Mozza (3)

[Mozza]

New thread. Feels like I'm slowly making my way to "Mozza (25)"...

RECAP

First thread: Fresh separation: trying to play by the book (15 days: Oct 14 to Oct 28)
I arrived here about a month after my wife left. Thankfully, I had read other resources and started applying DB-like techniques.
- I was caught by surprise by the separation but aware of her complaints about the R.
- We almost broke up in 2009 when she wanted to leave under similar circumstances.
- I'm seeing a shrink and a lot of friends.
- I don't know if she has an OM, but she denied it when she left.
- Searching for an explanation: Was I too mean? too nice? hypomania? new job? bad friend?
- Weird request to change our D6's godmother to her bad friend.

Second thread: Mozza (2) (8 days: Oct 28 to Nov 4)
- OM confirmed through kid's stories on Halloween day.
- Very disturbed by her Halloween plans to go out in S&M outfit and get drunk.
- Went through a day of anger and a day of detachment. Both helped.
- Lunch postponed. Some testy exchanges with W. She's upset I can't take the kids on her birthday weekend.
- Taking some initiatives: returning the rest of her stuff, refusing to change godmother, no more stroller parking.
- W calling out of the blue to get support because D6 is acting up.
- Started a list of DB success stories.
- Decided to refocus on my faults rather than blaming W.

[Mozza]

Emailed my W about her insurance to cover the costs of my therapy. She replied "You still see a therapist?" I'm glad she's curious and perhaps surprised about it. She might have thought that I would have dropped it after she moved out.

She also implied that she stopped consulting. She probably feels fantastic now, her problems solved. I felt her IC was an enabler anyway.

We'll stop the mind reading right here.

She confirmed lunch for tomorrow! Hope I'll sleep more than the 4.5 hours I managed last night... Also: I need to prepare! Objective: get out of there alive with a few improvements on coordination about the kids.

[Mozza]

I went to a music show with a friend last night. It was a standing room and I love to dance so I had a very, very good time. It reminded me of how much I loved to dance with my W. We'd connect a lot, flirt and laugh. We received compliment on how we dance together. Of course, we haven't danced in years. But instead of dwelling, I put it on my list of things to do in the future. Becoming a man only a fool would leave.

[Mozza]

Here are the things I want to discuss at lunch with my W tomorrow. Since she left home on Sept 20, we had one lunch on Sept 30, so these are fairly rare. She has an OM as far as I can tell, so this is not about reconciliation. To me, this is mostly logistical. She seems happy to see me, probably for cake-eating.

1. Get me onto her insurance to cover my therapy. I'd cover any costs involved.
2. Ask her to park the stroller at the daycare instead of my home.
3. No unilateral decisions when we disagree about the kids. She's done so recently (no to camp, new babysitter).
4. Agree that I will send her back all of her remaining stuff on Friday.
5. Discuss again whether I can have the kids for dinner once during her week.
6. See if she wants to go to the parent-teacher meeting together next week. I do.

I expect most of these things to take just a few seconds to settle. I've no intention to be mean or try to punish her. Still, I don't think it will be all that pleasant for her because she prefers to be in control of every step.

Things she might bring up.

1. Switch godmother to her bad friend, Anna. I'll say no. Their relationship is too volatile.
2. Some arrangement for her birthday weekend. I said no because I've plans but could accommodate a few hours. Want to show flexibility, but not enable new fun life. Can't decide.
3. Kids' behavior. She struggles, always has. I will listen, validate. I don't think she really wants advice.
4. Divorce? I doubt it but I always fear it.
5. OM. Most likely not. Will have to bite my tongue because I want to reply "Yeah, I've known for a while."

Thoughts?

[jim0987]

Its good you're trying to be ready for this meeting. I hope it goes well.

In terms of advice I've got a couple of thoughts but I best leave the advice to someone who knows better than me.

[GoatGal]

Mozza,

I think your list is very reasonable and shows that you are only interested in meeting the needs of your children.

Nothing there for her to argue about. Hopefully!

If she balks at anything, simply reiterate that these are things you want spelled out to make sure the kids are taken care of.

You do not have to get into any D talk or any R at all for that matter.

Be prepared for her trying to steer things that way; she has an agenda.

But you can cut it off, saying, "I am not prepared to discuss this with you at this time. I need some time to think of how I'd like to respond and you deserve a well-thought out answer..." That sort of thing. IF she pushes, just say: "Let's plan a time to discuss this, but I'm sorry, I won't discuss it with you today."

Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst.

You're doing the right thing by having a game plan, Mozza!


---(G)GGG

[gan]

Mozza, I think your list looks good. Maybe just have a think about where you can be more flexible about the solution and/or give her the opportunity to offer up a solution to the problem. I don't know enough about your sitch to speak to any particular point but 2, 3, 5 and possibly 6 on your list and 1 and 2 on her list read to me like you could put her in defensive mode pretty quickly if you're not careful about HOW you discuss them. My 2 cents (as a non-vet).

[Mozza]

WAAAA! I had to postpone tomorrow's lunch with W because I JUST got confirmation of very rare opportunity with foreigners and local big wigs. Email exchange (yes, she wrote twice in a row).

Me: Darn. I just remembered that I have a lunch tomorrow. Can you do Friday? Sorry.

W: No.

W: And there I just want to say: no big deal, I'm just the children's mother, but hey you have your own life. Too bad.

I want to reply: "Sorry, I'm not making this up and I agree we should meet. It's not something I can move, nor Thursday. If you really can't on Friday, do you prefer next week or have another idea?"

Is it a good thing that she throws at me that I have my own life? (true!) How should I reply? I feel I want to reassure her too much. I'm very uncomfortable with making her upset at me because it feels like getting further from reconciliation. Then again, she left me and half the kids, has an OM and lies about it...

Ideas?

[Zues126]

I have an answer!!! This one time I am BRILLIANT!!!

1) rewrite her text message to you. Seriously. On paper. Write it the way you WISH she wrote it. For example: "oh, that's too bad but I'm excited about how things are going for you at work. Sometime I'd live to hear about it. Unfortunately Friday doesn't work for me. Well have to figure out a different time. Talk soon!"

2) type a reply to THAT message.

See? The reply still works, yet you're able to reply in a friendly no -threatened manner. I invented this after working for a manager named Josh that sent SCATHING emails that made you want to quit without fail. I call it be "Josh translator". I was the only one that could respond to his emails without coming across rude or defensive.

[MCS]

Mozza,

I had a long time of not trying to get my W upset. However, when i found out about the OM, it seemed that she started to reconcile only to have her hang out with me and the kids for a weekend of cake eating, I got fed up and decided to detach and just focus on the kids and their needs for now. I can say that my decisions are much clearer in my mind and I feel like I have a better understanding of the overall situation.

I still wonder whether the end result will be good, but. I can tell you now that I'm not fearful of upsetting her, just presenting D related things like finances, separating our stuff, kids plans, etc. seems to be showing her the reality of the situation that she has decided to make. She had spent 2 months ignoring all of that and I let her, because I didn't want to make her feel uncomfortable. But now, I think I can see that she is starting to realize that she has to think through these areas and it's painful to do.

[1foot2]

I may have missed it, but is there something urgent re: the children s care that is bein discussed at this lunch? If not, I wouldn't take the bait here. She's miffed that you aren't making her top priority. I identify with your need to smooth things over, I'm constantly fighting those urges. I'd just simply reiterate that you have plans you can't change and say you are otherwise flexible.

[gan]

Zeus - that is BRILLIANT! I really like that approach. Kudos to you.

[LisaB]

Zues, I agree with Ganb8te! What a terrific technique.

Mozza, obviously she is annoyed that you cancelled on her. But also I am confused. If you just got a surprise opportunity for another work related appointment and that is why you had to cancel, why did you say you "just remembered" it? It makes you sound bad, I have to say. You made plans with her a few days ago but then suddenly remembered you can't make it? if something related to work suddenly came up you should say that. Or maybe you just left that out of the story to us?

Anyway, I love Zues' idea. But in this case perhaps you are at fault for her being annoyed, I'm sorry to say. I have been on the receiving end of these types of messages from my WAH (he suddenly realized he double booked and can't make it) and it does not make me happy. It makes me feel he is disorganized.

I hope I'm just missing something in the story. I'd reply with a short message explaining that something came up for work, you are very sorry, and you hope you can reschedule at a time that works for her. Ask her to suggest some dates.

Good luck!
Lisa

[HPoirot]

Very nice technique Zues. I will be using it.

[jim0987]

Hi mozza. I think Lisa is right - your message was (harshly translating for effect)

'I'm disorganised and double booked, and so I decided you are less important than something I forgot about'

When instead you could have said

'I'm really sorry to do this to you but I'm going to need to cancel lunch. An amazing one off opportunity has come up that is too good to miss and it can't happen any other time. I can tell you more about it when I see you. Would Friday be OK for you instead?'

What do you think?

[Mozza]

Zues126 - Ha! I love this method. I'll have to apply it in many other places. Thanks for sharing!

MCS - Yes, I also find it hard to walk this fine line, especially since she gets upset at me very easily. She seems to assume the worst intentions each time, even though I make every effort to remain cordial and fair. It's worse than during the relationship.

1foot2 - Noting is life-threatening urgent, but we have accumulated many things to discuss. For instance, we had to give an answer for camp last week and we haven't agreed yet. It's our first such disagreement since S and it would be much easier in person than by phone or email.

LisaB - I agree it can be annoying - I know because she postponed this lunch on me 2-3 times already! It was not revenge though: I had gotten the invitation last week and forgot to pencil it in my agenda. I only got the confirmation yesterday so it was both "remembered" and "last minute".

jim0987 - This seems like a perfect answer for a... normal relationship! I'm not sure how it follows the DB principles. I wrote "Darn/Shoot/Heck" and "Sorry". I proposed another date. I don't want to tell her too much about my reasons, but it might be something I'll bring up when we finally have lunch, as a good GAL example.

I didn't reply last night. I think I'll go with "I understand the frustration: we're having a hard time finding a day that works. I'm still available on Friday and all of next week at the moment. Sorry again for the trouble."

[Mozza]

So, we're going to meet on Monday. She's seeing her therapist on Friday, which is surprising given that her previous email had suggested she had stopped seeing her. I'm glad she's still consulting as she realizes that splitting up didn't solve all of her problems.

She just wrote me some snark about me probably being busy on Monday, but mostly, she wrote me the longest email in a while about how none of my family and friends have contacted her since the separation. She says it's proof those relationships were superficial and that no one thought we were a good match. She assumes they're relieved. She says she's too focused on getting on with her life to think about it much, but when she does, she gives them the middle finger (approximate translation...).

This is so sad. She always assumes the worst. I realize that I don't really know what her emotions are at the moment. I assume she's mostly happy that she's acted on her desire to split, that she's on a high with the OM and that she struggles somewhat to adapt to her new responsibilities. I don't understand why she's so upset at me, even if she left me and I act cordially.

I don't know how to react. I want to give her reassurance that people are not relieved, quite the opposite. Part of me thinks that she wants to feel loved by me and my family to come back, but I learnt not to trust my instinct. She's still with the OM, as far as I know.

[Ahoy]

Mozza, I wouldn't touch that pile of poo with a 10-foot pole. She is feeling sorry for herself (even though she caused this mess). It's hard to feel like you might be judged by people (your family), so she's going to judge them FIRST and paint everything in a negative light to justify her nonsense.

Don't reassure her. Don't respond at all. I wouldn't dignify that childish behavior with a response. Let her stew in her juices and get on with your life.

[LisaB]

Hey Mozza,
Yeah I get it. She is acting a bit like my WAH acted when he first left. You are still in the very early days, though I know it is no fun to hear that.

Just like the others said (and you are doing) ignore her rants. Validate when you can, and when she is mean or very unreasonable you don't have to reply to it.

