Should I initiate R talk?

[Arsene]

I think W wanted to take your temperature by making that statement. I am sure you will get mixed views from people on this board in regards to addressing W’s statement.

We all handle things differently and sometimes I F&^% up if I am thrown off guard. I probably would have simply said “point taken”. I know it’s water under the bridge so I don’t know why I am even bringing it up. Maybe because I think it’s a good idea to keep W guessing. You don’t make her “wonder” as much when you make a statement like that. By no means am I suggesting to start dating again. I know your response is truly how you feel however the fact is and I know you are aware of this, there’s some “gamesmanship that’s required”.

In regards to my own sitch, part of me thinks, whatever!!! I guess that’s my “as if” attitude however I think I genuinely feel that way. At the same time my sitch just consumes me like no other!! I know, I am contradicting myself. Don’t get me wrong, I do care, I won’t give up and I am going to do the hard work necessary and I know you are to. Take care!

Rough

Hey Rough,

Thanks for your words. I totally understand what you say about "keeping her guessing" and the effect it might have on her.

The thing is, that's kind of what I had been doing and I think it could be a reason why she would have acted so insensitively on that Saturday evening, when she got ready for her date in front of me. Kind of giving me a taste of my own medicine.

I also think that my "dark/dim" attitude, which was mainly to protect myself from emotional pain and to help me detach, could have been the catalyst for her request for divorce on the grounds that she didn't know how to act when I'm around, that we weren't even friends anymore and that we were incompatible.

One of the things which is repeated over and over again in this site is "Do what works" and this approach didn't work.

Thus, in a way, I went the Denver route and opted for honesty and openness, figuring I had nothing to lose at this point. I'm not saying that I will not remain mysterious in some ways but I think that in this comment (along with my previous comment about not wanting a divorce) I also made my stand quite clear without showing myself as a doormat (at least I hope). I also think it shows a certain strength of character and integrity.

I realize as well that there is gamesmanship required and that in a way, it's like a game of chess and that we are constantly walking on eggshells but like in chess sometimes it's necessary to lose a pawn in order to place yourself in a better strategic position. I'm choosing my battles and in this case I think I did the right move.

Is your "as if" working for you? If the "I don't care" attitude makes your W wonder and think about you that might be good, but I think that in my case, this would push her away. I don't know. It's just that right now, I feel a lot better with showing care and concern as well as preserving the friendship. We once were (and I think still are deep inside) the best of friends. May be that's why it hurts so much because I'm losing my wife, my family, my best friend, my band mate, my confident and all of that in one go. The thing is, so is she and this is good in a way.

I know how you feel about your sitch mate, there is not a moment of the day I don't have it in the forefront of my mind. It's exhausting and it made the last two weeks since i got back (yup, only two weeks) feel like I've been at this for years. I only hope it does get easier to deal with, but again, I am determined to see this thing through because I believe in my W and I know that if she stays close enough, for long enough, we still have a chance at a life together. I also accept that there are no guarantees but at this point, I'm still naive enough to keep hope.

Take care of yourself my friend. Stay strong.

[roughenough]

Hi Arsene-
I know it’s not funny but I had to chuckle when you mentioned the OM was a drummer. In my sitch I can’t confirm OM however I feel there’s a high probability it’s with a drummer in a local band. I know MrBond, (mindreading). Gotta watch out for those damn drummers!! I hope your not a drummer

Anyway, your spot on, gotta do what works. The following comment you made really got me thinking.

“I know that if she stays close enough, for long enough, we still have a chance at a life together.”

It made me think, wow, maybe I shouldn’t be so “matter of fact” with W. Your right, every sitch is different and do what works. I am matter of fact because in our relationship I was a begger, pleader, pursuer, needy, the list goes on, so it’s a 180 for me.

