Should I initiate R talk?

[Arsene]

Hi all,

I think I just broke a few DB rules. Let me explain.

Last night D8 had an awful night. She woke up crying and while I was hugging her to comfort her she told me that she missed cuddling with her mom. She also said that all her friends had happy families and that she wanted a happy family again. She asked me if we would ever have a happy family again. I was at a loss for words and on the edge of tears myself. I just told her that both her mom and myself loved her very much and that we needed to be strong and have faith. I told her that her mom needed some time to figure some things out and that we would give her a bit of space. I told her that I too , missed W and that I still loved her very much. I told her I was trying very hard to fix myself and to make sure we can have a happy family in the future. I don’t know if this is good but I just don’t have it in me to tell her that it might be over between her mom and I.

Through the night, she moved a lot and kicked me all night, keeping me awake for most of it (we share a queen size bed in our boarding house). Of course, this morning we were both exhausted and were almost late for school.

**I will bring this up with my C in a few days and arrange for D8 to see her. I’ve already talked to her about the fact that talking someone you don’t know sometimes is easier and asked her if she would like to meet my C. I think she is receptive to the idea. She even finds it funny that I have homework to do from the C.

Ok, so to continue, after getting home from school, I texted W to tell her that maybe, we (me and D8) should move into a house as soon as possible, to give D8 a more stable home. I figured that with a bit more routines and her own space with her toys (which are now all in boxes at friends’), home cooked meals and local friends to play with she might be able to adjust a bit more easily. Also, in a house, W could even spend more time with D8 and even, from time to time, stay the night I her room (which she can’t do here since we only have one room - by the way, I didn’t say this to W). After all, we have been living out of suitcase since April.

A few days ago, we had seen a house which might do (W saw it with us) so I thought that maybe it would be a good idea just to get this even though right now, our financial situation isn’t great. In fact, a few days ago, we decided that we should wait at least until I get work, especially so that the boarding house where I am now is quite big and managed by the mother of a friend who told us we could stay until the end of September (that’s when they lose the lease on the house). This is also convenient because my friend’s mom also loves D8 and often takes care of her if I need to step out.

Ok, so since there was so much to discuss, I suggested we meet and discuss our options, to which she happily agreed. We met downtown in a coffee stall and the meeting went well enough. I kept my head for most of it until W told me that D8 had asked if she could live with W. I was saddened by this and had to fight off tears. W said that she had asked D8 if she liked living with me and D8 answered that she did but that she missed W so much (there W had to hold back tears).

Anyways, I’ll try to make this long story a bit shorter by skipping a few things and bunching another few together. We went to see another house together on my motorcycle after dropping off her bicycle at her boarding house (my first time there) and we eventually agreed that maybe it’s not a good idea to rent a house just yet, mainly because there is a chance we can take over the lease of the boarding house where I am now at the end of September. This would be great as it would provide us with a bit of an income as well as with a home.

W said that she would try to see D8 more often and suggested she could perhaps even spend the night in our room every so often (I can sleep on an inflatable mattress we have).

Now, I know I probably broke a few rules but remember how four days ago, W said she wanted a divorce because we weren’t friends anymore and that we weren’t compatible? Well I think that what I was doing then (being dark/dim and mysterious) wasn’t working. I suspect that she got angry at the thought of me being with OW (my lady friend) and that this is what prompted her impulsive reaction. Since then we have made progress, met everyday (twice her initiative and once mine) and had an overall good time which sounds good to me.

Here are some good things which I think came out of today.

We talked about D8 and connected on most ideas to help her cope with this. The talk included how W can be around a bit more and maybe even spend the night once in a while (her ideas). It also included the possibility of D8 seeing my C.

We had a good time and she let me take her to a local food stall I discovered for some local porridge (which W loves).

W mentioned that she had noticed many changes in me, and that she thought I was doing well.

W mentioned that when talking to D8, D8 had told her that I didn’t get angry anymore.

She commented on how good a ride my motorbike was, how great it felt and what a good purchase it was (just a few days ago she called me selfish for buying it).

During our conversation, at one point when I was talking about how great D8 was, she reached out and squeezed my shoulder gently and we had good eye contact and a laugh on some things.

There was no R talk.

W didn't seem too concerned about my knowing where she lives.

I ended the meeting by dropping her off at her boarding house said a quick thank you and good bye and left right away.

These are the negative things which took place.

I initiated contact, the meeting and the lunch invitation.

I became teary-eyed at the mention of D8 wanting to live with W.

At one point, when I was talking about business ideas, W said that I would need a local to register it. Then she said that she supposed she could do it if I wanted.


Again, I don’t know if all of this is good or bad but at least we agreed that D8 is both our priority and I hope that we can help her cope with this.

On the DB side of things. What do I make of it? Probably too much. I’m just happy right now that W and I are on talking terms again and that she has noticed (and approves of) some of the changes I’ve made. I also have a feeling that OM might not be as big a part of W’s life as I thought. She talked a lot about wanting to spend more time with D8, spending Saturday nights here with her. Taking her to gigs if she had to. Even offered to take D8 during Idul Fitri (Muslim week-long holiday at the end of Ramadan)so that I can go for a motorbike drive to do research on some business ideas (import/export). With all of this, there doesn’t seem to be much time left for OM. I know, I’m just making assumptions but this helps me cope, for the moment.

I felt that she was looking at me with different eyes, and although there is still a lot of distance, (and I’m sure a long way to go) it’s nice to see her that way. I also noted that over the last few days, she often commented on how good I look. I know. It’ s not enough for a reconciliation but right now, I’ll take encouragements anywhere I can.

I’d love to hear your ideas on this.

Thanks for listening.