As I said, your situation is new so she is really in the fog and will be saying lots of crazy things. Don't worry too much about it. In a month she might say the exact opposite and have no recollection of saying the earlier stuff.

Just focus on yourself and what changes you need to make to become a better person and husband and father. And then see how you can show those changes to her. Don't get too caught up in her baiting.

Good luck on Monday!

Lisa

[Mozza]

Argh, but it would be so hard not to respond! It seems like she would only grow more distant and offended, making reconciliation even more difficult. I want to tell her that my people are simply under shock and don't know how to act.

She's very vulnerable and will protect herself fiercely not to be hurt. I read distress signals in many of her communications. Here, I hear: "Tell me I'm wrong, tell me we were a good match, tell me your people miss me and believed in us."

[jim0987]

Its dangerous ground for sure. I would guess that we shouldn't do anything to assuage their guilt - its theirs to deal with.

[1foot2]

This may not be the proper time or venue for you to express this, but i had a breakthrough of my own last week when i realized that it was important to draw a line around my friends/family with WAW. i stated clearly to her that any anxiety she has about how they feel is her responsibility.

i think deep down your W has no reason to truly suspect that your family secretly never liked her and is relieved to have her gone. an insecurity in her might be telling her to believe that, but its a defense mechanism. i know that deep down my W knows my family loves her, and that it is she who is damaging that relationship.

when the time comes, you should express that to your W and simply repeat it any time she brings it up again. its a boundary!

[sandi2]

First of all, you do not have solid proof there is an A, right? Your child talked about her friend staying over and sleeping on the couch. He may be her gay pal, for all you know. Even if it's not likely the chance, you are assuming things about her that may not be correct. For example, thinking she would be on a high. Even if she is in an A, every day will not be like a trip to Disney Land. When the reality of her choices begin to hit her in the face, she won't like the experience. Guess who is her target of her bad mood? You are, of course, b/c you are the problem of everything wrong in her life!

Her email is clearly baiting you into more of the spew. Why should you reassure her of your family's feelings? Most in-laws do not strive to be best friends with the one who hurt their loved one. Or they may not be sure how to approach her, since she was the one who left. Most families accept the new in-law simply b/c they have M into the family. A few of us may have been fortunate enough to be friends before, or even after, the family became "legal", but I wouldn't say it should be expected to remain the same after a S/D. She should be old enough to realize that is part of the fall-out of broken marriages.....it causes broken families (and extended families). But then, that would require her to be use some logic part of her thought process, which seems almost impossible in her state.

I would suggest you not respond when she's on a rampage, or snarky moods (of sorts). Trust me, during these times, there is no win for you!

Ahoy is absolutely correct. Your W is a big girl and she needs to put on her big girl panties. Don't volunteer to change her emotional diaper when she is angry at the results of her choices.

[Ahoy]

DO. NOT. DO. IT.

Really. You will be sorry if you go down this path with her. She will say things that will cause you more pain. She will make you and your family into the bad guy -- the cause behind all of her poor decision making.

She knows you want to get her back. Trust me. She doesn't need you to keep telling her. Let her think whatever the heck she wants. That is not your problem any more.

Believe this: NOTHING you say right now will make a difference. It could also make it worse. Better to back off and let her sort through her emotions on her own.

[Little]

^^^^^^

[25yearsmlc]

Here are the things I want to discuss at lunch with my W tomorrow. Since she left home on Sept 20, we had one lunch on Sept 30, so these are fairly rare.
She has an OM as far as I can tell, so this is not about reconciliation. To me, this is mostly logistical. She seems happy to see me, probably for cake-eating.


DING DING! Mind reading. Stop it. Besides, why not assume the BEST of our spouse instead of the worst? B/C of expectations?
Expectations are Not the same as assuming good things; there is overlap, but be mindful it and don't do it.

Give them something to live up to, and besides, evidence shows that when we are waiting for the other shoe to drop ("oh here it comes. He'll yell at me and be a jerk and....") that it increases the chances of that happening.

People tend to live UP/DOWN to our expectations when we show them. Greet her warmly and set the tone that way.

Be flexible on ALL but the most crucial of things.


1. Get me onto her insurance to cover my therapy. I'd cover any costs involved.
2. Ask her to park the stroller at the daycare instead of my home.
3. No unilateral decisions when we disagree about the kids. She's done so recently (no to camp, new babysitter).
4. Agree that I will send her back all of her remaining stuff on Friday.
5. Discuss again whether I can have the kids for dinner once during her week.
6. See if she wants to go to the parent-teacher meeting together next week. I do.

I expect most of these things to take just a few seconds to settle. I've no intention to be mean or try to punish her. Still, I don't think it will be all that pleasant for her because she prefers to be in control of every step.


why do you describe her negatively so often? Do you love this woman or not?

Things she might bring up.

1. Switch godmother to her bad friend, Anna. I'll say no. Their relationship is too volatile.

No need to malign her "bad friend" (oh, did you say you were working on Not being so judgmental? Just asking...)

If it's not in the interests of the children, say that. But I'm not sure if it's something you c an do so easily, anyhow. In the Catholic Church, which is serious about God parenting, the God parents have to attend classes and get counseling in the Church. Is anything like that required for it?

But if she pushes for the other friend, and this is not official anyhow, why not let your kid have 2 Godmothers? Also how old is the child?

2. Some arrangement for her birthday weekend. I said no because I've plans but could accommodate a few hours. Want to show flexibility, but not enable new fun life. Can't decide.

Forget it. Your motives are too polluted (don't want to enable her to have fun"????? & you'll be seen as weak. You said "no can do" and if you cave now, BECAUSE she was snotty, she will always expect you to do so, especially when she gets "mad" - and then you are rewarding exactly the behavior that allows for less respect, and respect is a KEY ingredient for love.

(I'm NOT referring to OM!!) She was snotty when you said you made plans. You said you could not change your plans. And if you could not change them before, then don't now...(Did you THEN Offer her a few hours OR are you now saying you want to?)

Bottom line, You made plans long ago, she didn't. Don't roll over on this. And do not explain your plans or why they are "important" to you. They are not important to her at this time so nothing short of getting a new iron lung for you to breathe with, will suffice in her eyes. (Even then she could ask you to re-schedule... ).

Instead, offer to watch them another time b/c you "naturally, want all the time" you can get with your kids...right??

THAT is flexibility without surrender.

NOTE I hate using terms from wars, but could not think of another one atm.


3. Kids' behavior. She struggles, always has. I will listen, validate. I don't think she really wants advice.

Then don't give it. Listen and validate and do not presume she is at fault, per se. You are not there to judge her parenting & besides, you wee not a witness to it so you don't know specifics anyhow. OH- And Credit her for caring about them. Do not attack her mothering. Do not assume she isn't her own worst critic, chances are she is..

4. Divorce? I doubt it but I always fear it.



IF she brings it up, you can say you are "Still processing so much and going thru such a big transition, I'd prefer we table that for now, until I'm a little farther down the road please..."

This^^^ shows you are CHANGING and that you are being very reasonable in asking her merely to "table it for now", while you process things and continue to transition (= becoming the man you were meant to become)

...make sense?


5. OM. Most likely not. Will have to bite my tongue because I want to reply "Yeah, I've known for a while."

Thoughts?

Say Nothing about OM. If she tells you of him, you could say "can't say it doesn't hurt, but you are of course free to do as you will. That's all I really can say now b/c obviously it's painful. I'd like to change topics now..."

Then YOU change the topic to something and pull off your Oscar award winning performance by immediately pepping up with a PMA and moving on to the topic you have pre-selected (which you must do before you see her!) and make that brief and then get the he11 out of there.

ALSO adopt this as a new mantra for IF & WHEN she brings up the marriage.

If she says something negative about it, (likely -- IF it is discussed at all)

And IF you agree with at least part of what she said, You Reply with:

"I'm so sorry I hurt you, W. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

Even if she says something way off base, or that you don't even recall (or that you see differently)

IF she says it hurt her, you make a similar reply to that, as above.

E.g., "Wow, that's not how I recall it at all, but I'm sorry you were hurt. If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

Both replies ^^ show change on your end, & awareness that change in YOU was needed. Neither reply is you being a doormat AND neither reply escalates things.

That^^^^ phrase became my mantra, and it helped me a lot.

Perhaps your goals for the talk, instead of all those above, could be the following:

1) LISTEN and gather "intel" from w. What bugged her the most or is now, what are her goals, etc. Not from you probing but from what she offers to tell you.

2) to express the desire you have for the above listed items, but showing flexibility ---and before you meet her, KNOW what is truly not negotiable to you. And don't let that small list become a long one...be flexible about almost everything.--


3) GOAL #3... have a conversation with w that includes at least one authentic compliment FROM YOU TO HER, without any expectation of reciprocity or gratitude. Your goal is delivering the message, not getting one back.

and

4) having the conversation NOT escalate.

Show her that you two can talk without you guilting her or shedding tears. By being more relaxed around her, she'll come to feel less threatened by these talks.

* Achieve these^^ and call it a "Great Day". It's progress.

Discussions of OM are not in your interest, in my opinion. IF she is still hiding him, that is far better than her saying "Oh btw, I LOVE OM way more than I ever loved you...in fact, I never did love YOU and OM is so wonderful and perfect and far better than you ever could be. He is my soul mate and first REAL love and...blah blah blah."

I'm one of those who thinks the WAS NOT admitting an affair actually helps the situation b/c in my opinion it means they are not ready to go public with it. The more public they are with OPs, the more resolute they are and that does not bode as well for an eventual reconcialiton.

Make sense?


Finally, When she says something emotional "I am sad/angry" you can then express interest AND concern. Here are examples for when she expresses a negative
NOT directly related to YOU:

"Sorry you're sad/mad, w, can you elaborate on that?"

"I can see that. Yes it sukks. How can I support/help you?"

"That's tough. Yes that is hard to deal with. I hate it when that happens too."

If it's about you, see the replies listed above about changing things if you had it all to do over again.

Any chance you can thank her for waking you up b/c MAYBE, before hand you were more of a spectator in life and not enough of a participant. So yes, you are grateful for this despite all the pain b/c there is growth from that pain.

SIDENOTE (Anyone else wish we could learn MORE from great experiences and not have to endure horrifically painful ordeals, in order to grow?
For instance, why won't God let me win the jumbo lottery, and test me that way? I promise not to be a jerk.)

Good luck Mozz.

[gogofo]

25yearsmlc

Every time I read one of your threads I learn so much, not matter what point my situation is in.

My W is having big issues with forgiveness and expresses feeling angry/mad when reviewing how our marriage was to how I am now. i.e. not romance, not helping much around the house, not feeling respected, etc.

We seem to get going and then a bad memory derails us, and I don't know what I can do, if anything, to help. I feel at a loss in our progress.

Mozza, sorry for the hijack.

25 pretty much lays out is easily understandable terms how to interact with your spouse. I would recommend read and reread her advice. I have read it multiple times and am still learning.

[Mozza]

Wow wow wow. I'm so impressed and grateful for the advice I get here. On the family email, you guys really pulled me off a cliff. I was going to respond if so many of you with so much experience didn't think it was a bad idea.

I will read and re-read all that you've posted here and react in due time. Much GAL-ing in the meantime. Thank you so much.

[Mozza]

Now the bad news.

She called me. Or rather, she texted me and we scheduled a call. Here's what we discussed. It lasted about 20 minutes. I was walking outside, she was somewhere inside.

1. She's puzzled that I take a long time to respond and sometimes don't even respond. I told her I was busy and that there was no intent in the delays. Sometimes I felt there was nothing to reply or didn't know what to say. She said she's disappointed communication is so minimal between us because she was hoping we'd be better at it, considering we have the kids. She said we'd be in talks for the next 13-15 years and that the teenage years wouldn't be easy either.

2. She asked about my mood, getting through the separation. I said I wasn't ready to discuss it much, but volunteered that it had been a difficult time but that I had realized that I needed to pick myself up. There was a silence at the end and I didn't ask her how she felt.