I want nothing but the best for you, I hope you can work towards reconciliation. I vividly remember vets that recently reconciled on this board totally let go, moved on with life, almost to the point of throwing in the towel, total detach, etc….Maybe those aren’t the exact words to use, but I am sure you get my point. For some reason they had to get to that point before things turned around. Like you said, I don’t know

Any updates since the noodle dinner?
Take care of yourself as well.

Rough

[Arsene]

Originally Posted By: Arsene
BTW, while I'm at it. I also find it interesting that she asked me if i was seeing an good female friend of mine romantically (actually the girl who encouraged me to make my move on W 10 year ago).

I told her no and she told me that it would be ok for me to date. I told her that I had no interest in it and that I didn't need it.

What do you make of that?


Not sure what to make of it. WHEN did she say this? During the prior divorce talk or later on when she came over and apologized? I think that's relevant.

She may realize the inherent one sided nature of her choice and wants to feel fair by saying you are free to date. But I am not sure what the context was.


She said it just after apologizing and it came out as just a "by the way" comment.

Also, not to nitpick but when she apologizes listen to her carefully and don't think you are being generous by saying not to worry about it...

it sort of negates her apology. Plus it DID hurt you. Maybe she deserves "credit" or accountability for owning that.

Not sure if I'm being clear enough on that but when someone apologizes I think in our attempt to be non confrontational, we brush it off. Maybe it's better to say "thanks, It means a lot to hear you say that."

Plus you might have learned more about what she was apologizing for.
Was it an apology for the truth hurting you

or a retraction of some or all of it?


I think you are right, in fact, as I was telling her not to worry about it, it felt wrong and dismissive, but I was so taken by surprise that I found myself at a loss for words and spurted out the "reflex" answer for such a situation. I'll make sure to keep this in mind if ever she apologizes again and try to change my "reflex" answer for this kind of situation.

I'm thinking now about perhaps telling her later that I appreciate the fact that she did apologize but I'm not sure of the wisdom behind that as it might re-open R talks and for the moment, I would rather keep things the way they are.

Your interactions with d8 are excellent. Maybe there will come a time when you thank your wife for being the catalyst for the changes you are making.


I am already thankful. I think that to do what she did, in our present cultural context, must have taken a lot of strength and courage. It's just hard to remember this on a daily basis, especially with OM in the picture, but I know that I probably wouldn't have put in this amount of work if she had just spoken to me.

I say that so that she realizes you are growing too, and maybe she'll see you as being on the same team. That also happens with good co-parenting.

And the more she sees you as being on the same "side", the better the chance of growing from there. Love is at least partly a choice.

Love is not just a noun. Love is also an ACTION verb, (requiring action on our part)

and we have to choose to love, on a daily basis. Sometimes our partners' don't behave in a way that feels lovable to us but we have to choose to love them anyhow. I don't mean to say that being a doormat is "unconditional love" b/c if my partner were consistently mistreating me, I'd eventually leave the relationship.

My point is that love isn't just a "feeling" that lands on us or falls off like branches on a tree. Sometimes I think WASs forget that love is a choice.


I hear you loud and clear. It's too bad that there isn't a manual on how to love. All those years I thought I was doing the right thing and loving her the right way but now I realize that my attitude was misguided and I see how this contributed to my present sitch. thanks so much for keeping me on my toes 25yearsMLC. It really hurts to see what I've done and how I've behaved, but it also hurts because I know that at some point, my W will probably go through this self realization and suffer the way I do now. I don't wish that on her.

Keep up the great interactions with your d and be the best dad you can be.

Your d needs you both & right now you are her rock. Where is your w living right now?


She's living in a boarding house downtown but she'll be moving to one closer to where we are in a week or so.

What are your job options? Can you move to the more touristy city? I mean it sounds as if your w had some good ideas to help the financial situation.

Do you have any plans on that topic? Being a good provider, sexist as this is, is attractive to women.

A study on marriage--- (I think this was a western study but maybe it was global. I don't know)--

revealed the two traits most important in spouses and showed some interesting findings.

