Should I initiate R talk?

[roughenough]

Sorry to hijack but damn Denver!!! That was very well said.

[Arsene]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but she has told you how she feels. She wants a S.... AND, you've told her that you don't. Sounds like you guys have told each other how each of you feels.

She said she's okay not ever getting a divorce.

TO ME-that screams of a woman wanting to know if she can trust your changes.

Her fear is you'll go back to the way things were (and things weren't too good for her or your d w/your past behaviors. Don't gloss over that stuff b/c it's KEY).

But if she could trust that the changes she sees in you-- are going to continue, and that you could grow together and as one, then wow...what a life you could live, together...

Actually, please read post #2266866 above . My sitch has just changed dramatically, interestingly enough, just as I was starting to regain confidence and see more clearly what i had to do. Your comments are welcomed.

Thanks

[Denver_2010]

Sorry to hijack but damn Denver!!! That was very well said.

Wish i could take credit for it, but the framework of the statement I took from someone else here on this board from long ago.

It worked though.

that was my philosophy the entire time. I would not help her end our M. That was her choice, and if she wanted to do it, she would have to do the work.

Bought me lots of time. Which I believe that I used wisely.

[Arsene]

@5yearsMLC,

I'm sorry about the multiple threads. I found your long post and went through it, I must admit with pain in my heart and tears in my eyes.

I don't agree with everything you said but you hit the mark on many points. Those I don't agree with I am taking the time to consider, because I'm realising that i don't really know myself all that much. That I spent a lot of my life thinking I was a kind-hearted man with an open mind and a pretty good level of self-awareness while in fact, it looks like I bullied myself through most situations because I was certain I was right and every body else was wrong, and I didn't even notice it.

Thanks for your brutal awakening. Enough 2X4s there to build a house (and hopefully a home)

I'm reading through all of your thread and wanted to finish it before commenting. You are certainly in good hands with kaffe Diem...

but there are a few things I don't want to forget to mention so I'm going to go ahead and make a few remarks here before I forget these issues as they struck me...

Yeah, her family was never very religious either and W isn't too much into Buddhism but she said it seemed the least harmful of the ones to chose from.

What were her realistic theological options in her country? And are you saying, in a way she's really agnostic/atheist

OR that She's searching for a good fit, spiritually?


There are only 5 religions available in this country. Islam, Catholic, Protestant, Hinduism and Buddhism. From what i understand of W's choice, Buddhism was more about self-awareness and a personal spiritual search and she liked that idea. So do I.

She has been quite angry lately with a lot of things which are happening in her country right now re:religion and fondamental groups as well as government not protecting the minorities.


Sounds to me as if she's becoming more intellectually aware of social injustices in her society?

Her anger does not sound personal, so much as the anger of righteous indignation of someone bravely beginning to wake up...

For Asian women in Muslim countries, from what I gathered serving in the Gulf, that's a brave and frightening thing to do...or even think of doing.

Indeed it is

She'd been disillusioned for a long time with the merits of Islam and often voiced her opinion that she doubted it was a religion of peace. As for me, I was never a practicing Muslim so i didn't bother switching as it's just a piece of paper. Only the locals must have their religion on their ID.




Couldn't help but shake my head at that sentence. Politics aside, in our nation at the moment there's a huge debate about border politics and the "border wars" in Arizona. If they only knew what goes on in other countries we might remind ourselves more often, of how lucky we are here.
ANYHOW...


The EA was/is(?) with a local (the drummer in her band) Muslim, married with two Kids and living apart from his family.

I read the thread but don't have a grip on what this "EA" is about. What does she SAY or ADMIT, about him, about their r, and why do you call it an "EA"?

She admitted to having an Emotional Affair with a band member, at a time when she couldn't talk to me because I was going through a depression (neither of us knew that I was at the time). She said that she felt love for him and that some kissing and petting had occured, but not more. Keep in mind that it is very difficult to be an adulterer in this country.


