and as an aside, thanks for that last comment cat04. that was kind of you.
in the spirit of divorce busting, i would like to say this: honesty with self and others is indeed a difficult thing. it seems part of the human condition that much of the feedback we receive about ourselves is negative - pointing out what is wrong. and even people who sincerely care about us can do this. sometimes such feedback is accurate, sometimes it is not. sometimes it is helpful, sometimes it is not.
and then there's our self-feedback or self-perception. if it's true that many of us have a hard time seeing our faults, it's equally true that most of us have a hard time seeing our virtues as well.
so what is it we want to grow, both within ourselves or others? if it is our strengths, assets and virtues then i would say that's what we pay attention to and build. the more we build those things, the more the other parts of us, the so called faults and weaknesses, die by extinction and lack of attention. as MWD would say, whatever you want to see more of, pay attention to.
in that spirit, i ask you rick, or any other contributor, to look at what has grown and what has changed for the better. what is it you have done that is demonstrably true because it involves some kind of observable behavior? to use a very simple example, you started going to church, no? or you can now interact with your W in more conscious and proactive ways, no? these are things you are building - like going to a gym.
anger is an impulse, a reaction. understanding where it comes from is not a bad thing if it helps you translate that into a purpose - treating people more kindly for instance. furthermore, i would agree with cat04 that when you work on a GAL strategy and other esteem building activities, it helps build your internal resources and this helps quiet the fears that stimulate anger. and it's also helpful to learn to manage yourself when you do feel angry so that you don't harm self or others. just understand, in my opinion, that anger is an impulse you will experience at times throughout your life if you are human. and to me, the internal feeling of anger is not pathological or wrong per se. its what happens after you experience it that really matters. yes, by all means - for your sake - do anything you can that reduces the experience of anger - your life will no doubt be better for that. but don't drive yourself crazy with self-judgment just because the impulse of anger occurs within you.
so....if you are interested, how about doing an inventory of those things you have done in the last 3 months that reflect progress - as measured by observable behaviors, large and small?
oys2, I think your point is well-taken. And I didn;t see the previous posts calling for self-judgment but rather self-awareness. Anger is not a "bad" emotion. What can be negative is the way the anger is expressed. Anger is the signal that something is wrong and looking deeper and dealing with those feelings can make for a happier more in control person.
We get in trouble when we ignore what the anger is trying to tell us.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Hi oys2 hope what I said did not come across as too confusing. I was trying to explain my reaction to something and what feelings I felt. Paying attention to me and my behavior at this level is pretty new and it keeps the focus on me and not W.
I agree that anger is normal . I too have normal anger some of the time. But what got me here is the explosive volcano in my heart that erupts from time to time ,that is the issue. That is not normal.
So their intervention helped me understand and hopefully others will understand their anger better. And how that anger manifests itself in their own lives.
I llike the idea of taking inventory. Will think about those things.
Thank you again
Ps the walking shoe thing had to be explained to me. Lol
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
and as an aside, thanks for that last comment cat04. that was kind of you.
Oys,
While I am not 100% positive what comment you were referring to, I am going to venture a guess that it was my comment about my intention behind my post to Rick.
He was quite right in his assesment that it was crafted in a way to throw him off balance. To elicit a specific response.
Not to be mean spirited, but to make him stop in his tracks and really think about where he was, where he is, and where he wants to go.
In the sprirt of DB, I will disagree with you. Honesty is not a difficult thing if we want to be self aware.
It is the most important part of communication that we too often choose to avoid. Because it often hurts. Because it isn't the "nice" thing to say all of the time. Because it requires us to look at ourselves, it asks us to judge ourselves, and it always asks us if we can do better than we are doing.
It is the lack of honesty with ourselves and our inability to communicate in honest ways (which can be done with kindness) that has gotten a lot of us here.
Based upon my experience with abusive situations, which is extensive, negative qualities do NOT just die by extinction from lack of attention, simply because we focus on our virtues.
They get buried. Waiting, like landmines, for something to detonate them if they are not unearthed and destroyed.