For men, the two traits most important were that they found their wives physically attractive and that they wanted "peace in the home" which was interpreted as meaning no nagging or criticism.

Women said the two most important traits were security, (meaning that they felt safe physically--their h would protect them--and financially--the "shelter" was secure

and fidelity, which is pretty self explanatory.

But that reminds me of the "caveman" theory that my feminist friends only admit to in private.

It's that at some biological level, women can go back to the stone age and find that we want to feel safe in our cave when our hunter mate goes out.

We find ourselves most attracted to the man most likely to bring home the meat...and to know that if a saber tooth tiger tried to enter the cave, the man would fight it off or build something to block dangerous animals from entering. So the "security" factor is mulit-dimensional.

Particularly when there are children, I think it's crucial that a woman feels safe financially and physically. So maybe getting a job that provides some security would help all of you...??

D8 just started school so we are here at least for a year. i could move away to get work and leave D8 with my W, but I don't think it would be a good idea at this time. Besides, I promise D8 that I would not leave her and she occasionally reminds me of my promise.

My options vary but mainly , I can go back to teaching. I've been to a few places recently and the time of year isn't right (it's the holy month of Ramadan) however, I'm fairly confident that I will find something within a month or so.

I also realize that no matter what, my W also wants what's best for D8 and she would value the fact that I can provide financially. She really enjoyed my cooking last night and somehow, I think she probably misses having a home as well.

Boarding houses in this country go for about 30 USD per month and are little more than a walk-in closet with a mattress on the floor. I'm sure that the "gipsy" side of her is enjoying it for the moment but I also think that coming to visit her daughter in a nice family home with home cooking and D8's drawings on the fridge will have a positive impact on her.

She did have many ideas about ways to make a bit of money on the side and we discussed these (mostly cottage industry stuff), almost as if we were a family/team. I'm not reading too much into it but trying a venture within the local community would also help me accomplish a few of my 180s, which are to try to understand the local culture as well as the language.


Regardless, when you asked about the legal side of things, knowledge is power. Find out what your rights are as a non citizen, if that's applicable. For instance, I happen to know in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi citizen gets custody regardless of gender...

Find out your legal rights, get some financial security and be the best dad you can be and best man you can be.

Yes. This is what I'm going to do.

Did I read it correctly that you have NOT read the Div Busting or Divorce Remedy books? You have to read it (I prefer the second one b/c it's the most recent) so you can really "get" what we are saying. This is a solution based approach to marital problems - which is one reason all the analysis can be counter productive. Same for re=hashing the past...


but if you don't read the book, it looks half hearted to me. The book Is also going to help you change in concrete ways, and that's a big deal.

You are right, I haven't read it yet. I'm trying to get it now. Amazone does deliver in this country but I need to use a friend's credit card so for the time being it's a long process, but 'm on it. hopefully I can order it this weekend. Believe me that there is nothing half-hearted about what I'm doing and am willing to do to change myself and hopefully save my family.

if your wife believes the changes are real, that you are a crucial loving part of your d's life she won't want to remove, that you are a man only a fool would leave, that you offer security and a safe future, it's hard to believe she won't reconsider her choices...

I understand what you are saying. A thing which might be going for me is that her female friends already agree with this and think that she is making a mistake by leaving me. She told me that she doesn't talk to them about this anymore because she says they don't understand. I think a lot of people are routing for me in this, including her sister. I'm not sure it's really a good thing, though because no one like to be told what to do. Before you ask, no, I didn't not contact her family or her friends and do not intend to.

but as stated elsewhere, don't argue with her about the choices. She'll defend the choices, instead of examining them.

Yes, I've noted that. Patience is the word. She has to look at these choices she made at her own pace. For all I know, these choices are/will be the right ones for her and if that's what it is, I'll have to be able to accept that.

You saw Denver's post and that's a good approach I think. But it requires a lot of patience. Look at his time line (and mine) to understand what we mean by reasonable timelines.

Like I said, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Hang in there.

