Should I initiate R talk?

[Arsene]

Thanks Roughenough,

I think I got good advice but I'm not sure I was wise enough to put it in practice. Like you, I did have some sort of "game plan" but I think it fell apart the second she opened her mouth. I feel like a drug addict who found an old stash minutes after promising himself he'd go clean. I don't think I passed the DB test. I'm still going over the events of yesterday and I'm going to write my thoughts soon. I was just wondering if anyone had a link where I could learn about Cake-eating. I think that's what happened yesterday. I fell like an old fool.

[Denver_2010]

""Really? what have you discovered? What are you doing to change them?" When she asks like that, my answer can hardly be taken as pursuing, right?"

Stop over-analyzing everything. Look, you're never going to be able to get an answer for everything she's going to or not going to ask. Just be yourself and be genuine.

But do it in a way that is not pursuing, pressuring or being a pushover! LOL!

Bond is right. Listen man, this stuff is hard. You're going to make mistakes. IMO, the best way to approach it is this:

1) Mainly just listen to your W and validate her feelings. The less that you say right now, the better.

2) At the same time, have a positive mental attitude and always act 'as if' you are happy and light. No one wants to be with someone who is depressed and in the dumps.

3) When you do engage your W in conversation, after you have listened and validated, try to be the one who ends the convo. Also try to be the one who ends the convo even when it is not R talk.

4) When asked a direct question, be truthful, genuine as Bond said... but be direct in the answer.

The thing that i think many of us get into trouble with is we start talking too much. We get into a lot of trouble when we are the ones doing the talking. JMO.

Denver

[Arsene]

Thanks Denver. I read you loud and clear. I'll be back soon with update. Boy I can't wait to start C. I feel like I'm falling apart. Cheers!

[unbidden]

Cadet gave me the visual of putting duct tape on my mouth. Totally helped me remember to STFU.

[Arsene]

Well, these are my thoughts on what happened when I came out of NC a few days ago. As I mentioned, W was all smile when I got there and we had R talk where she asked many Qs which I answered. She got emotional and held my hand, I got emotional too.

She told me how hard it was to find work these days (it’s the Muslim holy month of Ramadan and all the bars are closed) and how she wanted to start busking (playing on the street for small change) but her friends advised against it as they say it is selling herself cheap (she really is a great singer). To this she answers that she needs the money. I have to tell you that in this country, street performers and not well seen and are I small step above beggars. We talked about our financial difficulties (I haven’t worked for three months because I went to visit my family in my own country) and how little money we had left.

She said she had an appointment to go try a small scooter she’s thinking about buying to get around and said she was thinking of selling the car. This came as a surprise because we’d discussed that in the past and agreed not to sell it as it is a means for us to do stuff with D8 (camping and other trips). Also, this car was bought by her dad 30 years ago and we all love it. It’s an old beat-up jeep which came to her when her dad died 15 years ago. Her dad had loved it and we put a lot of work on it ourselves. We travelled throughout the country with it. In my mind, selling it would only be a temporary fix, and I’m not sure when we’d be able to get another car. She said that she couldn’t maintain the car because it was too expensive so I volunteered to help with that. The thing is, she works until late at night and I wouldn’t want her to go home at 2 am on a small scooter. It is a relatively safe country but nonetheless, women out at that time of night are thought to be prostitutes and are sometimes the victims of self-important idiots who think it’s their right to judge and punish sinners. In my opinion, her personal safety is more important than any DB.

Now the thing is, I had decided to try my hand at music for a living, since it had been our original plan before I left for my country. I told myself, why should I give up my dream because she acts this way? This had been a shock to her when I’d announced it because she had thought I’d go back to my old job (teacher) and make decent money to take care of all the bills. As it turns out, if I try music, I won’t be making that much money either (but I’d make enough for D8 and myself to have a good, simple life) which means that W would actually have to contribute. We counted that she’d need to pay about a quarter of her wages to help out (I’d be putting at least 3 to 4 times that much). This would end up being a real burden to her as musicians don’t really make all that much (I myself was planning on doing a few private lessons on the side to help supplement the income). This means that she probably would have to take on students and take ANY gig which comes her way. As my W, while I was n salary, she only took the ones she liked and used the rest of her time practicing her voice, guitar and harmonica (which is a full time job in itself) but now, she’d have no time to grow. This is not why I decided to do this but in a way, I thought it might make her realize more quickly, the life she is walking towards.