I don't think she has embraced Buddhism although she has read on it and about the concept that nothing matters and we all are one with the universe anyway(which she used as a reason why it doesn't matter whether or not we came back together) but i have investigated it


no offense but now is where you get a small "2 x 4" in Div Busting land.
Seems to me you got way off track of your own path to empathy and being UNcritical in the way you live. You want her to notice your changes but...

do you notice anything critical, condescending or judgmental about your tone here?

[color:#33CC00]Yes, I do.

She seems to be on a genuine spiritual quest that includes increased political awareness and possible activism about her nation's problems...

Most people, especially artists, are on a journey of sorts and it's serious to her. It's meaningful.

But the way I read your words sounded to me as if YOU are judging what you think she has read, your analysis of her reasoning, and then you say you have "investigated it" and that's an odd phrasing if ever there was one.

Just think about it. Food for thought okay?
[/color]

I hear you.
nonetheless and I now meditate everyday. She on the other hand, never put much effort in meditation (she said she tried it a few times but that she could never concentrate and then she gave up)

^^^more judgement by you of HER efforts at Her own religious interest.

You say you did not share the interest in Buddhism that she did,

but You took up meditation??? and b/c you said it helped you,

you claim she also tried it but not really well enough for your tastes...

(SIDENOTE--seems to me, if she had seen genuine marked differences in your behavior - and credited those changes to meditation, she'd have gotten into it a lot more)

REGARDLESS....

when you say she "never put much effort into it" that's you assessing & mindreading & judging her efforts in a private internal endeavor and

since there was a conversation about it, I assume it means you then asked her about why she wasn't getting more out of it, like you say you did...so she had to defend herself...

(the way it struck me was not as if it was a compliment coming from you)

and maybe it is true or maybe not...but so what?

Isn't that totally, exclusively, HER business?

She wants space and less criticism...but it seems she can't even meditate without you grading her.


After telling her what i felt when meditating she said that she tried a few times and couldn't feel anything so she stopped said that she never had the time anyways

although she acknowledged that it seemed to have changed me a lot and I (gently) suggested that she gave it another go (even telling her how i went about it) because it had been instrumental in my figuring myself out. i think she is afraid to figure herself out. She's afraid of what she might find.


So here we have yet more mind reading on your end, and it's pretty much always got a negative spin on it too. Seems You believe you know her most inner feelings even more than she does? Really?

What is it she'd fear finding? Something bad in her? Really? B/C She sounds altruistically concerned with the world around her, she wants to help others less fortunate. She's artsy and sensitive...

You say you are working on not being critical and learning to have empathy for others...

Why not keep the focus on YOU and YOUR GAL and your own personal growth since you admit you have issues of your own...and b/c you are the only person you can control in this life.

You don't get to shape HER and how she lives/thinks/meditates or feels, b/c she's in charge of HER life and you are only in charge of yours, and doing right by your d.

Your efforts will be more productive if you keep the focus on YOU and YOUR WORK...not hers.



Point taken. I hope I am learning

Thanks for the encouragement on the music front. I really hope I can pull this off because it would be a real GAL/180 for me to do it on my own, not relying on her talent to do this for a living.

Your final comment might be very accurate. She has been told over the year (by her sister) that she was no longer acting (her nationality). That she was more westernise. Although this is true, it was never all my fault.

Why Must we assume it's a negative trait for which you wish to avoid blame? It's possible her family sees it as a negative but is it, really?
OR it merely someone changing OR EVOLVING?

Having been a singer in bars for nearly 20 years has had a lot to do with it. Besides, her english is excellent (because of this) and she was often the only member of her band who could talk to Western foreigners. She left home at 17 to go to university in another city, against her mom's will (which is not common in this culture) and I remember her mentioning how she often missed just sitting in a local coffee stand and talking about nothing with locals.

