14th Thread to Somewhere Uncertainly

[uRworthy]

Love that song.

T, I have seen seveal MLCs. A few up close. Where you are at is probably one of the, in not the, toughest parts for the WAS and the stander.

The stander is worn down from the hurt, limbo, detaching, etc.

The WAS is trying to reconcile what sent them to the tunnel, what happened while in there and how to make the final push out.

It is important to allow them the time and space to do that, while also letting them know that you are around, and it is safe.

I know you can do all this, T. But your patience will be tried at times as she works through it all. I have talked about them needed to take a few steps back in order to make the leap over the puddle.

So, one supersonic, deluxe shovel for you. Free of charge.

[TSquared2]

thanks UR Does it come pre-charged?

As predicted, things are pretty much inching along quietly. No complaints ...

She seems more concerned about my feelings and how she is coming across...she notices her moods and lets me know before anything gets uncomfortable. More smiling in general. When she looks at me there is some positive change in her eyes. But she is still working her issues and figuring things out. I know this. And since what I have been doing appears to be working, I continue the "aloof but available", but with some occasional minor pursuit, initiation when its "business", and sometimes, occasionally, just for fun...and testing...

I have been thinking about the "apology/remorse/amends" debate some.

W did apologize last May/June...a calm, rational apology. I trust that, with her, more than some big display of remorse, etc...if she did that, I wouldn't trust it, thinking it may be just one of her histrionic tricks/outbursts.

So, I have gotten my apology.

But each sitch is different, based on the people involved. I fully believe that each will "know", whether apology, remorse, or not. Then you have to weigh how important it is to you to get apologies, remorse, amends, or not.

I feel that I don't need those now. I wanted them before, but not now. I know she feels bad about the past 4 years. If we get moving again forward, if I see the "look" in her eyes that we are "we" again...and verbal re-commitment to work on a new R, that's enough to start. I trust my gut. I look at W, I see she is/has been punishing herself, nobody I have ever known through out our M beats themselves up like she does.

I just don't want to give away any energy to negative things, expectations of some "social norm" of WAS needing to be begging for forgiveness, making amends, etc. I believe that this MLC couldn't be helped, like a sudden amnesia or disease or something. She had to go there to resolve and come to terms with herself. So did I on my journey.

I trust I'll know if it's real or not. If there is unspoken remorse or whatever.

But like MWD and SBT suggest, I am more concerned with creating new, pleasant memories; new, better comm skills and interactions and such to push out old, negative ones, from our brains. Future/forward looking.

My IC (who has worked with W as well some in the past) is of the opinion that once W finally breaks free from the tunnel, takes that big step forward... we'll be having too much fun and positive things going on that it won't be long before the past 4-5 years is a "takes effort to recall" time. Just a "weird time" in our M...we'll see...I will do my part, know that....

Another interesting thing she (IC) told me is that W has taught me how to not "need" her via her journey...

Love? Yes.
Want? Yes.
Need? No, no longer.

Paraphrasing a Meatloaf song..."Two outta 3 ain't bad..."

[reachingHigher]

Hi T^2,

I'm not reading as much lately here, so don't know if the apology/remorse debate was recent or just implied.

I remember last fall you pressed me to make sure I identified and apologized for my part in making this MLC happen and I think H took it very positively.

It sounds like you are in such a good place. It may be that W may break free and reconnect faster. Who knows?

I think you have done/are doing the needed work on yourself. I wish I had done more for myself when H was out of the house. I tried to do some things, and I think I did, but I was always thinking about H :-/

You say about recalling the past 5 years ... it's true. We watched some pics and videos from 2009 a couple of nights ago. H and I kept looking at each others faces. It's the year he slid into chat rooms and ended up texting with one girl for months till he texted me by accident.

It seems like a hazy memory.

Last night before bed the issue of texting came up again. (I didn't bring it up, one of the boys did since we have a high volume of monthly texts.)

I just looked kindly at H and said do you have more things you are hiding or is everything pretty much out in the open? I'm okay with whatever you have and where you are. Just wondering.

He said he texts girls regularly but not "those kinds of texts" and nothing like he and I text. He sees it as perfectly normal.

