Mozza (4)

[Mozza]

Why would you want to make W jealous? How's that keeping the road home paved smooth?

I'm also curious to hear answers to Hoju's question. Is it a big no-no that the W has reasons to be jealous? Or is it just in this case that it appears to have been told to her with this purpose? (Again, I did not set out to do this, it came as a relevant comment in passing)

By the way, this seems like a huge mind-reading exercise! It is also very possible that my WAW didn't catch any of that. I don't know - we don't know - what she thought when I mentioned the source of my GAL activity.

You do GALing because YOU enjoy doing them. Just for you. Not to get a reaction out of W. Stop looking in her direction, Mozza

This GAL activity, as with all others, is for me. I didn't accept it to get a reaction from her out of it (it's not the kind of thing she's interested in). I did not contact that girl from the group, she invited me (again: she's not THE girl anyway). I did not try to bring it up at lunch, it was a natural answer to my WAW's question about my activities. I did not think in advance that I could mention that group. I realized it as it was passing my lips and thought about it afterwards. My fault, and I'll admit to it, is to wonder afterwards whether that made her jealous.

[Mozza]

You're not the bad guy. What you're doing is ineffective.

Thanks. Very true. I often think of DB as a method to achieve something, not a therapy to get at the bottom of things. It doesn't matter who's wrong or right, it's about achieving a goal. Thanks for the reminder and focus.

What do you want?

You need to articulate that very clearly before any more advice here will do you any good.

I want to reconcile with my W and the mother of my kids. I want to build a lasting and loving relationship with her.

[Mozza]

My fault, and I'll admit to it, is to wonder afterwards whether that made her jealous.

Let me correct that: my fault, even if it was unintentional, was to mention the group at all. It was a reminder of something that made her jealous and I didn't need to awaken bad feelings in her.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

You asked about our thougts on Hoju's questions. Here are mine.

Is it really that bad that he mentioned the invite came from a female? I'm a young man but from my experiances nothing builds desire like the thought of being unattainable. I'm not seeing how this could be bad if it comes up casually and naturally, we are moving forward with or WITHOUT our WAS after all.

The guilt trip over the fact that he "could" have had an A but didn't was completely out of line, regardless of DBing or not that topic should never come up in a relationship.

It is the content here....the operative word being "female" with the goal of riling up W's jealousy when a simple "had a great time with a group of friends" would have sufficed. One needs not to belabor through words that you're 'moving on' when one's detachment and GALing actions demonstrate this. Just do it. Be quietly confident in yourself.

Back to the "girl" comment. Here's how W would have seen it.

Mozza: This girl invited me out to this group activity. Ya know, since you've been unfaithful....I had an opportunity to cheat on you with her. But I CHOSE not to do so because I am morally superior to you! I am so much better than you. So there. Na, na, na., na...[with a smug look]

W: Geez. He's throwing it in my face and trying to rub it in my nose!! What a shumuck. He hasn't changed one jot. Whew...I am glad I have OM. Mozza is a real loser.

[Mozza]

"Research shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the most effective way to modify someone's behavior -- to get him/her to do more or less of something -- is to reinforce or positively reward that person when that individual is doing what we want him/her to do!" - Divorce Remedy, page 105 (section: Cheerleading).

I wish that more people preaching the DR gospel would apply it to the way they give advice. I used to think I needed to develop a thicker skin, that it's tough love, that only the results count. But reading this passage made me realize that the problem is not entirely in me being negatively affected by the critical nature of the advice I receive, but also in the way it is provided. I'm only human after all and I'm at my weakest.

I had a great lunch with my W yesterday and applied the DB principles 99% of the time, except when an unplanned comment escaped my lips and might have caused her to be jealous or guilty. Yet, the focus of the discussion has been on mind reading what my W might have thought of this comment and how I messed up months of efforts.

I had an awful, awful day. My W's departure hit me like a ton of brick, once again. It happens several times a week, if not every day. I was crying in silence on the phone with a client this afternoon. I just can't believe my life project is in the drain, that my love is gone, that I lost half my kids. This is the same problem I had in the couple: I look strong but I'm sensitive inside and I can't take as much as I look. Well now I'm showing it: I'm hurt.

