The Miracle Worker

[~ kd ~]

Right now tnmom, you want D4's dad to come to the table and co-parent. Maybe he really does want to.

How can you empathize with him as a tool to help him feel safe enough to come to the table and co-parent WITH you?

[tnmom66]

Just so you know, how I am dealing with my stbx is the same as how he appears to be dealing with you.

Frankly, I want nothing to do with my stbx. I have gone as dark as possible. We have custody arrangements and I stick to them. Nothing more, nothing less. If she attempts to engage me for any reason, I ignore it.

I want nothing to do with her and I don't want her to chase me. I'm done.

And that... sounds to me like the possible reasons for his behaviour. He's setting his boundaries with you. He's not playing a game.

He has set his boundaries and I have set mine. He keeps changing the rules. He IS playing games. My therapist has talked him twice and he thinks he is playing games, too, but mostly just doesn't have good relationship skills.

I have, as I said, not pursued this man AT ALL in a year and a half since I dumped HIM, other than by trying to conform to his requests and honor his boundaries. My therapist says that trying to make him happy is "pursuit behavior". So I have mostly just done whatever we BOTH want (minimize contact, keep it just about the child) and occasionally I did what I wanted, like sending him a picture of our daughter doing something exciting or sharing with him via text something cute she said or some new skill she has mastered.

To be a little more clear about this, my stbx has set up the kid schedule. Something that I asked for because without it, I saw the kids very little. All based on a schedule that stbx created, without discussing it with me. Her L drafted the schedule, along with the separation agreement. Because I knew I would not be able to "negotiate" with stbx, I agreed to the schedule because, it was certainly much better than prior and it was at least "close to fair".

And... once it was signed, my W then verbally asked / suggested / stated that she wanted us to be flexible. So... in her mind, it was back down to her way or the highway, for my visits with the kids. She would ask for a change in the schedule and I would say, "OK". I asked for a change in the schedule and I was accused of wanting things only when it was convenient for me. So much for fixed OR flexible schedule...

HE is the one who did not want a written parenting plan and wanted to keep things "flexible". That's fine, but when things come up, he needs to communicate!


Unfortunately, it is the child who looses the most in a separation / divorce.

Is it inconvenient? Sure. Does it svck? Yes. Can we control others? no.

Rather than trying to push some change on him, how can you work with what you've got?

I do not believe that we cannot control others. I believe we can influence some people in some ways some of the time, if we know what buttons to push. I am only interested in a win-win situation and right now we are in a lose-lose situation.

[tnmom66]

tnmom, I do want you to know that I empathize with your sitch. A lot of what you've written is very telling.

I do want to ask you, has your entire relationship with him been you steamrolling him?

You appear to be a very strong character. I do understand you are frustrated right now, but it seems like for the entire relationship with him, you have "directed" all things in the relationship. Your entire focus right now appears to be pushing your will and desire on him and how custody and visits with D4 will go.

Do you make the majority of the decisions around your custody and visitation with your teen kids and ex?

No, no, no. This is a DRAMATIC change in my attitude and also in what I plan to be in my behavior, as well. How can I be "directing" things when I have catered to almost all of his whims? I stood up to him when he said if I ever get married or have another man around our daughter, he'll see a lawyer to get full custody. When he said, "Don't ask me questions about my work, my family, my friends, or soccer" I didn't. He had previously talked very openly about these things, but I recognized it as a boundary. He doesn't answer the phone when I call him, but when he called me when I was at the gym and I didn't get back to him within 15 min or so (my phone was in the car), he left work in the middle of the morning and drove to my house and was sitting in my drive way when I got to my car at the gym and returned his call.

He is a very complicated person. I read "Men Who Can't Love" before I got pregnant with him (my pregnancy was an unwelcomed surprise!) I knew that we could never have a truly healthy and satisfying relationship of any kind, but I thought we could both settle some, for our daughter's sake.

For the first 3 years, things were mostly okay and for several months at a time we were actually pretty "friendly" but we ran into problems when I wanted emotional intimacy and affection and he didn't want to give it to me, but he didn't want me getting it from anyone else, either.

My ex husband and I make decisions together and rarely disagree. Usually when we disagree, he is the one who "wins".

I am really one of the easiest people in the world to get along with.

I am not just frustrated now for myself, I feel HIS pain and frustration. I feel HIS cry for help. i might be TOTALLY off base, but this is a 180 for me. I am going to fight FOR him and hope I fight harder than he fights AGAINST me. I love this man and he is a good man and a good father and I feel like nobody has stood up to him/for him.

I want to solve problems. I want to make things better. I want to bind up wounds. This man acts the way he does because he doesn't know how NOT to.

