Dark Shadows on the Roller Coaster - ride cont's.

[sayitaintso]

I'm feeling for you 2!! You have given many people on here some great advice and sometimes we need to practice what we preach. If you come to a point when you are ready to throw in the towel than I'm sure we will all support you but I think you need to give this more time. I can only imagine how difficult it is to know that their is OM in the picture but I do believe when your w wakes up from her fog, whether it's too late or not, will realize what a great man you are.

You are one of the 1st sitch's I began to follow when I was in such a dark place and I've witnessed you come such a long way and gain so much personal perspective and wisdom. If you have the strength which I believe you do, keep detaching as much as possible. Just be there for you and your kids right now. Take the next weeks to consciously detach as much as you can and then re-evaluate.

Best!!

[sayitaintso]

Also, I believe I've read every one of your posts and don't recall any concrete evidence of an A so how do you know what race this person is?

As far as my .02 he could be green, pink, blue, purple, silver, or rainbow, their is nothing you can do to control your wife and maybe this is another sign showing that she is confused and in a fog.

Great goals, focus on those as much as possible!!

[bustorama]

Your goals look great and tangible.

One suggestion I have is to make AT LEAST one of your emotional goals about something emotional for yourself -- not having to do with R or M. The IC potentially can get at that. Another example might be to read a relevant book (e.g., about leadership, achievement, cognitive techniques to manage mood [e.g., Learned Optimism], whatever floats your boat).

For social, you also might say instead of MAKE 1 new friend, MAKE or REKINDLE 1 new friendship each quarter. Many of us have past friendships that we have not maintained or that could use reinvigoration. I definitely was guilty of this.

Specifically, Busto had indicated in his thread that if his W had had an A that would be a deal breaker for him. That it would violate one of his core boundaries. So with my W actively involved in an PA, I wonder if I'm just being a fool for even considering a R with my W if the opportunity were to present itself.

I want to be clear about what I meant by that. I meant that WHILE my W was in an A that I would reject her and her behavior in total and not seek to be in a relationship with her. I did NOT mean that I would rule out reconciliation with her in the future if she were to completely stop the A behavior and show faithful actions to affair proof a future relationship with me (transparency, counseling, earnest effort on her part to rebuild trust, etc.).

However, WHILE she was in an A, I would treat our R as over (while STILL trying to understand how I had contributed to the breakdown of our M, improving relevant aspects of myself, and GAL). Those aspects of DBing I feel should be tenets of living, whatever the status of the damaged R.

I don't think this is a trivial distinction. It is important to live in the present. If you don't, you are operating on memories or on hopes, neither of which are reality. Realities (your present) can change quite quickly, whereas memories are fixed and hopes can be eternally unfulfilled.

I mean what does it say about me that I would be OK with my W having sex with OM and still be willing to take her back? From a distance it looks pretty pathetic and needy on my part.

There are two separate boundary issues here that you are lumping together as one issue. Address them separately:

1) Are you ok with being married to someone/being in a relationship with someone that is having sex with OM in the present?

2) IF your W had sex with OM in the past, are you potentially willing to forgive her/take her back and, if so, under what circumstances.

I know that posters have said to give it time and lots of it and that the A, especially since it is long distance would eventually wear off.

I am not a fan of the wait and see/hopeful waiting (or what others have referred to as the Bo Peep approach). It is letting the WAS lead you into the land of crazy. First, what is the likelihood the WAS will change their behavior if there are no negative consequences to what they are doing? Second, and more importantly, how is it in your interest to put your life on hold and keep your emotions in crazy mode while WAS is in fogged out PEA land having sex with someone else? Whatever mistakes you made in the past, you did not "deserve" to be cheated on or lied to. You don't get a gold star for each month of suffering that you endure while WAS wanders around selfishly on spa rendezvous. You just lose months of your life, emotional currency and self-respect.

I think the mistake ALOT of posters on here make is that they equate standing up for your M as hoping and waiting (I did this in my sitch as well). Or, conversely, standing up for your boundaries as 'giving up on the M.' Neither of these views make any sense. The M is two people and requires the engagement of both people. When one person has detached/checked out, there is no M to "stand up for" or "give up on." You stand up for yourself and PERHAPS your partner will find him/herself attracted back to you.

One other thing that has been bothering me that I've not posted about and is probably a touchy subject is that my W's A is with OM who is of a different race. I don't consider myself a racist but I really have a problem with this. Is this rational?

Do you really think you wouldn't have a problem with it if he was the same race????? Insecurity would latch onto another distinguishing trait.

If I land that job one HUGE obstacle will have been removed from my GAL/Detachment effort.

Any update? =)

[MrBond]

Your sitch isn't too far gone. Reclaim YOUR LIFE first and the rest will follow. What were you like when you were dating your W? What did she find the most attractive about you? Work on those traits.

[2thepoint]

Wow, lots of really great posts and ideas to respond to! I’m a little tired tonight so will reply to these posts tomorrow. In the meantime I just wanted to update on events of the past 24 hours.

