Should I initiate R talk?

[Arsene]

Hi 25,

Thanks for your words and guidance once again.

It will relax you and take your mind off your situation 24/7 and you'll be able to let new things and new changes in you SINK IN...."

God knows I really need that right now. This has got to be the most exhausting 3 months I have ever been through.


Simply point it out NO MORE. IF anyone says anything you can be a tad surprised and say "Really? Well that's good b/c I've wanted to work on that for a while now..." AND IF it's your wife saying it, make it a SMALL thank you and change the topic of just STFU

Got you.


Why would you be "Cross" anyhow? Examine that seemingly natural urge of yours. IT happens too much.

Your w is an adult and when d is with her, WIFE decides the activities. Unless they are literally dangerous things to do,why do you get to have an opinion on their activity or return time?

Maybe IF d8 has school EARLY in the morning then maybe it wasn't even intentional & they were simply late....but that's the only thing I can of mattering...

I don't mean to go on the defensive here and I do know that I have a huge tendency to judge and criticize others, which I am working on. This is why I express these thoughts here instead of to W.

The issue here is that D8 has been coming down with a cold lately and that we get up at 5 am for her to get ready for school which starts at 7 am. Her regular bedtime during the week is 8 pm but when she is a bit under the weather, it can be as early as 7 pm. W knows that and yet, they got here at 9 pm and D8 still had to prepare her things for school and take a shower. In the end, she didn't go to bed before nearly 10 pm and this morning was exhausted and very difficult to get out of bed and through her morning routines.

I also agree that what W does during her time with D8 is none of my business, however, with regards to this weekend, which was meant to bring W and D8 closer as D8 had been having a hard time coping with her mom not being around. I have to disagree with the fact that W dropped D8 at her friend's house Saturday afternoon and picked her up Sunday afternoon at 3 pm (at which point she spent from 3 - 9 pm with her). This is not going to help D8 cope with the abandonment issues she might feel about her mom. Nonetheless, other than a kindly expressed concern, I didn't pursue the matter further and managed to keep my passive aggressive behaviour in check.

another 180 would be to NOT talk. Have too much to do (GAL) and be too busy for another "Session" in which she shares all her thoughts at the moment/second and then you spend hours or days analyzing them. Be warm and polite but post pone or avoid all these endless talks.

A phrase you'll hear A LOT here, is

"Believe none of what they say and only half of what they DO."

THe constant temperature taking is NOT helping YOU.

Agreed. I am nonetheless happy that last night occured but I want to try to make myself less available for these talks, for now. I find it a lot to process but considering this was really the first time she spoke about herself (and that I listened - mostly) I wouldn't have missed it for the world. It felt overall pretty good and I slept soundly, which doesn't happen often.


this^^^ seems unecessary to keep saying. Are you asking her (indirectly or even non verbally) for some sort of feedback? That will come across as NEEDY and that cannot happen right now.


No. I didn't. At least not this time and as for the other times, I don't think I have elicited any of this. The comments come from her.


Also, maybe she is testing the so called changes which have been how long now? A month? A week? IT's a drop in the bucket for now.

3) as I like to say, "do the math"...

Small consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

I've been back for 3 weeks but been working on many of these issues (especially the anger one) for about 3 months now, since I received her bomb email.

I understand what you are saying. I am working on it and I realize it's not going to be resolved tomorrow.

Learn to adopt 2 phrases that don't allow for negative spiralling but that validate, do Not escalate, AND show change on your end. For when she goes over the marital history-
FIRST-

1) When she brings up something 'real' from the past like an event hurt her & for which you feel at least partly responsible (or totally) responsible for hurting her, say

"W, I'm so sorry that hurt you. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

2) if she recalls an event you have NO recall of, OR a very different recall of, you do not deny it, you say
"Wow, I sure don't remember it that way, but I'm sorry if you were hurt...

(And if need be, depending on the situation, ADD)

and If anything like that happened now, I'd handle it differently."

Point taken. I have written them down and will make them part of my repertoire.

NOTE TO SELF: don't herald or highlight behavior that most people consider just normal courtesy.

Plus once you saw that she had forgotten it, you needed to drop that (or not bring it up at all.)

Yeah, Got you.



doesn't this^^^ all pretty much resonate with you as being valid? Doing lessons with your d isn't the hard or most meaninful part of parenting.As I recall that was your "activity" or interaction w/her til recently.

So it means you are on the right track about the changes you are making, correct?

Right again.

did you want her to earn more or not? Did you want her to stay at home w/d8 or not? Is all this her fears talking?

