfaction in the M. What 25yearsmlc describe corresponds to my W to a certain extent: she stayed home for a year, looking for a new job in a new city (which she likes). Once she found it, it took her 3-4 weeks to decide she was through with me. She had not mentioned separation in 5 years before that. It seemed to me that she had a hard time getting through these difficult years of early childhood, added to her adaptation. She had developed some anxiety a couple of years before and had gotten on anti-depressants six months before the separation.

I'm not denying my responsibility in this, as I criticized her beyond what she could endure. But I do believe that her tolerance was lowered by all this pressure. When she is courted by a young, good-looking guy with the added bonus of being kids-free 50% of the time, what's not to like?

I'm wondering: what can I do with this information about the difficult years of early childhood? There's no point in telling her. Is it just good to know? Is it useless since it is not something I can control?

[MCS]

Our daughter just turned 4. Wife told me all of this stuff started last summer. As my daughter was turning 3.

I struggle with the assumption being a good dad will help bring her back. I've always been a good dad and I think that's one of the reason that she felt comfortable in the first place in leaving and being okay with 50%. she did freak out when I mentioned that I wasn't even sure with that, I don't think that was considered in her plan along with me staying in the house with them.

[Mozza]

Did you take part in the conversation about whether being a good dad would bring back our WAWs? It wasn't on my thread. I remember jim0987 was in it. Can't find it now. Anyway, people who expressed similar concerns got a 2x4 from sandi2 or 25yearsmlc, I can't recall. The point was that being a good dad can't harm, but being a bad one can be harmful. And anyway, the first reason why we should be good parents is because of our kids and ourselves. But I get your point: my W told me that she'd get the best of me in the separation since I'd remain a co-parent, at which I'm entirely satisfactory.

It's freaky Thursday: her last day with the kids before I get them tomorrow evening for a week. She tends to contact me with issues when that happens. Two weeks ago, the kids wouldn't stop asking for candies and get upset when she'd say no. That night, I picked up the kids and ran Halloween with them. How many candies did they eat in the following week? Zero. D3 asked two or three times, but always before the meal so she didn't get any. Tonight, the issue is bathroom "training" for D6. My W forces them to go to the bathroom and they seem to mount a rebellion. D6 peed her pants. My W promised her that I would "force" her to go to the bathroom. I just acknowledged the texts. I didn't offer any advice.

As I was receiving these texts, I was in a parent-teacher meeting where I was told that D6 exceeded all expectations in first grade. She's serious and mature, talks about her responsibilities with D3, writes with structure and imagination, has a good mathematical mind, etc.

[claire7]

My psychiatrist (who is a divorced mom) calls babies "marriage killers". Nice. But kinda true.

Shall we take an informal poll as to how many of us have kids under 5? My life with my D in the last year or so has been night and day different than the first 2.5-3 years. Having kids is no joke.

[Mozza]

Claire7: Good idea. I polled the signatures in the newcomer forums. I see a trend. The jump at 3 is also interesting.

AGE OF KIDS

01 xx
02 x
03 xxxxx
04 xxxx
05 xxx
06 xxxxx
07 xxxx
08 xxxxxx
09 x
10 xxx
11 xxxx
12 xx
13 xx
14 x
15 xxx
16 xxx
17
18
19 x
20
21 x
22
23 x
24
25 x


Polled: Mozza, Card29, Ss06, HPoirot, Maybell, rppfl, blindsid, Ahoy, Jefe, jim0987, Nitty, raliced, PatientMan, Bravo61, BigMac, whytry, Zues126, 1foot2, bunches, rzrback, CaliGuy
No kids: devotee, ganb8te, Little

[MCS]

Adding me on here. got a 4 and 5 year old. Its interesting because we all tend to say our spouses are WAS according to MWD, but you would think that there would be a jump at 18ish if that were the case.