3. She really wanted to know what I think about my family and friends not contacting her. I said I had taken stock of her emotion but had nothing to say. She insisted to discuss the "fact" that they don't contact her and I said I thought they might not know what to do. She brought up the fact that she called my parents but they weren't there and never returned her call even though they have the call display tech. I told her they don't use it. She was skeptical but had to let go. I talked to my parents afterwards and I'm right: they didn't know she called.

4. I told her about the stroller parking at the daycare. She resisted more than I had anticipated. She really wanted to drop it off at my place. Her excuse was the strollers can't be locked at the daycare and are exposed to rain. I explained that the other parents do it anyway. Also, I told her I'm not comfortable with her daily visits to my apartment, where she can snoop. I told her it's uncomfortable knowing she will drop by. She said she was disappointed we couldn't keep helping each other like this.

5. She insisted on having me promote their international heritage to the kids. We're in my country and she has several nationalities. I said I was ok with this and probably went too far when I said "Years ago, I married a mixed-heritage woman, so you've got the right guy." It sounded to much like "I love you" to me.

6. We discussed the transfer of her remaining stuff from me to her on Friday. I told her I'd try to find everything and that she should send me an email if she thought of something. She said it would be hard to do from a distance. I told her I'd do my best to pack everything.

7. I told her we needed to make more joint decisions for the kids and explained why I think D6 need to go to the 3-day camp. She listened and "nodded" but I realized only afterwards that I didn't get her formal approval. I'll have to email her. She seemed distracted.

8. She insisted that email didn't work for her because she's too busy at work. In fact, she had some panic attack last week because of the pressure. She prefers calls and meetings. I only said I had already agreed to meet. I held my tongue from telling her that she can respond outside of business hours...

9. She brought up the fact she wanted to discuss the kids' education at some point because she's "not going to stay in this country for the rest of her life" (we live in my country, she's a foreigner). I said it was not for now, not for the next few months. She agreed.

10. At the end, she said it wasn't clear if we needed to meet on Monday after all, since I didn't seem all that interested. At some point though I had told her, quite formally: "I want to see you" -- here it sounds more direct, but it was more like "I'm not trying to avoid you" in the context. My mind reading says that she didn't like our conversation just now so she didn't want to have more of it on Monday.

General assessment: She probably feels rewarded that she asked for the phone call because she got way more information than in the last few weeks. I held my own somewhat, but given the advice above to keep shut, I probably said way too much. Overall, I'm deflated. I'm letting her comment about "next 13-15 years" affect me way to much. She often pushes the idea that it's really over between us. I don't know if she's trying to push my buttons, but I avoid taking the bait.

Hope I did well!

[25yearsmlc]

Its dangerous ground for sure. I would guess that we shouldn't do anything to assuage their guilt - its theirs to deal with.

No one said to assuage it, but make no mistake, guilt will never get a spouse home to stay.

Often the guilt morphs into resentment of the person "causing" the guilt. In nearly every affair I know of, involving a woman, (b/c often it's not the same for a man. Sexist or not, that's not just my experience but empirical data supports this and I can explain why, later)---

anyhow... woman having affairs ---, the woman has justified the affair in her mind AND HER HEART b/c of an unmet need in the marriage. Of course there are exceptions but this statement is more or less the "rule".

We have affairs b/c we think we have the right to, not b/c we think it's wrong but we'll do it anyhow and hope not to get caught (which tends to happen much more with men.)

So if I had an affair, (and once, I almost did. So I'll use my thought process from then, to explain)....and if my h got wind of the affair and confronted me --

chances are I'd give HIM a chance to try and make up to me for all HIS failings (b/c for most women, and for me, there's no way I'd have had an affair if he'd treated me well! In MY EYES, my h shoved me into the arms of OM...

so, who is HE to confront ME like I'm the bad guy?

If my h assumed an air of self righteous indignation and refused to own his role, I'd probably have filed for divorce rather than beg him to take me back from my "sins".

The danger to the marriage is greater when a woman has an affair precisely b/c the affair partner is much more likely to mean something to her, than an escort or date of some married man.

Most women who have affairs love or believe they love--their Extramarital partners and THAT is the threat to the marriage; ie., their emotions. If you try to convince them otherwise, you're making a bigger mistake b/c then you are forcing her to cement her emotions and for sure repress any good ones she has for you.

Confronting the wife forces her to choose while she's still very emotionally connected with her "new love," and does not allow her to process all of it and think out the consequences of it.

For ME, when I was sorely tempted by the attentive Kevin Costner look alike at work, who arrived in my life when my h was least attentive to me (his internship year, the 5th year of me doing all the childcare AND working full time, and with at least 3+ more years to go, with unrelentingly long hours....)


When he was home, which was rare, he'd fall asleep at the table or within 30 minutes of arriving home, and not wake up til it was time to prepare for another surgery. FUN! OR he'd be awake but uber irritable b/c of his sleep deprivation.

^^ THAT GETS OLD FAST...and it was years into this that the vulnerability of my life, came face to face with an interested OM.

I became convinced my h would "never really be there for me" b/c his work would not allow for it, or HE wouldn't or whatever. The OM was smart, funny and into everything I was into, or so I believed. OM made or had TIME for me.
I was so very tempted I cannot say for sure if it was ME who stopped me and or the fact that Desert Storm was happening and we were all military and the ramifications of that, and yada yada. But when I approached the line, I found I could not quite cross it.

Only the image of my h and or our children learning that I wanted out of the marriage, and their crushed expressions, along with some other moral aspects to all of this, got me to pause long enough to talk things out, with my dad (strangely helpful!) and then I spoke to a chaplain (a great help) and a shrink (worthless).

SO I stopped myself and kept my vows. No, I did not tell my h about poss OM but I did tell him we needed to make some changes in our life. And we did.

BTW, The chaplain did not lecture me but rather suggested other ways to get more passion in my life without threatening the marriage, like doing live theater. (A passion of mine, and he was spot on with that suggestion).

But in my heart, it was not that my h "Deserved" my fidelity so much as me not wanting to see my kids cry because of me, and b/c I felt that even though h

was too busy, someday he would not be. If he'd been this way without the demands of medical residency training, which is infamous for this, I would not have tried so hard.

If he had learned of OM and blamed me, at that time, I'd have felt unjustly cornered in to a decision and it would not have been to stay married, working my a$$ off for a man I barely saw, only to have him blame me for wanting some attention...I was 30 years old and giving him my best years, more or less being a single mom and a working mom, so

no, guilt isn't the same for a woman having an affair as it might be for a man.

But when men feel guilty they tend to attack, and women tend to flee.


Hope this helps without being too much of a hijack.

[25yearsmlc]

Haven't fully thought out your answers and I'm sure some could have been improved

but no ONE talk or act will end things for good (outside of violence).

So far it sounds decent enough from where I sit. I'll read your post more later on though and give it more thought.

I don't see much damage done by you, however. And do NOT read into her comments. A lot of what she is saying, is stuff she's "trying on" for size, if that makes sense.

In time it may become more uncomfortable.

Any discussion of your delight about the changes you are NOW making?

Also when she brings up HER r's with others, make sure its clear that those relationships are HER responsibility and,

while you'd NEVER do or say anything to harm those r's,

you also are not taking ownership of them. "W, I can't control your r with others. All I can do is support you with them and be loyal to you vis a vis my family. And I am doing that, but please make sure you make YOUR needs known to them b/c I for sure do not want to be a middleman. For one thing, better more direct communication was an issue for us and I hope it won't be anymore. I think That's best for everyone, BUT please do let me know if you don't agree. Fair enough?"

Good luck

[HPoirot]

But when men feel guilty they tend to attack, and women tend to flee.

Hope this helps without being too much of a hijack.

Thank you 25yearsmlc. Your post helped me a lot. I'm still not sure I should wait her LDEA out. Even so, I wonder what would happen if I just trusted my W? Showed her that I trust her? Told her so? I already told her that I don't trust her now. Still thinking about that one...

[MCS]

25year,

Wow, your explanation of what goes on in a woman's head when they're having an affair was spot on to my situation. I confronted her, had some good talks and then she seemed to regress once I started to put my foot down on her making a choice. I'm guessing it's the fine line between acceptance of OM and trying to get her to work on M that is where I need to focus.

Thanks.

MCS

[labug]

Mozza, what's with you and the stroller situation? I can't believe that's a hill you're willing to die on. What's really under that?

[Mozza]

Mozza, what's with you and the stroller situation? I can't believe that's a hill you're willing to die on. What's really under that?

I must be explaining it wrong. It's not about the stroller: it's about two visits a day to my house. She comes into the very small backyard (we're in the city) and appears in my office and kitchen window, morning and evening. This is very stressful and doesn't help me feeling better. We don't even interact: I just see her by the window and she might see me (increasingly so as it will be dark outside) and anything that's going on at my house.

Also, every other parent just drops the stroller at the daycare. I'm not asking her to do anything others don't.

Any clearer? Really, I'm not sure why it's not a no-brainer!

[labug]

It must be that most of us might see it as not that big of a deal. It must be a big deal to you.

That's why I asked: what's underlying your concern?
Do you think she's spying?
Do you think she's taking advantage of you by parking your child's stroller in your back yard?
It's not a visit, she drops off a stroller. She probably doesn't like it either.

Maybe there's some control stuff there on your part?

[Little]

I'd feel weird about the popping up like that, too. Twice a day? Yeah, I'd feel stalked, for sure.

[25yearsmlc]

Mozza, what's with you and the stroller situation? I can't believe that's a hill you're willing to die on. What's really under that?

I must be explaining it wrong. It's not about the stroller: it's about two visits a day to my house.

Oh, so you get TWO chances a day to show her the new you? See, a lot of folks complain about their changes not being shown to their WAS's b/c they do not get the chance to show them......

How long will it be, do you think, before you can change enough and become enough of the new improved DIFFERENT You, so that you can handle interactions with her?


She comes into the very small backyard (we're in the city) and appears in my office and kitchen window, morning and evening. This is very stressful and doesn't help me feeling better. We don't even interact: I just see her by the window and she might see me (increasingly so as it will be dark outside) and anything that's going on at my house.

1) WHY don't you interact? Get near the stroller (coincidentally of course but hey it's your house) And why is it a bad thing for her to see inside the home?

I mean, are you dating? Are you uber sloppy? Dating could work to your advantage....

Could you at least do something or act as if, and let her see that? b/c for ME this is such a huge opportunity, not a burden. I'm NOT clear why you see it as a bad thing. Truly, I must be a fool b/c it's NOT a "on brainer" to me.

I know LIttloe said she would "feel stalked" too. If I am not mistaken, Little also has few chances to show HER Walk away bf, her new self. So YES this does confuse me.



Also, every other parent just drops the stroller at the daycare. I'm not asking her to do anything others don't.

Any clearer? Really, I'm not sure why it's not a no-brainer!

She expressed concern the stroller might get stolen & that sounds like a plausible or even very reasonable concern. Are you certain ALL the other parents leave their strollers there? And is it heavy to carry? Or does it require her to get out and go inside the daycare to get it?

Are there ANY other reasons you can think of, that SHE has for not liking to get it there, other than theft?

I realize you don't share her concern, but it's not quite a "no brainier" to me or to your wife. How did you explain YOUR concern to her? Did you say you wanted more privacy? That's about the only thing I can think for you to say that isn't weak sounding (no offense!)

If it's that important to you, okay so be it. But I think there's a downside to your choice which you're not in touch with. And I can't see how your wife will agree with YOUR reasons for not wanting her to get it at your place.

It might make you look less flexible or a bit paranoid, or both.

Were any of your w's concern about the marriage, related to issues like this?
What did you say SHE WOULD SAY- if she were here?

And would SHE see this as more of the same old you?

[Mozza]

W JUST CONFIRMED OM BY EMAIL!