The situation in this country is that most middle class families (which we were) have maids to do all the chores. Some westerners can't get used to the idea of having someone living in their house but in my view it was essential as I didn't want to W to spend her time doing this when we had an alternative (Maids salaries are very affordable and with both of us working in the evenings, There was no other alternative anyways). At some time W attempted to get a job and was offered 150 USD per months to work 40 hours per week for a school. This is what I made in 2 days and I told her then that if she wanted to do it for herself she should but if it was for the money, she didn't have to. I rather she worked on her music, which is what she has always wanted to do.

I may seem like I am defending myself here but at some point I think I have to. I want to take responsibility for my actions and I have faced the music. But I assure you that I supported my W in every of her endeavours. I have encouraged her to pursue her music and to grow and expand her horizons. In her good days, she has often thanked me for this and to me, it was only natural. I married her not to wash my clothes and raise my kids. I married her because I viewed her as and equal (in fact, even more than that - my friends told me I always kept her on a pedestal).
I always respected who she wanted to be and who she was. She was my companion. My friend.

I guess at some point, around when D8 was born, I forgot how to show her and I know I changed in many ways which weren't good but I was never a dead beat father. I have made sure I spent lots of time with D8, throughout her life, no matter what W might say now. I know I haven't been perfect but who has? I'm willing to improve and work on myself but d@$%& it!! I have not been half as bad as she paints me now. I know you may see a different picture and for all I know you may be right. If you are it has never been my intention, and still I have NOT been a bad husband or father. I have always taken my responsibilities and been there for my family. I don't drink, I don't go out with friends until all hours of the night, I don't womanize. I'm caring. and the list goes on. BUT... I went through a tough period. and this changed me in ways I hate to see. I have done things which are not within my character. And for that, I am sorry. Really sorry.

(I apologize for this venting. It's just that I don't understand how I can regain self-esteem if I keep taking all of this and feeling the way i do without saying how it was from my side. I know this is not the time or space for this but isn't there a possibility that she wasn't always there? That she wasn't always that perfect mother?)

would it have made any difference to you to have her tell you, then? Be honest. Would it? Would you have said "OMG I need help" and gotten it?

And when you say "depression" does that mean you got treatment for it?

And when you say "depression" is that the whole negative critical outbursts chronically happening?

How could I get treatment for something I (we) didn't see at the time. No, it's just rehashing through stuff at a later date that friends who have been through depression or been with people going through depression who have told me that they thought I had been gong through something of the sort. I know you might think I am trying to pas on the blame. It maybe so. But the person she married wasn't all as bad as what is being depicted here.

Listen 25, I'm sorry if i seem resistant to a lot of this but as you say all the time, believe nothing they say. Well I do believe a lot of what she says and I am facing my responsibilities in this but this re-writing of our history doesn't seem fair to me. I take it from her and "try" (though not always successfully) not to defend myself, and I realize that you are trying to help me see things from a different perspective (and for this I am eternally grateful) but the man that she remembers, and the man you see through her eyes, is not the man who she married and who I was up until a few years ago.

Thanks so much for all of this though. I feel a lot better now and I think I am ready to start doing some GAL.

I'm off to a job interview now. Wish me luck.

(and really, thank you for being here.)

[Arsene]

I got the list, and thanks KD for #41. I think I should get this one tattooed somewhere.

DB friends. I know I'm not the easiest person to deal with right now and I apologize for this. I do feel like I'm reacting too much and not thinking things through enough.

I know that it's been three months now and that I should be getting used to this situation but bear with me. I'm struggling to keep up with the pace and get some sort of security/stability for D8 at the same time.

I'm getting all of what you are telling me, and more, through spending my sleepless nights reading others' sitches.

I feel bad because I feel like I should be contributing more but I can hardly focus on my own sitch right now and I feel like I babble when I comment on others'.

I know that I must read the book. I've read the 1st chapter and some other summary pdf file I found online and tonight. In fact, I'm presently waiting for a friend in a cafe to finally order DR and another 4 or 5 books mentioned on this site (Love must be tough, Compelled to control, After the affair, the 5 love languages and codependent no more).

What I really want to say here, is that I do appreciate your help, your time and your advice.

I'm moving along slowly, but moving along (no need to rush, everyone tells me I'm in for a long ride ).

Today, I had a job interview which ended up being a partnership proposal. I'm meeting him again on Friday. I also took up meditation lessons for free from the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (recommended by my C) and approached one of the universities where they offer language lessons to go and learn the local language (the cost is too high for me for now but I want to meet the director to try to see if I can pay for it in exchange for my teaching English). Yesterday, I met with a friend guitarist and we planned some songs to learn in order to start a duet of some sort.

I also plan to travel out of town for a few days next week to explore the possibility of doing some sort of import/export business.

On the fun side, I need to make another circle of friends so I've spoken to one of my friend's who is in the Hash Harriers and asked her if I could join and start hiking with them. I'm still waiting for an answer on starting dance lessons as well. The problem is that I don't have money to splurge right now so we're back to square one. I need a job, soon.