But now, after hearing how bad her situation is/will be. After her wanting to go busking and sell the car, I told her I would try to find a job so I can help (as a foreigner, my earning potential is much higher than hers – about tenfold). She said I didn’t have to. That things would work themselves out, but that she thought it might be a good idea just in case.

After that we ended up going to look at the scooter anyways and had a look at a few houses for me and D8 (our house is actually rented till next March) on my new (2nd hand) motorbike. W and I did a lot of touring on motorbike in the past and always had a great time so it was nice to be on a bike again with her. I don’t know how she felt but I have to say that it felt really nice to feel her holding on to me as I accelerated. We had a look at a few houses and drove around until it was time to pick up D8 from school.

After that, we spent the afternoon together and had a wonderful time, laying in bed (in the room I’m renting until I find a place), all three of us and laughing and joking like in the old days. Eventually, at 5 pm W had to go as she was working that evening (she’s a singer) and D8 started to cry which broke W’s heart. Before leaving, she gave me a nice big (loving?) hug which I returned.

The funny thing is, as soon as she left, I got thinking and felt like I’d been “suckered”. The next day, she didn’t call me but called D8 (W had gotten her a cheap pay-as-you-go cell phone “for emergencies”) and I had no news other than that.

This morning, we had a parents’ meeting at school to which we’d discussed her coming because I don’t speak the language that well, and she didn’t show up. When I got home with D8 after the meeting, W was home. She was cordial but didn’t mention the meeting until D8 asked me about it and I told her that I hadn’t understood everything. W then said “Oh, you should have told me, I could have come. But I thought we’d decided that you’d go by yourself.” I told her that, No, we hadn’t and that I thought she was going to be there but that there was no harm done as I managed to get the info through some of the other parents who speak English.

She then spent the day here with D8 and every time we were in the same room (since we’re in a boarding house it’s difficult not to be), it got very uncomfortable. At times, we’d just sit quietly without a word being exchanged until I’d just leave and go to the bedroom to play my guitar. I probably should have found an excuse to leave the house just to get away but I had nowhere to go (the few friends I have here were all busy) and I guess, I was(Argggg! I know!!!) hoping for another days like we’d had before.

W and D8 just left to go visit one of her friends, I made sure to be out of the way. I didn’t want to be anywhere where she might try to hug me. I feel like she probably does it because she thinks I expect it. Besides, she kind of got what she wanted from me now so I don’t expect any signs of affection until times get tough again.

I’m ready to detach. I just need to know how. It’s difficult now as I realize I’m still in denial. I still can’t understand why we’re not together.

I tried to get DB/DR through a friend who went to Singapore but she didn’t find them. I don’t know if I can have them delivered here (courier is not reliable at all) so I was wondering if there was an ebook version of them that I could buy online and download.

I’d love to hear any advice/new perspective (I know, I didn’t really take it the last time it was given but I’m awake now)

Denver, I started reading your sitch and I’m so glad things seem to be going well for you. Seeing the way you were at the beginning made me think a bit about the way I feel now, so I guess there is hope. It looks like in the end you did well. What kind of music does your W sing?

Unbidden, thanks for the idea. I think I’ll try that next time.

MrBond, I’m sure the words “I told you so” are on your lips and rightfully so. I think I f@#$ed up. I feel drained. I can’t wait for the C appointment next week.

[Arsene]

I went our while W was out with D8. Just acting "as if". I didn't want her to come back and find me where she'd left me. I put on some new clothes I'd gotten recently and made myself look good and just left. I now realise that having been away from this city for a while (we lived in another country all of last year)I don't really have many friends left here. Most of the local friends we had are mainly hers and the few friends I have here were all either out of town or busy so i just drove around town on my bike. I went to a gallery and sat in a park for a bit, I then went to a cafe and tried to think about how I should do things from now on. Put a lot of thought on my 180s and GAL ideas. Even went online on my phone and read a few threads on this site about detaching.