This is not all about me: I've been around these boards where distressed people are begging some commenters to go easy on them, or literally to stop commenting. These are people too and they respond the same way our spouses respond to our criticism. We need to practice what we preach and encourage them in an effective way.

"What you focus on expands" - DR, page 111.

[CaliGuy]

Mozza ... I get it .. I truly do. I was in your spot a year ago .. that fresh sting .. it is brutal, feels like an elephant is sitting on your chest, you can not sleep , can't eat ... and any one little mistep is magnified.

Breathe .. take a step back, take a break from it for a little while.

Truth is, you are in for a long fight to save this M, put the focus on you, do things for you. There is a reason for this .. took me a bit to learn .. its a way to get your swagger back, and thats really tough to do when you have found there is an OM in the picture.

But the 180's the GAL, the Detaching ... its to put the focus on you, I think the 2x4's you recieved were to try to get you to not do things to get a reaction from your WAW, that's the big mistakes we all probably have made ... leave details out .. become mysterious.

Hang in there .. I wish I found this place shortly after my W left ... I could have saved 6 months of serious damage that I am now struggling to start rebuilding.

[Wonka]

Mozza,

If it stings, then look at the source of your hurt. Dig deep and you'll see the answer(s) right there. After several attempts to get you to see how "wrong-headed" you were in regard to the "female/jealousy" comments to no avail, sometimes making a much more pointed comment and/or analogy gets through one's thick head.

Most often the vets are able to pinpoint with fearsome accuracy what the real issue is at hand. And often times right on target. We are here to OPEN your eyes to what behaviors, patterns, and actions are contributing to the harmful effects on the WAS and the M.

This isn't Charm School for sure!

[Mozza]

How does that fit with the quoted research showing it doesn't work?

You did not convince me regarding my comment about the source of my GAL. I can see how it could have been perceived as a way to "brag" about being faithful. That's why I explained that between me and my W, this anecdote has always been understood as evidence of my commitment, a moment when she realized that I was also faithful by choice and love, not just for lack of opportunity. I explained that, even though she offered me to have an A as payback, I didn't want to put our M at risk for so little (I wasn't that interested in sex with other women), and I couldn't know how she would react (she's been cheated on before and it hurt her very much). The only (faint) interest she's taken in it afterwards was to guess who it might have been (I never told her). My W apologized for cheating the day she confessed it and I never asked her to apologize again.

Where you take such assurance that your analysis is always right, I don't know. I greatly appreciate the new points of view, I give them serious thought, I respond honestly because I only ask to change my views, which I often do. It's my ticket out of this hell and nobody knows me in person here, so there's no point in being too proud. As much as I've gained new perspectives, I can't just say "Yes yes of course" to every idea. There's no reason to become mean to convince me, especially in disregard of the extra information that I provide. But of course, the more I explain it, the more I act defensive and prove that I must be wrong. I can't win. Let's just move on.

But I'll say it one more time: I wish that some were more considerate in their way to generously provide advice on these boards. There are a lot of vulnerable people around here, with real names, lives and feelings. Let's follow the DB principles with each other.

/rant

[Mozza]

I finally had a quiet evening at home. It's been several weeks. I was really happy not to have scheduled anything. My GALing is becoming exhausting and not all that satisfying. I believe in balance and now I need a little more down time. Tomorrow, sports and an overnight guest. Thursday, nothing so far. Friday, my week with the kids starts and we'll take it slow for the first time in two months.

I think I was down today because I was high yesterday. That's how it usually goes, often within the same day.

[Mozza]

By the way, a close friend of mine, following my sitch very closely, asked me why I loved my W so much. He then gave me a long list of her shortcomings that I told him over the last few weeks through my complaining. I ended up having to defend her and explain my own responsibilities in the separation. It was really helpful and more about myself that I would have expected. Highly recommended.