I hope your other posts will focus more on YOU and your work and not all about her and your analysis of her life. You have limited time to correct the course your marriage is on and I'm not seeing the value of this pseudo analysis of her history and it makes it all about her and NOT about what you can actually affect, which is YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR...
I hope so too. It feels like I missed the point all along. That is probably why she now wants a Divorce


She's also started to read books written by influential writers of her country and to write patriotic and philosophical poetry in her language. She also is looking at doing more altruistic work to help the poor and weak in her area. From what I've read, all of these are signs of female MLC.


Wow I must admit, That statement ^^^ irked me a great deal. It just reeks of condescension to me. Maybe it's her hormones????

It's as if you see no value in her Growth, b/c that's what it is. SHE is reading books by intelligent, philisophical, theological works and political influential authors and she is writing poetry...

[color:#33CC00]You are right. Just me trying to pin a label on her to explain something i don't understand which I didn't see coming, probably because I wasn't paying attention.

isn't she a singer? isn't that a good thing?

So My first response is to suggest that You try reading more intelligent, less sexist books that don't call this growth a problem when it happens in a woman. But I realize you are only beginning on your own journey so I'll try to just be constructive here.

Ask yourself this--- if you met a man who was reading great books and stretching his mind and seeking out new faiths, and who wanted to do more with his life, to become more altruistic, to make a difference, who took up causes as he became increasingly aware of injustices around him, and wanted to do more to help others...would you call that a mid life crisis of his? Would you belittle it?

Do you realize that is what you just did when you described your w's efforts and changes?

We both know you Calling it "signs of female MLC" is no compliment.

This is what many in western cultures call an "awakening" in women, NOT an MLC.

This is sprititual and intellectual GROWTH in her but you are making it something negative.

I know, now.

I'm not hearing a single positive in the WAY you describe it, although I myself love what I'm reading b/c I get the feeling I'd really admire her.

I'm sure you would. Deep inside, when I'm not panicking, I do, so much.

To me, A woman's MLC involves leaving her marriage AND her family to take art lessons or drive motorcycles to "find" happiness, a person who acts selfishly...she's not.

She seems to be evolving into a better woman &

that is what happens to mature adults as they begin to want more meaning in their lives,

as they begin to want to change their environments for the better.

And as they disconnect from those cultural or religious beliefs (or people) who prevent or hinder them on their journey...

This evolution in lifestyle and ebb/flow of how we view our world and our role in it, is what makes people who contribute positively to our world, do so.
[/color]
I've told her that all of these things are fine with me and that i would also be willing to partake in this.

When you tell her you are "Willing to partake", what does she SAY to that?


she doesn't care anymore. She's through.


As i said i am not religious but I am very spiritual and environment-
conscious and have always wanted to give back to my community.

Please take No offense at this question but - when did you say ^^^this?

[color:#33CC00]Throughout our married life, but I never acted on it. Git too busy with "life". they were just words

What I read was that you are working on caring about others more.

You want to learn to be kinder and to "Have More compassion for others" and are "trying to have empathy" for people, including those who are different than you. Those are your words.

There's also a lot here about you working on not being so critical and working on your bad temper. You stated that you had impossibly high standards (which is what a lot of critical people say to justify their negative responses...they set others up for failure so they can criticize them.)

I wonder what is it like for you to compliment your wife or d? Trust me I know you love them. But what I'm getting at is what your love language is and what hers are.

Chapman's book "The Five Love Languages" is excellent and reminds us that how we SHOW love and how we RECEIVE love are often OFTEN not the same IN US

and usually not the same in our partners.

My h's love languages are words of affirmation and physical touch. Mine are doing acts of service and spending quality time together. Those differences are not flaws in either of us, but they are variables to work with and to respect.

Those are important flaws to work on b/c they harm others and they harm our r's with others. Those traits do more damage than we care to admit or face...it can be overwhelming to know how deeply we've hurt those we love.

But if we can't admit it, we're not likely to stop doing it.

If a mother sees her child being emotionally harmed by someone, it hurts her to the core. OTOH- if she sees loving interaction between her child and the child's father, it's a moving experience for any mother.

