Is this cake eating 7

[NLW]

Cat and labug, thanks for helping me through this. Your understanding and advice is good for my soul.

I need to journal the following. I get so confused if i don't get it out of my head and onto the page as it were.

The kids are back at school today and i was waiting to see if h would re-new his usual practice of ringing me to ask when he should pick them up from school.

Sure enough, he rang, and also asked if i'd come and have a coffee with him to discuss some stuff.
I felt sick and asked him what he wanted to talk about. He just said some stuff that we needed to do.

I raced around and got myself looking PDH (pretty damn hot). Thought, if I have to do this (discuss the D), he might as well remember me at my best.

He arrived and I was happy and cheerful and he drove us to the cafe.
We chatted non-stop about what we'd been doing - it was a big catch-up session.

The only vaguely R topic he mentioned was to ask me whether I'd thought any more about moving to the UK. This related to something I'd said in our big R discussion just before he left for NZ - we spent an hour on the phone while I was sitting outside of the dentist's and we talked about how hurt he had been and about forgiving each other. I said I'd been thinking about taking a job in the UK - to give myself and the kids a new start (and to get out of the pressure cooker atmosphere of having him cohabiting on our doorstep with OW).

I said it on the spur of the moment and hoped afterwards that it hadn't sounded like a threat. I just said it was something I'd been thinking about and wondered how he'd feel about the kids going with me.
At the time he responded really positively, saying it would be a great opportunity for them.

Today he asked again (for the second time in a week - it was obviously a big deal for him even though he had only encouraging things to say to me) if I'd thought any more about it.

This time I said I had. That i'd been thinking carefully and had realised that this would just be running away from my problems. That I realised that if i wanted to feel better about my life, i had to start by looking within and focusing on making myself a better person. That even if I moved away, I'd still be there with the same old issues if I didn't continue to try to make significant changes within myself.

I told him it was a bit of a fantasy, really, to think that things could be better for me just by moving to a 'new' life.

(too obvious? Well maybe, but also, actually what I think about the only way I'm going to get through this)

He went very quiet. Then he said that was true for anyone.

He never broached any other subject relating to our sitch - much to my relief.
It came time to pick up the kids so he said he had to run to get them. As he was dropping me back home, he did say could he come by sometime and pick up some clothes. I just said Yeah, sure anytime.

Holey h-ll where is this all going.

[NLW]

One thing that's been bugging me since last night.

I don't think I've ever, in this whole mess, doubted that my H will come back to me sometime in the future.

This just hit me like a ton of bricks last night.

I just 'know' he's going to come back eventually.

But realising that I'm thinking like this, deep down, made me really worried.

Am I just in complete denial?
He is LIVING WITH OW now. Time to wake up, NLW.

Is this how stalkers and crazy, dangerous people think?

I sort of kid myself that i'm just like Laura Munson ('I just don't buy it that he wants to leave') or AliSuddenly who stood by her BF through thick and thin and never wavered in her love for him.

Is my pathetic 'stuck' attitude holding me back from moving on?

Or is having 'hope' necessary to keep DB-ing in the face of really tough times?

Really appreciate some perspectives on this. E.g., do most people feel this way?

[25yearsmlc]

gosh that's a hard question b/c what you are really asking us

is whether you are in denial, which you MIGHT be, or whether there is still hope

and on this site, most people won't ever say there's no hope.

I have had 2 relatives divorce and later remarry their exes, so that does happen.

But NLW, he's LIVING WITH OW??

Okay then, why aren't you moving forward?

Can you imagine a happy life, but without him in it?

B/C if you cannot, that's a problem.

See, if my h of 31 years dropped dead tomorrow, I'd grieve a lot for a long time.
We've been married so much of our lives...
If it had not been for DBing, I would not know that I can grieve and survive and then thrive.

So yes I'd be damn sad. But not forever.

I have children watching me to see how to process grief and Not let it consume me

and how we choose our happiness...so if my sadness got to me too much,

OR if I could not find it IN ME to get up to create a happy life for myself


I'd hope that my love for them would wake me up...and I'd move on.


Moving on, meeting other people, and admitting that you and your h
MIGHT NOT reconcile-

but KNOWING that you'll be fine anyhow, is what I'm suggesting.