It's the colleague I suspected since the beginning. She wrote me that she meant to tell me in person but we canceled our lunches this week. She doesn't want me to hear it from the grapevine (too late!) and she wants me to know who hangs out with our daughters. She's also asking me to let her know if I meet significant someone that will hang out with the girls.

What do I respond?

I really want to say: "Don't worry, I've known for a long time."

[GoatGal]

I think I get what Mozza is saying about W popping up twice a day with the stroller.

He's hurt, angry, and needs to have a sense of safety. Sometimes seeing her going about her day, maybe just coming from or going to OM, it's too much.

His sitch is really new. It may be he needs a little space to detach from her actions.
Not forever, but for a bit.

The last thing I'd want when the pain was still fresh would be to see my H outside my window twice a day, knowing that he didn't love me, didn't want me, and was off to see his OW.

Sorry, but I think Mozza is well within his rights to insist that the stroller stays where everybody else's strollers stay. For now.

And yes, his W may well be scoping things out as far as he's concerned. Not that he has anything to hide, but IMO, she is not only eating cake, but she wants to make sure that he's keeping the home fires burning.

I doubt she'd be thrilled with him popping by her place twice a day for something, let's face it, is not critical.

I'm with 25years. You can express to her that, under the circumstances, you'd prefer she leave the stroller at the daycare. Period.

Of course, you can't force her, but you CAN pull the shades and ignore her when she shows up. FOR NOW.

Eventually, when you're feeling stronger and more in control of your emotions, you can revisit the situation, go out and say "Hi", whatever.

If we're supposed to draw boundaries to protect our well-being (not to control our spouses) and her daily visits are painful to Mozza at this time, then I think it's fine that he continues to be warm and upbeat when they're actually together, but he doesn't need to be available to her whenever, and he doesn't need to have his life under a microscope so she doesn't get upset.

As long as he doesn't come across cold or distant or angry, it's fine to be "too busy" to acknowledge her when she shows up, and maintain a level of privacy.

This is not punishment for her, it's survival for him, if I'm reading him correctly.
And this tactic is temporary for him to gain some equilibrium here.


---(G)GGG

[25yearsmlc]

I think I get what Mozza is saying about W popping up twice a day with the stroller.

He's hurt, angry, and needs to have a sense of safety. Sometimes seeing her going about her day, maybe just coming from or going to OM, it's too much.

His sitch is really new. It may be he needs a little space to detach from her actions.
Not forever, but for a bit.

I can see HIS need to detach, but that is on him, not her. Know what i mean? He seemed to think SHE was being weird or unreasonable and that's what I didn't get.

The last thing I'd want when the pain was still fresh would be to see my H outside my window twice a day, knowing that he didn't love me, didn't want me, and was off to see his OW.

Sorry, but I think Mozza is well within his rights to insist that the stroller stays where everybody else's strollers stay. For now.

And yes, his W may well be scoping things out as far as he's concerned. Not that he has anything to hide, but IMO, she is not only eating cake, but she wants to make sure that he's keeping the home fires burning.

I dont' see it that way at all, but hey, it's America & we are free to disagree.

I doubt she'd be thrilled with him popping by her place twice a day for something, let's face it, is not critical.

I'm with 25years. You can express to her that, under the circumstances, you'd prefer she leave the stroller at the daycare. Period.

Of course, you can't force her, but you CAN pull the shades and ignore her when she shows up. FOR NOW.

Eventually, when you're feeling stronger and more in control of your emotions, you can revisit the situation, go out and say "Hi", whatever.

If we're supposed to draw boundaries to protect our well-being (not to control our spouses) and her daily visits are painful to Mozza at this time, then I think it's fine that he continues to be warm and upbeat when they're actually together, but he doesn't need to be available to her whenever, and he doesn't need to have his life under a microscope so she doesn't get upset.

As long as he doesn't come across cold or distant or angry, it's fine to be "too busy" to acknowledge her when she shows up, and maintain a level of privacy.

This is not punishment for her, it's survival for him, if I'm reading him correctly.
And this tactic is temporary for him to gain some equilibrium here.


---(G)GGG

[25yearsmlc]

W JUST CONFIRMED OM BY EMAIL!

It's the colleague I suspected since the beginning. She wrote me that she meant to tell me in person but we canceled our lunches this week. She doesn't want me to hear it from the grapevine (too late!) and she wants me to know who hangs out with our daughters. She's also asking me to let her know if I meet significant someone that will hang out with the girls.

What do I respond?

I really want to say: "Don't worry, I've known for a long time."

Is she asking you to respond? What is there to say? I don't see the need to answer or put things in exclamation points, NOR do I see how telling her you "already knew" or 'too late" will help you. Seriously...

If you are COMPELLED to say something, maybe say you'll be sure to let her know about your OW if & when you feel it's gotten serious enough to introduce her to the kids, but you are NOT at that point and you really are just working on the changes YOU wanted to make, etc.

Then Wish her well, or thank her for letting you know and then DROP IT...say nothing of him directly, ever.

He is NOT the issue. He is a symptom of marital discord, not a cause of it, and don't you forget it. Putting the blame on him or the affair is at the expense of your personal growth and you cannot afford that.

If you focus on him (or her flaws) and your wounded ego begins to dictate your actions, you will lose this fight.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

Simply BE THE BETTER CHOICE (I know it's not easy but it's also not completed)

and believe you are the better choice (or becoming it)

so that you know in your heart and soul, in TIME she will see this - as good memories resurface and the new you impresses her more and more.

Become a man only a fool would leave.

Women don't return to marriages they left, UNLESS, they believe that

the marriage can be better/different than before.

It's your job to demonstrate that (with actions not words).

Okay? Take a breath and treat yourself to something special and FUN tonight.

And btw how do you feel about her admission of OM?

For ME, an admission would scare me more than hiding it. I guess it makes it more 'official," but some folks are troubled more by the hiding.

And you?

In sum, stay the course.

This changes nothing except a dimension of how you interact. STAY THE COURSE

[25yearsmlc]

PS


Given your main issue (being critical of her) I would not say a single nasty or critical or judgmental thing to her about this. Period.

Work on you and don't take your eye off the ball.

But it's okay to get a nice bottle of wHine and a grill a steak and...well, if it were me I'd say rent a movie and take a hot bath but since you are a man, I"m not so sure, so

watch an action flick or watch some football?? Bowl with your buddies?

In other words, be gentle to yourself for awhile but,

don't REACT to her. You are on your own journey now. Okay?

[Mozza]

Thanks a lot. I replied "Thanks for telling me." That's all. No criticism of any sort. Good advice, 25yearsmlc.

I'm hugely appreciative of the comments and feedback. I'm in a rush now, but I intend to reply to all of it. There's just too much stuff happening every day, as you can see (plus my work and GAL). I already read it several times. It makes a big difference in how I handle this challenge.

[Mozza]

Many many thanks again for the feedback and words of support. They make a huge difference in keeping me afloat and purposeful. A few responses and reactions.

Besides, why not assume the BEST of our spouse instead of the worst?

This is brilliant. It has already changed my perspective in the last 24 hours. I'm ashamed it took me this long and I'll work to make it last.

Say Nothing about OM.

Very relevant now that she's confirmed OM. I just thanked her for telling me and I intend to avoid the topic. I'm glad I didn't hear it in person because I would have blurted out the wrong thing, that's for sure.

ALSO adopt this as a new mantra for IF & WHEN she brings up the marriage. (...) "If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

I love it and I need to slip it into our conversations. I haven't so far. Tonight, I sent her an email about difficulties she's having at work. I wrote "Something I learnt recently is that you can't change the past, you can only improve the future." It's the closest I got from the mantra.

3) GOAL #3... have a conversation with w that includes at least one authentic compliment FROM YOU TO HER, without any expectation of reciprocity or gratitude. Your goal is delivering the message, not getting one back.

I've paid her several compliments by email today, related to difficulties at work. I told her she's strong, clever and a hard worker. It's a change for me as I was mostly keeping my distances so far.

I'm one of those who thinks the WAS NOT admitting an affair actually helps the situation b/c in my opinion it means they are not ready to go public with it. The more public they are with OPs, the more resolute they are and that does not bode as well for an eventual reconcialiton.

I'm afraid I agree with this. On the other hand, my W said she revealed the OM for three reasons. 1. The kids will see and tell. 2. Gossips travel across our workplaces. 3. I had asked her at S to let me know before introducing someone to the kids. I've a 4th theory: she wants to know if I have an OW. She's unsettled by my distance and on the phone I alluded to having guests at home. So I feel like it makes their R more official, but it also seems like she thought couldn't keep the secret much longer.

Anyone else wish we could learn MORE from great experiences and not have to endure horrifically painful ordeals, in order to grow?

You bet!

No one said to assuage it, but make no mistake, guilt will never get a spouse home to stay.

I found that very interesting. Whether it is true or not, I find it convincing not to guilt my W about the OM. Target achieved. Also, I keep thinking that I gave my W reasons to look around, regardless of her own responsibilities.

BTW, thanks for sharing your story about the near-A.

I'll come back to answer more. Thanks again.

[Mozza]

OK, the stroller parking by my window...

GoatGal is correct: I'm still too fragile to see her twice a day come by my house. I'm stressed out before coming out of bed, when I see the stroller outside it tells me she was recently here, then if I work from my home office I see the stroller all day and think of her and how she was here and will be again, and finally an hour before she's set to come back, I become stressed. I lose my sense of calm and safety at home for the entire time. Perhaps I'm too emotional, 7 weeks after she moved out.

25yearsmlc really made me think though. What if I got control of my nerves and saw that as an opportunity instead? I'm not dating, I'm no slob, I make small changes in the house, once I even let two empty wine glasses in plain view... We've had a couple of opportunities to interact before and it was helpful.

So, can I change my mind now that I insisted and she agreed to drop it off at the daycare, like everyone else? Seems too late, like I will lose her respect and reward her acting upset to get what she wants.

Were any of your w's concern about the marriage, related to issues like this?
What did you say SHE WOULD SAY- if she were here?

And would SHE see this as more of the same old you?

My first reaction was to think it had nothing to do with my old self. But after thinking longer, it might be perceived as part of me wanting things done just my way (I'm a perfectionist and she's not).

What would she say if she were here? "I'm really disappointed. He's not collaborating as I was hoping. He's making everything he can more difficult for me. I don't know why he's so mean. I thought using the backyard would be no big deal. I come in and out in a flash, I don't snoop. What's the issue for him? At the daycare, the stroller is under the rain and it can't be locked. Anyway, why is he so intent on not seeing me? This is inspired by what she said to me and her attitude about it.

[labug]

I think I get what Mozza is saying about W popping up twice a day with the stroller.

He's hurt, angry, and needs to have a sense of safety. Sometimes seeing her going about her day, maybe just coming from or going to OM, it's too much.

His sitch is really new. It may be he needs a little space to detach from her actions.
Not forever, but for a bit.

The last thing I'd want when the pain was still fresh would be to see my H outside my window twice a day, knowing that he didn't love me, didn't want me, and was off to see his OW.

Sorry, but I think Mozza is well within his rights to insist that the stroller stays where everybody else's strollers stay. For now.

And yes, his W may well be scoping things out as far as he's concerned. Not that he has anything to hide, but IMO, she is not only eating cake, but she wants to make sure that he's keeping the home fires burning.

I doubt she'd be thrilled with him popping by her place twice a day for something, let's face it, is not critical.

I'm with 25years. You can express to her that, under the circumstances, you'd prefer she leave the stroller at the daycare. Period.

Of course, you can't force her, but you CAN pull the shades and ignore her when she shows up. FOR NOW.

Eventually, when you're feeling stronger and more in control of your emotions, you can revisit the situation, go out and say "Hi", whatever.

If we're supposed to draw boundaries to protect our well-being (not to control our spouses) and her daily visits are painful to Mozza at this time, then I think it's fine that he continues to be warm and upbeat when they're actually together, but he doesn't need to be available to her whenever, and he doesn't need to have his life under a microscope so she doesn't get upset.