Also I didn't read anything about a spiritual side from you, except you saying you didn't care about religion either way, it was only a paper to you.

Maybe your wife doesn't think you are sincere about this and maybe she thinks it's a tactic to get her to be around you more.

That would be a tactic, and a form of pursuit AND a form of hindering her on her own journey b/c you'd be making it all about you and not about helping others or what she's going through internally.

So, among other things, I'm asking if you think SHE might believe any of this^^?
[/color]

No, I don't think so. It seems to me that she appreciated being able to express herself as she wanted about these issues. We usually had good conversations about books we read such as Conversation with God, or the Celestine Prophecy to name a few.

These things don't need to separate us. This is also why my GAL/180s include the language lessons and also perhaps doing something for my community. When in my country, my D8 was amazed at how there were playgrounds everywhere and i told her that I would try to build something for her and the neighborhood kids when we got back.

This is helping KD. It keeping my mind on the positive. On what's important and helping me to see what i need to do. Thx

It's crucial you keep the focus on what YOU can do. I think building a playground or getting the funds to build one is a great idea. Is this something you can achieve or help create?


Yes. It's a promise to my daughter and to myself

And think about getting that book on the Five Love Languages too, (I think ou said you finally got the Div Remedy book right?)


Not yet but I'm working on it.

Good luck! You don't know how much time you have together but You do have some so, use it wisely.

Last but not least, the simple fact ("simple" as in, not complicated) to remember in all this is that -


your wife must believe marriage to you

can be better/different than before -

or she won't want to return to it.

She fears you'll revert, that your changes are not real or that they won't last if she returns.

SO

Small consistent changes on your end + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

Terms like MLC and WAW make no difference here. IN fact I think the terms deflect from changes the LBSer needs to make.

This has been going on for 2 or more years by your count and by hers, probably a lot longer. It took her telling you she's out of there, for you to finally get it and say "OMG" and to try and change. The more you argue with her or challenge her choices, the more she'll defend them.

So what are YOU DOING TO SHOW HER w/actions, (not words), that

marriage to you can be better/different than before?


I haven't shown anger and I have caught most of my judgmental and criticizing thoughts (at least those I could see). I have tried to empathize with the locals and with W. I take time to think before answering a question and don't lose my temper even if I'm being told my mistakes. I am more patient and I try not to impose my expectations on others. I am working very hard at curving my "passive aggressive" behaviour and stopping every attempt at making people feel guilty (that I can catch). I am more relaxed with my daughter. I learned to lay off and not criticize her anymore. I have been more generous in general, I stop looking for excuse why i shouldn't share/give to others. I often speak to the locals in their language, and I initiate many conversation, trying to understand them. I force myself to be happy from within, but I'm not always successful. It's a work in progress. Overall, I generally try to be kind to all people. I am not there yet, far from it. but everyday, on this site and through my C and discussions with friends, I find out things about myself that I don't like and I try to correct it. I know it might be too late for my marriage, but at least it's not too late for me, my daughter and my future relationships.

Thanks you so much.

[Arsene]

Thanks Needsgrace,

It very powerful stuff but not easy to apply on a daily basis. It's from Conversation with God By Neile Walsh.

[Arsene]

I think it's quite good as well. I might borrow parts of it. It's not an easy thing to do but it might also help me release her. And I think it would also be out of character. Boy this stuff isn't getting easier. I feel emotionally drained.

Thanks everyone, really.

[Arsene]

Dear fellow DBers,

When i came here at first, everyone told me I was in for a roller coaster ride and I believed you but I had no idea to what extent.

As is mentioned earlier in my thread, yesterday W came around to tell me she wanted a divorce, that we were incompatible, that we weren't even friends and that she could never be with me again.

I managed to remain calm during the meeting but i don't need to tell you that once i was on my own (and later in the evening when I was out with a few friends) I fell apart and it was a long way up. Even today for most of the day my stomach was in a huge knot and i could not think of anything else.