I really like Denver's approach. I can relate to the way he feels about his sitch and how he personalizes and adapts DB to fit within these feelings and in harmony with what his heart tells him.
Thanks 25yearsMLC. I appreciate you not giving up on me. I can see how I must have sounded to you in my earlier posts. Thanks for turning the mirror on me.

[Arsene]

This is mad. After such a high yesterday I feel so miserable today. There should be no reasons why today is worse than yesterday but for some reasons, OM is on my mind and I can't seem to shake him. I replay our evening of yesterday and I can just see her, laying in bed next to D8, looking so beautiful and then, it's like OM comes from out of no where and teases me and I push him out of my thought but her just comes back.

I thought I was ok, but I'm not. How do I move on from this stage? How do I live with the knowledge that the woman I love more than life itself is in the arms of an OM. And then I get angry! I ask myself, how can she do this? How can she believe that this is going to help her find herself?

When she asked me if I was seeing someone else, I should have told her that no, I wasn't. That I had no interest because in order to find myself, to be able to find happiness within myself, I need to make sure I don't jump in the arms of someone else, and find happiness there. That this is crucial to a personal search. It must be done alone. It's like an alcoholic replacing whiskey for beer. He's still drinking. He's not healing and he's just lying to himself when he says that there isn't as much alcohol in it so it's not the same thing.

I wonder if she realizes this. I'd like to hear from 25yearsMLC on this. Am I being too harsh on her? Am I disrespecting her choice to grow the way she chooses? I'm sorry 25, I'm not being disrespectful, I just want to know what would make a woman who is on a search for personal growth do such a thing? I want to understand so that I maybe able to better accept what she is doing. To stop the pain I feel when ever she's not around and my thought imagine her with him.

How can I justify this to myself? I can't!!! i wish I didn't know about him. I wish she'd not told me this way I could simply tell myself that she just wouldn't do that, no matter what the signs are.

This reminds me of the way Denver felt after he took his W and SS to the cinema.

what a horrible feeling.

[25yearsmlc]

This is mad. After such a high yesterday I feel so miserable today. There should be no reasons why today is worse than yesterday but for some reasons, OM is on my mind and I can't seem to shake him. I replay our evening of yesterday and I can just see her, laying in bed next to D8, looking so beautiful and then, it's like OM comes from out of no where and teases me and I push him out of my thought but her just comes back.

I thought I was ok, but I'm not. How do I move on from this stage?

Choosing to forgive, even when you know you played a role in how you two got here when you shut her out and down b/c you were depressed but never told her...

regardless - it's just a choice you made to BEGIN a process. The process of forgiveness for many of us, is a learned skill. I did not see it growing up so I didn't know what it looked like.

You can get some books on it, like "After the Affair", which I heard helps and that's for full blown physical affairs where the WAS feels "SO in love with their soul mates" and 'never felt that way before" and yada yada...as if the marriage to their partner never happened in their hearts...

(BTW chapter 1 or more, of DBing is on this site somewhere, so you can get started reading it. It's not the "how to" part but it gets you started on the books)...

For now I'd do the "Stop Sign" imagery thing so that whenever OM enters your mind you see a STOP SIGN in your head, and then change the image or topic to a neutral one OR a happy one of you and your daughter... AND then DO something physical. It really does help.

You may need a soothing mantra or two, to use in those moments. Stay calm and don't let those thoughts go wild in you. Practice mental discipline on this or you'll say some things you will regret. And you'll feel horrible too.

No, they are not having wildly satisfying sex all night and laughing at you and having one fantastic conversation after another and sharing ALL their insights and dreams and blah blah blah...it's NOT that way.

It's much less fun, much more complicated and there are many UNFUN emotions in her at this time...she's a mother, and that's a big deal. She knows what guilt feels like, and it's not always neurotic shame - but a conscience.
She knows OM has a FAMILY too. His willingness to leave them, MAYBE, is not necessarily seen as an act of pure love, but of at least some selfishness...and a possible pattern...

