Should I initiate R talk?

[seeking answers]

Arsene,

Have you made arrangements to get your D in to counseling yet? From the behavior you describe, she is definitely showing signs of being in distress about the sitch. Keep reassuring her this has nothing to do with her and that Mommy and Daddy love her very much.

You sound like a great Dad and are doing what you can for your little girl, but she sounds like she may be having abandonment issues. For that you need to get her some outside help to deal with it.

Did you have a chance to read that chapter on MLC yet from MWD's DR book? If you have, did anything about your W's actions seem to fit? Since there is no clinical diagnosis for MLC, it's up to the LBS to determine whether they think it's MLC or not.

Hang in there, you're going to be better than OK.

[Arsene]

Hi SA,

Yeah, I read a lot of stuff last night and I'm convinced that it is MLC and today just confirmed this even more.

First of all I had my first session in C and it was 4 hours long. A lot of stuff came out but i think that the poor C (Local person) was overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge I brought to the table (thanks to DB). She of course agreed to the course of action I had in mind (DB) and asked me to keep a journal of the progress I do on my 180s. I'm seeing her again next week.

I have to admit that after talking about all of this for 4 hours and crying my eyes out as new stuff came out, I actually felt pretty strong, and it's a good thing because I was about to be tested big time when i got home.

I'm still not sure where it stemmed from (although I have a theory)but on arrival, W told me she wanted a divorce.

Surprisingly, as i was fresh out of C, I didn't fall apart. I kept my head on and calmly asked her why, since she's already told me she wasn't going to seek a divorce.

She said she'd changed her mind and rambled on about not knowing how to act, about there being many gray zones and about her needing some sort of closure. She also said how difficult it was when interacting with people. She never knew what to say to them and how to answer their questions. She asked what was the point anyway since we weren't even friends anymore. She said that it would be best for both of us and that it would allow me to move on.

To this i replied that I understood how she felt, that I also often didn't know how to behave in her company or what to tell people. I explained that when ever I tried to behave normally I felt she was uncomfortable so i pulled away to give her space. I also said that I was fine and didn't need this to move on. To this I added that I personally didn't want a divorce and that it really didn't matter what we told people.

She then angrily brought up the issue about our financial discussion and how it hurt her when I said the things I said. I asked her if she'd read my reply (which she had) and validated her feeling and explained again how she actually helped me figure out this behavioral problem in me and how I was trying to sort it out. To this she said she didn't believe me. That these were just words.

Then she went on to say that it didn't matter, and that a divorce is what she wanted. She then added that we were totally incompatible and that there was no way she would ever want to be with me again.

To this I said that i wasn't sure what was going on because we had never actually talked about the reason behind our separation. I told her i didn't know anything about her situation, about how she was doing. She then told me simply that she was living in a boarding house and that she was seeing someone. I asked if it was the EA from 2 years before and she said yes. I said (gently) that I didn't agree with that and that I thought it was wrong but that there was nothing i could do about it. I then asked if OM was also seeking a divorce, she said she didn't know but that it didn't matter. I also asked her (again gently) to please not repeat the events of Saturday night when she got ready for her date in front of me. I told her that I felt she was being insensitive. She then jumped on the defensive, practically denying that she was getting ready to go on a date, simply saying that she had been sweaty all day and that she needed to shower and change before going home(of course i didn't ask why she put on make up and used mouth wash if she was simply going home - or why she felt the need to defend herself since she'd just admitted to seeing OM).

I asked her if she was talking to someone, if she was actually doing what she said she'd do and try to figure herself out. To this she answered that she was fine and didn't need any help. Then she asked why i didn't want a divorce and what I was hoping from this. She reiterated that she couldn't see herself ever coming back to me.

I told her I didn't want a divorce but I told her I'd need time to think about it. To this she agreed. And I left for a walk (to ball my eyes out). The whole conversation went very calmly and I never showed, my true feelings. Again poise is the word.

Can someone explain what happened? Why this sudden urge to get a divorce? What should i do about it? It feels to me that refusing would be seen as pursuing. I thought I might just take the time to check out divorce laws in this country and not bring it up again until she does.