I told him a lot of water has gone under the bridge in th last 5 years and I have learned to be suspicious and distrustful when things don't look "quite right". I told him I'm doing the best I can to learn to trust again and that each incident that he proves he is trustworthy adds to my increased confidence in him.

He sounded sad but said he understood.

I realized its best to take the focus off the "what ifs". Like what if his pretty female co-worker is going through an MLC and texts him a lot. And so on.

T^2, this whole experience just shows we have to be the best we can be and that is good enough. For us. And for them, if they want it.

We shouldn't have to worry about all the other temptations "out there" of which there ar so many!

I hope W works through her issues soon. I can't wait for you to experience some of the bliss that awaits.


rH

P.S. oh and about the apology/remorse. I don't see any of that in H nor am I expecting one. It's a journey he had to take. Why should he be sorry for that? I'm a better person, too, and am happier for who I am now. That's enough of a sweet ending for me!

[TSquared2]

Thank you rH!

The remorse/amends discussion has been floating about, I remember reading threads from years ago. And it's something that I think we all consider during this....what does remorse "look" like? What do amends "look" like? Some say many MLC'ers never give them, and does that invalidate our LBS experience? The pain? The damage? Some think yes, some not. Some tie it to being able to forgive, some, not.

So I was just pondering that within myself, determining what it looks like to ME. What are my "expectations", and, if they are not met, then what?

As UR might say, I got ahead of myself...true, but it is in my nature, and controllable now that I understand that nature. Just like to be prepared for any possible situation, if possible.

It was funny when IC said that about when/if she finally takes the big step, and how it would all seem so...distant, I thought of you and H and your reconnection and piecing...

So tonight W and I went to S3 school's open house, together!! That is one of the small changes with her the past couple months, she isn't trying to control/exclude me from that involvement with the kids. And, she complimented me, that the color of my shirt looked really good on me...haven't heard anything like that in ages! The vibe between us was so different, more relaxed and positive, than the last time we did a school function together this spring.

Small things...but good.

[Notlikingthis]

T, I like what I'm reading here with regard to your w's behavior! Rh makes some very important points. Each of our mlcers is different just as each of their journey's are different. The memories of what they've done and even how the LBS felt during their "absence" may be vivid to some while foggy to others. (My uneducated opinion is that the longer that they are in the tunnel the less they remember. Too much CO2 and not enough O.) How would you apologize or be remorseful for something that you don't specifically remember?

I haven't gotten that far in my thinking yet so I don't know what I want or need in that respect. I do recall something that my h said early on, albeit in mlc babble. He said, that if this doesn't work out with ow that he's NEVER going to allow this to happen again. I heard, "I can't control the need to be with her and I don't want to even if it's wrong." This was before Dbing and I responded with, "You are making a choice. You can walk away from this before it goes any further but you are choosing not to." He looked at me with the deer in the headlights look like I was speaking a foreign language. At the beginning of his journey he apologized for putting me through so much stress over his behavior and wondered why I put up with him. Whether he'll remember those comments, I don't know.

I think your w may have been in a similar place mentally. knowing and aware that what she is/was doing was wrong but knew that she needed to do as she was doing because she HAD to. And maybe they do, in order to move to the next stage.

Keep expectations low and PMA high! You're doing great with this T!!!!

[AJM]

Interesting thoughts.

I think your w may have been in a similar place mentally. knowing and aware that what she is/was doing was wrong but knew that she needed to do as she was doing because she HAD to. And maybe they do, in order to move to the next stage.

As I recall, there is a strong sense of "I know what I'm doing is wrong - but I can't stop!" There was a strong sense that a "decision" had to be made. A strong sense that she wanted "somebody" to make that decision - either me or the OM. I also recall very strongly refusing to make that decision for her but being ready to accept whatever decision it was she came to.

I don't think they easily remember the time in the tunnel. Would you? But I also think it's a large part of the process of getting out of it. That's the part the LBS plays later, if still around and/or willing to help. It's either that or another crisis that helps them to remember and reconnect with that time once the "thrill" that has been keeping the other dogs at bay, subsides. Without one or both of those things, I have a difficult time thinking they will remember those things they said or did or that time in their life, outside of "feeling" it was a tough time.