She knows the OM isn't a long term deal. He's a player who MAY find her appealing at the moment but in his line of work in that culture, I think his other options will appeal to him sooner rather than later and that MAY crush her..OR NOT...

she is not a stupid woman. But she has been hurt for longer than you realize and when you say "I ignored her b/c I was depressed but did not know it"...you are admitting something important, but then you seem to minimize it with a line or two that "explains/defends" your behavior which, no offense, sounded sh!tty to me.

So,you weren't "able" to be there for her, & she fell into OMs arms and then you went on to kind of go on about your pain. I'm sure that does NOT help you NOW.

We're solution based. Remember? What can you DO?

You hurt her. So, rather than emphasizing how hurt you are NOW when you merely imagine things you fear,

you could either recall what she was actually going through back then and what she saw in you that made her turn away--or got pushed away--

BUT ONLY IF YOU CAN BE PRODUCTIVE W/THAT imagery. If it only brings you down in shame, don't do it. but If it helps you stay focussed on the mirror, use it. Make sense?

How do I live with the knowledge that the woman I love more than life itself is in the arms of an OM.

1) You don't KNOW she's in his arms. OR loving it. And 2) you teach yourself how to change the way you think

which is what your goals are anyhow, correct? Changing yourself. Where the head goes, the heart will follow.

you can do this--this thing called change.


And then I get angry! I ask myself, how can she do this? How can she believe that this is going to help her find herself?

My DB coach told me that "asking things like 'HOW CAN MY H do this?" or "WHY are you ruining our family?" are SO NOT productive.

They are actually intended to elicit a defensive response from them and that's what you'll get.

You'd think I'd know that b/c I examine/cross examine witnesses but it never really occurred to me that way. YES---I DID see those questions as ways of me "scoring points" in litigation, but good grief, that sure does not belong in a marriage relationship. But I did it for YEARS! So I Thank God for my DB coach, what a Godsend she was...literally I think.

So w/those questions that we all FEEL like asking at some point, won't get you the answers you want. (Is there an answer anyhow? "OH, b/c I'm a selfish whore" or "B/c you deserve to be treated crappy" or "b/c I'm insane"??? See there's no good answer to those questions. Plus---

She'll probably tell you exactly how SHE felt when you belittled her for so long, and she'll recall 100 times more things than you recall. And she'll remember her pain that you either glossed over or didn't even know about but it was real...

She MAY tell you that when she's around OM he's "kind and complimentary and sensitive and cares about others"---

and in her eyes she'll SAY that he has or is who she needs/wants (and wished you were)...Do you want to hear that?

She'll tell you that you pushed her into his arms when you cruelly turned from her in HER time of need...and she believes that.

**Realize this--IMO, while your wife never wanted to hurt you intentionally,

I believe your wife felt justified in her feelings and does not believe she was morally wrong to feel that way. So you making her wrong now, won't help YOU.
She rationalized it and most women DO. Men sometimes go for 'quick easy no strings sex" but it's NOT like that for most women, including your wife.

She FELT something and that lead her in a new direction. Believe me, she felt justified or at least struggled with it.

***ALSO---The angry questions you want to ask,

WILL FUEL HER NEGATIVE IMAGES OF YOU,

WHICH YOU WANT TO COUNTER...W/POSITIVE IMAGES. Remember? Get it?

So Get the mirror out and work on the ONE person here, whom you can truly change and "control", which is YOU. And only you...

Also, maybe The more you demonstrate forgiveness, the more likely she'll believe in your changes and, the more likely she'll give it a try w/you. Have you asked her for forgiveness? And know that even if she says "Oh yes",

then understand that HER process for forgiveness is also NOT linear or instant...it's a process for her too. Did she see it growing up in her childhood?