Make sense?

You can shut the door but not lock it. That way you don't keep staring at it...waiting for his knock.

Another metaphor is for

you to swim to the other side and that usually requires you NOT looking over your shoulder at the shore you left behind, or you wont' get to the other side...

but he'll know how to reach you if he wants to join you. HE can swim too.

But you do need to stop waiting. Life is short. How do you want your years to be spent?

Plus, IF there is anything YOU CAN DO to affect his position, it's moving on.

Waiting around sure has not worked, correct?

So what are your GAL plans?

[NLW]

Hey 25, So glad to hear from you again!

gosh that's a hard question b/c what you are really asking us

is whether you are in denial, which you MIGHT be, or whether there is still hope

and on this site, most people won't ever say there's no hope.

I have had 2 relatives divorce and later remarry their exes, so that does happen.

But NLW, he's LIVING WITH OW??

Yep, he is. Does this put me in some sort of 'very unlikely to reconcile' category?
I'm really wondering - I'm not sure how often this applies to people on these boards. Seems like most WASs might have an OP, but not many of them seem to go straight to a live-in relationship so soon. But my H is full-blown MLC.

Also, financially, he has no option but to live with someone else. He literally has no money/credit to rent a place of his own.
He was staying with a male friend for a while but I guess that got stale pretty quick.

Okay then, why aren't you moving forward?

Can you imagine a happy life, but without him in it?

B/C if you cannot, that's a problem.

Yes, i can imagine a happy life without him in it. But I'd prefer that he is in our future. At least the version of him that he used to be before he started going financially irresponsible in his MLC.
I just can't seem to shake the idea that I love him regardless of all the sh_t that he's put us through.

Moving on, meeting other people, and admitting that you and your h
MIGHT NOT reconcile-

but KNOWING that you'll be fine anyhow, is what I'm suggesting.
[/color]
Make sense?

Yes it does. I'm presuming that i'll be served with D papers as soon as the 12-month waiting period is up in a couple of weeks' time. Before D, however, i consider myself married and would not seek out a relationship with someone else.

You can shut the door but not lock it. That way you don't keep staring at it...waiting for his knock.

Another metaphor is for

you to swim to the other side and that usually requires you NOT looking over your shoulder at the shore you left behind, or you wont' get to the other side...

but he'll know how to reach you if he wants to join you. HE can swim too.

But you do need to stop waiting. Life is short. How do you want your years to be spent?

Plus, IF there is anything YOU CAN DO to affect his position, it's moving on.

Waiting around sure has not worked, correct?

Well, I'm not really just waiting around. I go out and do stuff (gym, dog training and walking, heaps of stuff with my kids' 2 schools, lots of sports and activities on weekends, movies) and I have a full-time professional people-oriented job. And as far as he knows, i do have a life.

And things do seem to be working in respect of him lately. He is much nicer, friendlier, has flirted quite outrageously, is complimentary, has taken to phoning all the time and is asking me out to coffee again. He is happy to come inside our house (used to wait out on the front porch and refuse to enter) and has even taken to doing things around the house again. I can see real progress - even though it is just baby steps.

So what are your GAL plans?

More of the same, i suppose. When it warms up a bit in the next couple of months, i'm going to check out a rowing club. I just really want to meet some male company too. Not to sound desperate, but i am lonely (and craving intimacy).

Just hope i don't sound like some sort of nutter. Really, what more could he do to shaft me, and yet ... I just can't give up. Cause in my heart, i know that this is not really him. He's in crisis and I just have to stick it out for him for a while yet.

Mind you, if I met someone nice in the meantime, I'm sure I'd be tempted.

[needgrace]

Hi NLW,

I have similar feelings.. that nothing my W is doing makes sense and the belief that one day she will realize it all ...

you are definitely not alone.

i love the metaphors that 25 provided.. the door, swimming to the other side.. especially the swimming one in that we grow so much as the LBS that there is a good amount of catching up that our spouses must do.. especially if they have run into MLC and have not faced their demons.

another interesting way to think about it is the Stockdale Paradox. Cadet mentioned it once and you can google it.