Then, this evening, W calls to tell D8 that she'll be dropping by. I, of course don't know what to expect so after going through a mild anxiety attack, I decide to act "as if" no matter what. I was cooking for myself and D8 and I put on some music and started dancing with d8 while cooking. It was a lot of fun, cheered me up and got W off my mind.

When W walked in, D8 and myself were making silly music videos with her phone camera and we were laughing so much it hurt.

To my surprise, W came in, touched my shoulder gently as she said hello and said the food smelled good. I asked her if she was hungry and offered her some pasta which to my surprise, she accepted (in the last few weeks she would refuse any food from me). As she was eating, she commented positively on the pasta and said that she hadn't had western food since I'd left 2 1/2 month before. I was glad to see that she enjoyed it but secretly wished I had cooked one of her favorite dishes.

Later, she told me she was here to apologize for what she'd said yesterday.

I didn't ask her what part she was apologizing for and i didn't ask if she still wanted divorce. I just acknowledged her and told her not to worry about it.

We ended up having a great time together and she seemed relaxed and happy. At one point, after D8 went to bed she told her that her and daddy would just be talking in the living room. And talking we did. Just a nice interesting convo about a bit of everything and I let her lead while I was happy to listen, and validate when i could. She expressed many times that she was worried about our/my financial difficulties (neither of us have found a job yet). She also said that she often thought that it had been a mistake to come in this city (the city where OM lives) and that perhaps it would have been better to go to where we had planned (the touristic area of the country). I told her I understood and that I was sure things would fall into place.
We talked about business ideas where we would combine our efforts, she asked me how my music was coming along. Overall, a pleasant evening and i remained a gentleman and a good listener throughout the evening. I managed to STFU while also contributing to the conversation in a pleasant manner when needed.

She just left, and as she walked to the car, turned around again to smile and say goodnight.

I smiled, replied and was the first one to walk away.

My stomach is no longer in a knot and i have a feeling i will sleep tonight. I'm not sure what happened between yesterday and today but I'll take any opportunity to show her how much of a good time we can have together.

Thank you all.

[Arsene]

BTW, while I'm at it. I also find it interesting that she asked me if i was seeing an good female friend of mine romantically (actually the girl who encouraged me to make my move on W 10 year ago).

I told her no and she told me that it would be ok for me to date. I told her that I had no interest in it and that I didn't need it.

What do you make of that?

[roughenough]

Arsene- wow, quite the ride you’re on. Up down up down….

That’s great news that you had a good evening with W, I am very happy for you. I am not sure about your last comment.

“she told me that it would be ok for me to date. I told her that I had no interest in it and that I didn't need it.”

I think W wanted to take your temperature by making that statement. I am sure you will get mixed views from people on this board in regards to addressing W’s statement.

We all handle things differently and sometimes I F&^% up if I am thrown off guard. I probably would have simply said “point taken”. I know it’s water under the bridge so I don’t know why I am even bringing it up. Maybe because I think it’s a good idea to keep W guessing. You don’t make her “wonder” as much when you make a statement like that. By no means am I suggesting to start dating again. I know your response is truly how you feel however the fact is and I know you are aware of this, there’s some “gamesmanship that’s required”.

In regards to my own sitch, part of me thinks, whatever!!! I guess that’s my “as if” attitude however I think I genuinely feel that way. At the same time my sitch just consumes me like no other!! I know, I am contradicting myself. Don’t get me wrong, I do care, I won’t give up and I am going to do the hard work necessary and I know you are to. Take care!

Rough

[25yearsmlc]

BTW, while I'm at it. I also find it interesting that she asked me if i was seeing an good female friend of mine romantically (actually the girl who encouraged me to make my move on W 10 year ago).

I told her no and she told me that it would be ok for me to date. I told her that I had no interest in it and that I didn't need it.

What do you make of that?