When she asked me if I was seeing someone else, I should have told her that no, I wasn't. That I had no interest because in order to find myself, to be able to find happiness within myself, I need to make sure I don't jump in the arms of someone else, and find happiness there. That this is crucial to a personal search. It must be done alone. It's like an alcoholic replacing whiskey for beer. He's still drinking. He's not healing and he's just lying to himself when he says that there isn't as much alcohol in it so it's not the same thing.

I don't think so. I think this ^^^ is you lecturing her some more...it's more of your arguing your case to her, more of you judging her and telling her how SHE can be a better person and SHE CAN and SHOULD do a better search for meaning (a search that you have NOT done yourself...)

How convincing do you think that would be?

You MIGHT say, "I think for me, being w/myself is what I need, for now." Spare her the rest of the speech that is focussed on changing/controlling HER, and taking the focus off you...again...


I wonder if she realizes this. I'd like to hear from 25yearsMLC on this. Am I being too harsh on her? Am I disrespecting her choice to grow the way she chooses? I'm sorry 25, I'm not being disrespectful, I just want to know what would make a woman who is on a search for personal growth do such a thing?


The answer is IN the question. The search for personal growth is often triggered by another person- and how it makes her feel (just as your search was triggered by her emotional declaration).

I will post to you something from a WAW to her LBS h, that may help you understand where she (your w) is coming from.

But The short answer is, PAIN would make her seek out solace from someone offering it. Giving Solace and sharing things, i.e, disclosure builds emotional intimacy and that can lead to physical intimacy and sometimes, love.

And if that person came into her life or consciousness at the same time her partner in life rejected her or dismissed her, etc, (hurt her) then it would be even more contrasting and more noticeable that OM would be seen as different/better than what she had been living with. It would likely make her question other things too....she'd awaken to what was lacking in her m...

like I said, the letter from the other WAW to her h (after he changed a lot and wondered why his wife had any reservations about coming home to him and why she'd still THINK of OM...)

may help you understand better.


I want to understand so that I maybe able to better accept what she is doing. To stop the pain I feel when ever she's not around and my thought imagine her with him.

How can I justify this to myself? I can't!!! i wish I didn't know about him. I wish she'd not told me this way I could simply tell myself that she just wouldn't do that, no matter what the signs are.

This reminds me of the way Denver felt after he took his W and SS to the cinema.

what a horrible feeling.

It is a horrible feeling and I understand that. I used to wonder about the millions of "walking wounded" out there who somehow went to work and functioned in their life. I had a real appreciation for the people at work who someone would summarily describe as "was just divorced" and move on as is that said it all. To me that was like saying "His family just got wiped out in a plane crash...so he'll want to leave at 5 pm" and then sigh that he's not available for overtime...

It changed a lot about how I saw MANY folks in my life/work/neighborhood, etc.

I guess you're still in a newly reeling place but (b/c of your other threads)

I didn't know she got ready for a date in front of you. ??

That was not necessary of her and at best was insensitive. Nothing wrong w/you telling her that it hurt and you'd appreciate more discretion.

But I did not see that thread or post so don't say this if it's not fitting to the context.

To answer another question of yours, yes, couples can and DO recover from affairs. We know this for a fact.

*** But one BIG problem that people gloss over is this:***

When a person has an affair and then regrets it, SOMETIMES the reason the WAS does not return or even try to return is

the WAS fears that the LBSer won't ever forgive.

The WAS may want to come home but if they fear that

the LBS will hold it over their heads like the Sword of Damacles, or throw it in their face every time they fight, the WAS wont' bother trying to come home.
and sometimes their fears are justified, but when they are not justified it makes it even sadder.

But that fear is MORE Likely for her to have, with the questions you want to throw at her.

She'll think "Oh, there he goes! He'll NEVER forgive me; he'll be EVEN MORE Angry and it'll be WORSE than before... and that's the last thing I want to return to..." it will confirm her fears that you cannot change or be kind and uncritical.

At least that's what I believe is most likely w/those questions.