As long as he doesn't come across cold or distant or angry, it's fine to be "too busy" to acknowledge her when she shows up, and maintain a level of privacy.

This is not punishment for her, it's survival for him, if I'm reading him correctly.
And this tactic is temporary for him to gain some equilibrium here.


---(G)GGG

Part of this process is learning how to not be controlled by our emotions. That often requires that we look deeper than the emotion which is why I asked Mozza, what's under this reaction to a pretty minor thing. I will bet it's not just the stroller. Once we understand what we're really feeling we can begin to reason through that and take the emotion out of it. But whatever his reaction is is his to deal with and maybe that's something he needs to learn. Maybe he always reacted strongly to things that seemed small because that small thing may be a trigger for some bigger hurt he's carrying.

If she were parking her car in his driveway and blocking it that's one thing. Leaving his child's stroller in the back yard and not even attempting to talk with him, that's another.

Pull the shades and go about your business, Mozza. But her being there does give you the opportunity to stick your head out the door and say cheerfully "Hi, how was (child) today? Beautiful day, isn't it?"

ed. Mozza, this sounds like talking about you like you're not in the room but I was responding to the OP.
You can do difficult things Mozza. This is one of the most difficult things you will come up against, learning to control you.

[Mozza]

Sigh. I feel I'm doing so many things wrong. This board is really making me reflect on my W's perspective. I'm mostly trying to protect myself, but it comes across as aggressions on her end. I'm very fragile, sad and hurt by what she says or does but I hide it from her so she thinks I'm an @ss. Also, my attitude with her is not strong and self-assured, it's a sort of pleading. Like: "Come on, you know I don't do this to be mean to you..." I need to find a better attitude.

We met for 1 minute this morning to swap the kids' suitcase on a street corner. I had also packed a suitcase of books and DVDs. She was pissed that I was late (5-10 minutes) because it makes her late for work at such a difficult time. I explained that I was late because I had to carry so much stuff. She said she understood I wanted my place back but it created these problems and I replied it wasn't me who left that stuff behind.... (BUZZ!) She asked me to come earlier next time and I said no I can't because I'm already in a rush with the kids. She suggested getting to bed and up earlier. I said it wasn't possible. See: I come across as a jerk! But I really am at my wits ends from Thursday night until the moment I drop the suitcase. I should probably have agreed and make an extra effort to get up 10-15 minutes earlier.

So, she's pissed at me because:
- I don't want her to drop the stroller at my place.
- I want to return her remaining stuff (all of it).
- I'm hard to schedule for a lunch.
- I arrive too late at our meeting point.
- I respond briefly and late to her emails.
- My friends and family don't contact her.
- And more!

In none of these cases I try to upset her, but I end up doing it anyway. I must be doing something wrong.

[labug]

Which of those things do you control?

[SunnyB]

See: I come across as a jerk!

Mozza, sorry, but....yeah, you do. You made her late for work and then came up with excuses why that was ok.

I've never had any patience with people who blame their kids for being late. I have three kids, and even when they were all little, I got my butt up early enough to get them all ready and even make breakfast and sit down at the table with them. All with zero help or participation whatsoever from H. All me. And we got places on time. You can, too.

[Mozza]

Part of this process is learning how to not be controlled by our emotions. That often requires that we look deeper than the emotion which is why I asked Mozza, what's under this reaction to a pretty minor thing. I will bet it's not just the stroller. Once we understand what we're really feeling we can begin to reason through that and take the emotion out of it. But whatever his reaction is is his to deal with and maybe that's something he needs to learn. Maybe he always reacted strongly to things that seemed small because that small thing may be a trigger for some bigger hurt he's carrying.(...)

ed. Mozza, this sounds like talking about you like you're not in the room but I was responding to the OP.
You can do difficult things Mozza. This is one of the most difficult things you will come up against, learning to control you.

Thank you so much, labug. You and 25yearsmlc are really making me rethink something that was obvious to me. I realize that DBing is a lot about controlling our emotions to have the right behavior. I hold back a lot on overtly blaming and controlling my wife, but now I see that I still don't understand the frontier between a boundary and control.

So, is it too late to undo this? Will I come across as weak? How can I justify changing my mind?

Which of those things do you control?

Almost all of them.
- I don't want her to drop the stroller at my place. I could let her after all.
- I want to return her remaining stuff (all of it). I could keep it at my place until she requests it.
- I'm hard to schedule for a lunch. I could be more available.
- I arrive too late at our meeting point. I could arrive 10 minutes earlier.
- I respond briefly and late to her emails. I could respond faster and lengthier.
- My friends and family don't contact her. I could suggest it to them.

I guess one thing that I should learn right here is that what appears obvious to me isn't all that obvious to others. Now, that's an issue from our M. I wouldn't answer some questions because the answer was too obvious. I would assume she had bad intentions when doing something "wrong" because it was obvious to me what the right thing was. Having so many experienced people here see things so differently is really eye-opening. I appreciate the frankness.

[GoatGal]

"So, she's pissed at me because:

- I don't want her to drop the stroller at my place: For Pete's sake. Let her drop the stupid thing off and invest in some nice blinds. If you don't want to see her, then don't look. Be out of the house! And leaving wine glasses (I'd make it three or four, because if she thinks there is OW that might come back to bite you) is a great idea. Or a pile of party trash she'll see. (Gift wrap, case of beer... )

- I want to return her remaining stuff (all of it). Sounds reasonable to me. Why would she have a problem with this?

- I'm hard to schedule for a lunch. On her terms, on short notice, because she wants it? You have a life too. Be reasonable but don't apologize for not being at her beck and call.

- I arrive too late at our meeting point. Don't do that. It's inconsiderate. And you are a considerate guy, right? This is giving her ammo to use against you. You must be on your best behavior at all times around her. Leave earlier, pack smarter... I know it's an adjustment but you need to show her you've got it all together.

- I respond briefly and late to her emails. As you should right now. You're considering your responses. If you respond thoughtfully and in a timely fashion based on the urgency of her emails, and she's upset, it's her problem.


- My friends and family don't contact her. Again, that's because of her actions, not yours. Not your problem and you don't need to reassure her.

- And more!"
Gee...can't wait to hear the rest!

----------------------------------------------------------------

Just generally speaking, these transgressions of Mozza's are pretty small, considering.
She wants to be pissed at him, is the impression that I'm getting.

Mozza has to figure out which of these things are valid complaints, and which are her pushing his buttons. And, as labug said, which are under his control.

He wastes entirely too much time taking responsibility for her being upset over this thing and that.

His job is not to help her feel better about her situation, it's to work on himself, be a better man, and a great dad, staying true to his values.

Anything that falls outside of that description falls on her side of the street, which is not his to sweep.


---(G)GGG

PS: Mozza, I see we cross-posted. I will read your response above.
But clearly I see I am taking a harder line in that I feel he is bending over backwards to keep from upsetting her as she keeps him hopping over all these little things. I think what's needed is to sort the real issues from the distractions at this point.

[Mozza]

See: I come across as a jerk!

Mozza, sorry, but....yeah, you do. You made her late for work and then came up with excuses why that was ok.

I've never had any patience with people who blame their kids for being late. I have three kids, and even when they were all little, I got my butt up early enough to get them all ready and even make breakfast and sit down at the table with them. All with zero help or participation whatsoever from H. All me. And we got places on time. You can, too.

Point taken. Obviously, I could get up a bit earlier. So why don't I? Because I go to bed late. Why? Partly because I indulge. Last night, I was late on my chores because I kept our guests later than we should have and then I was on the phone, slowing me down with my chores. So this might be all about me protecting my comfort and laziness at her expense after all. It's not something I identified in our M before because I'm generally working harder than her, but I do have an issue with getting started on things. Regardless, at this point I should jump at the opportunity to make any effort to make her happy, or at least not pissed.

I'm thinking of writing an email saying: I've thought about a few things and I realize I've made your life harder without meaning to. And then tell her she can drop the stroller after all, leave stuff at my place, I'll arrive earlier, etc. What do you think?

[GoatGal]

Mozza,

I say to hold off on any more apologies, emails, or any other excuses/explanations for your behavior at this point until some others chime in here.

I'll have to read back, but as I recall you have apologized for the main things already. To me it sounds like you're now apologizing for every little thing she can come up with to complain about you.

No, you're not a perfect being. You're also under a tremendous strain and in a rough place emotionally.

You're not on time? That's not great, but it's not the end of the world.
Let's look at the big picture here. She is off cheating, you're trying to handle things on your own now, dealing with child exchanges, your wife being gone... and you're saying "sorry" over and over?

If you're late, I would just apologize--ONCE--and leave out the guilt.
(As in the guilt-inducing: "I had to take care of all these things myself because you're not here" sort of thing.)
Just "Sorry I was late. Next time I'll make sure to be on time." And then DO IT.

Own it. Don't excuse it. Change it if it needs to be changed.

Actions. Not words.

Words are not going to fix this and you keep wanting to use words, (explanations, apologies), when she is either not going to hear them, or will take them the wrong way. Stop talking and start doing.

Keep it short and sweet. Let your behavior show her your changes. And it's not going to get done in a week, or a month. Figure you're going to work at this for several weeks for it to sink in with you---and then with her.

Don't look for quick results ("She's not mad at me anymore!") because they will be false.

Personally, I'd ignore most of this stuff she keeps complaining about for a few days.
(getting her stuff, scheduling lunches), just let it drop.

Wait to see if she brings it up again. Then you can address it with an action plan.

"Regardless, at this point I should jump at the opportunity to make any effort to make her happy, or at least not pissed."


No. You shouldn't. Why are you trying so hard to make her happy when she is treating you with such disrespect?


People? Please? Help me out here!

---(G)GGG

[25yearsmlc]

Sigh. I feel I'm doing so many things wrong. This board is really making me reflect on my W's perspective. I'm mostly trying to protect myself, but it comes across as aggressions on her end. I'm very fragile, sad and hurt by what she says or does but I hide it from her so she thinks I'm an @ss.

Well, I do not suggest you show her all your pain either. It's yours to deal with. Not hers.


Also, my attitude with her is not strong and self-assured, it's a sort of pleading. Like: "Come on, you know I don't do this to be mean to you..." I need to find a better attitude.

Agreed.


We met for 1 minute this morning to swap the kids' suitcase on a street corner. I had also packed a suitcase of books and DVDs. She was pissed that I was late (5-10 minutes) because it makes her late for work at such a difficult time.

Can you validate any of that ^^^ for her? Is it something you do not believe, or value, or are you on the same page now and you "get" that she can't keep being late b/c of you?


I explained that I was late because I had to carry so much stuff. She said she understood I wanted my place back but it created these problems and I replied it wasn't me who left that stuff behind.... (BUZZ!)

you really couldn't resist, eh? Work on this...


She asked me to come earlier next time and I said no I can't because I'm already in a rush with the kids.

so you "cannot" get up ANY earlier? Or plan the night ahead? Did she used to do all the morning stuff and transportation for the kids? Is this new for you?


She suggested getting to bed and up earlier. I said it wasn't possible.

SIGH

See: I come across as a jerk! But I really am at my wits ends from Thursday night until the moment I drop the suitcase. I should probably have agreed and make an extra effort to get up 10-15 minutes earlier.

seems obvious now, doesn't it?

So, she's pissed at me because:

Wait...do you KNOW she is angry, and if so , how? Do you KNOW Why or are all these guesses on your end?


- I don't want her to drop the stroller at my place.

because SHE thinks there is the risk of theft, and or leaving it outside in the bad weather and or b/c you don't seem to have a 'good" enough reason to HER but you're just being stubborn (to HER)...

- I want to return her remaining stuff (all of it).
- I'm hard to schedule for a lunch.
- I arrive too late at our meeting point.
- I respond briefly and late to her emails.
- My friends and family don't contact her.
- And more!