W got home from her rendezvous/spa weekend late last night. She was tired and so was I. I ended up staying the night because we had planned a birthday outing for our S10 and whose birthday falls around Christmas. Staying the night (albeit in the guest bedroom) was the first over-nighter in the house while my W was there since I moved out in November. I think there is a positive in there somewhere...

Part of the plan was a sleep over with 3 friends. Since W didn’t get home till very late, I was the host. We had pizza and the kids played till late into the evening.

In the last day I was able to do a few 180’s, one of which was for me/kids and the other was for... me/kids.

First, I mentioned in a recent post that being more patient with the kids was something that I needed to work on. During the sleep over S13, S10 and his 3 friends were all pretty wild. Normally, when the kids get crazy, I end up trying to corral them and if they are uncooperative, I end up yelling and things just deteriorate from there. My strategy for coping was to inform the kids before the craziness started where they were allowed to play in the house. And because they mostly followed the rules, I was able to pretty much tune out the chaos and never once lost my temper. I count that as a small victory!

The second thing was that I promised S10 and his friends that I would make chocolate chip pancakes for breakfast. I don’t think I’ve ever done that before. In fact I’m sure of it. Regardless, I enjoyed it and it was another small way for me to connect with them. The added bonus was that my W was there to see this and she benefited from not having to worry about rustling up breakfast for 5 hungry boys.

Later in the day we took the kids to a big indoor trampoline and dodge ball place where they had 2 hours to get as crazy as they wanted. The place was HUGE and SUPER CROWDED since today was the MLK holiday. W and I drove in separate cars since we couldn’t fit us and all the kids in one car.

I fully expected W to do her own thing while I did mine. The place is wired for WIFI and there were a lot of moms hanging out with laptops, ipads, pda’s etc. After we got the kids situated, I left to go get my netbook out of the car. While I was gone, W texts me to tell me where she was sitting in the building, presumably so I could find her and sit with her. I thought that was interesting because she seemed tense all morning. Maybe another small positive there?

Anyway, W and I hung out, her doing her thing and I doing mine. We exchanged some small talk about various things. Then I told her I was going to see about getting something to eat and asked if she wanted anything. She said yes so I went in search of food. I ended up at the food court of a nearby mall and picked up a couple of egg rolls and 6 chocolate chip cookies that I then had to smuggle into the trampoline place since they don’t serve food. So it was kind of fun to secretly eat our egg rolls and watch the looks on people’s faces because they could clearly smell the food but didn’t know from where the smell was coming.

Long story short, I feel like today was a fairly good day, all things considered. On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being fantastic, I’d rate it a 5. Three months ago I would not have been able to even have a day like this with my W. So I chalk this up as a small step. Towards what, I don’t know. But a small step nonetheless.

More tomorrow.

[rickb89]

what's the saying...time and consistent action = ?, I can't remember it.

Glad you can be together peacefully. Glad she saw you making the kid's breakfast. Glad you stayed at your own house.

Does she ever discuss her state of mind with you, or your R? I know you're not supposed to temp check the R but do you have any sense of where you two are? Has she said anything about her needing time and space, something concrete you can get a sense of where you are at by?

[BklynMom]

MLK was huge improvement. A few months ago you would have been focused on her and her weekend instead of you and your kids.

You should be very proud of yourself.

All moms want their kids to have a great dad and cant help to be drawn to an awesome father

[2thepoint]

Following up from posts over the past few days:

Antlers – I agree that the more exercise, the better. The mountain biking thing is a little tough. The crew I ride with like super technical terrain and there were a couple of times last summer where I crashed no less than 5 times in the same ride which really freaked me out and it took me 4 months to even have the desire to ride again. I enjoy it, but damn, some of the spills I’ve taken were pretty horrendous! I wish my body was just a little younger!

WFC & RickB – the goals list I think is a good starting point. I ran them by my C and he thought they were too broad and needed to be broken down into smaller more specific actions. So, that is my assignment for the next week.

RickB – regarding my W being in some sort of life crisis or having a breakdown, I would say that she was very close to having a nervous breakdown up to the point when I moved out. I had never seen her so distraught and emotionally out of control. I was actually scared for her!

I would say that she is definitely going through some sort of MLC. She’ll be 50 this year, has had some minor cosmetic surgery and is considering more (boob reduction, and other fun stuff). She constantly laments the fact that she is old or getting old. So on top of her PA I’d say she is definitely having a MLC.

You and SIAS brought up the PA and whether or not I am sure of it. I’d say definitely yes. I’ve posted in earlier threads why I believe she is involved. I know it initially started out as an EA and at some point, probably in the last year or so, it turned to a PA.

Evidence includes several packages delivered with love type notes included. Then some email evidence and video clips of things I don’t even want to go in to. Then, 3 trips to her favored SPA location which is 1000 miles from home but just a couple hours’ drive from the city where the OM lives. Then a medical clinic bill for various STD tests, a carelessly left behind hotel invoice showing the number of guests = 2 and finally the web history evidence I covered a few posts back.

So I’d say yes, I sure there is a PA.

Oh, and there is no doubt that she is in some thick fog. I only hope she comes out of it before I get to the point of completely abandoning ship. I do think that I have more “time” in me to wait this out, but it is not indefinite. Of course, I will do my best to detach and GAL and become “so money”. At least that is one of my goals!