Also, I see a statistically high percentage (probably >75%) of folks here that are men and also in the 30-40 age group. I use to joke in my 20's that I was scared for my mid-30's, because it seems everyone gets separated/divorced around that time. Little did I know it was some foreshadowing


AGE OF KIDS

01 xx
02 x
03 xxxxx
04 xxxxx
05 xxxx
06 xxxxx
07 xxxx
08 xxxxxx
09 x
10 xxx
11 xxxx
12 xx
13 xx
14 x
15 xxx
16 xxx
17
18
19 x
20
21 x
22
23 x
24
25 x


Polled: Mozza, Card29, Ss06, HPoirot, Maybell, rppfl, blindsid, Ahoy, Jefe, jim0987, Nitty, raliced, PatientMan, Bravo61, BigMac, whytry, Zues126, 1foot2, bunches, rzrback, CaliGuy, MCS
No kids: devotee, ganb8te, Little

[MCS]

But I get your point: my W told me that she'd get the best of me in the separation since I'd remain a co-parent, at which I'm entirely satisfactory.

I swear, our wives are the exact same person.

Mine told the counsellor that she had no problem leaving me with the kids and disappearing for a week because she knew I would look out for them just fine.

[Mozza]

Sorry MCS, you were already there but I forgot to include your handle in the lest. And I agree that there seems to be an awful lot of men in their 30s here! Gives credence to my mom's theory that women have their MLC in their mid-30s. Like you, I never thought it would happen to me.

[jim0987]

That parenting conversation was here if you're interested but you already covered the gist.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2498873&page=4

[Mozza]

Thanks for the link jim0987. Here's exactly where the conversation gets started. http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2498873&page=7

I went back into old email conversations again, this time to explore our sexual history. We've had ups and downs. Of course, it started fiery. Then I was the one who lost desire first. This surprised me. In fact, I see no email where I complain that I want more sex, but several from her, over the years. This is a surprise because that's not what I recall. I suspect my collection method (email) is biased because she'd write and I'd speak about it. We've had the two kids, so that suspended sex for a while after birth. In the last six to twelve months, we seemed to have found a good balance. We had no arguments about it and quite a bit of chemistry. Did she have some secret frustration? I suspect not really: her pain was in her heart.

But the most telling thing I saw in these emails was the way I would reply to her concerns. She'd open up and I would close up and blame her. It's not that clear cut, but reading between the lines, you can see that. In a way, the topic (sex) doesn't matter as much as the way we talked. Towards the end, she was very difficult, but today it seems like she tried for a long time to engage me properly.

Another thing I saw is how passionate we could be in the beginning. How she responds when I open up, when I query. She loves a good personal conversation, talking about feelings and all sort of intimate things. She went elsewhere to find it.

This is not good. My PMA is down again. I once again see the extent of the problems my W had in the M. I'm pessimistic as to our chances to reconcile, after seeing this. I feel hopeless. Did anyone ever come back from so far behind?

[MCS]

Did anyone ever come back from so far behind?

I sometimes feel the same way. However, I usually pull myself back up to some hope by telling myself that its not that we need to fix the marriage that we had, but to create a new one based on what we now know. If it was the former, we could simply tell/show our W that we know what happened, they would move back in and everything would be okay. But no matter what the issue was, they right now 'feel' the marriage is over, so it doesn't matter if it took a day or a year. Our goal here is to learn from our mistakes and also understand that we can't re-write history. Hopefully, our spouses 'see' our changes and give us the opportunity to start over again.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

Your stinkin' thinkin' isn't helping at all!!!

This is not good. My PMA is down again. I once again see the extent of the problems my W had in the M. I'm pessimistic as to our chances to reconcile, after seeing this. I feel hopeless. Did anyone ever come back from so far behind?

Oh yea!!! One needs to look at Bond, Starsky, Jack-Three-Beans, Bug (labug), 25, Sandi, Train....need I say more??

This is not for sissies. C'mon, Mozza....get your swagger back and shine through.

[Mozza]

Oh yea!!! One needs to look at Bond, Starsky, Jack-Three-Beans, Bug (labug), 25, Sandi, Train....need I say more??