What should i do now? Does this mean that what I'm doing is working or not working?

[Arsene]

Hi SA,

Yeah, I read a lot of stuff last night and I'm convinced that it is MLC and today just confirmed this even more.

First of all I had my first session in C and it was 4 hours long. A lot of stuff came out but i think that the poor C (Local person) was overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge I brought to the table (thanks to DB). She of course agreed to the course of action I had in mind (DB) and asked me to keep a journal of the progress I do on my 180s. I'm seeing her again next week.

I have to admit that after talking about all of this for 4 hours and crying my eyes out as new stuff came out, I actually felt pretty strong, and it's a good thing because I was about to be tested big time when i got home.

I'm still not sure where it stemmed from (although I have a theory)but on arrival, W told me she wanted a divorce.

Surprisingly, as i was fresh out of C, I didn't fall apart. I kept my head on and calmly asked her why, since she's already told me she wasn't going to seek a divorce.

She said she'd changed her mind and rambled on about not knowing how to act, about there being many gray zones and about her needing some sort of closure. She also said how difficult it was when interacting with people. She never knew what to say to them and how to answer their questions. She asked what was the point anyway since we weren't even friends anymore. She said that it would be best for both of us and that it would allow me to move on.

To this i replied that I understood how she felt, that I also often didn't know how to behave in her company or what to tell people. I explained that when ever I tried to behave normally I felt she was uncomfortable so i pulled away to give her space. I also said that I was fine and didn't need this to move on. To this I added that I personally di

[Denver_2010]

In the tradition started by Denver here is a song which hits the mark at this moment and which,

LOL! I could put together a soundtrack for my sitch!

[Denver_2010]

Hi Denver,

I think I'm about half way through your threads and it's comforting to see that you felt the same as I do at one time.

I did. Hell, I felt it as recently as May. But I think that most everyone here felt that desperate feeling, at least at the beginning. It's awful. But it is normal. And what it tells me is that you love your W.

Regarding your advice up there, I realised that I can't listen to my wife as she doesn't really talk about herself. She sometimes asks me how I'm doing but never volunteers anything about her life.

Just wait for it. I'm fairly confident that it will come eventually. In the meantime, there is nothing wrong with having light convo with your W about other stuff in the world... or about your D.

About the positive attitude and the Act "as if". I try to do that but I must be very bad at it because the other day, even D8 asked me why I was sad or upset, then wife also asked and I went on the defensive telling them I was fine. Last night as well, I was trying to get W out as soon as possible but it's like she was enjoying seeing me suffer. Like she was putting this on just for me. Taking her merry time with her make up and mouth wash and making sure she got a last glimpse in the mirror before leaving. I wanted to go and leave her to it but i had to let her out of the boarding house and of course by then I couldn't act anymore. She won that round as well.

Act as if... have a positive mental attitude... fake it til you make it... and all of the other sayings that you will find here.

Man, you have to figure this one out. The one thing that I did pretty well, most of the time, throughout my situation was to act as if I had a positive mental attitude when I was around my W... and a lot of the time, I was faking it!

I would always remind myself of this...

Who wants to be around someone who is sad and depressed???

Do you? Of course not.

Don't be THAT person... be someone that EVERYONE wants to be around!

And actually, if you fake that stuff enough, it becomes much more natural... it puts you in a good mood.

I know it's just an act for her too. I've seen some sadness in her eye here and there. I know she's struggling too. Why can't we just be honest with one another and tell each other how we feel?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but she has told you how she feels. She wants a S.... AND, you've told her that you don't. Sounds like you guys have told each other how each of you feels.

When it comes to "talking too much", you got that right. I need to learn to STFU. the thing is if we're in the same room and I dont say anything, we end up having one of these very long uncomfortable silences which eventually leads me to leave the room, almost with my tail between my legs. Another victory for W.

Again, nothing wrong with light convo when around W. Just stay away from R talk. When you are away from her, don't initiate convo at all. Let her come to you.