In none of these cases I try to upset her, but I end up doing it anyway. I must be doing something wrong.

I'm not saying these ^^^ are all flags about what a jerk you are, but you do sound a tad stubborn to say "it's impossible" to change ANY of these habits. And your intentions are not all that relevant if you are upsetting her repeatedly. You KNOW why and you know how Not to, but you are feigning powerlessness..

You are in control of all or most of these^^, so why not assert that control and exercise some choice?

You know, alter your own behavior?

[Mozza]

You are in control of all or most of these^^, so why not assert that control and exercise some choice? You know, alter your own behavior?

It has taken me too long, but I got that today. I'm glad I came here to reflect on what's wrong about my attitude with my W. The fact that you guys saw me in the wrong made me realize many things. I will definitely get up earlier and be there at the time that she needs (btw, today was the first time she'd be late because of me).

So, she's pissed at me because:

Wait...do you KNOW she is angry, and if so , how? Do you KNOW Why or are all these guesses on your end?

I know because she's telling me. The only thing where I'm guessing is the return of her stuff - her body language and some comments ("it creates trouble") make me thing she's upset that I'm sending her back all of her stuff before she asks for it.

So which of those things should I change in your opinion?
- I don't want her to drop the stroller at my place. I could let her after all.
- I want to return her remaining stuff (all of it). I could keep it at my place until she requests it.
- I'm hard to schedule for a lunch. I could be more available.
- I arrive too late at our meeting point. I could arrive 10 minutes earlier.
- I respond briefly and late to her emails. I could respond faster and lengthier.
- My friends and family don't contact her. I could suggest it to them.

[Mozza]

By the way, godmother update.

No update! No mention of Anna-the-bad-friend whatsoever since this phone call two weeks ago. When she called me back then, it was all "this woman is free to do as she pleases, she's a role model" and "no more cute couple model for me". Now she's in a cute couple with OM. We'll see if she brings it up again.

[Mozza]

Live: W is emailing about problems at work again.

Time to shine, right?

Her boss is very difficult and not trusting my W's work anymore. It's not impossible that her boss is right because my W had similar issues at work before (she's a fast but sloppy worker). In any case, I'm not telling her any of that and I focus on providing support, validating. No solutions even, except to talk about myself, like: "Now I focus on what I control and let go of the rest." I keep in mind that my W is under tremendous pressure because of the separation, her move, even her new relationship, she's getting the girls tonight, dealing with me, etc.

Oh and she's saying she feels like dropping everything and going back to her home country. This is the nuclear weapon between us and I'm not touching that topic.

[jim0987]

Time to shine!!

You'll do fine, just remember to be slow in your thinking and don't take the bait.

[Mozza]

Thanks Jim. Wish we could like or +1 comments around here.

I might have taken a bit of a chance by including this sentence about a new colleague that her boss really likes over her: "Anyway, perhaps it explains why the new guy is so great: no baggage, no history so she sees only the good sides, thinking he can teach you so much. Well, just give it time, it seems to be a pattern. Hope you're not taking it personally."

[GoatGal]

Yes--- validate when she opens up to you, but don't "fix".

If you can honestly say something nice about her skills as an employee, that's fine, but don't go overboard telling her how great she is and how she can handle everything at work, yadda, yadda, yadda.

That would come off as fake. Plus it doesn't follow the 80% rule.

Which, by the way also goes for content.
She sends you a ten word text, you respond according to the urgency of the text, (or not, if it's spew/fishing/bitching/demanding) and with only EIGHT words.
Get it?

It's a great rule of thumb to mirror whatever warmth she gives you without coming off as needy or pursing.

And sometimes your job is just to listen and hear her. But not ad infinitum. You're not her security blanket. She fired you, remember?


--(G)GGG

[Mozza]

I think I've done good on the "don't fix" front but I give back more than 80%. I can never seem to understand whether I'm supposed to offer satisfying interactions or not. It seems the 80% will look I don't really engage.

[GoatGal]

Mozza, that's where you've got it all wrong.

80% is total DBing. It is letting HER set the pace.
It helps you avoid pushing her for things she doesn't want at the moment.
It prevents you looking needy and desperate.

80% is exactly the RIGHT amount to engage. You are responsive, but not overly so. You're not pushing or applying pressure.

Doing more than she does is going to backfire on you.
Please believe me on this.

You've got to stop thinking of this as a situation where a H and W are having marital discord; a situation where what you describe might help.

Your wife is with OM. She has expressed the desire to end your M.
The rules are different now and your behavior has to reflect that.

[Mozza]

Nice story that uplifted me yesterday.

A new friend told me that a dozen years ago, his GF fell in love with an OM in college. He discovered the EA and she left him a couple of weeks later to start a new R with the OM. On the spot, he went to buy a travel guide and then a plane ticket and within a week of being dumped, he was abroad to start a new life. He had given up on the R immediately. No pleading, no pursuing. He gave up his job, and went to GAL abroad, where he rented a small house and got a job. He was tortured by the breakup and wish they'd reconcile, but he was not reaching out nor having any hope.

Surprisingly, his ex-gf had access to his emails (!) and she found out one day that he was about to start something with a local girl. She called him, asked where he was in the country and went to see him. After two months apart, they were reunited. She had realized that life would be no better with an OM, that her R with my friend was worth it.

He's still with the girl and they have a kid. Today, his career is in the tourism business and closely linked to this defining episode of his life.

It's nice to hear a WAW story with a good ending.

[Mozza]

Your wife is with OM. She has expressed the desire to end your M.
The rules are different now and your behavior has to reflect that.

OK, I get it now! I've scaled back my replies.

Turns out that she spoke to the big boss who reassured her that her job was not in danger and gave her some tips to improve the situation. She's hugely relieved. She explained to me that her performance had been affected because her life was turned upside down and that it would be much better next month. He said he was well aware and laughed. She left me for another of his employees. Ha. Ha. Ha.

[Mozza]

These email exchanges with my W about her difficulties at work are emotionally hard for me. They make me feel used. She turns to me when she's in a tough spot. I give her support, validation and when the problem is solved (not by me) or she's had enough, she drops me back in the waste basket. In passing, she always tells me hurtful things like how people at the office is aware that she left me for her colleague and laugh about it.

Is it hurting because it works? I don't know what to make of them. When they start, I really want to engage, but when they're over, I feel used. The general DB approach tells me that my emotions don't matter, what matters is that it gets me closer to my goal. Does it?

[jim0987]

I honestly don't know. I suppose there is an element that says you shouldn't engage with this stuff at all as if she us just using you for moral support when she wants is that just a form of cake eating?

Wiser heads than mine will hopefully comment on this

[Maybell]

Do not permit her to hurt you, especially when you are trying to show kindness. That's not good for her respect for you (and therefore her attraction TO you) and its not good at all for your self-respect, your PMA. In the long run you can't DB for yourself or anyone else if you're constantly waiting for the turn of the knife.

I know it's hard to think of putting more distance between the two of you, but if she's treating you that way then you need to drag out the time it takes you to reply a little more. Validate her concerns less personally and shift the responsibility for her confidence back to her.

I think you also need to set a boundary. If she tells you people are mocking you, let her know you would prefer not to hear things like that. Politely tell her you don't want to put yourself in the way of that pain. If she continues, stop responding to any non-essential emails.

It hurts to hear she could be so intentionally cruel. I'm sorry you're taking that abuse.

[Maybell]

I wanted to add... "Cake-eating" isn't a useful way to think about things. Your W relying on you to shore her up and then taunting you sounds like cake. So does my H trying to get me to be friends with him while he's intentionally lying about contact with OW in order to cheat me of my boundary. Other spouses asking for hugs or whatever without simultaneously trying to take advantage of the LBS is probably a sincere gesture. We talk about cake like its this universal thing. I think it's more specific.

For what that's worth.

[labug]

These email exchanges with my W about her difficulties at work are emotionally hard for me. They make me feel used. She turns to me when she's in a tough spot. I give her support, validation and when the problem is solved (not by me) or she's had enough, she drops me back in the waste basket. In passing, she always tells me hurtful things like how people at the office is aware that she left me for her colleague and laugh about it.

Explain this more fully, if you can. She is laughing with them or they are laughing?

This whole situation is painful. It. just. is.

But you give the responsibility for a lot of your emotions to your W and they are all yours to deal with.

It sounds like for years you've been nagging your W about a lot of things. Usually the things we dislike in others are things we don't like in ourselves.

What say you to that?

[Mozza]

In passing, she always tells me hurtful things like how people at the office is aware that she left me for her colleague and laugh about it.

Explain this more fully, if you can. She is laughing with them or they are laughing?

I owe you an explanation because my wording makes it sound worse than it was reported to me. She told her boss that she had gone through a rough couple of months, he said he was aware, smiled then laughed. I made it sound: "Haha, that poor fool ex-H! Well done!" It's more likely a laugh of support for my W's plight. I don't know if she laughed with him. Anyway, it hurts to know that their colleagues know and take it so lightly. Such relationships are frown upon in many workplaces.

Sorry Maybell, I realize that I also mislead you. This being said, my W does have a history of dropping little things that hurt. I've never said anything to her about it, I just take it and pretend I don't hurt.

But you give the responsibility for a lot of your emotions to your W and they are all yours to deal with.

I don't understand. My wife's words do hurt me and she seems intent to tell me little things that will hurt. I try to deal with these emotions, I don't show her that it hurts, I don't ask her not to say things, I try to move on and not think too much about it, etc. Am I supposed not to hurt? Does she have no responsibility about how I feel? Does that apply to how I make her feel -- not my responsibility?

It sounds like for years you've been nagging your W about a lot of things. Usually the things we dislike in others are things we don't like in ourselves. What say you to that?

Yes, I heard that one. Right now, I can't say that it applies much, but I keep making discoveries every day as I explore my R. At the moment, I'd say that it's more that I would nag her about things where we are different: storytelling, organization, culture... My reflection is not done though. Thanks for the idea.

[Mozza]

Do not permit her to hurt you, especially when you are trying to show kindness. (...) Politely tell her you don't want to put yourself in the way of that pain. If she continues, stop responding to any non-essential emails.

Right now, I simply ignore all of it, pretend I didn't hear it or that I'm indifferent. She seems to be looking for my buttons to push, so I don't want to tell here: "There, it hurts" for fear that she will return there when needed. She has weapons, such as moving abroad, that are nuclear. Getting drunk on the town in an S&M costume is nothing in comparison.

Again, sorry that I made it sound worse than it was. It's really nice of you though to show such concern.

I wanted to add... "Cake-eating" isn't a useful way to think about things. Your W relying on you to shore her up and then taunting you sounds like cake. So does my H trying to get me to be friends with him while he's intentionally lying about contact with OW in order to cheat me of my boundary. Other spouses asking for hugs or whatever without simultaneously trying to take advantage of the LBS is probably a sincere gesture. We talk about cake like its this universal thing. I think it's more specific.

For what that's worth.

Thank a lot for this -- many of us seem to need a better understanding of cake-eating. I know I have overreacted and kept too much distance, for fear of allowing cake-eating, easing the transition. I haven't read that section of DR yet, but when I do, I'll share what I understood.

[labug]

I've never said anything to her about it, I just take it and pretend I don't hurt.]

You are responsible for your Self.

We all need boundaries. Good boundaries make good Rs.

Creating resentment by denying your needs and allowing others to crash your boundaries is not being a "good" guy. It's codependent, unhealthy and unfair to everyone involved.

If someone who is supposed to love you says hurtful things you can very clearly address that. That train may have left the station for you and W but you will be in other Rs.
"W, when you say xxxx I feel hurt. I continue this discussion if you continue to say those things." And walk away.

You can't suddenly expect your R dynamic to change on it's own. You have to be the catalyst.

You have to change.