This is not for sissies. C'mon, Mozza....get your swagger back and shine through.

Thank you Wonka. I guess I was begging for some encouragement. I have ups and downs. I can't believe how down I still get two months after the separation. Last evening, I also had a moment of "Do I really want HER back?" thinking of issues I also had in the marriage. This was a rare moment for me and I felt that it came with a certain inner peace. It was perhaps a glimpse at detachment.

Mozza, Your stinkin' thinkin' isn't helping at all!!!

You're right. Want to know the latest? W's boss is leaving today and they didn't get along. Boss saw the whole thing happening at work, with OM. Hey, I could reach out to her for a quick lunch, gather intelligence, see if it's serious, what kind of guy is OM... STOP! This is destructive, I know it and I've to kill the temptation. My brain is cruel. Also, see what I discovered on the OM's social media last night. Why am I even looking?

The biggest step that I need to take, and I can't seem to do it, is to detach and focus on myself. I'm honest when I say that much of what I do (apart from my GAL perhaps) is for her. I'm aware that this is what's holding me back, but I'm emotionally anchored there. I have to take a step forward in the DB process. I saw some people achieve it when their W did something wrong (BigMac when his W threatened to take away the kids come to mind) but so far, I've accepted every lie, every hurt that she caused me.

This is not for sissies.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

I'm smiling at this:

You're right. Want to know the latest? W's boss is leaving today and they didn't get along. Boss saw the whole thing happening at work, with OM. Hey, I could reach out to her for a quick lunch, gather intelligence, see if it's serious, what kind of guy is OM... STOP! This is destructive, I know it and I've to kill the temptation. My brain is cruel. Also, see what I discovered on the OM's social media last night. Why am I even looking?

Step away....BACK OFF...and allow the OM to shoot his foot (or his head for that matter). It'll all come down spectacularly. Don't lift a dang finger here. It's your W's problem and the OM's. Not your sandbox.

[BigMac]

It's hard. But if you want to do it, you can can do it.

[Vapo]

Mozz, it's her monkey, and it's her circus. This is one show you would not want tickets for...

[jim0987]

Its definitely hard but you know what your doing. Your catching yourself which is good, you just need to get that self intervention to trigger a bit sooner.

[Mozza]

Thanks for your words of encouragement. I know detachment is there, just a bit outside of my reach, so I need to make an extra effort.

My W emailed me about work again... It's good news this time, although since it's more work and she's overwhelmed, I'm not sure (I asked and she's ambivalent too). She seems to be seeking some connection or reassurance. I don't know. No mind reading, I just engage nicely, as advised on these boards. I realize that I'm very bad at validating. Not providing advice and solutions is like asking a frog not to jump.

I confess that I sometimes insert some subliminal message in my contacts with her, like this cheeky one. This time, I went her way and I told her that, even though she had put even more on her shoulder, she should trust that it would all be good in the end, to just keep swimming. This felt counterproductive to me (don't give up on the S even if it's hard!) but at the same time, I want to tell her that I set her free. I hope I'm not going to far in supporting the S. It's possible she won't even notice.

Question: I just got my evaluation for a training I delivered last week. It is stellar, my best ever (can't believe it, I was so nervous because of my sitch!). Should I share it with my W in the exchange about her work? It sounds like a good way to show her I'm successful (not that she doubts it), the comments are full of compliments about my sense of humor, relevance, etc. I've shared that with her in the past. But something tells me it might be pursuing or just plain too much.

Thoughts?

[MCS]

Thoughts?

From a fellow novice....NO! Don't share.

This is for you. YOU are the one doing a fantastic job in the face of chaos. Like you said, she knows you're successful. If anything, allow it to change your attitude back to PMA and see that we can all get through this and you will be okay, whether you get back together or not.