[Denver_2010]

You saw Denver's post and that's a good approach I think. But it requires a lot of patience. Look at his time line (and mine) to understand what we mean by reasonable timelines.

Like I said, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Hang in there.

I really like Denver's approach. I can relate to the way he feels about his sitch and how he personalizes and adapts DB to fit within these feelings and in harmony with what his heart tells him.
Thanks 25yearsMLC. I appreciate you not giving up on me. I can see how I must have sounded to you in my earlier posts. Thanks for turning the mirror on me.

You have to read Divorce Remedy to get an understanding of DB Arsene (Divorce Busting not as helpful). Be sure to get it and read it soon.

[25yearsmlc]

agreed....

there's too much guesswork in your approach b/c you think by reading stuff here that it'll all sink in.

It won't. We can help SUPPORT your DBing efforts but you have to "get" the fundamentals first, for us to support your efforts, and those are in the book. I recall a woman here posting for MONTHS and making so little progress in her efforts (mostly aimed at changing her partner)

and she'd quote OTHER books she read and talked about what THOSE books taught her...and never ever got the DB or Divorce Remedy book...and she's single for good now. Her last post sounded A LOT like her first one...

she Learned very little b/c she wanted it to come fast and easy and be super intuitive and she basically got lazy, or really wanted to "be right"...imo.

I know you are not lazy, but you are skipping THE main step.

Did you find Chapter one online here? You can.

And for God's sake, get the book mailed to you. I cannot imagine it being so difficult--you are in a land where they have internet and you have a mailing address right?

I mean I've been overseas in combat areas and I'm pretty sure I could have gotten the book by now.

Sorry to hammer you on this but you're taking a short cut in an area that needs a thorough understanding of the approach.

--------
OTherwise, most of what happened sounds good. Especially if you can find some reliable source of income.

As for your d, did you read my post? That advice came from our mc and he stressed that I should NOT say the word divorce unless I was 100% sure it was happening and even then, NOT too far in advance. IT's like a guillotine hanging over their heads.

IF and when the time comes, you give her a week or two to adjust and see what else the c says.

Honestly I think your d feels really unsettled right now --and I understand why. You ALL are living in boarding houses.

As a former military member and wife, w/17 moves w/children, I can tell you that is a chronic stresser that just depletes emotional resources.
It's literally and figuratively unsettling...24/7.

And her toys are all at other's homes?

That makes me sad. Get your d settled SOMEWHERE asap. talk happily about her having her own room, etc...what will she want to do with it if she can paint it or hang posters, etc.

Give her something to look forward to...and

get the book.

[Arsene]

Thanks Denver and 25,

I assure you that I'm not trying to take a shortcut by not getting DR, and that I'm doing all that is in my power to try and get it. I hope to be able to order it this weekend and I plan on making it an express delivery. Believe me when I tell you that courier doesn't make it here. Half of what's been sent from my family in my country hasn't made it here. Besides, I don't have a credit card (or an address) and have to rely on friends for that, and I have but I'm at their mercy time-wise.

I know the situation isn't the best, with all of us living in boarding houses but right now, I'm doing my best to play the cards I've been dealt. This happened during a transition stage and I didn't chose the timing. I realise (and I think W is starting to) that this was probably the worst time for us to go through this and now, with me not having a job, our savings are vanishing quite rapidly and this country doesn't have a safety net.

BTW, D8 does have some of her toys with her here but the bulk of them are still in boxes. I understand what effect this has on her and that is why I thought of just getting a house, any house, right now. W thinks we should wait at least until the end of september, because of the money situation but also because of the chance we might have at taking over the boarding house where I am. I am a bit torn but overall, I agree with her as long as we can make D8's life a bit better til then. W has voluntarily made the commitment to try and be here more often and I guess we'll try this approach for now.

Believe me! I am getting the book!!!

So you don't think there is anything wrong with my actions of yesterday? I hope not. It felt mostly good. I've had the first good night of sleep (6 hours) since I got back and I still feel good this morning.

Thanks again.

[Arsene]

Well, I guess I’m headed for another sleepless night for tonight. The incredible saga continues by the looks of it. Just once I’d like to hold on to something stable for more than a day.

To be honest, I think I f@#%&d up majorly today, not once but twice, and I feel terrible now. I really must get that DR book fast. I feel like I’m right in the middle of a mine field and I don’t know how to get out of it.

This is what happened today. W picked up D8 from school and got here around noon. After yesterday’s high, I was looking forward to it but promised myself to give her space and not crowd her. I knew that her and D8 were going to go with some of W’s friends for the afternoon and that in the evening, they’d planned to be back here for the night and spend the night together to help alleviate the separation anxiety that D8 seems to be going through.

First of all, on arrival, the mood was strange and W stayed in the common room and barely spoke a word. She seemed very distant and I matched that by keeping away. I was practicing my guitar so I just kept doing that but felt uncomfortable. I decided to text a friend to ask if something was up this evening so I wouldn’t have to be here and I could then give W and D8 some space. That’s when I did a stupid mistake. The kind of mistake I hear about all the time but think it’s so stupid that I don’t know how one can do this. I mistakenly sent the text to W. The text said.

Hi (friend), what’s up this evening? W is here with the kid and the mood is heavy. I need to get out.

W then called me in the common room and told me of my mistake. I felt like such an idiot. I apologized to her and didn’t quite know what else to do. To this, she asked me if I was ok. I said yes and went back to the room. She followed me in, closed the door and sat on the bed, near me and asked again if I was ok. To this, I said I was and she told me that I always say that I’m ok. I told her she says the same and we laughed a bit. Then she asked me if I wanted to talk and I told her that the same way I can’t be there for her when she might need to talk because I’m too involved in the situation, she can’t be there for me either because she is also too involved in the situation.