((( )))

[NLW]

ng,

Thanks for letting me know you feel like this too. It helps!

I looked up the Stockdale paradox and it helped me believe that I'm on the right track.

“I never doubted ... that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade.”
BUT
Accept the reality of the situation. Know you are in hell, but, rather than bury your head in the sand, step up and do everything you can to lift your morale and enhance the lives of your family.

This is basically the DB creed.

At the moment, for me, thinking about 'prevailing in the end' is more to do with getting my family back together. But there are other ways to prevail, and I know I will do that come what may.

Thanks again for this great insight.

[bustorama]

Am I just in complete denial?
He is LIVING WITH OW now. Time to wake up, NLW.

The key to the Stockdale paradox (and to DB and to life, really) is ALWAYS to live in the present. ACCEPT AND LIVE based on your CURRENT reality, because that IS reality. Not what was past, not what you might hope or wish things would be like in the future.

Don't live per, "He is LIVING WITH OW now" (and may not be in the future).

Live per, "He is LIVING WITH OW." Period. Act as if he will be living with OW now, 1 year from now, 10 years from now. Because "his living with OW" is your brutal reality. Living otherwise is not accepting reality.

You might hope that things will be different. But you do not live based on that hope. You live based on your reality.

[bustorama]

This is highlighted in Stockdale's own words:

When asked, “Who did not survive?” he responded, “They were the ones who said, ‘We’re going to be out by Christmas.’ And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they’d say, ‘We’re going to be out by Easter.’ And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart …

Those prisoners were the ones who were denying the reality of their imprisonment and trying to live on hope of things being different, of not being imprisoned, of the imprisonment stopping.

Stockdale not only accepted that he was imprisoned, but he resolved to make it the defining moment of his life and to prevail in the end, whatever that meant.

In DB, this is accepting that your marriage is not only in crisis but already dead. But, you have faith that you, as an individual, will prevail in the end. You do not control whether it will be with a new marriage or just with your children. You can control that you prevail as an individual, just as Stockdale could not control the manner or duration of his imprisonment, but he could control how he handled and defined his imprisonment.

The Stockdale Paradox (faith that you will prevail + discipline to confront the most brutal facts of current reality)

[scaredsilly]

"Stockdale not only accepted that he was imprisoned, but he resolved to make it the defining moment of his life and to prevail in the end, whatever that meant."

THIS! IS WHY WE ARE THE LUCKY ONES.

[NLW]

Don't live per, "He is LIVING WITH OW now" (and may not be in the future).

Live per, "He is LIVING WITH OW." Period. Act as if he will be living with OW now, 1 year from now, 10 years from now. Because "his living with OW" is your brutal reality. Living otherwise is not accepting reality.

You might hope that things will be different. But you do not live based on that hope. You live based on your reality.

Hey Busto, Good to hear from you!

Bit of a rambling post coming.

I'm feeling a bit like I'm back where I started on this idea a few posts ago.

I admit that I have hope. I just can't shake the belief that my H will eventually want to come back to us.

But if i live totally on the basis of reality: that he is living with OW, surely I would not want to have anything to do with him?
And I certainly would not be wanting to try to 'seduce' him - as DB coaches so often suggest. This would be immoral.

My 'reality' is that I am dealing with a man who is in severe emotional turmoil and who is lost. If it were me going through this, I would hope that he'd have the desire to stick with me.

So, it's back to the old dilemma: Go dark/NC or be alluring, desirable, friendly compassionate, show unconditional love.

Certainly doing the latter seemed to work for OW. He told her it was over - definitely - and yet she hung around for several years, never gave up, and lured him back.

She didn't resign herself to the brutal reality that he had chosen his wife and children over her. She never lost an opportunity to reel him back.

I'm not trying to disagree with you or your take on Stockdale.
I get that H is gone.

Maybe I'll feel differently in about 10 days' time, when I presume the D papers will arrive: the 1-year anniversary of BD - which will also be our 16th wedding anniversary...

What I really want to ask is a little bit more info on what you mean by:
"Act as if he will be living with OW now, 1 year from now, 10 years from now."

Given that i have no choice but to accept this, and am being friendly, detached (as much as i can) and not pursuing, not sure if I am doing what you're suggesting.