I thought everything was okay...

[MCS]

Toots,

That was a bad choice of words there for me. I was trying to put something in that didn't need a lot of explanation. What I meant by direct communication is that I don't hold much in. A bad cliche is that "I call a spade, a spade" I try not to do this to others, but this is how I think about myself. I'm sure with being too comfortable with my interaction with my wife I did it.

For example, we could never figure out the time that she spent outside of the home, especially once we had kids. Friends, Volunteering, Vacations, etc. When she would volunteer, she would get overly stressed and it would adversely affect her mood at home. Instead of validating her stress, I see that I would ask her why she felt she needed to do all of the extra stuff when it just got her more stressed out.

Even the few times that she said that nothing in her life was easy, I started to try and give her examples of folks that we know that are going through much worse struggles. We were healthy, no money problems, our jobs were secure, etc. Again, not validating her which I think may have been received as I didn't care. Of course I did care, I didn't identify she just needed me to listen and not try to solve/ convince her otherwise.

[MCS]

Are you saying you think this is what happened that caused her to become a WAW?

Yes, I think that was a big part of it. During our M, she would ask me thinks to change and I did. I.E. coming home from work earlier, helping her get the kids ready in the morning, etc. However after she left, she told me she was still overwhelmed with her life even though I changed the things she asked. I think leaving gave her the rest that she was trying to find at home. After she left, she told me she hasn't went out and got involved in anything; she's been sitting at home and reading and relaxing when the kids are at my house.

I'm fully committed to try and fix that, if given the chance.

Do you believe the OM has fixed any of "that"?

Partially, I think that he fixed the self-esteem issue because he validated how she felt. He was a listening ear when she didn't turn to me because I tried to be defensive/explain to her why she shouldn't feel that way.

I think her being on her own is helping her with feeling overwhelmed with the kids. A friend told me that a while ago, my W said something to the effect of how her BF was a lot less stressed after the D, because she could spend a week with the kid and a week by herself and would get most of her housework/personal stuff the week she was alone.

[MCS]

Just got back from counseling which is set up because its really our only forum to communicate. It went okay, I guess. It was cordial, but it's tough to see how much different of a person she is right now. Its also tough seeing how much both of us are struggling to communicate with each other.

I did a lot of validation, even though she was accusing me of things that are just not true w/ the kids. I'm not sure if I'm on the right track, because I still see I'm defending myself. For example discussing our lack of communication with the kids:

W: It feels like you withhold stuff about the kids so you can make me look like a bad parent.

M: Since we haven't talked about it, I can understand why you may feel that way, but that was never my intention. I just don't know how much to share with you since you left. I didn't want to send you stuff if you were uncomfortable with it. You didn't ask about anything with them over the last couple months. I sent you some pictures of his school projects and also texted you asking a question about the kids and you did not reply back. I thought at that point that you didn't want that level of sharing. I can start sending you stuff if you'd like.

W: Well, when I didn't reply back, it was a month ago.

M: I can increase what I send, anything out of the ordinary like projects or issues, I'll let you know. If you are looking for more or less communication about them, just let me know.

What do you think?

[sandi2]

A friend told me that a while ago, my W said something to the effect of how her BF was a lot less stressed after the D, because she could spend a week with the kid and a week by herself and would get most of her housework/personal stuff the week she was alone.

I think you are buying in to the wrong reasons she left. Even with low self-esteem, these other reasons you listed just do not make sense. Not when you consider the true the soul of a woman in love. When a woman feels in love with a man, she may be the one to put him on a pedestal. She may lean on him for support, but still feel his equal. She will tolerate those other things you named simply b/c she wants him. Love covers a multitude of mistakes and bad behavior.

If you were not abusive to her, I have doubts you caused her low self-esteem by being a self-confident man. After all, we women like men who are confident. Not a smart-a$$, or some hotshot showoff, but a man who is truly confident.

I am not saying she doesn't have low self-esteem, just that you didn't cause it the way you described. Even speaking direct shouldn't cause it, if you didn't do it in a demeaning way.

And yes, I'm sure a younger man is quite the ego shot in the arm for her. But she can only survive in that fantasy world till reality comes knocking on her door. If she and OM had the kids full time, I bet she would get a whole new insight about things with him. As it is, she's on vacation half the time, and free to be with OM whenever. Btw, is she able to do this with your financial help?

Maybe you need to re-evaluate the marital history again. It wasn't these things you listed that caused her unhappiness. That wasn't the cause for her to stop feeling in love with her H.

[sandi2]

Just to add, b/c I think our posts crossed, she will blame you for all the problems of the world....as long as you act guilty. She has the kids the same amount of time as you do, right? Yet she tried to paint you out to be the bad guy toward her.

Cooperate with her (especially in co-parenting). Own your mistakes, but don't take blame for her neglect or downfall. Not to be mean, but for her own good and to help her deal with truth.

It is too easy for the WAW to just blame everything that's wrong on her LBH.

[MCS]

It wasn't these things you listed that caused her unhappiness. That wasn't the cause for her to stop feeling in love with her H.