Then she said that maybe we should get a divorce. That it might make things better for me, for us. I asked her if she needed a divorce and she said that she didn’t. That it just would make things easier with others and that this shouldn’t matter anyway. I then gave her what I remembered of the “Denver” response.

I said that I didn’t want a divorce. I told her that if she wanted one, I would give it to her but that I was not going to help her get it. I said that I was still in love with her and that I still hoped we could reconcile in the future and work together on building a new relationship. I said that for now, I needed time to work on myself and that I understood she also needed time. I said that I would give her all the time and space she needs and that if one day she decided that she wanted to come back home, that she knew where she could find me.

To this she of course said that I didn’t have to do this. I said that I understood and that there was no pressure on her. That I had no expectations and that the reason I was doing this was to be the person I wanted to be. She knows about the parable of the candle in the sun and I told her that this “darkness” that entered my life was an opportunity for me to be, and show myself, who I wanted to be. I told her that I actually thanked her for making the choices that she made. That I understood it must have been difficult, still was difficult but that by doing this she gave me the opportunity to change who I was and to become a better man.

A lot of what was said next is still a bit blurry in my mind but I know she said I shouldn’t wait for her and that if I met someone else I should just move on. To this I replied that I wasn’t “waiting” for her. That I was moving forward with my life to become the best person I could be for me and for D8. I also told her that for the time being, I needed to be alone to figure myself out and do what I needed to do. That is what I need now.

At some point she also said that she felt stronger now and that she didn’t want to go back to the person she was. She said that she was through with trying to figure out what people mean when the say something and that she would stop second guessing herself. If people have secret agenda and try to push it on her by saying other things, she would simply accept what has been said at face value and not try to get to the underlying message. After that she made allusion to our discussion on finance and how it had made her feel. I told her I understood and I again apologized for it. I also thanked her for helping me to see this behavior of mine and that I needed to improve this.

She then talked about some of the changes she noticed in me and how she thought I was doing well. She said she thought I was on the right track.

At one point, there was talk about changing behavior and I used the example of the ready response we have for someone apologizing (Don’t worry about it) and I told her that when I had told her that after she had apologized on Wednesday I had felt it took away from the courage it had taken for her to approach me and say she was sorry. I told her that the way I really felt about it was appreciative and thankful.

To this she said: “What apology?’ and I had to gently remind her about the scene when she asked for a divorce and what she had said and how the following day she had come back all nice and said she was sorry for what she had said the previous day. For some reason, she seemed to have forgotten about it.

I then ended the discussion asking her if she had to go meet her friends with D8 and I left the house to get some parts to fix the washing machine.

All afternoon I felt horrible. I eventually met up with my friend and played some pool and had a few beers to try to get my mind off things but I just couldn’t shake myself. What it was, was not so much the R talk and how it came about but the coldness of W as she talked to me. I can see compassion in her eyes and I can hear concern in her voice but there is a certain determination in her manner that tells me that no matter what, she isn’t coming back. This ate at me all evening.

During the evening, I got a text from W saying that D8 decided to stay the night with her friend’s daughter so there would be no sleep-over tonight. I was a bit upset by that because I thought the idea was for them to spend as much time together as they could and even to spend the night together but now, D8 was on her own at W’s friend’s house. Nonetheless, I didn’t voice my disagreement and told her to do what she thought was best.

I left my friend’s house early and came back home and an hour later, W showed up unannounced to pick up the stuff she had brought over in prevision of spending the night. We had a nice chat and then? My second mistake. I just couldn’t help it and I flirted with her. I said well? You’re kidless and I’m kidless, how about we go for a cup of coffee? She hesitated but then said sure, why not?

We went to a nearby coffee stall where people sit on the ground (I always used to hate these) and W asked me if it was ok and I said it was. She said she looked forward to seeing me sit on the ground with my legs crossed to which I answered that I had gotten much more flexible since I started doing meditation. She watched me and was impressed. We had tea and invariably the conversation was brought on to my changes by W. Again, the whole thing is a bit blurry but some of the things which were talked about were about the fact that W thinks I’m being too hard on myself. She says I should try to relax a bit and enjoy life. I told her I was enjoying it as much as one could in my present situation and that perhaps I was being a bit hard on myself but I thought it was important because I didn’t want D8 to learn negative behaviours from my example. To this W agreed and said that this was 50% of the reason she did what she did a few months ago. To make sure D8 wouldn’t become the way she was. To this I wanted to tell her about D8’s advice to me a few days ago (if it’s too hard daddy, maybe you should give up. That’s what I do) but I didn’t, I simply said that kids often learn unexpected lessons from our behaviour . Later I realize I could have asked her what the other 50% was but again, I didn’t. Over all, I guess the conversation went well. She has noticed many changes in me and she told me that when D8 talks to others about me she has mentioned that I don’t get angry anymore. W said that she was impressed and that it was good. She said that she thought we were all doing great so that she thought this was the right choice. Again, that coldness and detachment as if we were lab rats being tested. I ended that meeting, said goodbye and left without looking back.

It’s hard for me to understand that she is so far removed from the situation and although I understand that she’s had much more time than me to get used to it, the fact that she kept saying how D8 was doing fine and that she would be just fine with all of this, and that we were both growing and becoming better individuals and that this was all good and justified her decision, makes me wonder if there is any hope left for us.

I also realize that this is not the main purpose of DBing but let’s face it, all of us would like a shot at a second chance with our S. In fact in the end, without the hope factor, how many of us would go through what we are going through to make ourselves better individuals?

I need to get that DR book soon. I feel so lost and I know that there is a different way to look at this but I can’t see it now. All I see is someone who looks at me like I could be her brother. There is some love, some caring but somehow, I fear I have lost her. What can I do?