Not sure what to make of it. WHEN did she say this? During the prior divorce talk or later on when she came over and apologized? I think that's relevant.

She may realize the inherent one sided nature of her choice and wants to feel fair by saying you are free to date. But I am not sure what the context was.

Also, not to nitpick but when she apologizes listen to her carefully and don't think you are being generous by saying not to worry about it...

it sort of negates her apology. Plus it DID hurt you. Maybe she deserves "credit" or accountability for owning that.

Not sure if I'm being clear enough on that but when someone apologizes I think in our attempt to be non confrontational, we brush it off. Maybe it's better to say "thanks, It means a lot to hear you say that."

Plus you might have learned more about what she was apologizing for.
Was it an apology for the truth hurting you

or a retraction of some or all of it?

Your interactions with d8 are excellent. Maybe there will come a time when you thank your wife for being the catalyst for the changes you are making.

I say that so that she realizes you are growing too, and maybe she'll see you as being on the same team. That also happens with good co-parenting.

And the more she sees you as being on the same "side", the better the chance of growing from there. Love is at least partly a choice.

Love is not just a noun. Love is also an ACTION verb, (requiring action on our part)

and we have to choose to love, on a daily basis. Sometimes our partners' don't behave in a way that feels lovable to us but we have to choose to love them anyhow. I don't mean to say that being a doormat is "unconditional love" b/c if my partner were consistently mistreating me, I'd eventually leave the relationship.

My point is that love isn't just a "feeling" that lands on us or falls off like branches on a tree. Sometimes I think WASs forget that love is a choice.

Keep up the great interactions with your d and be the best dad you can be.

Your d needs you both & right now you are her rock. Where is your w living right now?

What are your job options? Can you move to the more touristy city? I mean it sounds as if your w had some good ideas to help the financial situation.

Do you have any plans on that topic? Being a good provider, sexist as this is, is attractive to women.

A study on marriage--- (I think this was a western study but maybe it was global. I don't know)--

revealed the two traits most important in spouses and showed some interesting findings.

For men, the two traits most important were that they found their wives physically attractive and that they wanted "peace in the home" which was interpreted as meaning no nagging or criticism.

Women said the two most important traits were security, (meaning that they felt safe physically--their h would protect them--and financially--the "shelter" was secure

and fidelity, which is pretty self explanatory.

But that reminds me of the "caveman" theory that my feminist friends only admit to in private.

It's that at some biological level, women can go back to the stone age and find that we want to feel safe in our cave when our hunter mate goes out.

We find ourselves most attracted to the man most likely to bring home the meat...and to know that if a saber tooth tiger tried to enter the cave, the man would fight it off or build something to block dangerous animals from entering. So the "security" factor is mulit-dimensional.

Particularly when there are children, I think it's crucial that a woman feels safe financially and physically. So maybe getting a job that provides some security would help all of you...??

Regardless, when you asked about the legal side of things, knowledge is power. Find out what your rights are as a non citizen, if that's applicable. For instance, I happen to know in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi citizen gets custody regardless of gender...

Find out your legal rights, get some financial security and be the best dad you can be and best man you can be.

Did I read it correctly that you have NOT read the Div Busting or Divorce Remedy books? You have to read it (I prefer the second one b/c it's the most recent) so you can really "get" what we are saying. This is a solution based approach to marital problems - which is one reason all the analysis can be counter productive. Same for re=hashing the past...

but if you don't read the book, it looks half hearted to me. The book Is also going to help you change in concrete ways, and that's a big deal.

if your wife believes the changes are real, that you are a crucial loving part of your d's life she won't want to remove, that you are a man only a fool would leave, that you offer security and a safe future, it's hard to believe she won't reconsider her choices...

but as stated elsewhere, don't argue with her about the choices. She'll defend the choices, instead of examining them.

You saw Denver's post and that's a good approach I think. But it requires a lot of patience. Look at his time line (and mine) to understand what we mean by reasonable timelines.

Like I said, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Hang in there.