SBT, works well as an initial response to those negative things. It allows us to become aware of them, make changes that isolate the behaviors and begin the external changing, allowing us the time to do the digging and the internal work that will kill them permanently.
Rick, exhibits a learned behavior. That means he has to unlearn it. NOT ignore it. He will have to examine it and learn to find forgivness of himself (not judgement and guilt)(and for the people he learned it from) for doing what he could with the tools he had at the time. Then he can continue to move forward with his new tools, which will require him to do better.
Anger is a reaction. It is an emotion not an impulse. It masks the true emotion and gives us permission to not always behave well, because we are "human."
Yes we will all feel anger at times. It truly is what we do with it and what we learn from it that counts.
If we allow it to control us, then it can and too often does become pathalogical. That is evidenced daily when we turn on the news, the internet, open a newspaper. Anger is destructive.
To gloss over it, as if it is not important, is a mistake.
For me, DB and SBT, isn't simply about busting a divorce. It is about becoming a better person. It is about being able to look in the mirror, and either know that I am always giving my best, or being able to face myself and say "you need to do better" and then having the guts and the tools to do so.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
"My initial reaction was to intellectualize it. I knew you were trying for me to gain insight. But that was drowned by an overwhelming sense of humiliation followed by some anger."
I have been thinking about this^^^^for the last 2 days. Been having nighmares, maybe I am hitting some REM sleep which is a good thing.
Before the feeling of humiliation something else happened. When Cat brought me back to August and that I was the same person. That trigger an avalanche of thoughts.
This is what I remember hearing/thinking. I heard her say that I was full of crapp, lying, have made no progress, a complete failure. The thought of being a failure is what casued me to feel humiliated. This all happened at record speed. But Cat never said anything of those things?
I think this is the line of progression for me. So there would be 2 reactions for me when the above happened.
1- I would immediatetly react and express my displeasure with what I thought the person meant.
2- Store it away in my angry tank and brush it off.
Makes sense?
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
no problem rick! i was not confused....i understand your reaction of humiliation. i would have felt shame - so maybe that's the same.
we can all agree that anger - as manifested by behavior - can be harmful to self and others. we can all agree it is worth learning to manage it externally and internally. and if cat04's ideas help you with this, more power to you both! it's a good discussion if it has stimulated something that you find useful or helpful.
you are here, by definition, because you want to save your marriage. and by extension, you want to improve yourself. my main point, which i will try to state very simply, is that self-improvement works best when you feel like you are succeeding. that means you need to make an honest effort, achieve results and then measure yourself with a fair and realistic yardstick. i think you are succeeding, rick. and that's my main point.
It's one of those fleeting things that comes and goes from my thoughts... stays long enough to make an impact and then disappears and I forget what the "point was...
Every once in a while, I am reminded, and I find someone who might benefit from it:
"You can't know you've arrived until you've decided where you are going."
I had forgotten what my goals were. I hadn't written them down, likely because I wasn't sure or clear on what they were. Sometimes, my life's like that... I finally stop, look around and go... "oh yeah! This is where I wanted to be." It can be bliss sometimes, living in my brain...
Anyhow, I realized (or remembered) I had two, very certain goals:
+ I wanted to feel like my W wasn't controlling me any more
and conversely
+ I wanted to feel like I was in control of my life
@Cat and Mach thanks for the education @Oys2 thanks for the kind words @Kaffe I don't have an answer to that great question but hit me up in a few
I must put me aside for a bit. While eating dinner W tells me her brother gets his surgery tomorrow. At the same time MIL calls and W explains to her the prep I went through for my coniscopy she actually says Rick did that. After she hangs up with MIL she begins to ask me tons of questions. My father fought colon cancer since 2004 and died May 24 of last year. I really feel for her and BIL. He is only 49 . I answer as vaguely as I could because I don't know the outcome. I offer to help in anyway and I meant. It. I even reminded her about our 81yo niegbhor who had a colostomy bag and open a restaurant last year and is cancer free. She did not remember. I asked if she spoke to brother she tells she hasn't cause she does not know his number? Come on really???
While she asks me all Of these I just thought that when I was going through it she was not supportive. Or did not felt it. I hope I did this right and I hope he makescit.
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