Re-reading all of this (and rethinking about it) I also see that I lost my focus. I talked way too much and didn't keep the talk on her but actually used the opportunity to "show off" my "changes". I also started expecting stuff (what? that she would fall at my feet and say please take me back!!). I'm still to emotionally attached. I want her too much. I have to let her go. I just don't know how, and I'm afraid. Afraid to lose her, to lose my family, myself. Please, someone, I need some 2X4s here!!

Plans are made with friend with credit card. I'm ordering DR on Monday evening when she gets back in town.

[25yearsmlc]

Well, I guess I’m headed for another sleepless night for tonight. The incredible saga continues by the looks of it. Just once I’d like to hold on to something stable for more than a day.

To be honest, I think I f@#%&d up majorly today, not once but twice, and I feel terrible now. I really must get that DR book fast. I feel like I’m right in the middle of a mine field and I don’t know how to get out of it.


Remind yourself that it's highly unlikely that ONE act or comment will ruin a marriage. Relax a bit. Give yourself a break. We ask that You Not believe anything that she says, and only half of what she does...so, relax...you get a bit of the same break.


This is what happened today. W picked up D8 from school and got here around noon. After yesterday’s high, I was looking forward to it but promised myself to give her space and not crowd her. I knew that her and D8 were going to go with some of W’s friends for the afternoon and that in the evening, they’d planned to be back here for the night and spend the night together to help alleviate the separation anxiety that D8 seems to be going through.

First of all, on arrival, the mood was strange and W stayed in the common room and barely spoke a word. She seemed very distant and I matched that by keeping away. I was practicing my guitar so I just kept doing that but felt uncomfortable. I decided to text a friend to ask if something was up this evening so I wouldn’t have to be here and I could then give W and D8 some space. That’s when I did a stupid mistake. The kind of mistake I hear about all the time but think it’s so stupid that I don’t know how one can do this. I mistakenly sent the text to W. The text said.

Hi (friend), what’s up this evening? W is here with the kid and the mood is heavy. I need to get out.

W then called me in the common room and told me of my mistake. I felt like such an idiot. I apologized to her and didn’t quite know what else to do. To this, she asked me if I was ok. I said yes and went back to the room. She followed me in, closed the door and sat on the bed, near me and asked again if I was ok. To this, I said I was and she told me that I always say that I’m ok. I told her she says the same and we laughed a bit. Then she asked me if I wanted to talk and I told her that the same way I can’t be there for her when she might need to talk because I’m too involved in the situation, she can’t be there for me either because she is also too involved in the situation.

talk LESS...period. The book may help you with this but you say too much and you hyper analyze. it's not helping you

Take a breath...



Then she said that maybe we should get a divorce. That it might make things better for me, for us. I asked her if she needed a divorce and she said that she didn’t. That it just would make things easier with others and that this shouldn’t matter anyway. I then gave her what I remembered of the “Denver” response.

I said that I didn’t want a divorce. I told her that if she wanted one, I would give it to her but that I was not going to help her get it. I said that I was still in love with her and that I still hoped we could reconcile in the future and work together on building a new relationship. I said that for now, I needed time to work on myself and that I understood she also needed time. I said that I would give her all the time and space she needs and that if one day she decided that she wanted to come back home, that she knew where she could find me.

I still say you talk too much but then again, one comment won't make much difference at any point, generally.

My point is, someday she'll have to see she might lose you. At the moment she doesn't care b/c she doesn't know if your changes are real.

If she comes to believe they are, then we'll see...


To this she of course said that I didn’t have to do this. I said that I understood and that there was no pressure on her. That I had no expectations and that the reason I was doing this was to be the person I wanted to be. She knows about the parable of the candle in the sun and I told her that this “darkness” that entered my life was an opportunity for me to be, and show myself, who I wanted to be. I told her that I actually thanked her for making the choices that she made. That I understood it must have been difficult, still was difficult but that by doing this she gave me the opportunity to change who I was and to become a better man.

A lot of what was said next is still a bit blurry in my mind but I know she said I shouldn’t wait for her and that if I met someone else I should just move on. To this I replied that I wasn’t “waiting” for her. That I was moving forward with my life to become the best person I could be for me and for D8. I also told her that for the time being, I needed to be alone to figure myself out and do what I needed to do. That is what I need now.

At some point she also said that she felt stronger now and that she didn’t want to go back to the person she was. She said that she was through with trying to figure out what people mean when the say something and that she would stop second guessing herself. If people have secret agenda and try to push it on her by saying other things, she would simply accept what has been said at face value and not try to get to the underlying message. After that she made allusion to our discussion on finance and how it had made her feel. I told her I understood and I again apologized for it. I also thanked her for helping me to see this behavior of mine and that I needed to improve this.

I don't know what she's referring to so I can't comment.




She then talked about some of the changes she noticed in me and how she thought I was doing well. She said she thought I was on the right track.


Great. Do NOT say much about this except that the changes are for YOU and that you are glad to be making them b/c they are the real you- the more "authentic you" etc...nothing about being happy SHE noticed.

NOT about her...got it?

At one point, there was talk about changing behavior and I used the example of the ready response we have for someone apologizing (Don’t worry about it) and I told her that when I had told her that after she had apologized on Wednesday I had felt it took away from the courage it had taken for her to approach me and say she was sorry. I told her that the way I really felt about it was appreciative and thankful.

To this she said: “What apology?’ and I had to gently remind her about the scene when she asked for a divorce and what she had said and how the following day she had come back all nice and said she was sorry for what she had said the previous day. For some reason, she seemed to have forgotten about it.


You were talking too much...period...okay? Do you see that? So learn to STFU b/c sometimes the most loving thing to say is nothing.