Please don't give up on me, I feel like I'm starting to climb the hill again. I'll get there, soon. I just needed some time to make sense of things, figure out what I really did and what was just in her mind. I still don't know but I was never as bad as she makes me sound. I need to regain my self confidence, my self esteem, I need to find who the real me is, now, as there is no point in feeling guilty for the past. I need to forgive myself, because now, I feel like the worst piece of sh@$%t in the world, but I know it's not true. that is not who I am, and this is giving me the chance to prove it to myself. I'm a much better person than what I've been in the last few years and i 'm a much better person than what my W thinks of me right now.

Thanks for listening. This is just venting but it helps, somehow.

[Arsene]

Ok, here is an update on my life.

Managed to order DR and Love Must Be Tough last night(just couldn't afford the others right now - even this is setting me back quite a bit)and with the express delivery, I should get them before the 13th of this month or at least I hope so because on the 15th everything is closed for the end of fasting holiday and even couriers (UPS, DLL, TNT) close shop for 10 days.

Today, I started my meditation lessons which I think are going to help me with my 180s. The whole concept is about replacing your "old" thoughts with new ones. I enjoyed the lesson and I know i can learn a lot about figuring myself out.

I also got myself a massage to help me relax and then I spoke to the director of the language training centre of one of the local universities about teaching English in exchange for lessons in the local language. He seemed receptive to the idea and I might even get a job out of it.

By the way, my job interview of yesterday wasn't really for a job but for a partnership.

When W found the school where we registered out D8, she met the owner who is a very nice man. They talked at length then and she was inquiring as to the possibility of getting work there for herself as a music or English teacher. Apparently at that time, the talk turned to me and the owner expressed an interest about me and that is how I managed to get the interview.

Problem is, W never told this man about our sitch and during the interview he expressed that he would love for me and W to meet him and his W to further discuss how we can work together.

I didn't know what to say then so I told him I'd talk to my W about it, which I did, in as detached a way as can be possible. At first she seemed kind of interested and when she went to pick up D8, that afternoon, she even told the staff that we would be there for the meeting.

This morning, I got a text from her where she stated that she thought some more about it and that she wasn't comfortable with it anymore and that she thought we should tell the owner about our status. I simply replied that I understood and that I would tell the owner of the school today when I picked up D8.

This I did and the owner of the school was shocked and saddened by this news. He asked me why I didn't want to be with my W and I corrected him saying that it was the other way around. he also asked me if I still loved my wife and I told him I did. I then had to excuse myself and leave. I had forgotten how nosy/inquisitive the locals were.

I hate the fact that W decides to leave and I'm the one who has to tell people about it. I had to break it gently to D8 and many of our mutual friends, and now this. I guess it's no one's business but on the other hand I don't really know what to tell people when they ask. Ironically that's one of the reason W said she'd wanted a Divorce last week. To make it easier to tell people about it. I told her then that I understood but that it really was no one's business, what we were going through. And now this!

Nonetheless, the owner's parting words were "I'll contact you later. I need you to be a part of this". I'm not sure what that means exactly. I don't know if I got the "job" and if I do, what the terms will be so I'm still on the look out for something until this becomes more concrete.

I'm still a bit in the dumps but using the meditation techniques is helping me to keep things in perspective. I think it'll also help me detach as some of the main "sins" we need to get rid of to achieve "inner peace", according to the guru, include anger, greed, lust and attachments, all of which I could do without.

Thanks for sticking around.

Cheers!

[Arsene]

Middle of the night. Just woke from a dream where W and I were still together, in the same bed, but she can't stand the sight of me. It hurts.

At bedtime, W called D8. D8 asked me again about whether mom will ever come back and how she wants us to be a happy family again. D8 started crying, which brought tears to me eyes. I hugged her and told her that I wasn't giving up. That I would do every thing I could to get her family back. I told her that I loved her and her mom more than anything and I asked her to be patient, and to be strong. She made me promise I'd never give up. I told her I would try as hard as I could.

I looked at my phone just now. There's a text from W, sent a few hours ago. She asks if I'm busy. I'm afraid to answer. I'm not going to. I was sleeping. I'm afraid to hear what he wants to tell me.

[Arsene]

Woke up to another dream this morning. This time, W and I were friends. We kissed and it was good. We were still separated but I think it looked like we were on the path to reconciliation.

I guess that means anything is possible. But I need to focus on, NO EXPECTATIONS!!!

Off for my meditation class and my session with IC. I hope I can find the strength I need right now.

I guess I'll have to see W this afternoon when I get back home. I hope everything goes well and that I just let my imagination run wild last night.

I look forward to reading any of you. I feel like I'm being given the silent treatment.

[MrBond]

What do you need advice on?

[Arsene]

Hi MrBond,

I don't need advice. I'm just journalling, I guess. keeping track of my feelings and my thoughts.