I am shooting in the dark, but I do feel very much like I might finally be on the right track. Actually, I could not have taken this approach a year or two ago, I needed him and wanted him and it was hard for me to respect his boundaries. It hurt me that he built all these walls. Now I have a certain detachment that helps me respond to him more objectively. MY feelings and desires are not so important anymore. When I realized how much HE was hurting and how his anxiety is eating away at him, and how his games might actually be "cries for help"....well, it's much more about HIM and much LESS about ME than it would have been 2 years ago.

[tnmom66]

Just to be clear, I understand that you said you've been distancing and detaching from him over the last while.

Do you understand that kind of behaviour can APPEAR to be passive-aggressive attempts to manipulate others? That could be how it appears, to D4's dad.

If he thinks you are trying to manipulate him, and it DOES appear that way in your posts, he is very likely going to continue to resist.

Until he feels you are no longer pressuring him... until he feels that you are actually listening to him... and his needs...

This had NOT occurred to me. I guess no matter what I do, I'm screwed. I most definitely have felt like I have been misunderstood. Maybe this is what is going on....can you elaborate of what I have done and how it can seem passive-aggressive and manipulative?

I thought it was simple. What do you want? Okay, here is is, Happy now? No? Why not? What's it going to take for us to each live our separate lives in peace and our limited contact to ust be civil?

You have my attention.....maybe you have something there...

What do you think I should have done instead of trying to honor his boundaries and do what he said he wanted me to do?

I still think this is related to his emotional problems. How can any NORMAL person be so complicated?

[~ kd ~]

Maybe I'm not clear on something. What kind of "rules" does he keep changing?

Yes, as your therapist indicates, trying to make him happy is possibly pursuit behaviour. It can also possibly be co-dependent behaviour.

What are your therapists thoughts on how you can change your approach in order to solve these problems?

So, are you saying that there is no parenting plan in place?

Then, why are you chasing him (more pursuit behaviour) to work on the schedule. The onus should be on him to let YOU know when he wants to visit with D4.

I do not believe that we cannot control others. I believe we can influence some people in some ways some of the time, if we know what buttons to push. I am only interested in a win-win situation and right now we are in a lose-lose situation.

ouch... that appeared to me, to be a very contradictory paragraph.

In my experience, one of the biggest challenges most people have is accepting that a solution or path to a solution that does not look like we imagined, can still be OK. People seem to feel that win / win is black white and everything that does not look like what we hoped win / win would look like, is suddenly dropped into the loose / loose bucket.

[~ kd ~]

I just saw your last two posts and will read through them and offer support on them.

[tnmom66]

If he thinks you are trying to manipulate him, and it DOES appear that way in your posts, he is very likely going to continue to resist.

Until he feels you are no longer pressuring him... until he feels that you are actually listening to him... and his needs...

And when I asked him about a year ago, when I felt like we were misunderstanding each other, if he would please go to another counseling session with us so we could get help understanding what each other REALLY wanted and was trying to do, he told me he called the police and filed a police report because he felt like I was harassing him and trying to get him to do something I didn't want him to do (improve communication in our parenting relationship, which at that point wasn't even CO-parenting anymore). Why would ANYONE want to NOT understand/be understood by someone they need to communicate with?

[tnmom66]

I don't even want to co-parent anymore...I just want him to not have an anxiety attack and be unable to respond when I send him a text about drop off/pick up time. I have a hard time empathizing because i don't know why he'd respond that way. It doesn't make sense to me! I only avoid people when I'm mad at them. He doesn't have any reason to be mad at me because I'm not doing anything he told me to not to and I'm doing almost everything he has told me to do...other than to not date other men.

[~ kd ~]

I will make this a little more simple than going point for point in your other two posts.

Just so you know, I accept that D4's dad could be a complete nutbag...

that said, I do my best to remain subjective. Many people are simply misunderstood.

Regarding the schedule, how far in advance do you KNOW what you might be doing with D4? There are a number of online (and free with advertising) parenting or family calendars. It could go a long way to help you and D4's dad work out when D4 is available.

Are you worried that he might take you to court on custody? Why?

I think we're getting into some really good stuff, here.

Are you indicating that you are generally a free spirit and work hard to help everyone get what they want? Do you find that you have trouble enforcing your own boundaries? Does it bother you that even though you can understand someone else' perspective, that no one seems to appreciate yours?

Basically, if you were to chart out what he wants and what you want, there's probably very few "sticking points". You may find that the two of you agree on more than it seems, it's just that the ones where there is friction are very prominent.

What would YOUR boundaries be?

How do they conflict with what you feel HIS boundaries are?

As far as passive-aggressive, I'm not suggesting that it IS passive-aggressive, so much as it could APPEAR TO BE passive-aggressive.

Do you find that when you want something, you form a picture or mental story board on how it would look, for you?

[Grizz]

Just a quick comment, I have been accused of being passive agressive by my W. While trying to detach and distance myself I have thought/wondered if she may think of this as, more of the same. I can definitely see how she could think that but she asked for space and that is what I have tried to give her. I just don't know of any other way to do it. Just my two cents.