[jim0987]

Congratulations! You must have been hoping for it for a little while, so the satisfaction must be even greater. It's fun to see that we have people from all walks of life coming her to share their emotional pain. We're all the same. And you're right: you should have let your W discover it later. It would have been a great surprise, a way to show her that you have your own mysteries now, that you don't share important stuff with her. She's out of the loop. Lesson learned?

From my thread 2 days ago about my success at work.

I could offer my view but I think you summed it up quite nicely

[25yearsmlc]

Yes, you shouldn't be intentionally trying to make her jealous because that's a negative feeling and you want her feelings towards you to become more positive.

Also, which rule says "be mysterious" ? She doesn't need context if the context is going to be like you sounding smug.

If you are actually committed to the marriage, then you don't even NOTICE opportunities to cheat. Because you are committed and making a point of saying you passed on one makes it seem like you were tempted to, not because your W is important to you, but because you chose not to for some nebulous other reason.

***To me it's akin to saying "I was so mad at you the other day, THAT I could have hit you...but I didn't."

It's bragging about something that normal decent guys assume about themselves. ***

Also, for a woman to hop into bed with a guy there has to be some emotional connection. Even if it's sort of weak. So your telling your W that you passed on an opportunity to cheat tells her as a woman that you MADE an emotional connection (ie emotionally cheated) with another woman - but decided to pass on the sex part.
At the same time, you are insisting that she sever HER emotional connection with OM.

AND that you feel entitled to mention it as if it was an "Achievement" or something for which she ought to be grateful. See, you being invited by a woman to something is enough. All you had to do IF ASKED, was to say "X-female told me about the group/meeting" and drop it.

You need not have ever told her before hand, who you "COULD" have committed adultery with. Yes, yes I know you are saying that's to show her you are meeting OWs ----but that's pretty much the same thing we are telling you!

It's still about you and OWs and what you would have enjoyed but somehow restrained yourself from...Hey, It's just NOT making you look good IF you want to reestablish trust in the m. DO YOU want to do that?

OR do you see her feeling insecure around you as something that will put her in her place, and or hook her?

I submit that No one likes a chronic stomach ache about things like this, least of all a possible WAW.

I thought you were a man trying to be a more loving & faithful partner, which you have NOT been. Your persistent focus on HER OM and on HER sins of infidelity, seems like a form of hypocritical sabotage to me.


What do you want?

If I were you, I would want my spouse to see me as a great, reliable, attractive partner in whom it is safe to place my trust. That, and only that, is a good reason to return to a marriage.

What of telling her about the girl you didn't cheat with moves you closer to that goal?

Or do you have some other goal in mind?

[/b]


THIS^^^!

Act in accordance with your GOALS, Not in how you FEEL at the moment.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for your words of encouragement. I know detachment is there, just a bit outside of my reach, so I need to make an extra effort.

My W emailed me about work again... It's good news this time, although since it's more work and she's overwhelmed, I'm not sure (I asked and she's ambivalent too). She seems to be seeking some connection or reassurance. I don't know. No mind reading, I just engage nicely, as advised on these boards. I realize that I'm very bad at validating. Not providing advice and solutions is like asking a frog not to jump.

Then try seeing it another way. If I have a stressful day at work, I already know I do not want to quit my job, or I would have by now. I simply want or need to vent.

But if my h suggests "So quit the job", here is what I HEAR HIM "REALLY" saying:

"W, since I already suggested the obvious solution--quitting, You CAN SHUT UP about your solvable problem now, I showed you THE answer. No need to keep whining now..."

Not that he meant that, but it's often what we hear. The "answer" has been given so what's to discuss NOW??

See how it can sound to others?


I confess that I sometimes insert some subliminal message in my contacts with her, like this cheeky one. This time, I went her way and I told her that, even though she had put even more on her shoulder, she should trust that it would all be good in the end, to just keep swimming. This felt counterproductive to me (don't give up on the S even if it's hard!) but at the same time, I want to tell her that I set her free. I hope I'm not going to far in supporting the S. It's possible she won't even notice.