Today's been a bit weird. It turns out the owner of D8's school called my W in to have a chat this morning.

By the time I got back home from my meditation class and my C, wife was here and she was pretty angry (for once, not at me). apparently, the owner of the school tried to convince her (bully her) into going back to her family. He's apparently a qualified psychologist, yet his "techniques" included telling W that under the laws of this country, she would get the child and that she was unable to support D8 therefore she should just come back to the couple. Other Psychology "techniques" included using guilt to force her back and even going so far as to tell her that I was in tears while i told him about the fact that we were separated (which I was not). He also tried to bully her by saying that if she didn't come back to me, that the deal about the partnership was not going to happen.

Of course W was upset, and frankly, so was I but while she went on about this guy, I remembered that this is the kind of nosy attitude that had got to me a few years ago when I was going through my depression. People not minding their business and coming into your home to tell you how to live your life. I validated her but I also told her that this is what was to be expected in this part of the country and that she probably shouldn't take it too personally. I'm sure he had the best of intentions but just went at it the wrong way. she agreed and we had a laugh about it.

One thing she said that struck me was that she was tired of every one telling her what she should do. She expressed that many people have told her that she was not justified doing what she was doing and that she should go back to her couple. That I was not as bad as she had told them. She said that she felt that everyone put in question her decision and that this made her feel stupid. She said that she wasn't stupid and that she had put a lot of thought into this decision and that her actions were based on her perspective. She wondered why no one understood that and why they had to undermine her decision. I validated without giving my opinion on this.

The rest of the afternoon went very well and we had a good time. I felt strong after my meditation and my C so I was able to be friendly and pleasant and we had a good laugh over all.
There was no R talk and I still felt some distance but at least, she feels comfortable enough to spend some time with me. I didn't follow her around, in fact i just sat in the living room playing guitar and she's the one who came around, offering me a cup of coffee and sitting by me.
I felt great because for some reasons, I didn't feel needy or pushy. The meditation seems to be working.

BTW, my C told me that W had complained about being emotionally abused when she saw her a few years ago but that after hearing my side of the story, C thought that maybe W was being a bit selfish and behaving like a kid having a tantrum.

I don't really know what to make of all of this. This is a country where women get beaten regularly, where a man can have up to 4 wives and he can force them to wear a scarf and to stay at home. A country where women have little or no voice yet, my W who always had my support, and who was able to pursue her career as a singer, working in bars until the wee hours of the morning, who was allowed, no, encourage to speak her opinion freely and who was respected and treated as an equal apparently said I was abusing her emotionally. Frankly, I thought about it, and spoke to a friend about this tonight and we both think that this is insane. He knows that I have always respected her and he's been a good friend of the family since the beginning. In his opinion, this is re-writing history. I also thought the same thing but being involved as i am, thought that maybe i wa missing something but now i don't think so. Even the C thought that this couldn't be after having met me a few times and hearing my side of the story.

I'm aware that it does take two to tango and as i said earlier, I do accept my lion's share of the responsibility, and I have worked/am working on that very seriously but i really don't think that me being a husband who didn't quite know how to love his wife equates t emotional abuse. i have never called her names, swore at her or treated her without respect. I have used guilt to manipulate her (subconsciously), I have critisized her and I have been impatient. I have also been angry about other events in her company, but very rarely has this anger been towards her (if at all). I have tried to fix things instead of being supportive with no expectation of a specific outcome and i have often discussed a point until I was right. Mea Culpa. I guess if all of this constitutes emotional abuse I am guilty.

I imagine that taken out of context, without all of the good things in our relationship, this might do the trick but there were so many good, happy moments in our relationship that I sincerely don't think so.

That's it for now.

[MrBond]

You're doing well so far. She could be in a 'victim' mode where she wants people to feel sorry for her. Well I'm sorry to tell you that if there's a mom who leaves her child for her own selfish needs, then you probably aren't going to get much sympathy from anyone.

And in fact, she probably did demonize you to others in order to justify her decision. All WAS's do that. You should have heard what my W accused me of. Let her deal with her own craziness.

[hopefulinga]

She could be in a 'victim' mode where she wants people to feel sorry for her. from anyone.

And in fact, she probably did demonize you to others in order to justify her decision. All WAS's do that. You should have heard what my W accused me of. Let her deal with her own craziness.

Ain't that the truth. My H can make me sound like the worst person on the face of the planet. I cannot tell you how many people have told me that my H said all kinds of nasty stuff about me, but the more they learned about him and me, the more they learned he was the problem. That's not to say that I don't have my share of problems and haven't contributed to the marital issues. I'm also dealing with "victim" mode.

You know in your mind and heart how you treated her. Remember, we're only supposed to believe 1/2 of what we hear.

[scaredsilly]

they never tell your side of the story.