Rick63 & SIAS – I appreciate your words of encouragement. I really means a lot to know that I have friends who give a sh!t. So thanks!

Also, thanks for the reminder about practicing what we preach. It’s funny, I find it easy to dispel advice to others because I can see so clearly the way forward. But for myself, the way forward is not always so clear.

WRT race, I know because I met this person during a family road trip last year when we were passing through his city. At the time, I was not aware of the EA. All I knew was that this person was a needy friend of my W’s. Oh, and BTW he is all those colors you mentioned – green, blue, purple, silver and rainbow. Regardless of the pretty colors, he’s still a dog!

Busto – I appreciate the suggestion about making at least one of my emotional goals about something for me. My C said the same thing. And the idea about rekindling old friendships is a good one as well. I have sort of been doing that by reconnecting with friends via FB. As mentioned earlier, C suggested I break the goals down to smaller more specific actions, so I’ve still got some work to do there.

Thanks for the clarification regarding the PA. And I get your point about the M being over while she is in the midst of the PA and living in the present versus the past or on memories. That realization seems like it should make it easier to detach.

"1) Are you ok with being married to someone/being in a relationship with someone that is having sex with OM in the present?"

No!

"2) IF your W had sex with OM in the past, are you potentially willing to forgive her/take her back and, if so, under what circumstances."

Yes, I’d forgive her and I’d take her back, because I love her deeply. But the conditions would have to include complete removal of OM from my W’s life, no further contact ever and demonstrated remorse and significant work on rebuilding a trusting R. We’d also have to go to MC, Retrovaille or both and agree to always be completely open and honest with each other from this day forward.

“I think the mistake ALOT of posters on here make is that they equate standing up for your M as hoping and waiting (I did this in my sitch as well). Or, conversely, standing up for your boundaries as 'giving up on the M.' Neither of these views make any sense. The M is two people and requires the engagement of both people. When one person has detached/checked out, there is no M to "stand up for" or "give up on." You stand up for yourself and PERHAPS your partner will find him/herself attracted back to you.”

This ^^^^ is very good advice!

“Do you really think you wouldn't have a problem with it if he was the same race????? Insecurity would latch onto another distinguishing trait.”

You are right. If it wasn’t his race then I’d probably latch on to the horn sticking out of the top of his head. And if it wasn’t the horn, then that weird tail with the bob of hair on the end would be a problem.

On the job front, I have my 2nd interview scheduled for Thursday afternoon. Wish me luck!

Rickb – “Does she ever discuss her state of mind with you, or your R? I know you're not supposed to temp check the R but do you have any sense of where you two are? Has she said anything about her needing time and space, something concrete you can get a sense of where you are at by?”

The last R conversation we had was a few days before we moved out when we had that 3 hour conversation. Other than that, I’ve purposely not engaged my W in any R discussion. On the day I moved out, she sent me a text apologizing for hurting me and thanking me for giving her the space she needs. So, nothing beyond that. All I can go on is the small signals I get from her which are few and far between.

Which brings me to an observation I made the other day when we took the boys to the trampoline place. Several times that day whenever I initiated conversation with my W she would turn to me and just for a split second I would notice a flash of anger, resentment, disdain, whatever you want to call it then it would disappear and she'd be as pleasant as can be. I’m not sure she even realizes she is doing it.

I mentioned this to my C today and he said that while we can’t mind read, he thinks that my changes and 180’s are probably creating confusion in my W’s mind. That she is having trouble reconciling the evil image of me that she has concocted in her mind and the actions she is currently seeing. The two don’t equate and she is confused. Anyway, I thought that was interesting and seems we’ve heard that on this forum before.

Sorry for the long post, there was a lot to respond to.

[sayitaintso]

Good Luck on the interview tomorrow 2!!

[rickb89]

Thinking out loud 2TP about your W's newfound lifestyle.

I just can't help seeing many of your W's reactions to you as the same one's I saw in my W. In this post you mentioned the kind of evil look popping out from her every so often. Yeah, I saw this too, all the time. I think your W has as many and as forceful emotions running through her as you do.

And maybe she is is not seeking help for this which would lead you to think she will never self reflect about where she is. I don't know about that though. If you DB like you are, evolve like you have and will, continue to be the great father you are, and stay on your spiritual path; there's going to be a huge void in her life. She's going to have to look back at some point and recognize what a great guy you are.

I can't imagine a creepy affair will appeal to her long term, esp with a guy with a head horn and tail ball! Really though, I do think she's in a big MLC, all the symptoms are there. What is she going to do? Give up a great guy like you, and a family that can clearly be better than before, to be with someone who willingly sneaks around with a married woman?

BTW, my W spent almost all of her time with another guy for months. I was lucky to find out that there was no A, but it still sukkked because I didn't know that. Now, she can't help continue to point out the many flaws she sees in this guy. My point is this is what our W's need/needed in the heat of the moment. But, in the end, they will see the truth of what they ran away to, someone who was willingly partaking in the possible demise of a M. Not a good point to start a new relationship on.

Wishing you and family the best every day.