Around 9:30 pm i decided to come back home, figuring W and D8 would be back by now and they were. They were playing "snakes and ladders" on the bed and asked me to join them for a game so i did. I was cheerful and so were they and we had a good time. Still noticed that W was distant so I matched her mood and I tried to be kind and distant as well (with W, not with D8). Nonetheless, we had a good time. W then told D8 a story before bedtime while I rubbed D8's feet and then, W's phone rang.

She usually answers it in the room but this one, she went just out of the room (for 10 seconds) and came back in. Then she laid down next to D8 and hugged her but i sensed the mood had changed so I left the room and went to have a bite to eat in the living room, trying to be as casual as possible. She then came out of the room and went to take a shower, came out and started dressing up from the clothes she'd worn during the day (shorts and an old T-shirt) to some of the clothes she used to wear to go out. Then she put on some make up and used mouth rinse, all the stuff you do before going out on a date, and she took her merry time as well. By that time, I was waiting by the door to let her out, again, acting as casual as i could. When she walked out the door I said "Have a nice night out" and as she walked away, she said "Are you ok?" I said "yeah!don't I look ok?" and closed the door on her, again as casually as possible.

Now, my heart is in pain. I hurt so much just to think of it. I need to move on. Get away from her. She's poisoning me and I think she's liking it. I need help.

[Arsene]

I fell like I have to do or say something. I'd like to tell her how I disagree with her having an A and how she's being selfish to flaunt it in my face. I want to tell how no matter what she claims i did or didn't do in our M, that at least, it was not consciously whereas what she is doing is intentional and just mean. I want to tell her that she's not going to find herself in the arms of OM, she's just going to lose herself again, and maybe even lose me in the process. I want to tell her all of that and so much more... I want to tell her that... I love her no matter what and that I choose to stand by her, by our M, even if it's the most painful thing I have ever done.

Of course, I won't tell her any of this. Instead, I'm not going to tell her anything. I'm going to live my life and rebuild my family, my pride and my self-esteem. I'm going to detach myself from the situation so that I can be calm and kind when she is around and so that I don't feel angered or depressed by her every action or word. I'm going to carry on living for myself and my little girl and become the person I want to be.

Here are some issues I need to work on:

!. I need to control my anger - I have been doing very well with this over the last 2 months since I started meditating once a day. I might need to do it twice a day after today's relapse.

2. I need to stop using guilt as a means of manipulation - I've made a huge effort to try to catch myself before saying something which might cause guilt (sometimes to manipulate and sometimes just to make a point).

3. I need to stop criticizing and judging people - Again, I've made huge efforts to catch my words and my thoughts as they occured.

4. I need to become more patient - I try to predict instances when my patience would be tested and once I'm conscious of it, it's easier to handle. I also focus on my breathing if I get in a situation where I could become impatient.

5. I need to stop expecting people to behave by my standards - in fact, I think I just need to stop having expectations - easier said than done but nonetheless, I've been trying to do and say things without hoping for an answer or action in return

6. I need to talk less and listen more - So far, I totally failed at this one.

7. I need to learn to feel compassion and empathy - meditation has helped in this one. I also try to see the other person's perspective instead of judging or forming an opinion.

8. I need to learn generosity - I try to give as often as I can, which doesn't come naturally for me. I think I've been doing well on this one, especially considering how little I've got left.

9. I need to stop feeling sorry for myself - and that needs to happen now! GAL will help. Getting a job will too. I feel very alone in the city where I live now. I need to rebuild my circle of friends. This will happen once I get a job and start some classes (I've been thinking about Tai Chi lessons as well as lessons in the local language)

10. I need to be kind to all - This is something which I try to implement every hour of everyday. Whenever I am around people, I smile at them and engage them. this is a bit difficult as I don't speak the language very well but it's helping me learn it and people respond very positively. It feels good to do this.

It seems like such a tall order and I'm sure a lot of this will come up at my first C session next Tuesday.

I've been reading a lot on this site and it's been helpful but I could also use input/feedback from others. Thanks for being there.