I then ended the discussion asking her if she had to go meet her friends with D8 and I left the house to get some parts to fix the washing machine.

All afternoon I felt horrible. I eventually met up with my friend and played some pool and had a few beers to try to get my mind off things but I just couldn’t shake myself. What it was, was not so much the R talk and how it came about but the coldness of W as she talked to me. I can see compassion in her eyes and I can hear concern in her voice but there is a certain determination in her manner that tells me that no matter what, she isn’t coming back. This ate at me all evening.

Stop the analysis b/c you'll begin to have paralysis...

During the evening, I got a text from W saying that D8 decided to stay the night with her friend’s daughter so there would be no sleep-over tonight. I was a bit upset by that because I thought the idea was for them to spend as much time together as they could and even to spend the night together but now, D8 was on her own at W’s friend’s house. Nonetheless, I didn’t voice my disagreement and told her to do what she thought was best.


Stop having so many mind reading assumptions that set her up for failure. Your d8 was not "on her own" at some adults house, was she? really?

Come on. Relax. take the spotlight OFF your w and put it back on YOU and what you can control...

I left my friend’s house early and came back home and an hour later, W showed up unannounced to pick up the stuff she had brought over in prevision of spending the night. We had a nice chat and then? My second mistake. I just couldn’t help it and I flirted with her. I said well? You’re kidless and I’m kidless, how about we go for a cup of coffee? She hesitated but then said sure, why not?


Okay and you did this b/c...you were needy? I mean at SOME points it's fine to flirt--- but now? Not so fine.

This was literally hours after her repeated request for a divorce...so, Read the book.

We went to a nearby coffee stall where people sit on the ground (I always used to hate these) and W asked me if it was ok and I said it was.


Were you sulking? Whyd' she ask you SO MANY times if you were "okay"? Stop radiating your needs. That makes it all about YOU and you not meeting your own needs.

What is new about that?




She said she looked forward to seeing me sit on the ground with my legs crossed to which I answered that I had gotten much more flexible since I started doing meditation. She watched me and was impressed. We had tea and invariably the conversation was brought on to my changes by W. Again, the whole thing is a bit blurry but some of the things which were talked about were about the fact that W thinks I’m being too hard on myself. She says I should try to relax a bit and enjoy life.

valuable feedback...take it in and process it. People who are hard on themeslves are NOT easy on others.

I told her I was enjoying it as much as one could in my present situation and that perhaps I was being a bit hard on myself but I thought it was important because I didn’t want D8 to learn negative behaviours from my example.

isn't your d learning negatives if you sulk or get down on yourself too much and switch your cricitsm from them, to yourself, instead of simply NOT being negative?



To this W agreed and said that this was 50% of the reason she did what she did a few months ago. To make sure D8 wouldn’t become the way she was.


your d would become the way YOU were or the way your wife was? What and who does that mean?


To this I wanted to tell her about D8’s advice to me a few days ago (if it’s too hard daddy, maybe you should give up. That’s what I do) but I didn’t, I simply said that kids often learn unexpected lessons from our behaviour . Later I realize I could have asked her what the other 50% was but again, I didn’t. Over all, I guess the conversation went well.

She has noticed many changes in me and she told me that when D8 talks to others about me she has mentioned that I don’t get angry anymore. W said that she was impressed and that it was good. She said that she thought we were all doing great so that she thought this was the right choice.

meaning, it took THIS to get the changes in you. So? That's NOT bad. Don't mind read negatively so much.

The point isn't lost on her that if you do make the changes, then her "mission" worked and maybe she can come home.


Again, that coldness and detachment as if we were lab rats being tested. I ended that meeting, said goodbye and left without looking back.

It’s hard for me to understand that she is so far removed from the situation and although I understand that she’s had much more time than me to get used to it, the fact that she kept saying how D8 was doing fine and that she would be just fine with all of this, and that we were both growing and becoming better individuals and that this was all good and justified her decision, makes me wonder if there is any hope left for us.

what do you believe your options are?

being miserable and needy and clinging IS NOT MORE attractive. for all we know, she's testing you. And besides she has not mentioned how SHE is doing with all this.


I also realize that this is not the main purpose of DBing but let’s face it, all of us would like a shot at a second chance with our S. In fact in the end, without the hope factor, how many of us would go through what we are going through to make ourselves better individuals?

I like to think all of us.

I need to get that DR book soon. I feel so lost and I know that there is a different way to look at this but I can’t see it now. All I see is someone who looks at me like I could be her brother. There is some love, some caring but somehow, I fear I have lost her. What can I do?

Re-reading all of this (and rethinking about it) I also see that I lost my focus. I talked way too much and didn't keep the talk on her but actually used the opportunity to "show off" my "changes".

YES you did.


I also started expecting stuff (what? that she would fall at my feet and say please take me back!!). I'm still to emotionally attached. I want her too much. I have to let her go. I just don't know how, and I'm afraid. Afraid to lose her, to lose my family, myself. Please, someone, I need some 2X4s here!!

Plans are made with friend with credit card. I'm ordering DR on Monday evening when she gets back in town.

Get the book and let us know what you think.

And take a breath and focus on your d and your work and getting your finances in order. Period.

More later.

[Arsene]

What a loaded weekend this has been.

25yearsMLC, thanks for dropping by, and thanks for your comments. I am listening if not always acting on it.

I now realise I need to relax big time. I'm feeling stressed and needy as you said. I need to work harder on GAL and hopefully that will help me relax a bit and give myself a break. Up to now, most of my efforts went on 180s and it looks like what I've done so far has been noticed. Now I need to make sure I stick with it and maintain the changes. Frankly, I feel good about them and yes I am a bit hard on myself but I don't want to be that other person anymore. I like who I'm slowly becoming.