My feeling now is that 2 years ago, when she started the EA, I managed to stop it at that. Then I insisted she left the band (EA was/is with the drummer) and told her it was a deal breaker. so now, I think she wants to see what she missed out on and that's why she came back to this city. In fact, she probably contacted OM while i was away in my own country and i suspect that it was the catalyst for the separation.

If this is true, her feelings for OM will have to be resolved before there is any chance at true reconciliation.

For some reason you seemed to be getting a lot more support back then than I do now. I feel like it takes forever for me to get any kind of feedback on this thread. I know that at the beginning you switched thread a few times out of frustration. I'm wondering if i should just start a new thread myself.

Maybe it's DB's way to teach us patience.

A good way of looking at it I suppose. I know that i had a lot of the vets take an interest in my situation at times. I will always appreciate that for sure. But, it can become overwhelming. Mostly because, many times, they don't agree with one another. The bottom line is that you have to take what you learn here, the unique nature of your situation that only you know, and do your best.

Only start a new thread when the old one gets to be 100 posts. It won't do you any good.

The way that I usually looked at posting here was that I was journaling. I'd suggest that you look at it that way too. There is no magic potion that any one here is going to be able to provide for you.

I also got a lot of good info from Sandi2. i found it really helpful to get the insider's perspective on things. I wouldn't mind if she gave me a bit of her no-nonsense wisdom. On this I was wondering if you think you W was MLC. After reading loads on the subject, i really think mine is. Does it make a difference?

Thanks for your help.

Remember that the posters here are not always around. They don't get paid to keep up with everyone. They are paying it forward so to speak.

Sandi is great! I certainly wouldn't hesitate seeking her out here on the board and asking her to take a look at your situation. I think that she can probably be found on the piecing forum or maybe the MLC forum.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks MrBond,

We are not in D procedures (yet). In fact, W said that she didn't care about divorce papers. So I guess what you are saying is that limbo/uncertainty for me is better than to get her to eventually say/do something under pressure, which might end up being final?

that's my take on it. She's been asking for reasonable changes in you for a long time. You finally seem to be making some of them but now after 1 or 2 WEEKS of being in the same company around each other,

you want to corner her and give her an ultimatum?

Oh I know I know, you'll call it a "boundary". But ask yourself what your real goal is here.

And did you read what the DB books said about this?

Also, fwiw, your whole timeline for this experience, from the few weeks of being around each other, to the "NC" for a matter of DAYS...is such a SHORT SHORT timeline, I shake my head. Remember this-

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

Don't push for answers you don't want,

especially when some time and space and a lot more patience, might have gotten you to your goal.



Thanks Denver,

I tend to agree with the friendship issue as well, although i do find it a scary place to be. I have seen the list of 37 DB ideas to follow and i do agree with all of them, until I go onto "fear mode" (which is often these days).

I guess I was thinking about setting "boundaries" for our separation. I've seen that word kick around quite a bit in DB. I just thought that a well defined separation might work better than just leaving without talking about it. This is very frustrating. I guess this is all what I want, not what SHE wants. And for the time being what i want should be coming from me and not from her.

Um...okay...well, I saw the list of things you want to tell her that you want...I saw a whole lot about what YOU WANT...most sentences began with "I want to tell her I want x"...

how does that sound to you when you read it?

Do you think it makes your changes look real or permanent?

Do YOU think they are?

Are there ways to discuss this without a list of terms that make it look as if you are again dictating to her what YOU want?

She said she's okay not ever getting a divorce.

TO ME-that screams of a woman wanting to know if she can trust your changes.

Her fear is you'll go back to the way things were (and things weren't too good for her or your d w/your past behaviors. Don't gloss over that stuff b/c it's KEY).

But if she could trust that the changes she sees in you-- are going to continue, and that you could grow together and as one, then wow...what a life you could live, together...

[25yearsmlc]

I'm suddenly wondering if I'm on the right thread. Is there more than one? I've posted, I THINK, twice on this poster's thread but now can't find my long one...dang.

Oh btw, this is why folks like me need just one thread. I get confused as to what I've said to whom.
Bummer...