Sandi2,

First, no abuse in our marriage. I hardly ever yelled or lost my composure. It was apparent to her when I wasn't pleased, but no anger related issues. I was grumpier more than I should have been, but nothing over the top. Second, we both make about the same amount of money and make enough that we can be financially stable without each other.

My heart just sank when I read your post, because I think you're right and that's what I've been struggling with. I really, really don't know why she was unhappy and its horrible that a) I didn't know that she was unhappy when we were together and b) I don't even know how I can help her be happy again....or if I can. I've done a ton of self-reflection before I even knew about OM and I still couldn't figure out what I did to make her unhappy. I know that I did not hold up my end of our marriage to make sure she continually knew how much I loved her and how important she was in my life and I wonder if that is truly what the issue is.

I wonder if she felt that I loved our kids more than her, I'm not sure. Most of my focus since we had them was on the family and not the marriage. I often used the family as reasons that we didn't do things in our marriage (vacations, date nights, etc.) when she wanted to. My parents were that way. Her parents were much more focused on themselves first and family second (my opinion.) She told me at some point during the BD that she felt she lost her identity as an individual (because of me) but time-wise it was since the kids were born.

I don't want to keep projecting our marital issues back on her, but I really don't know what went wrong. I've talked with her Sister, her Mom, her friends, my IC, the MC, to try and get some insight on why she's unhappy and no one can figure it out. Mostly everyone has said that it seemed as if our M was fine and they didn't think that was the main reason. The only insight on the reasons within our M, is what I said above.

I hope everyone doesn't think I'm trying to cover my own issues up in the marriage, but I really don't see what went wrong.

[MCS]

Cooperate with her (especially in co-parenting). Own your mistakes, but don't take blame for her neglect or downfall. Not to be mean, but for her own good and to help her deal with truth.

Thanks, I can say that over the last couple weeks, this is one thing that I did change and it does seem to make it easier on me emotionally. I'm no longer scared to tell her how I feel about what's best for the kids.

She asked me today why it feels like I don't think she's being a good parent right now. After a long pause as I was trying to collect myself, debating if I should say anything, the MC told me to tell her what I was thinking. I said to her "You left the kids and walked out on them. They are still confused and hurting because of that and its going to take me a while to get over that happening to them." She didn't say anything in response.

[25yearsmlc]

It wasn't these things you listed that caused her unhappiness. That wasn't the cause for her to stop feeling in love with her H.

Complete agreement with this^^^...You need to dig deeper but NOT ask others to help or advise. You said you read the DB books and they advise, as do we, against trying to get allies in your cause. And saying "i just want to understand her so I speak to HER family about HER..." is not cutting it.

It's absolutely you trying manipulate the outcome here, and that is one of the definitions of controlling behavior.

I know you don't see it that way, but maybe you could learn to.


Sandi2,

First, no abuse in our marriage. I hardly ever yelled or lost my composure.

"No beating and no cheating" is not exactly a ringing endorsement of WHY she "should" be happier, which is what you were essentially telling her when she'd go to you for support or some free time.

Though you both work full time, it is clear that she feels she bears the brunt of more home or family or nurturing responsibilities, AND OR that you are critical of how she does those things.


It was apparent to her when I wasn't pleased, but no anger related issues.


This^^ makes no sense to me. To ME, Your "disappointment" in her, which is= "not pleased" is the same as berating her or judging her or being angry.

Besides why were you so often "not pleased" ( I mean, if the marriage was so great?)


I was grumpier more than I should have been, but nothing over the top.


What would SHE SAY if she were here? Think hard.You do Not have to agree with her but you DO need to understand her better.

Second, we both make about the same amount of money and make enough that we can be financially stable without each other.

My heart just sank when I read your post, because I think you're right and that's what I've been struggling with. I really, really don't know why she was unhappy and its horrible that a) I didn't know that she was unhappy when we were together and b) I don't even know how I can help her be happy again....or if I can

. I've done a ton of self-reflection before I even knew about OM and I still couldn't figure out what I did to make her unhappy. I know that I did not hold up my end of our marriage to make sure she continually knew how much I loved her and how important she was in my life and I wonder if that is truly what the issue is.

I wonder if she felt that I loved our kids more than her, I'm not sure. Most of my focus since we had them was on the family and not the marriage.

MAYBE PART of ^^^ it, especially if you marginalized her parenting skills OR if she felt you did...so she got to feel like the odd man out, which would make OM more appealing b/c he'd say he "gets" her.

I often used the family as reasons that we didn't do things in our marriage (vacations, date nights, etc.) when she wanted to.

Why didn't you go on trips or date nights when she wanted/need to? Earlier you said you DID do date nights....which is it?

My parents were that way. Her parents were much more focused on themselves first and family second (my opinion.)

This^^^ is such a great example of you making her family "wrong" to have date nights or to focus on their m. You are judging them. (Hence the term "selfish".)

Thing is, the "family" suffers More if/when the marriage that serves as the foundation of THE Family, ends...

so to ME, a couple that focuses on their relationship first is doing a huge giant favor FOR THEIR family..

Time spent as a couple is NOT time deducted from the family, it's time spent on strengthening the ground underneath the family unit, and HELPS the family as a whole...