[Arsene]

Bond is right. Listen man, this stuff is hard. You're going to make mistakes. IMO, the best way to approach it is this:

1) Mainly just listen to your W and validate her feelings. The less that you say right now, the better.

2) At the same time, have a positive mental attitude and always act 'as if' you are happy and light. No one wants to be with someone who is depressed and in the dumps.

3) When you do engage your W in conversation, after you have listened and validated, try to be the one who ends the convo. Also try to be the one who ends the convo even when it is not R talk.

4) When asked a direct question, be truthful, genuine as Bond said... but be direct in the answer.

The thing that i think many of us get into trouble with is we start talking too much. We get into a lot of trouble when we are the ones doing the talking. JMO.

Denver

Hi Denver,

I think I'm about half way through your threads and it's comforting to see that you felt the same as I do at one time. Last night, after W left, I just broke down and couldn't stop myself from crying and I almost woke up D8 at one point. Since I'm now in a boarding house, it's hard to find a private place to let go of these emotions.

Regarding your advice up there, I realised that I can't listen to my wife as she doesn't really talk about herself. She sometimes asks me how I'm doing but never volunteers anything about her life.

About the positive attitude and the Act "as if". I try to do that but I must be very bad at it because the other day, even D8 asked me why I was sad or upset, then wife also asked and I went on the defensive telling them I was fine. Last night as well, I was trying to get W out as soon as possible but it's like she was enjoying seeing me suffer. Like she was putting this on just for me. Taking her merry time with her make up and mouth wash and making sure she got a last glimpse in the mirror before leaving. I wanted to go and leave her to it but i had to let her out of the boarding house and of course by then I couldn't act anymore. She won that round as well.

Seeing her so strong and me so weak makes me sick. I know it's just an act for her too. I've seen some sadness in her eye here and there. I know she's struggling too. Why can't we just be honest with one another and tell each other how we feel?

When it comes to "talking too much", you got that right. I need to learn to STFU. the thing is if we're in the same room and I dont say anything, we end up having one of these very long uncomfortable silences which eventually leads me to leave the room, almost with my tail between my legs. Another victory for W.

My feeling now is that 2 years ago, when she started the EA, I managed to stop it at that. Then I insisted she left the band (EA was/is with the drummer) and told her it was a deal breaker. so now, I think she wants to see what she missed out on and that's why she came back to this city. In fact, she probably contacted OM while i was away in my own country and i suspect that it was the catalyst for the separation.

I guess it doesn't matter anymore anyways. The fact is that I'm in this sitch and I don't know if I can manage on my own. For some reason you seemed to be getting a lot more support back then than I do now. I feel like it takes forever for me to get any kind of feedback on this thread. I know that at the beginning you switched thread a few times out of frustration. I'm wondering if i should just start a new thread myself.

Maybe it's DB's way to teach us patience.

I also got a lot of good info from Sandi2. i found it really helpful to get the insider's perspective on things. I wouldn't mind if she gave me a bit of her no-nonsense wisdom. On this I was wondering if you think you W was MLC. After reading loads on the subject, i really think mine is. Does it make a difference?

Thanks for your help.

[Arsene]

I've been trying to get through with my day and it's hard t stay focused. I've got these great resolutions but I'm finding hard to keep them.

The main thing I feel right now is anger. So much anger, and pain. I tried meditation this morning but i wasn't able to get my mind off things. I'll try again later on today.

The thing that worked is when I did my exercise. I pushed myself hard and channeled my anger that way. The thing is, having not slept at all last night, my energy level doesn't allow me to do this all day.

A friend's given me some sleeping pills so I'll try tonight if i can't fall asleep. I don't really want to though but I need to get some sleep or I won't last.

I've been forcing myself to eat even though I'm not hungry. It's a good thing I've got D8 to take care of. It forces me to take care of myself.

W text this morning, overly happy (Good morning Arsene! Can you tell D8 to charge her phone? Thx. Have a nice day!). I now realise that she got D8 the phone so she wouldn't have to go through me to talk to her. I guess that's good, for all three of us. I replied as cheerfully as her (Good Morning W. It's charging now. Have a nice day!)