[Arsene]

Thanks Denver,

It's comforting to know you're around. Again, I can relate to a lot of the way you felt/feel, about marriage and standing for it being a matter of integrity. My standing for my marriage in the face of adversity helps me define the person I am/want to be. I got married for better or for worst, I took the better now what kind of a man would i be if I ran at the first sign of the worst.

I read a book about 10 years ago, just before I met my wife and it changed my life. It's called Conversation with God by Neile Walsh. It's not a religious book but a spiritual one and there's a parable in there that always stood in my mind.

It's the candle in the sun. While in the presence of the sun, the little candle was barely seen but when it became surrounded by darkness, only then was is able to shine its true light and show how bright it was. The darkness allowed the candle to shine and therefore, the candle shouldn't forsake the darkness surrounding it but embrace it for allowing the discovery of how bright the candle really was.

This is darkness which will allow me to show myself the kind of man I am. And although I don't always feel strong lately, I keep telling myself that without this, i wouldn't have begun my journey towards the man I want to be, and in a strange way, I am thankful to my W for this.

You tell me that W and I have already told each other what we want but I also know that I shouldn't believe a word she says. Somehow, what i read from the recent "twist" in my sitch is that she is noticing some of my changes (and yes 25YearMLC, I hear what you say - I do slip quite often but I also have victories and many of the 180s I've done are now becoming 2nd nature) and I think she might be panicking. I sense so much uncertainty in her and a need to run away not to face this situation. I also sense a lot of guilt (and I I've been very careful not to add to it). My theory is that she knows I'm working hard on this and she is now finding it difficult to "monsterize" me.

When I wrote that "she rambled on an answer" when I asked why she wanted a divorce now, I didn't mean it to devalue her but she was really lost for words and scraping the bottom of the barrel for something to tell me. I think she was expecting me to lose it and to start begging or telling her what to do, or judging her or even making her feel guilty but I didn't (at least i hope I didn't). I kept my head (mostly - I shouldn't have mentioned the dressing up incident) and tried to validate her feellings while stating my point of view. When pushed, I asked for time to think about it.

I think the same thing happened with her text about finance. The old me would have been all over her but there, I again validated her feeling, and in fact, agreed with them and used this opportunity to add something to my list of things to work on.

I'm not trying to read too much of all this, In the end, i guess it shouldn't matter whether we are divorced or not. She told me that it was important for her to have closure and to know where she stands. I thought she did but I see that she is confused on this as well.

This and the admission of OM will make things more difficult, for her and for me but at this time, it doesn't alter my decision to stand.

I am still going to go through my 180s, for myself and I am still going to GAL, for myself and my D8.

I am confident that OM will not be a permanent fixture. After all he has already abandoned 1 wife and 2 children and he's a musician who thinks he's pretty hot stuff. He's likely to get tired of a 40-year-old woman and trade her in for a newer model(I, myself, love the classic cut of the older model. I find them a lot sexier and reliable, in the end ). Somehow, I suspect W knows that but the monster in her didn't care for the moment.

I would love some opinions on whether I should go ahead and give her the divorce or resist it as much as I can. I will nonetheless seek legal advice, about the divorce laws in this country and the options available to me because after this bomb, I half expect that she will now go after D8 for custody (maybe not but she definitely knows that would get my attention).

Thank you all again for reading me. I appreciate your input and advice, no matter how hard it sometimes is to accept and to follow.

[needgrace]

hi arsene, i love your parable about the candle. thank you for sharing it.

[Denver_2010]

I would love some opinions on whether I should go ahead and give her the divorce or resist it as much as I can. I will nonetheless seek legal advice, about the divorce laws in this country and the options available to me because after this bomb, I half expect that she will now go after D8 for custody (maybe not but she definitely knows that would get my attention).

What I told my W on December 24, 2010:

"I've told you before that I still love u and still think that we an have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I have not changed my mind on that. But I understand that you are not happy, that u don't feel happy or complete inside. U need to do what will make u happy. By my side, we can be partners and will share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team. but I won't stand in your way, but also won't help u leave this marriage or our family. I hope that u do find happiness u r looking for. go do what u need to do. You know where I will be."

Hurts to go back and find that sh!t

Denver