I have met many people who have gone through similar (seems more common than talked about) and some can remember and some can't. Later, many do remember what they did, and still can't figure out how to complete that cycle. That's the saddest group, to me. When they feel bad about it (if) they cling to the blame to make themselves better or less "bad" for their choices.

The thing is, it's not as easy as just making a choice for them. Those on the outside can see it is a matter of choices piling up. It seems easy to armchair quarterback and say, "if you had done this instead of that.." But isn't that life for all of us?

It seems compassion is warranted, and T2, my hat's off to you for how you have handled things all these years. How you have grown and become stronger and not followed the conventional thoughts of our society and kicked her loose. It's not an easy adventure.

Glad to hear things are changing!

Peace,
AJ

[reachingHigher]

So tonight W and I went to S3 school's open house, together!! That is one of the small changes with her the past couple months, she isn't trying to control/exclude me from that involvement with the kids. And, she complimented me, that the color of my shirt looked really good on me...haven't heard anything like that in ages! The vibe between us was so different, more relaxed and positive, than the last time we did a school function together this spring.

Small things...but good.

I don't think this is so small. I think she isn't as "afraid" of you...for whatever reason. For her to compliment you, be with you in public in a family-type situation is very, very positive.

Maybe she thought about that 10% BF and the muscles you're sporting lately! Maybe....

Another thought, after reading NLT's post. I think my H thought this whole MLC thing was my fault for a very long time, so why should he apologize for getting away from something that he felt was holding him back? Then...when he wanted to come back...it was a disconnect from those feelings.

Kinda like...I have often wondered how "they" can come back home after they said all those mean and hurtful things. There is a big drop in consciousness during replay and some will remember and some won't, I guess.

Or in my H's case, it isn't a time period he forgets, it is certain kinds of incidents he remembers with stunning clarity and others he has no recollection of.

I like the "keep expectations low and PMA high", from NLT. But I hear you oozing lots and lots of PMA!

Loved AJ's post too!

[chasingpavements]

TSquared, that is great that your wife is opening up to you, and feels more comfortable about everything. It's those small little things, and small steps, that really make a difference!

Also, from your post earlier, it is good that you feel you no longer 'need' her. I think we get to that place where we depend and rely on our partner to much, physically as well as emotionally. You have done a lot of self discovery and it's great that you are feeling more independant now.

PS. I was remembering your discussion about quantum physics and for some reason it made me think of this quote from Big Bang Theory:

[Missy is leaving and Sheldon is saying goodbye to her.]

Missy: I want you to know I'm very proud of you.
Sheldon: Really?
Missy: Yep. I'm always bragging to my friends about my brother, the Rocket Scientist.
[Sheldon looks in disbelief.]
Sheldon: You tell people I'm a Rocket Scientist?!
Missy: Well yeah.
Sheldon: I'm a theoretical physicist.
Missy: What's the difference?
Sheldon: What's the difference?!
Missy: Goodbye, Shelly.
Sheldon: My God! Why don't you just tell them I'm a toll taker at the Golden Gate Bridge! Rocket Scientist, how humiliating!

------------------------------
cheers,
TGIF

-cp

[TSquared2]

Thank you, fine peoples...

I think they do have "windows of clarity" every now and then through this, and they know what they are doing is wrong, but as said here, and implied by what W didn't say (lol!)...is they can't stop themselves. Driven by very, very deep wounds/needs.

For me, my own self-interest included, I cannot see how W's feeling guilty, remorse, etc, to the extent that I know she is capable of historically, can help me reach my goal of new R. I know it is there, and I wonder if that might have been contributing to her hesitating...after all, I can't imagine having to "return" after all this, worried that spouse was going to hold this time and actions over my head for the rest of life...

So I can't hang onto it, for me. That is just what works for me...I always have been pretty good at letting go and moving from things in other areas, and that is what I am feeling now. Maybe the "clean slate" text helped break that fear barrier some, reassured her that there will be no constant reminder/reference back to what she did, that she was truly forgiven, and my actions have matched those words for quite some time now...and who would even begin to want to live and be married with that reminder imposed by their spouse?

Not me.


Lol, sorry for the stream of consciousness post, guess I am talking out loud here today, fitting the pieces together...
busy Friday in nerd land...

[TSquared2]

lol, nerd-land above was referring to me and my mind and life...