I really hope I get the DR book fast. I'm sure it will help a lot. I've read the first chapter and a summary of the steps and it sounds very interesting.

Now, to carry on with my weekend, just tonight, W got back with D8 quite late and although I was a bit cross, I didn’t say anything and acted “as if” all was fine. I kept my passive aggressive behavior in check and received them happily with good humour and fun.

After D8 was in bed, W left the room and asked me to follow so I did. In the living room, she sat on the sofa and I joined her there. She then began to talk, and I listened (yes I know, kind of a 180 for me, isn’t it?).

She talked about many things and again mentioned how I looked happy. She said that she tells her friends that I seem much happier now. She even commented on my smile, saying that it was the smile of the “me” she met back then. She was glad I was becoming a better person and that she noticed that even D8 seemed much more relaxed around me.

She then talked about the past. About how she used to be afraid to come in the house when she got back from work, in the night. How she would stay in the car until the mosquitoes would drive her in. She said she didn’t know why, she just didn’t look forward to being back in my presence. She talked about how one day I got yelling at some other driver in traffic and how she observed the scene wondering who this man next to her was. She said that she probably should have said something but that she didn’t have the confidence to do so. That she just wanted to keep the peace. Then she broke down in tears and I took her hand and put my arm around her. She cried a bit and then I pulled back, our hand still in each other’s.

We talked a bit about the city where we lived when D8 was born and how this event probably started me on my anger journey. She’d told me in the past that she had resented me back then for being more distant, a thing that I didn’t remember. Now, she got into how she felt alone after the birth, how she felt inadequate and unattractive and how she carried the weight of parenthood by herself. She said she wished I had been more involved in taking care of D8. I thought I had been but nonetheless, I validated and told her I understood how she might have felt that. We both agreed that there should be education on such things in high school.

Other things she mentioned were about never being in control. She felt that she was again keeping the peace by simply agreeing to whatever was on the table. She felt that I resented her for not working (a real job) and bringing home an income. She quoted something I had apparently said in a situation where I told her that I had to go to work every day to provide for us and that all I was asking her to do was to support me when I had a bad day. I told her I didn’t remember the event but that I’m sure that at times I might have said something like that or even show resentment but I assured her that I never actually felt that way. I said that I understood how she felt but that I felt that I had always supported her in her music. That I never wanted her to have to work a job for the local salary when she could be working on her music. I also said that it had always been important to me that she did what she wanted and that although my words, at times, didn’t support that, I believed my actions had always supported that. She agreed that I had supported her and respected her choices that way.

She said that she didn’t know how to behave/react while I was going through my depression (neither of us knew I was going through a depression at the time), and that she wished she had talked to me then.

She said that she was beginning to feel more confident and that she felt happy at the moment, especially that I seemed to be happy as well. She said that we were all going through a process. That sometimes, she hears her girlfriends talk about their marital problems and asks herself why people bother going through that? I told her that maybe there is a balance and you accept the bad so you can get at the good. She agreed but still wonder what the point was.

It was a good talk, with laughter and smiles, eye contact, reminiscing and an overall good feeling for both of us. I kept my mouth shut for the most and validated her feelings whenever I could. We didn’t talk about the future but the eye contact and the smiles were encouraging. Nonetheless, I’m quite sure I’m in for a long journey as she mentioned at one point that she didn’t know where her self-esteem issues stemmed from but that she was slowly resolving them. But it’ll take some time, she said.
I’m thankful for this evening. I have a feeling that we can become friends again.

And most importantly, I managed to STFU, most of the time.

Thanks again 25yearsMLC, I had just read your reply before this happened so the advice was fresh. I'll focus on that in future convos.

[25yearsmlc]

What a loaded weekend this has been.

25yearsMLC, thanks for dropping by, and thanks for your comments. I am listening if not always acting on it.

I now realise I need to relax big time. I'm feeling stressed and needy as you said. I need to work harder on GAL and hopefully that will help me relax a bit and give myself a break.

it WILL help you to GAL. That's why we hammer it so much. It will relax you and take your mind off your situation 24/7 and you'll be able to let new things and new changes in you SINK IN....



Up to now, most of my efforts went on 180s and it looks like what I've done so far has been noticed. Now I need to make sure I stick with it and maintain the changes. Frankly, I feel good about them and yes I am a bit hard on myself but I don't want to be that other person anymore. I like who I'm slowly becoming.

Simply point it out NO MORE. IF anyone says anything you can be a tad surprised and say "Really? Well that's good b/c I've wanted to work on that for a while now..." AND IF it's your wife saying it, make it a SMALL thank you and change the topic of just STFU


I really hope I get the DR book fast. I'm sure it will help a lot. I've read the first chapter and a summary of the steps and it sounds very interesting.

Now, to carry on with my weekend, just tonight, W got back with D8 quite late and although I was a bit cross, I didn’t say anything and acted “as if” all was fine. I kept my passive aggressive behavior in check and received them happily with good humour and fun. Why would you be "Cross" anyhow? Examine that seemingly natural urge of yours. IT happens too much.

Your w is an adult and when d is with her, WIFE decides the activities. Unless they are literally dangerous things to do,why do you get to have an opinion on their activity or return time?

Maybe IF d8 has school EARLY in the morning then maybe it wasn't even intentional & they were simply late....but that's the only thing I can of mattering...

After D8 was in bed, W left the room and asked me to follow so I did. In the living room, she sat on the sofa and I joined her there. She then began to talk, and I listened (yes I know, kind of a 180 for me, isn’t it?).

another 180 would be to NOT talk. Have too much to do (GAL) and be too busy for another "Session" in which she shares all her thoughts at the moment/second and then you spend hours or days analyzing them. Be warm and polite but post pone or avoid all these endless talks.