That is likely since I could barely follow the connection between her work and the marriage....but I GUESS it's in there...

Question: I just got my evaluation for a training I delivered last week. It is stellar, my best ever (can't believe it, I was so nervous because of my sitch!). Should I share it with my W in the exchange about her work? It sounds like a good way to show her I'm successful (not that she doubts it), the comments are full of compliments about my sense of humor, relevance, etc. I've shared that with her in the past. But something tells me it might be pursuing or just plain too much.

Thoughts?

Not exactly pursuit, per se, but 2 other thoughts came to me.

1) coming off of HER work experience right now it comes off as superior and competitive, so your timing is awful, or at least not great,

and 2) it could come off as you bragging, which can sound competitive and is especially so, if you get too specific and detailed.

You can say a more general comment like that you got a "really nice evaluation" at work and say "so that felt good" or something like that.

(And Just b/c you have shown her all those in the past, does not mean she appreciated it).

Yes, I think it's nice to share good moments, but timing matters. And you can say it in way that shows gratitude like you enjoy your job partly b/c they're nice and supportive to you.

Make sense?

[Mozza]

OK, you pulled me off a cliff again. I did not send it, even though the email was drafted. Thanks! I try to learn from each of these situations. I agreed with MCS that it should feed my PMA and I'm afraid her reaction will bring me down ("Oh, good!"). I agree with 25yearsmlc that it be be misconstrued as a come back.

From my thread 2 days ago about my success at work. I could offer my view but I think you summed it up quite nicely

jim0987, you win this round. Other people's sitches are as clear to me as mine is opaque.

----------------
Got the kids back for the week tonight. D6 always arrives with spontaneous stories from her week with W and, I shamefully admit, I do ask some questions. I learnt that OM slept at my W's apartment every night because D6 begged him too (she told me giddily), that he recently moved into a new apartment (he broke up with his gf to be with my W), that he met with my W's friends ("let me introduce you to my new guy!"), that they say 'I love you" to each other and that his nickname for her is "my queen". Sigh, I must be that ex from hell when she talks about me. Also, they really do love each other. Then again, my "plan" is that she will be disappointed in love, realizing that it becomes normal after a while. So I guess I should be pleased that they're in love. It happens in many reconciliation stories involving an OM, right? Right?

A good friend told me that my W would have broken up with him long ago because he couldn't have kept up with her demands for romantic love and intensity. He thinks I've done better than the average man. But she's not the average girl. I don't know if it's any comfort. Perhaps some reason not to beat myself up too much?

[Maybell]

Was he married to her to know? Or just basing his opinion on your report?

Not trying to kick you when you're down... But what good does it do for you to let your friends distract you with criticism of her? How does that serve a possible reconciliation? Eye on the prize, man.

I get that you're hurting a lot. I'm very sorry your Ds are seeing their mom sleeping with another man. I know that's awful. You have my absolute sympathy on that. Just keep your eye on the prize.

[gogofo]

my "plan" is that she will be disappointed in love, realizing that it becomes normal after a while. So I guess I should be pleased that they're in love. It happens in many reconciliation stories involving an OM, right? Right?

Your plan should be to GAL and become someone only a fool would leave. You cannot plan what other people feel or do. Expectations are dangerous and rarely do they ever end in anything but disappointment.

You should be pleased you are alive, have great kids, etc. Stay out of her sandbox. Work on you. No wonder you have trouble with a PMA, you are putting expectations on you and your situation and all of those involved.

How about you focus on feeling positive and serious GAL activities. I know it is hard but it is the only thing that can save you. Take care of Mozza. Be the best Mozza you can be and then if she changes her mind you can choose IF you want her back.

Search for Shawn Achor and his TED talk, it should give you an idea what it takes to get a PMA, and what that PMA can do for you.

[Mozza]

Was he married to her to know? Or just basing his opinion on your report? Not trying to kick you when you're down... But what good does it do for you to let your friends distract you with criticism of her? How does that serve a possible reconciliation? Eye on the prize, man.