If the time comes when she wants to try and reconcile, THEN you can come to terms with how to rebuild trust, on both ends...certainly not now.

Anyhow, the next post is from the WAW and so, see if it helps you gain insight.

(I think It was posted to Denver, btw...)

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

Arsene, here it is. Hope it helps...like I said I think it was posted to Denver after he got a letter from his then WAW...(whom he's now reconciled with, btw)

So Denver got this letter from another WAW, relating to his wife, and it opened his eyes a bit, or so I think.

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO REALLY HAS CHANGED - AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET-

AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. -

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.

So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties/hurts that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H

and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.


****And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "WIN".***

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_______________

[25yearsmlc]

ps

you MUST get the books. I don't care how. Buy it on a Kindle Or Nook or somehow get it done! Ask a friend/sibling to mail it to you or something...

But get it. Read it. This will help you tremendously and it'll calm you when you need it.

I also had playlists on my Ipod to comfort me or to motivate me OR to make me imagine my life without h BUT W/ME BEING HAPPY

and some "fury marches" where I just exercised the heck out of myself FOR ME to work off the stress...and some mantras.

Little 2 min pep talks too, can help. If you believe in a supreme being, try turning over your pain and anger over to Him/Universe b/c it's too much for you at the moment.

That's not weakness; it's awareness and it's protective. Otherwise it's so easy to lose it and say something you cannot take back...or that sets you back far.

Get the books...I promise they'll change your attitude and your life.


BTW, if you get advice that is NOT DB advice AND OR comes from an angry bitter or unsuccesful person, consider the source.

And always Check yourself for motivations too. Are you wanting to do or say something to punish her, to convince her, to "show her the consequences of her actions" to "teach her a lesson"?????

My DB coach shocked me when she said "OH NO, It's NOT your job to do that to your spouse. Life does it for them." Ask yourself if your proposed words/acts come from a place of love or light in your heart, versus a darker place that wants to SHOW HER!!!

I had to do this a lot b/c I used the "this is so unfair" excuse to become my husband's jury and judge and executioner. All on the grounds of what's FAIR AND JUST...

but it was me judging him. And it never ever helped my cause. Not even once. Just backfired 100% of the time. So you'd think I'd change my behavior a bit sooner but NOT ME!!!

Look, we all have to check ourselves for whether our spouses are cake eating/taking advantage of us

OR if there's real progress or baby steps happening that are improving things...

We have to check ourselves for what self respect is, versus being too prideful.
"Boundary setting" versus an excuse to punish.

We all have wounded pride and bruised egos in this situation. We may grow and be glad for the ultimate changes in the LONG RUN...but for now,

you need to get through your days without freaking. We need to make sure our choices are NOT based on our wounded pride or bruised egos.

You need to manage your pain hwoever you can. Can you get anything for the anxiety to help you sleep, or to keep you from letting your mind careen around in dark places? Or to help you STFU?

Sometimes the most helpful thing to say, is nothing.


And getting help, professionally, is SMART and HEALTHY of you...trust me, there's NO shame in that. Been there, done it.

((( )))

[Arsene]

Thank you so much 25. You hit the spot and got me teary-eyed once again. I never wanted to ask her those questions though. I was venting to get it out, but I realize that this type of question would destroy any chance I may have.

What's encouraging is that I think I had managed to forgive her after her EA of two years ago and even to rebuild trust. I just hope that if/when the time comes I can manage it again. I think that this process might be more difficult the second time around.

The letter helps. I understand how it might happen and it saddens me, to think that she might be in love with him, but I'm not angry anymore. Just sad. I'll try your "stop sign" trick and try to focus on myself and D8.

Again, thanks so much for your time and wisdom. It's not fallen on deaf ears, I promise you. I'll do what I need to do to make things right.

[Arsene]

Hey Rough,

Thanks for popping by. Post-noodles updates includes me feeling in the dumps as you can read above, and W coming around again today and suggesting a family outing.