[Mozza]

If someone who is supposed to love you says hurtful things you can very clearly address that. That train may have left the station for you and W but you will be in other Rs.
"W, when you say xxxx I feel hurt. I continue this discussion if you continue to say those things." And walk away.

You can't suddenly expect your R dynamic to change on it's own. You have to be the catalyst.

You have to change.

Thanks a lot. I meant to say that I never tell my wife I hurt since we separated. In the R, I would verbalize it. Or at least, I have clear recollection of moments when I told my wife "When you do X, I hurt and I'd prefer if you did Y." At that stage though, our love tank was empty and it turned into arguments. Also, I wouldn't choose the right moment or set up to discuss these things. My readings have also given me a new vocabulary. I'm intent on changing because I don't want to go through this one more time.

[Maybell]

You said: "I don't want to tell her, 'There, it hurts'' for fear that she will return there when needed.

You don't just tell her that hurts. You tell her while setting the boundary. "That hurts, and I will not let you hurt me that way. If this happens again, I will xxx." (Xxx=walk away, whatever is appropriate).

Once you say it once, you don't repeat it if she violates the boundary. You just execute the consequence to enforce the boundary.

You fear her leaving the country or the other nuclear threats she's made. You are letting yourself be thrown under the bus in the hopes that she will be controlled by your compliance.

You can't control her. Not by complying with unkind treatment, not by any action or inaction on your part.

She may execute the nuclear options. If those involve her trampling your access to your kids, then you have recourse. If you only fear losing her, then I'm sorry to point out, you already have. Maybe you'll get her back, maybe you wont, but for now, she's already gone.

Listen to Labug. She's my Yoda. it may not make sense till you get your mind around the fact that your W is already gone, but keep at it and eventually it will.

[labug]

My advice would be you don't tell her to do anything. That's controlling. You say what you will accept, follow through with the consequences and let her make her choices.

Someone who continually busts your boundaries is a different subject.

[Mozza]

Thanks Maybell and ladybug. I'll keep on thinking about boundaries. Right now, my W's comments come and go and I don't want to give them more importance by pointing at them. Much like the strange godmother request, she seems to forget she even mentioned it. Often, I think she doesn't realize she's hurting me because she simply doesn't think about my feelings at the moment (nor in the months before she left -- it was an issue).

I've a couple of few pending questions on this thread that still haunt me. Suggestions welcome.

1. Do I reverse course on the parking stroller and allow her to come twice a day at my home to park it? If so, how?
2. Should I take advantage of her emails about difficulties at work to engage or is that cake-eating?

[Maybell]

Those pending questions are for you. You have to do a gut check with the information you've been hearing to evaluate that stuff for yourself. It used to drive me nuts when Labug said that to me but now I understand why.

Given my earlier clarification about cake, how do you think it applies to your questions?

[JohnJC]

Thank you for sharing your story, Mozza. I don;t know that I have any advice to offer, but I can say that my wife's Halloween costume this years was a surprise to me as well.

I hope your path leads you to a good place.

[25yearsmlc]

These email exchanges with my W about her difficulties at work are emotionally hard for me. They make me feel used. She turns to me when she's in a tough spot. I give her support, validation and when the problem is solved (not by me) or she's had enough, she drops me back in the waste basket.

She will remember who listened & validated, a lot more when it's gone...& memories of good times will resurface in TIME...


In passing, she always tells me hurtful things like how people at the office is aware that she left me for her colleague and laugh about it.


If I were a betting woman, I'd bet a million bucks that is NOT what happened. No one "laughs" about a new r starting, let alone a marriage ending. NO ONE.

MAYBE she told a funny story that included those facts, and they laughed about the humorous part, but please trust me on this, no one is laughing at your pain.

Is it hurting because it works? I don't know what to make of them. When they start, I really want to engage, but when they're over, I feel used. The general DB approach tells me that my emotions don't matter, what matters is that it gets me closer to my goal. Does it?

Yes your emotions matter. Maybe not to her at this time. But of course they matter.

Protect your heart as best you can. Love always poses risks, but to eliminate that risk means eliminating love from our lives...

Not worth it in my book.

[Mozza]

Thank you 25yearsmlc. Your message is very soothing. As I explained later, I had probably misrepresented what happened and I don't think they were laughing at the end of my marriage.

Thanks Maybell. It feels like my gut checks are always at cross-purposes with DB so I can't trust them.

Given my earlier clarification about cake, how do you think it applies to your questions?

I still can't say if it's cake-eating. I'll have to read the section of DR about this. My W isn't really taunting me (I explained I had overstated the laughing episode), and when she does, I think it's without even realizing because she's too caught in her own feelings (love for the OM, stress from work). I bet she's confused herself about why she's reaching out to me.

[Mozza]

Why do I keep hoping for a reconciliation now that the OM is confirmed?

It might be a question some have, so I thought I'd share my thinking.

HOPE

• He's young (approx late 20s) and handsome. He's got a lot of opportunities with women. Will he settle for good with a (beautiful) 34-years-old mother-of-two who doesn't want other children?
• Player? He had a reputation at the office already for approaching all new staff (women) with tons of questions (it weirded out my W at first). Will he stop this modus operandi? He left his GF to be with my W.
• I doubt she will agree to have more kids. We were clear we wouldn't, especially my W. She gets overwhelmed by our two Ds already. She also thinks she's getting too old to be pregnant (health concerns).
• My W can be complicated: she is mildly depressive and has insomnia and anxiety attacks. She's been unfaithful before. Many of my friends told me before they couldn't handle her. Good luck OM.
• R are not easy. Now add an ex-H and two kids that are not your own.
• They're both immigrants with no family and a small network around here. It can get tough or boring.
• Their R depends a lot on their jobs. Their workplace is their life: friends, social activities, etc. If one of them leaves or gets fired (and my W seems to be in some trouble), it will get awkward because one will have to leave the group.
• He seems slightly narcissistic, from what I could see on his Facebook profile. Half his posts are about him, pictures of him doing sports, doing stuff for charity, posting a glamor shot, etc. Can't tell if he has much culture, wide range of interests, etc.
• From the little that I know about him, they don't seem to have that much in common.
• It looks a lot like an MLC. My W has very high expectations of love (it has to be passionate forever, she wrote me so very clearly). Regardless of who's the OM, she's about to learn a thing or two about human condition (love is work).
• I've seen them interact some time ago and I've seen in him the seeds of behaviors that she dislikes. And they were in front of me, knew each other for 6 weeks.
• I'm DBing best I can! Also, she and I had a very strong bond, a passionate relationship. There are many good memories that might resurface.

DESPAIR

• Obviously, they are attracted to each other. I've fell in love with my W, others can too.
• She made it official to me. She must be getting comfortable with him, thinking it's somewhat serious. Until then, I thought it might just be physical.
• He seems to be a good listener and a sweet-talker. He LL is words of affirmation. He might provide the deep discussions that she needs just now (work trouble and separation).
• He's been of great help to my W and very kind to the kids. They like him already.
• My W is known as immature for her age. She might do better with a man younger than her (approx 5 years).
• It could last a few years, even if it's doomed. It could also last forever.
• If they break up, she's not automatically coming back to me.
• She could learn her lesson about everlasting love, yet stay with him.
• He can't be that bad in bed because when she was unfaithful, I got the sense that her disappointment played a part in her dropping the OM quickly!
• They're from the same culture and my W seems to be getting a kick out of it, even picking up idioms and words from him.

In both lists, add that there are many things I don't know about their R. My general take is that he's more likely to dump her than the other way round (not good b/c the lesson she needs to learn is that we all fall out of passionate love at some point). This is all speculation (all of it can go either way) and probably not welcome by vets here, but I thought I'd share for the record and for those struggling with a similar situation.

[Wonka]

Mozza...

Oh man...that was one heckva epic mind-reading bender on your part. A great deal of stinkin' thinkin' right. What a waste of energy!!

We probably could draw about 99.3% strikeout lines in your bullet summaries.

C'mon buddy...don't go there.

What are you doing for GAL activities?

[25yearsmlc]

Mozza...

Oh man...that was one heckva epic mind-reading bender on your part. A great deal of stinkin' thinkin' right. What a waste of energy!!

We probably could draw about 99.3% strikeout lines in your bullet summaries.

C'mon buddy...don't go there.

What are you doing for GAL activities?

OMG....Um, yeah Mozz....good grief, ^^^^^ what Wonka said, X 944803....

So you asked, "why hope for a reconciliation when there's an OM?"

well, WHY NOT?

I venture to say that most of the WAh's here (not all, but more than half)
are seeing OW. and yet many return to their wives, and reconcile for good.
Oh and incidentally, Very few affair partners marry each other, and even fewer stay married.

(Last time I read the statistic, it said that OF marriages that involve partners who strayed from a previous marriage in order to marry each other, more than 3/4 divorce. That's higher than the already higher divorce rate for 2nd marriages...but leaving that aside...

What difference does OM make to Your personal work goals AND OR to the chances of a recon?? If this is about your ego, recognize that and address it.

I have seen couples reconcile after affairs and stay married. Happily, as far as I know. Books about how to do that ("After the Affair") are all over the place and couples here with that same issue, are abundant.

I mean, if you can't get past this A, (as in, you cannot or will not forgive her), like if you think you'll throw it in her face when angry, or hold it over her head, do both of you a favor and get out now.

I wouldn't judge you harshly if you said "No can do" b/c not everyone can forgive their spouse for an A. (But for the record, imo, No long term marriage can be happy without at least a chunk of forgiveness. And you have work to do in what forgiveness means in general, anyhow).

But if it's your line in the sand, so be it.

However, I think the worst choice of all is to stay married AND stay miserable.

Don't do that to yourself or your w or your precious daughters. They deserve to see how a man is supposed to treat his wife AND for sure they need to know how a woman is supposed to treat her h...and for now, they are learning it from you and your w...
never forget that.

SO believe me, your d's will learn lessons from your marriage, and your goal is to make those lessons the good kind.


Anoher OR do you think this "fling"ing, is a pattern for your wife?

Did you say she strayed on YOU before? Hmm now I can't recall, nor am I recalling if you have also strayed...(it's getting late!)

but ASSUMING she has stepped out on you before, and that you have not done the same, then the issue of her being a serial cheater has to be addressed before any recon talk can happen and that's a ways away, obviously.

Let's say she HAS had other affair(s), then you must figure out why the first "recon" did not work or last (why the first A happened, and then happened again)

AND figure out if this is something you want to face again or could get thru intact. Only you can answer that, but the "good news" is that you have a ways to go before crossing that bridge.

So stay the course and keep working on you.

IF OM is not a mandatory deal breaker, your approach or strategies MIGHT alter, but the goal of recon remains the same....

Unless that's no longer your goal...

[Mozza]

Haha, I thought I'd get a beating for this one... To me, it's like assessing your health prospects: you can look at statistics but you can look at your own situation, such as family history, habits, etc. Also, it's simply impossible not to think whether my W has found a mate for life or something much shorter. I put these thoughts in writing.

GAL activities. I've no problem GALing, in fact I'm on a roll of some 15-17 days with GAL activities everyday and it continues for the next few days, so much that I can't get things done at home, like some cleaning. I have guests this week-end, I have a dinner tonight, tomorrow I've a public event, I play badminton and started working out, I registered for cooking classes, I host friends and family, I visit them, go out of town, take the kids to the amusement park, learnt new recipes, etc. My problem is more my mental attitude: I keep thinking about my stitch through all of it. I'm never 100% there.

Affair My wife had a short affair a few years ago and I forgave her. I've always been faithful. Since she left me before she got with this OM (as far as I know), do we consider this an A? Yes, she has a pattern of dreaming for a simple life of eternal intense love every 5 years or so. I'm hoping that really living through it this time will resolve that issue. So I expect to get passed it, but of course we'll have to understand the causes together and make sure it's resolved. Much work ahead. In the meantime, I'll be thinking of how her admission of the OM should alter my strategy.

Thanks all for the support and advice.