He's known her for 9.5 years and he was her favorite among my friends. He's a good listener and she talked about her issues with him. He likes her too. He just finds her very demanding in love and I can't disagree -- after all, this is the girl who holds me to the standards of Sex and the City, 5 years and 1 newborn later. But I digress and I get your point: what does it bring to think about her flaws? I have more than my share in this fiasco and I need to work on it. Eyes on the prize. Thanks for the reminder and focus.

I get that you're hurting a lot. I'm very sorry your Ds are seeing their mom sleeping with another man. I know that's awful. You have my absolute sympathy on that. Just keep your eye on the prize.

Thank you... The kids kept on talking about him all evening: will I give them chocolate like he does? do I have the same funny video he does? Oh he does the same exercise. I see how much my W has recreated a family life with a new man, 10 years younger, better looking and without any baggage and full of fresh love. To think that I was there through thick and thin, the difficult moments, the birth of our daughters, her accident, her jobseeking, my own issues, difficulties with her family, our two international moves... And now he sweeps in and 3-4 weeks later, my W is in love with him and he took my place (I know in my kids heart, I still have my place, but you see what I mean). FML...

[Maybell]

I keep forgetting how recently you got here. You've had a LOT pile up in a short amount of time. So your task is to triage. 1st: back away and detach. Stop asking about what happens at her house. Don't pick the scab.

I seriously doubt your friend really knows what it was like to be married to her. If he thinks she was looking for "too much" romance, he *could* be right... Or it could be that she was expressing a sense of lack in her life and he was making assumptions about what you're like in private based on what he'd be like in private and concluded that she was asking for too much. Does he understand her love language? Does he offer love in the same way she accepts it? My experience with my H is that he resented me for wanting what I wanted, rather than wanting what he was willing to offer. Could that be your friend's perspective?

I pose these questions to remind you at you have a lot of work to do on yourself and that her sandbox is hers. She gets to build her castle any way she wants, regardless of whether or not you think it's structurally sound.

First things first: work on the detaching. Build some fantastic memories with your girls. GAL and cultivate PMA. This is a very tough situation, bring grace to it as best you can.

[MCS]

Mozza,

If autocorrect stopped correcting your name to mozzarella, it may be easier to post
Anyway, this news stinks...it really does. I'm sure it's eating you up. Just remember the whole reason that this place is our sanctuary is that we can look through here and realize that we are not alone in our situations, but also we all have similar goals.

We knew we were going to have ups and downs through this, just remember in life, it's so often we only see the next step and not the destination in the distance. Each choice that we make in the next step helps us get to that destination, some of those steps are pretty scary when we look at them, but we need to keep moving anyway. Keep your eyes on the goal even when it seems to be easier just standing still. To blindly paraphrase a great quote incorrectly, we aren't doing this because it's easy.....we are doing this because it is hard (and because it's what we know is the right thing to do.)

Hang in there, bud.

[Mozza]

Thanks a lot everybody for your moral support. It's what I needed tonight. Fridays are hard because of some exhausting activities with the kids (especially alone) and the stories that they bring back.

Maybell. I must look like an old-timer because I'm very active on these boards, probably too active for someone with so little experience (11 posts per day on average!). But I try to learn from providing advice to others (it worked today when jim0987 reflected my own advice to me!), I appreciate the feedback I receive, and I like giving back. To me, the idea that my W has unrealistic expectations of love is compatible with all the work I have to do on myself to become a good man, a good husband. I'll work on my share and we'll see if she does hers. I've told her since she left that we both had to go through this and see if we meet on the other end.

gogofo. Thanks for the reference. I've watched the TED talk. I'll start the 3 grateful things exercise today.

MCS. Thanks a lot for your comforting words. Yes, we do it because it's hard and worth it. Because we're worth it. What's the alternative anyway? Eyes on the prize.

I thought you were a man trying to be a more loving & faithful partner, which you have NOT been. Your persistent focus on HER OM and on HER sins of infidelity, seems like a form of hypocritical sabotage to me.