I'm going to a mall with D8 and some friends of mine(with kids)to set the kids loose in a playground this afternoon. There will be some people there i don't know so it'll help me avoid R talk with my friend. This is good. I need some time off.

If anyone has a trick to help me sleep that doesn't involve pills, I'm listening.

I hope someone answers soon. I'm desperate for input on my sitch. This hurts much more than i thought it would. I think I just crossed the line from denial/bargaining into full on anger. I've got to regain control of my emotions. I can't let the kid see me like this. She already heard me mumble stuff (not very nice stuff about W) but I'm pretty sure she didn't hear what I said. She didn't look like she did. I got to regain control. I feel like all this time wed been going up the roller coaster track and all of a sudden the ground disappeared from under me. I got my stomach in my throat. My face is tense from fighting off the tears.

I'll come back later. Please talk to me someone!

[Arsene]

Just got back from the mall. it was great to see D8 playing with her friends. I felt almost normal talking to people about something other than my sitch, although after a while, I was aching to do so and my heart tightened. I just couldn't focus on the people present. Nonetheless, I met someone new and it was nice to talk about different things. He's into motorcycles and had one similar to the one I used to have so I actually escaped for a while and had an hour of relative peace, talking about motorbikes. He's also in the same business as me (teaching) and he might be able to throw some work my way so overall it was a good afternoon. My friend was also there and I wished we could have had some time alone to just let it out. I feel like I've been poisoned by a secret I can't share with anyone. There is no one there to listen to me. I feel so lonely right now.

It's funny how you go from a moment of strength to total pathetic self-pity without seeing it coming. I don't know what caused the change in me this afternoon but it happened. Almost like wanting that cigarette at the appointed time soon after you quit smoking. Is that what it is? Am I addicted? If so, what is my addiction? My W or the pain I feel? Is this part of the withdrawal symptoms I'm feeling right now? If that is the case, then there is relief in sight, at some point in the future. Hopefully sooner than later.

I still feel anger towards her. Towards her insensitivity last night. But then again, isn't it just a game we're playing? Last night, I, myself left looking very nice, wearing a new T-shirt which showed off my newly acquired, MLC-diet body. And on my arrival, she actually commented positively on it as well. Was she just getting even? Playing my game? If that's what she was doing, she definitely scored a point there. She's much better at this game than I am and I bow to her expertise. Maybe i should just get out of the game while it's still time. While I still have a shred of sanity.

No. I will stand. Because my love in unconditional (thanks Denver for your inspiration). I will love her, silently, from a safe distance. Far enough not to be subjected to the venom of her moods but still close enough for her to see the light when the time comes, if it comes. Belief is a strong emotion. I guess that I might no longer be in denial but I'm not sure if I'll ever reach acceptance. Our R was a good one. The best I'd seen in my life, among friends and family. I used to consider myself blessed for it, now, I feel like I'm damned.

In the tradition started by Denver here is a song which hits the mark at this moment and which, ironically, my W used to sing when we were in our duet. I would hope right now, to put a bit of humanity back into the person I love, that it's the way she feels at this moment.


I’m just the pieces of the man I used to be
Too many bitter tears are raining down on me
I’m far away from home
And I’ve been facing this alone
For much too long

I feel like no-one ever told the truth to me
About growing up and what a struggle it would be
In my tangled state of mind
I’ve been looking back to find
Where I went wrong

Too much love will kill you
If you can’t make up your mind
Torn between the lover
And the love you leave behind
You’re headed for disaster
‘cos you never read the signs
Too much love will kill you
Every time

I’m just the shadow of the man I used to be
And it seems like there’s no way out of this for me
I used to bring you sunshine
Now all I ever do is bring you down

How would it be if you were standing in my shoes
Can’t you see that it’s impossible to choose
No there’s no making sense of it
Every way I go I bound to lose

Too much love will kill you
Just as sure as none at all
It’ll drain the power that’s in you
make you plead and scream and crawl
And the pain will make you crazy
You’re the victim of your crime
Too much love will kill you
Every time

"Queen"