A phrase you'll hear A LOT here, is

"Believe none of what they say and only half of what they DO."

THe constant temperature taking is NOT helping YOU.

She talked about many things and again mentioned how I looked happy. She said that she tells her friends that I seem much happier now. She even commented on my smile, saying that it was the smile of the “me” she met back then. She was glad I was becoming a better person and that she noticed that even D8 seemed much more relaxed around me.

this^^^ seems unecessary to keep saying. Are you asking her (indirectly or even non verbally) for some sort of feedback? That will come across as NEEDY and that cannot happen right now.

Assuming you are NOT asking for the feedback and she just keeps on giving it,
don't make it all bad. It might mean she's really noticing and wondering...

To you- it may SEEM like she's using your changes against you but it's not true. She may tell herself it "proves" she was right to leave (b/c you're FINALLY a new man--but would acting obnoxious make her feel "wrong" to leave? NO!)

AND 1) she'll wonder if leaving was really necessary or at least if staying away is necessary b/c after all, you are becoming a man only a fool would leave now...and

2) really Arsene, the alternatives to the changes you are making are-- what?

You losing your temper more, chewing her out for being so selfish, criticizing or belittling her or your d, or random cab drivers, or being so clingy and needy and pleading (pathetic)-

all those things are far worse and MUCH LESS ATTRACTIVE (as in, not at all attractive, as in repelling)...so that's out anyhow.

Also, maybe she is testing the so called changes which have been how long now? A month? A week? IT's a drop in the bucket for now.

3) as I like to say, "do the math"...

Small consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in.




She then talked about the past. About how she used to be afraid to come in the house when she got back from work, in the night. How she would stay in the car until the mosquitoes would drive her in. She said she didn’t know why, she just didn’t look forward to being back in my presence. She talked about how one day I got yelling at some other driver in traffic and how she observed the scene wondering who this man next to her was. She said that she probably should have said something but that she didn’t have the confidence to do so. That she just wanted to keep the peace. Then she broke down in tears and I took her hand and put my arm around her. She cried a bit and then I pulled back, our hand still in each other’s.


other than gaining insights into how miserable she was and how intimidating or demeaning you were to her, most of this is simply water under the bridge.

While I see value in you showing that you now CAN LISTEN & HEAR her...and that the new you would NOT do that bad thing again OR had no idea it was happening, and that you CARE about hurting her...

Learn to adopt 2 phrases that don't allow for negative spiralling but that validate, do Not escalate, AND show change on your end. For when she goes over the marital history-
FIRST-

1) When she brings up something 'real' from the past like an event hurt her & for which you feel at least partly responsible (or totally) responsible for hurting her, say

"W, I'm so sorry that hurt you. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

2) if she recalls an event you have NO recall of, OR a very different recall of, you do not deny it, you say
"Wow, I sure don't remember it that way, but I'm sorry if you were hurt...

(And if need be, depending on the situation, ADD)

and If anything like that happened now, I'd handle it differently."


Then move the topic along. Learn those^^^ phrases by heart. They will help you without making you feel like doormat and without making it worse and hopefully remind her that things indeed would be different.

Never forget your real goal is that she return and she'll ONLY RETURN if she believes marriage to you could be better/different than before.

Sure, it might still be too late. But it's your best chance of a recon. And if the only reason you are changing is to get her back - which is a tactic and not a change, it'll fail. And it'll be harder than ever to get her to believe in any real changes in the future.

She has a long grievance list of your transgressions that she has held in a long time. She never felt safe in sharing them with you. So now being able to, is a good sign.

BUT beware.

The only point of her grievance list is to vent and explain AND if you get something out of it (like a recon mission where you insights from her as to what she needs that she wasn't getting from you, FINE.)

And if you needed to practice just listening, FINE, do it. If an apology is required of you, GIVE IT..note, they don't recall the apologies as well as the insults/hurts so it usually requires repetition at first. But you will get to a point (NOT NOW by a long shot)

in which no more apologies are going to help you & might be counter productive. IF you get a chance to read Crimson's thread, you'll see what I mean.

You already realize she forgot her "apology" to you, and for some unknown reason you brought it up. She had forgotten it (or did not see it as an apology), and then YOU REMINDED her of it...which meant you were reminding her of her admission of fault...and how generously YOU see yourself for being forgiving --which is the opposite of the effect it probably had on her...

NOTE TO SELF: don't herald or highlight behavior that most people consider just normal courtesy.

Plus once you saw that she had forgotten it, you needed to drop that (or not bring it up at all.)



We talked a bit about the city where we lived when D8 was born and how this event probably started me on my anger journey. She’d told me in the past that she had resented me back then for being more distant, a thing that I didn’t remember. Now, she got into how she felt alone after the birth, how she felt inadequate and unattractive and how she carried the weight of parenthood by herself. She said she wished I had been more involved in taking care of D8. I thought I had been but nonetheless, I validated and told her I understood how she might have felt that. We both agreed that there should be education on such things in high school.

Other things she mentioned were about never being in control. She felt that she was again keeping the peace by simply agreeing to whatever was on the table.

doesn't this^^^ all pretty much resonate with you as being valid? Doing lessons with your d isn't the hard or most meaninful part of parenting.As I recall that was your "activity" or interaction w/her til recently.

So it means you are on the right track about the changes you are making, correct?