To clarify: I've always been faithful. Hope I wasn't unclear about that or perhaps you have me confused with someone else. She's been unfaithful in 2009 and now she's with a different OM.

But anyway, I get the point: no mention of that group again to my W.

Thanks all! My life would be very different today if I had not found you.

[25yearsmlc]

Was he married to her to know? Or just basing his opinion on your report?

Not trying to kick you when you're down... But what good does it do for you to let your friends distract you with criticism of her? How does that serve a possible reconciliation? Eye on the prize, man.

I get that you're hurting a lot. I'm very sorry your Ds are seeing their mom sleeping with another man. I know that's awful. You have my absolute sympathy on that. Just keep your eye on the prize.

Good things to remember^^^, and btw I could not grasp your friend's point. Was it to make you hate her - and would that ease any pain in you, or what?

Your "Friend" is misguided. Seriously. Even if he knows some big secret the rest of us do not know, nothing he says is helpful OR constructive OR comforting.

Don't go to poisoned wells for a drink of water...

[jim0987]

Don't go to poisoned wells for a drink of water...

This is a metaphor too many people forget (my W included)

[Vanilla]

Mozza

My W developed anxiety in the last couple of years and started taking anti-depressants. In the context of the present "operation", I've decided to take responsibility for it. I was making her miserable by ignoring her or criticizing her. She was trapped, starved in our marriage. That's why she became anxious and depressive. I'm not sure it's 100% of the explanation, but it's the one that helps me most to improve and to get a shot at reconciliation.

You posted this on Jim's thread (and I apologise but I struggle with the quote thing so the formats not right)

Consider this: your W is a separate person from you.
You can not make another person feel anything and you are not responsible for her feelings. You are responsible for you and W is responsible for W. Basic DB, so you can let yourself 'off the hook' and only accept responsibility for you in you M.

Could a vet please help

Regards
Vanilla

[Mozza]

Thanks for chipping in, Vanilla. I'm not sure I agree with this:

You can not make another person feel anything and you are not responsible for her feelings.

Through self-control, I can refuse to feel stuff that others mean to make me feel. But in a couple (and many relationships, like friendship), it's the opposite: I offer my feelings to my partner. I open myself to feeling good when hearing "I love you" or a compliment (the same would leave me cold, from a cashier). Of course, I can make my W feel bad by ignoring her, by criticizing her. She puts her trust in me that I will care for her. She's hurt when I don't. It's also basic DB to look for my flaws.

Now that we're separated, it's a different ball game. I'm not responsible for what she feels and I take responsibility for my feeling. The contract, the bond between us has been broken. It's bizarro world.

As for the quotes, you need to put them before and after the segment you quote.

Before: [quote=mozza] Original text to quote.
After: [/quote ] (remove the space after "quote" in the brackets)

Helpful?

[Vanilla]

Mozza

Together, in an M, separate, friendly or any other way.

Each person is an individual, they feel their own feelings. One person can not 'make' another feel anything. As humans, we have our own will and choose our feelings. It is our right to do so. No one of us has the omnipotent power over another in this sphere. Marriage makes no difference to this basic.

I am not sure I am experienced enough to explain this fully to you. Victor Frankl is his book Mans Search for Meaning is the most persuasive exponent of this knowledge. There will be others here who can voice better than I.

Regards
Vanilla

[Mozza]

My W just wrote me again about work. Her boss left on Friday as she's taken over the responsibilities. I asked her how she felt about it, maide a few jokes, etc. he replied in kind.

I just don't know what to make of these messages. I await them like they're a lifeline. I'm at a big GAL event, moderating sessions with local bigwigs and yet, every time I don't speak, I think about her and feel close to tears. Wearing a suit. In public. Jeez. "Detach" is easier to say than do.

[jim0987]

Its hard work detaching. I spent the day running a training course and any minute I wasn't speaking, bang, right back thinking about my W.

