Should I initiate R talk?

[Arsene]

Thanks MrBond, Hopefulinga and scaredsilly,

It helps to hear what you guys think of the situation. I can see the victim in her so much but there's also a side of her which seems to be playing ostrich. She's got her head in the sand and refuses to see what she's doing or hear what others are saying.

There comes a time when you have to tell yourself that if everyone is saying the same thing, there must be some truth in it but I feel that for now, she might still be infatuated with OM, no matter how hard it is in this country to have an affair (you need to show a marriage certificate to get a room with a woman and police regularly raids seedy hotels and puts adulterers in jail - Boarding houses are unisex and many have curfews).

As someone was saying earlier in my thread (maybe 25), they aren't having a great time at it because I also don't think that the A is in the open within her circle of friends. People here are very judgmental and put a lot of weight on character (even though they is a lot of hypocrisy).

Strangely enough, I do feel better. I think I might be over the "feeling sorry for myself" stage and moving on to acceptance. More on this later.

Thanks,

[MrBond]

"refuses to see what she's doing or hear what others are saying."

No. She is seeing what she's doing and hearing what others are saying. She's just CHOOSING to not see them as negatives. She's seeing this as an opportunity for her to finally be free and be whom she's always wanted to be. She can now drop the chains and burden of a husband and child and live the life she's always wanted. Of course, she's blocked out the fact that she also chose to get married in the first place.

You're accepting the fact that you can't force her to change and that change must be made on her own. This is a good thing. What are your plans for your D?

[Arsene]

Thanks MrBond for putting things in perspective. Unfortunately, a new event just took place and it also puts things in a different light for me.

Now I need advice. My D8 just told me that her mom picked her up from school with OM. Now last week (or ten days ago), me and W had agreed that we would not expose D8 to our romantic involvements yet D8 seemed quite familiar with OM's name and surname so I asked her if she often saw him and she said sometimes.

What do I do with that. I don't want D8 to see her mom's boyfriend. Not now anyway. Maybe once we are divorced and she has been with him for at least a year, but not while we are in this situation. What can I do about it? What should I do? Should I try to gently remind her of the boundaries we'd set? Should I forbid her from seeing D8? Or taking her out?
I don't know anymore. why is she lying like that? Why is she even doing that? doesn't she realise the pain and anguish she is causing and the possible impact on D8?

Why is it that every time I think I'm getting a hang on things she changes the plan.

I'm getting sick of this. I don't know if I can manage this much longer. Maybe I should just leave this country with D8. Especially so that I heard from lawyer yesterday that the law here state that the child always stays with the mother, especially if the father is expat. I don't want to lose my D8 because of this. What can I do now?

[MrBond]

"My D8 just told me that her mom picked her up from school with OM. Now last week (or ten days ago), me and W had agreed that we would not expose D8 to our romantic involvements yet D8 seemed quite familiar with OM's name and surname so I asked her if she often saw him and she said sometimes."

I read through all of your threads and I don't see anywhere that she actually agreed to not exposing to your D8. In fact, alot of it was about what YOU didn't want to happen.

Well at least now you know why she was so upset at the school person. She's guilty, feels ashamed, but instead of confronting it as something wrong, she blames everyone else. Even you.

"I don't want D8 to see her mom's boyfriend. Not now anyway."

There's nothing you can really do about it unless there's a law in the country you're at.

What should I do? Should I try to gently remind her of the boundaries we'd set?"

Again, I don't see where you had set any boundaries. In fact, you never told her that she couldn't see anyone. In any case, if you demand that she stop seeing OM, then she'll get upset, call you controlling and take your child away.

"Should I forbid her from seeing D8? Or taking her out?"

Can't do that unless there's a law there. Plus you said no matter what, you would let D8 see her mom.

"why is she lying like that?"

Because she wants to. She's afraid to tell the truth.

"Why is she even doing that?"

Because she sees you as not being together anymore so she feels she can see whomever she wants to.

"doesn't she realise the pain and anguish she is causing and the possible impact on D8?"

Her feelings for the OM are probably overtaking those things.

"Why is it that every time I think I'm getting a hang on things she changes the plan."

That's why I keep saying to stop analyzing everything she's doing. You've been wrong every time.

"Maybe I should just leave this country with D8."

Then you're just using your D8 to punish your W. It would make you no better than her.

"I don't want to lose my D8 because of this. What can I do now?"

Talk to a L and find out what your legal rights are. Then stop enabling her. Stop helping her. Stop making excuses for her behavior. Stop giving her money. Stop planning things between your D and her. Tell her that you will not live in an open marriage and that as long as OM was in the picture. If she threatens you, tell her what the L has told you and that she can have the papers filed because you are done and the OM can have her.

[Arsene]

I'll go talk to L again tomorrow. What I was told so far is that I have no legal rights in this country. I don't exist. I'm not even on the family card (a document stating the family hierarchy).