[1foot2]

I had a feeling you'd get smacked for that list mozza but I empathize with you. You have an analytical mind, as I do. I've made that very same list in my head, and I think our Ws are very similar.

I'm at the point where I'm feeling fine on my end of things, though I still have a lot of work to do, but I really don't know for sure if I can rely on my W anymore. This episode has revealed a lot about her ( her ideas of love, the responsibility of family, her serial cheating) and I just don't know if it's worth the continued risk to my wellbeing and that of the kids. I'm sadly confident that she will hit a wall and the A will likely end, but I don't know about reconciling. It's important that you have a healthy understanding of who your W is.

[Sotto]

" My problem is more my mental attitude: I keep thinking about my stitch through all of it. I'm never 100% there."

I'm with you there....I keep pushing on, and doing new things, but it all stays in my mind a lot. If anyone has anything helpful on this, I'll be interested too...

:-)

[jim0987]

I'd love to. Over analysing and constant thinking about it are the anchors that stop me detaching.

Mozza, I can really see why that listing would feel helpful to you (been there, still doing that) but you can't know so much of that.

What you have to work out is where your boundaries are and what you will accept or not. Now and in the future.

[25yearsmlc]

As a L, I consider myself pretty darn analytical.

And to an extent, in control of HOW I think. I use the phrase "stinking thinking" and used to engage in it, a lot. Here is what the workshop I attended, taught me.

I spent an hour or two, per day (on average! Some days were better; some worse), worrying.

What did I worry about? The future, the state of all my r's, my career and my health, and my kids's health and their futures, and my h's health,
and our m, and the world in general, and anything else I could think of.

About 95% of what I pondered, was not likely, or never happened.

I figured I had about a 1 out of 7 ratio in the things I worried about, actually being things I could affect or control.

So there were 1 in 7 "worries" at least worth considering, THEN choosing a course of action and then dropping the issue. Of course, in my case, I'd have to review that choice another 42 times, but at least I usually made good choice.

Still, That means 6/7 of my worry time was totally wasted. Bad enough. But it's way worse than that in 2 big ways.

1) At some deep neurotic level I believed that if I worried "enough" about something, I'd somehow make it less likely to happen, but that's a$$ backwards. If anything, our worries getting loose makes those things MORE Likely to happen, not less.
(Like the pushy controlling guy who is insecure his gf will cheat on him, ends up pushing her into the arms of OM, partly or mostly because of his fears!)

AND

2) I spent hours per day on negativity in my life, completely self inflicted and none of which was good for me OR any of my r's. Injecting paranoia and insecurity only makes us more cynical and critical and LESS LOVING to others and ourselves.

And over my life time so far, it amounts to YEARS OF MY LIFE AWAKE AND IN PAIN OF MY OWN MAKING...

while I used to brag about how analytical my mind was, I came to see that neuroses can seep into the most brilliant of the analysts among us. It's up to US to control how we view the world.

Change your lens if it's a negative one. Otherwise, you are corroding your own happiness and view of life. Don't kid yourself, our attitude affects how we treat others. And its what we model for our kids.

So it matters.

[25yearsmlc]

Mozza

Why did you think your "analysis" was helpful to others in similar situations?

To put it bluntly, I can't see anything positive coming from it, for anyone.

[25yearsmlc]

Put your mind INTO the GAL or it's more like "time fillers" than true GAL.

Or volunteer to help others with big problems that take your mind off your own, or do some theater, or anything that puts you in front of a live audience.

Those ^^types of GAL things will get your mind OFF your situation more than anything else I can think of .

I noticed that the first time when I was rehearsing for a play I was in, and it's true.

If you KNOW hundreds of people are going to watch you perform, chances are good that you will focus on your task and NOT your wife.

And helping others with serious problems (like the women's shelter I worked in), helps others for real AND takes your mind off your problems, at least while the client is crying in front of you.

IMO, if your GAL allows for you to still obsess, it's not really GAL in my book.

[Mozza]

I figured I had about a 1 out of 7 ratio in the things I worried about, actually being things I could affect or control.

Good point.

IMO, if your GAL allows for you to still obsess, it's not really GAL in my book.

I think I'm seeing too much people as part of my GAL. We end up talking about my sitch. I spread too much information about it, sometimes badmouthing my W, and it's not going to help reconcile. I'm getting better at talking about other stuff. Also, I simply need to spend more time alone at home: I haven't had the time to clean it because I'm rarely there.

Why did you think your "analysis" was helpful to others in similar situations? To put it bluntly, I can't see anything positive coming from it, for anyone.

I guess show them that they are not alone? Also, if we use statistics to anticipate whether the A can last, it seems normal to use info specific to our cases to infer further. This being said, I'd rather not dwell on this any longer.

[Mozza]

I was kind of set up on a blind date last night. Met a friend last week who invited me for dinner Sunday and she invited a single woman my age.

She was attractive, but there was no chemistry between us. I decided to play along anyway, to explore the situation. I tried to show interest, make her laugh, be interesting, ask questions. She was pleasant and talkative, but didn't show interest in me, asking me one question at the very end, as we shared a ride to our homes. Under the guise of telling her about my work, I gave her my business card as we parted. I don't expect any follow-up. I considered it as practice.

It is very strange to realize that I'm technically "available", if not emotionally. It's the first time in over 10 years.

Seeing another woman as a potential partner highlighted my W's characteristics. It made me realize more who she is, how she's different from others. It might be one of the things I need to realize before we can go back together, something helping me not taking her for granted ever again.

Conclusion: I'm really not ready to meet someone else even though my W is openly with an OM. It shows me how much she must have detached from our couple before she left. I wonder if she misses me too, if she thinks of me as she discovers this OM.

Gain: I can now say that I've been on a date. Might come in handy.

[Mozza]

Alert! Lunch confirmed with my W! It will be our first meeting since late September. Other than that, we've had phone calls and 3-minute encounters. It's also the first since she admitted to OM (don't mention him!).

My plan:
- Dress up in new clothes, wear cologne (I now do every day).
- PMA. I'll draw from last night's date.*
- Ask her questions about work. She's very focused on it.
- Mention that I had an epiphany and that I'm changing (not sure how to do that).
- Talk about my GAL if asked. Focus on what's new.
- Remain vague about my exact activities.
- No pursuing, etc. but that's easy for me. I stopped when she left home in September.

I'm quite nervous. Hoping to get it together before the lunch.

*Last night's date was an indication of how to act with my W. I observed myself and realized that I was agreeing or validating the woman all the time. There's no point in disagreeing openly, being confrontational, with someone you just met and are trying to seduce.

[Maybell]

Leave out the epiphany and pointing out the GAL. Both of those are forms of pursuit.

Good luck!

[labug]

"Gain: I can now say that I've been on a date. Might come in handy.'

How so?

[Mozza]

"Gain: I can now say that I've been on a date. Might come in handy.'

How so?

I know it's controversial around here, but I'd rather not have my W think that I'm just waiting for her to come back, that no one else is interested in me, that I'm interested in no one else and that she has all the time in the world.

By the way, when my W emailed me about her OM, she asked me to do the same for her if I meet someone that I'll introduce to the kids. A bit ironic given that her OM has been around the kids for a month and a half already. Anyway, it sounds like she's interested to know if I'm seeing other people.

[Mozza]

One thing I haven't explained around here is that I think one of the reasons my W left me is by fear of rejection. She left me before I could leave her. In my discussions with my shrink, we talked about how this fear is present in almost all of us, that we constantly test others to confirm that they are there for us. We even get satisfaction of be proven right when they let us down.

Since the separation, my W's constant taunting, including saying that my family and friends never took to her anyway, sound like this to me. I try to apply the give-80%-back technique and she generally withdraws more, for fear of being the one giving more than she receives. Part of me hear distress signals: Tell me that I'm wrong, tell me that this is all a big mistake, save me from myself. She openly tells me that she's drinking too much, not taking her meds, hints that she's dropping therapy, repeatedly says that crying is useless, emails me about her work problems, etc.

My W must think that I had abandoned her emotionally before she left me physically. She said "I didn't know you loved me this much" when she left and she also said she had second thoughts when she saw me begging and pleading (but then was steadfast the following morning). A few years ago, she stayed when I begged and pleaded. I had proven to hear that I really loved her (and then failed to sustain the behavior, I realize).

In the meantime, I let her actions speak and she has moved out and she got an OM. Still, even on the boards we talk a lot about the things we were unable to explain to our spouses, the flaws in our behavior that lead us here. It's very possible that my wife can't say clearly: "Tell me that you really love me, that you won't abandon me." Again, my shrink talks about separation a a "communication" in a couple. For now, I've no intention of telling her this at lunch today, just after she announced the OM!

Still, it's somewhere in my thinking that, if we get closer at some point, I'll have to let her know that I let her down emotionally and that I've learnt from it. It also explains why I'm responsive when she turns to me to talk about her problems. Also, I hope that all the efforts I'm making now, even considering this time with the OM as part of our relationship, will be proof for her that I'm not kidding about this.

[labug]

"Gain: I can now say that I've been on a date. Might come in handy.'

How so?

I know it's controversial around here, but I'd rather not have my W think that I'm just waiting for her to come back, that no one else is interested in me, that I'm interested in no one else and that she has all the time in the world.

By the way, when my W emailed me about her OM, she asked me to do the same for her if I meet someone that I'll introduce to the kids. A bit ironic given that her OM has been around the kids for a month and a half already. Anyway, it sounds like she's interested to know if I'm seeing other people.

I think it's passive/aggressive, tit-for-tat game playing.

If you're going on a date because you truly want to and have a caring interest in getting to know the person, that's a different story.

But at least let the date know you're still in a R with your W that you hope ends in reconciliation.

Honesty.

[Little]

Mozza, I see a LOT of mind-reading in that post. You know your W better than anyone but there's no way to know she's thinking that stuff or doing this for those reasons.

Until she's ready to come back to your R and communicate, you're better off just letting her make her choices while you move forward with your life without her.

[Mozza]

I reread this post this post by 25yearsmlc about what to say at the lunch. Here's my plan.

- Assume the best about my W.
- Greet her warmly.
- Be flexible on all but the most important things.
- Ask for time to think if I'm not sure about something.
- If she mentions OM, move on quickly to other topic. Avoid talking about my dating, be very vague if she asks.
- If she mentions M: "I'm so sorry I hurt you, W. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
- Listen, gather intel about her.
- One authentic compliment from me to her (perhaps her new clothes, I do love them).
- Credit her for her parenting, if it comes up.
- Not criticizing her, or making her feel guilty.

I'll TRY to think: she's not my W, she's a new girl I'm interested in. Be interesting, value her, validate her.

I need an alpha-male (not dog) attitude. Self-confidence. Clarity (when there's none!). I've done that plenty before and that's partly how she was attracted to me. I can pull this off for one lunch. It's been almost two months. I'm ready for this.

[Mozza]

All of you must be at the edge of your seats, 45 minutes before my lunch with my W. Time for a new thread.

Mozza (4)

[25yearsmlc]

Alert! Lunch confirmed with my W! It will be our first meeting since late September. Other than that, we've had phone calls and 3-minute encounters. It's also the first since she admitted to OM (don't mention him!).

My plan:
- Dress up in new clothes, wear cologne (I now do every day).
- PMA. I'll draw from last night's date.*
- Ask her questions about work. She's very focused on it.
- Mention that I had an epiphany and that I'm changing (not sure how to do that).
- Talk about my GAL if asked. Focus on what's new.
- Remain vague about my exact activities.
- No pursuing, etc. but that's easy for me. I stopped when she left home in September.

I'm quite nervous. Hoping to get it together before the lunch.

*Last night's date was an indication of how to act with my W. I observed myself and realized that I was agreeing or validating the woman all the time. There's no point in disagreeing openly, being confrontational, with someone you just met and are trying to seduce.

Actually, there is no point in being confrontational, period.