When W found out that me and D8 were supposed to go fly her kite at a nearby park but cancelled because she called to say she was dropping by (D8's idea), she suggested we all ride our bikes and go together.

Other than the fact that I felt the way I did and had to make a tremendous effort to act "as if", I suppose things went well enough except for one incident which leaves me wondering.

W had asked me to put her phone in my backpack so she wouldn't need to bring her purse so i did. At the park, while I was running around with D8, trying to get the kite off the ground (not enough wind), I looked in W's direction and noticed that she was reading a book, then I realized what she was reading.

In my backpack I had the only self-help English book I could find at the local book shop (and it turns out it's a useful one too). It's called US, by Lisa Oz and it's about transforming ourselves and the relationships that matter most. I'm only at chapter 2 (there are a lot of exercises to put the advice into practice) and I've underlined loads of stuff so far.

I'm not sure what she found in this or what she made of it, but I got scared, thinking about all the times I've heard "do not let them see what you're reading to improve yourself". By the time I got back to her, the book was away again and she didn't mention anything about it but now I find myself worrying.

I had a look at the stuff I had underlined and it's all good stuff which is rather general about making changes that last.

Now I wonder if this can have a negative impact.

On the way back we stopped for dinner at a food stall and after I took care of the bill she thanked me for dinner. I got down again when D8 and her were playing at kissing one another and my imagination went wild again, I long to be kissed by her so much and then I had to stop myself from actually kissing her. She was laughing, and it looked just like the old times and it's what I would have done then, but now, I can't anymore.

Needless to say, the remainder of the way home was tough. I kept my brave face on but she probably noticed that the mood had switched. Hopefully not. Another time in the evening when I got saddened was when it was time for D8' shower. We usually shower together and then W needed a shower as well before leaving so D8 opted to have a shower with mommy. What is sad is that we used to shower all three of us together in the old days and play in the water and all and then this reminded me that we weren't in the old days anymore.

W left a few hours ago. I wonder if this wasn't too much contact for the last few days. I'm not detached anymore, not that I ever was detached all that much but I think I was getting there. Now, little things affect me. The good times we had yesterday are clouding my judgment. I'm starting to see her as my companion again, but she is not. And that affects me. It also affects D8 who cried more than usually when W left.

Tonight, as I was reading 25yearsMLC's response, I started crying, and D8, who hadn't yet fallen asleep turned around and caught me. She then started crying uncontrollably. I hugged her but she wouldn't stop crying. She started talking about all her friends at school who have "happy families" and asked me when we would too. I told her we had to be strong and that mommy needed some time. I told her we both loved her and that I was trying very hard to become a better person and that one day, we might get our family back.

She just fell asleep again. I feel like hell. It's good that I have my D8 with me otherwise, sometimes I'd just go out to get myself a stiff drink, and perhaps do something stupid. She keeps me in check and focused on what is important.

And how are you doing Rough? Any updates on your sitch since the issue over you scheduled time with your SS?

[25yearsmlc]

I don't have the time at the moment to respond in full

but at those tough moments w/your d, try assuring her of YOUR love and stability and how long you have loved your wife and always will AND how you will ALWAYS LOVE YOUR D.....

That you "hope" things don't lead to more separation my mc said don't mention divorce unless the child does and EVEN THEN be hopeful

until if and when you KNOW for a FACT it's done...still be hopeful...

b/c you are - and b/c she needs that.

So you can say what I said when my girls asked if we were divorcing

I'd say "I hope not, b/c he's the love of my life"

OR

"I hope not b/c I've loved him a LONG time..."

and I did my best to assure them that their worst fears would NOT occur

but I had to ask what those were....

which were "moving again' and when I said

"oh no more moves, for at least 2 years" that helped A LOT...it meant d16 would finish at her high school and the younger d could not think that far ahead'...

it helped them feel a lot better. Stress what will NOT change for HER....

Friends, school, neighborhood, family nearby?

And if you must move, stress what is good about THAT....make sense?