[25yearsmlc]

Mozza

Together, in an M, separate, friendly or any other way.

Each person is an individual, they feel their own feelings. One person can not 'make' another feel anything. As humans, we have our own will and choose our feelings. It is our right to do so. No one of us has the omnipotent power over another in this sphere. Marriage makes no difference to this basic.


This^^ is an absolute Truth. Marriage does NOT change it. Of course if you mistreat your partner, chances are good that at some point their feelings for you will change. Are "they" responsible? YES. So what? That's not to say it's their "fault" they no longer enjoy your company b/c you mistreat them; it's their normal reaction.

Of course, if you did not know you were mistreating them (or not speaking in their love language) and they made No effort to help you understand this, then they share in responsibility for how the interactions went.

But make no mistake, you are NOT responsible for her choices and she is not responsible for yours.

If you lose your temper you can try to blame her (as most wife beaters do) for "making" you mad, but it's YOUR temper YOU lost.

Consider each person to be a '"State", like Iowa and South Carolina. Iowa does not tell South Carolina what laws to pass in their state; IOWA handles its' own laws and enforcement. Each state/person only has "jurisdiction" over themselves...

Does that help?

I am not sure I am experienced enough to explain this fully to you. Victor Frankl is his book Mans Search for Meaning is the most persuasive exponent of this knowledge. There will be others here who can voice better than I.

Regards
Vanilla

[Mozza]

25yearsmlc - I agree that we have responsibility for our feelings. I'm just saying, we often influence one another's feelings through our actions. I take your point that she is responsible for leaving though. Thanks for the input.

By the way, I still hope to hear your take on the differences between my WAW and that of MCS. You made me very curious about what you see.

11 pages? Ok, time for a new thread.

Mozza (5)

[25yearsmlc]

25yearsmlc - I agree that we have responsibility for our feelings. I'm just saying, we often influence one another's feelings through our actions. I take your point that she is responsible for leaving though. Thanks for the input.

By the way, I still hope to hear your take on the differences between my WAW and that of MCS. You made me very curious about what you see.

11 pages? Ok, time for a new thread.

Mozza (5)

I was going to suggest you start a new thread but AHA! You have. I will follow there, but will say a small comment about "making" someone else feel a certain way.

If we bully someone (or they, us) it's a cop out to say "Hey I am not 'responsible' for your hurt feelings, YOU are" and then pretending that all is well.

I get that. My point is more geared towards those who say "If I say/do 'X', THEY MIGHT feel bad".....(= they will guilt us or make us look bad or 'be so hurt' BY US, etc etc)

as if their potential feelings are OUR responsibility AND as if they have NO control over how they react. Maybe a better term would be "react" instead of "feel", b/c While we are ALL indisputably responsible for how we ACT/REACT,

arguments can be made ( & distract) that "feelings" are beyond our control OR influenced by others. Suffice to say, WE are solely responsible for Our choices and how WE act and react and what we say, etc.

Obviously there are FACTORS to consider.

Do I believe your wife strayed from the marriage without any "influence" by you?

No. So your task is 2 fold (I'm oversimplifying for purposes of clarity for the board, but you know the 'gray' factors involved, I think)


1) What was Your role in the marriage's problems (Not saying to blame you, but asking exactly what I just said, "the marriage's problems"

and

2) What do You WANT to do to reconcile, and or, what would You need from your w, in the event you two tried to reconcile?

I do Not suggest you come up with a LONG list of your needs, but rather, a list that is achievable AND which will allow you to move forward from this ordeal, without nagging stomach aches about where she is, every time she's late from somewhere.

What would it take for you to get past this?

FYI these questions are for you here, to ponder and answer...NOT for you to tell your w anytime soon...
'
More later...

[Vanilla]

It is hard work Mozza but the more you practice the easier it will get. It will calm and ease your mind! Makes better choices easier and I have found this.

Kinder more gentle interactions with W, yourself and the world. Better DBing, more reflection.

Warmth

Vanilla