Sounds as if SHE wanted more time with you as a couple (a love language of hers might be quality time) and you did not value it as much. So her needs went unmet AND furthermore, you did not merely dismiss her concerns or her comments about wanting time alone with you, but you made her "wrong" to want it.

Any possibilities there?




She told me at some point during the BD that she felt she lost her identity as an individual (because of me)

what does that^^ mean, to YOU?


but time-wise it was since the kids were born.

I don't want to keep projecting our marital issues back on her, but I really don't know what went wrong. I've talked with her Sister, her Mom, her friends,

Do you know why this^^ must stop? B/C it really must. It will NOT bring her back home to you....if anything, you are making the road home rougher and your job is to keep the road home, paved and smooth.

The more people you involve or discuss OM with, the harder you are making it on her AND you. It always comes off as you trying to manipulate AND OR vilify her and it can easily make you appear vindictive and trying to be the "right" party in this.

Don't corner her, b/c the more you challenge her choices the more you force her to defend them.

my IC, the MC, to try and get some insight on why she's unhappy and no one can figure it out.


IF they know why, there may be reasons they are not able to tell you.


Mostly everyone has said that it seemed as if our M was fine and they didn't think that was the main reason. The only insight on the reasons within our M, is what I said above.

I hope everyone doesn't think I'm trying to cover my own issues up in the marriage, but I really don't see what went wrong.

Then I guess you have a lot more digging to do. And I don't mean snooping. Have you considered hiring a DB coach? I found mine to be instrumental in opening my eyes to things I COULD DO, a whole lot more

[MCS]

Thanks, I need to re-read this in more detail tonight and think about it. A couple things definitely are resonating with me now.

As far as getting others involved, that was early on prior to DB and getting through the books. I haven't talked with them in over a month once I got my head on straight. I guess I'm just saying that on the "surface" there didn't seem to be any core unresolved issues in our M. I know that's not the case, but part of why this has been so elusive.

[MCS]

25years,

Yes, I've thought about a DB coach, I just haven't pulled the trigger on contacting one. Thanks for all of the insight, I think I'm making progress here with all of the help on the forum.

I agree the contacting of family/friends is being controlling. It was a mistake I made early on (first month or so) that I have since corrected. I have a small circle of 2-3 people that my W doesn't know that I confide in. We have a few joint friends that know what's going on, but they have been directly involved with us since the S. They weren't positive at the time, but they are also the one's that pretty much convinced me there was an OM. My W lied to each of them and they realized the inconsistencies in her stories and figured there was something that she was covering up.

I understand her feeling that I was disappointed in things and I can say that is one of the areas that affected the M. Like I said, I'm very critical on myself and I think that I treated my W that way sometimes. To reflect on the M, I think she would say that she felt she couldn't do things the way I wanted them to be done. I would agree that there were some things that were that way, but not many. Most of the time when I identified that she felt this way, we would try to resolve the issue.

Also, I think that the balance of work was not equal in her mind as you said. I really did try to make it as balanced as possible. When she identified I needed to help with things, I did. We did share just about all of the chores equally, parenting was probably 60/40. We talked about this when things would happen and I thought they would get resolved. The first I heard that this was an ongoing issue was at BD.

I wouldn't say I was "displeased" a lot nor was I unhappy often. I know I brought stress home from work, which was my comment about being grumpier than I should have been. However, I don't think any of these were at an unhealthy level for myself or the M. I was just trying to say on the post that I did let my emotions known and sometimes I let stress at work affect my mood at home. I don't think anyone, including her, would characterize me as a moody or an unhappy person.

We did go out on date nights, probably once a month. We had one scheduled the weekend after the BD. The issue in the marriage with dates, vacations, her own nights out and all was that we never got to the point that we both felt balanced. She felt we didn't do enough and I thought we did too many. This issue got worse once we had kids. I know that I didn't focus on us as a couple compared to us as a family. I actually wrote this in the letter to her during the week of BD.

I wasn't trying to say that the relationship was more important than family was wrong, just that our upbringing was a contributing factor to both of us being at an impasse on the amount of time spent with the family.

To be critical (she would be too,) when I said her parents were focused on "themselves" over the family, I meant they spent more time as individuals and not on their relationship or family. This caused issues in the W's childhood that may be underlying for the current situation, but I'm not going to discuss here.

I do agree with your assessment of Quality Time and probably making her feel it was wrong for her to feel that way, uggh. That one stings. We did LL about 5 years ago and I hate to admit it here, but I forget what her's were. I need to get the book back out and read it again. To make it worse, after the kids were born the Quality Time reduced even more.

According to my W; with OM they would hang out on their day's off and supposedly just go to the movies, lunch, etc. It then expanded out from there. So that's some credence in your theory. Double ugh...

Lastly, as far as losing her identity, I need to think on that one. I never have figured out exactly what she meant. My gut is that she feels as if being a mom/professional/wife has caused her to lose who she really wants to be, but I don't know. To tag this with what I said above, maybe it was the lack of Quality Time for the M and for herself made her feel trapped?