I was also told that a divorce was difficult to get because both of us have to go to the place we were married (my MIL's city - 2-hour flight) in order to even file for it. Then there is a lengthy process which includes mediation by the imam and some officials. From what I hear, this is kind of a grilling of the couple, meant to intimidate people and make them reconsider. In Most case it works because around here, no one wants to wash their dirty laundry in the open.

Then there is more paperwork and the divorce might still be refused if the mediators don't think there are good enough reasons. I was told that in the best of cases, it could take a minimum of 3 months to make it final.

One of the things I was also told was that the children always go to the mother. Now this is what I want to find out about since in our case, W is walking away and pretty much living outside of the cultural boundaries of her country. For what she is doing now, she would get caned in one of the stricter parts of the country.

One the other hand I was also told that even without a Divorce, W and OM could just bribe an imam to get some unofficial marriage certificate (which is what is usually issued for the second, third and fourth wife). Now, my W being Buddhist on her ID card might make this a bit difficult (mixt marriages ar not allowed) but then again, if the bribe is big enough anything is possible.

I will talk to lawyer about exactly what my options are. BTW, when I talked about leaving the country with D8, it wasn't to get even with W, it was to make sure D8 is not taken away from me because of a law which doesn't see me as a person.

So basically, from what you are saying, there is nothing I can say to W about this. Could I not tell her how I felt when I found out and ask her to please refrain? At least for the time being. Do I have to take every thing she throws at me without saying a word? Is there a way that this could be addressed?

I just had a look again at my thread and you are right, I don't seem to have talked about an instance where I told her I didn't think it as a good idea for us to introduce D8 to our OP, if any. At that point she had gotten a bit upset and turned away but had said that she agreed as well. Now I know, Believe nothing they say.

[Arsene]

"That's why I keep saying to stop analyzing everything she's doing. You've been wrong every time."

I have, haven't I?

I've calmed down. I'm glad I vented here and with a friend of mine. I guess I won't do anything for now. I'm expecting DR in a few days and I'd told W I might take a few days out of town. She'd offered to take care of D8, I'm a bit nervous about that but I'll think about it some more. I asked D8 if she would like to go somewhere for the Idul Fitri Holiday and she seems to be open to something. That might be good too. It'll give me time to catch up on DR and figure out how to DB properly.

What is your opinion? Can any harm be done by exposing D8 to OM? The bast@#$d got my W and now he wants my D8 too, and I should just let it happen? It's tough. I'm torn.

You are right, I don't want t tell her what to do about OM because she's already expressed that she was tired of every one trying to tell her what to do, on the other hand, I think that when it comes to D8, I have a right, an obligation to tell her how I feel about that.

What do you think?

[MrBond]

"The bast@#$d got my W and now he wants my D8 too, and I should just let it happen?"

Now you're making stuff up in your head. You don't know what the extent of their interactions were with your D and it's your W's choice to bring your D around him. This is about you and your W. All he wants is to get in your W's pants.

Like I wrote earlier, this is what you need to do -

"Talk to a L and find out what your legal rights are. Then stop enabling her. Stop helping her. Stop making excuses for her behavior. Stop giving her money. Stop planning things between your D and her. Tell her that you will not live in an open marriage and that as long as OM was in the picture. If she threatens you, tell her what the L has told you and that she can have the papers filed because you are done and the OM can have her."

So what have you "stopped" doing?

[Arsene]

Sorry MrBond, I guess you ask what I've "stopped" doing because I havent' stopped analyzing, right?

About your solution, I have to admit that it's what I feel like doing but at this time, before I read DR, I am nervous about this. It seems like a very strong an approach and I don't even know that I'm somewhere where I can even begin to make demands on W. In the past, I have told her that I didn't agree with OM and that I didn't think it was right but for now, until i read DR and figure out exactly where I am, I'm reluctant to do more.

With regards t the rest, I think you are right. It's what i thought this afternoon. I need to go dark and stick with it, no matter what, but I also need to remain courteous but no more than I woulds to a neighbour.

I was just wondering if mentioning where I stand about D8 meeting OM was also something I could do. If setting some sort of boundary about that would be ok, and how I should do it. Especially that it's something we had talked about in the past.

Now, I feel like a doormat. Like she can walk all over her and I just take it because I'm afraid to send her running further. It looks to me like she's about as far as she can be anyways.

I can't wait to get DR.

[MrBond]

Let's face it. You haven't even read DR yet, so you don't know what DBing truly is. You're not "breaking any rules" if you do what I suggested. You're just afraid.

"I guess you ask what I've "stopped" doing because I havent' stopped analyzing, right?"

No. I'm asking have you stopped giving her money, enabling her, making things easy for her, etc.? You went out of your way to do everything for her but got nothing in return.

"I was just wondering if mentioning where I stand about D8 meeting OM was also something I could do."

Yes because you are the father. You don't know what kind of character this scumbag has. In fact, anyone who goes out with a M woman isn't a great guy to begin with.

You have a right to establish boundaries.