She felt that I resented her for not working (a real job) and bringing home an income. She quoted something I had apparently said in a situation where I told her that I had to go to work every day to provide for us and that all I was asking her to do was to support me when I had a bad day.

did you want her to earn more or not? Did you want her to stay at home w/d8 or not? Is all this her fears talking?

as for you having a bad day at work, versus her being a SAHM, I have to tell you I've done both. I PREFER going to work (though I don't regret the time with our children) at least part time -where I get pats on the back and bonuses and respect

over being home all day with one child. ESPECIALLY if my h came home and instead of giving ME a break from nonstop child care, expects ME to "support him after a bad day" (which =he is having a bad MOOD and I have to put up with it AND he probably does not care or ask about MY day and it does not occur to him to give ME support after a bad day)...he wants me to just TAKE his bad mood and lashing out

b/c that's what a supportive partner does??? Hmmm, not sure I buy that. Do you?


I told her I didn’t remember the event but that I’m sure that at times I might have said something like that or even show resentment but I assured her that I never actually felt that way.

what did you resent? And if you never actually felt that way, why'd you have resentment? I'm not clear here. Did you simply have a lousy negative attitude on things and take it out on the loved ones closest to you?

You wouldn't be the first, but I'm simply not clear on this statement.



I said that I understood how she felt but that I felt that I had always supported her in her music. That I never wanted her to have to work a job for the local salary when she could be working on her music.

You are arguing^^^ with her MEMORIES. STFU. "Listen without defending. Speak without offending."

I also said that it had always been important to me that she did what she wanted and that although my words, at times, didn’t support that, I believed my actions had always supported that. She agreed that I had supported her and respected her choices that way.

so she did a complete 180 in her opinion, OR you bullied her into agreeing or what?

She said that she didn’t know how to behave/react while I was going through my depression (neither of us knew I was going through a depression at the time), and that she wished she had talked to me then.

would it have made any difference to you to have her tell you, then? Be honest. Would it? Would you have said "OMG I need help" and gotten it?

And when you say "depression" does that mean you got treatment for it?

And when you say "depression" is that the whole negative critical outbursts chronically happening?


She said that she was beginning to feel more confident and that she felt happy at the moment, especially that I seemed to be happy as well. She said that we were all going through a process. That sometimes, she hears her girlfriends talk about their marital problems and asks herself why people bother going through that? I told her that maybe there is a balance and you accept the bad so you can get at the good. She agreed but still wonder what the point was.

"She agreed BUT wonder what the point was" THAT is "NOT" agreeing....this is you arguing your case, again. Stop it. Did you get the 37/40 rules for newbies yet? I can't recall but at least live by THEM until you get the books...

It was a good talk, with laughter and smiles, eye contact, reminiscing and an overall good feeling for both of us. I kept my mouth shut for the most and validated her feelings whenever I could. We didn’t talk about the future but the eye contact and the smiles were encouraging. Nonetheless, I’m quite sure I’m in for a long journey as she mentioned at one point that she didn’t know where her self-esteem issues stemmed from but that she was slowly resolving them. But it’ll take some time, she said.
I’m thankful for this evening. I have a feeling that we can become friends again.

And most importantly, I managed to STFU, most of the time.

Thanks again 25yearsMLC, I had just read your reply before this happened so the advice was fresh. I'll focus on that in future convos.

Okay remember mostly that this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Don't take the temperature of the marriage so much. Like only once a month. Set it as a goal. OR "have a conversation with w that does NOT include me defending myself or explaining myself"...that could be a short term goal.
Along with "have fun w/D8 and do not tell w about it unless she asks and then be vague, lest she think I'm using d8 as a tool to get her back".

Your w will hear from d8 how much fun you two had. Let her hear it from HER, not you.

Make sense?

I'll post the "Rules for Newbies" next, so you can read them for now.

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

These are "Rules" for newcomers assembled/organized by Sandi, consisting of principles based on MWD's Div Busting approach, (& edited SLIGHTLY by yours truly). I recommend you copy and paste & print it out. Carry it in your pocket if you have to. I know I did.

FOR WHEN YOU GET "THE BOMB"….

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then, don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.) In short, No Snooping.

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne/perfume, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, join something, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, do 180s… (so if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her to initiate), then be rather scarce or minimal with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short & simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! (No matter what time he/she comes home.) You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy YOUR life and time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life too.

17. ***You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.***

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it. The supposed changes will look like "tactics" to get them back & then they won't believe the changes are lasting.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive & fun to be with. (As hard as this is, remember that angry, sad, pouting people do NOT ATTRACT others to them). The FUN somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Never lose your temper! (That reinforces their choice to leave). Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill or be over the top in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient……VERY, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels like the opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do NOT interrupt them when they are speaking, OR correct them, and stop what you may be working on or doing, to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying. (Listening better never hurts.)

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell). Silence can be the loving thing to "not say."

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Calmness is soothing to the calm person AND their "audience". Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only, NOT your spouse. The more you tell them what you are doing (or trying to show them) the more your actions will seem manipulative & insincere.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write or a single dramatic gesture. (Not saying not to do/say those too, but focus on consistent changes, over time. That earns the spouse's belief in the changes).

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever, & even when you truly feel desperate & needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse. Very important that you get this concept.

31. When you communicate with your spouse, do not focus on yourself; instead, focus on them. If in person, make eye contact.

32. Do not believe any of what THEY SAY and less than 50% of what THEY DO. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared, AND OR, b/c they want to justify their leaving.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes! Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day, unless absolutely necessary. (That means only in urgent matters.)

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Do Not convince yourself that being miserable or sad shows how much you care for your spouse. It's not attractive or appealing, period.

39. If there is OW/OM in the picture, don't focus on them. BE the better choice, which means being a spouse only a fool would leave.

40. Know that you really will be alright in the long run, that your personal work will yield good things regardless of the choices others make. You will be happy again.

[~ kd ~]

41. NO EXPECTATIONS of outcome, one way, or the other.