Those who just dropped in might want to check out the last few posts of "Still Chooses..". There's been a flurry of activity on my part as I have attempted to process things in the wake of the last convo that I had with my W.
Basically, my very last post indicated that I was questioning the validity of our M. My W expressed doubt about us directly before and after the wedding. As time wore on, her unhappiness continued, both of us unsure of how to change things or make it better. Then disaster struck. Now she's convinced that things could only be great if she can pursue OM but still have me as a close friend. (During our big convo, W called my darkness an attempt to act as though "the last six years of our R didn't happen.")
The thing is, it wasn't always this way. As I was praying to God for answers, I was suddenly hit by one. I remembered the "Marriage Map" that Michele provided in DR. Those who have read it will remember that MWD details the evolution of an M, going from blissful heights to several periods of disillusion to the wondrous time of acceptance and long-last happiness.
I feel that the Map applies to us because my W and I were married in spirit long before the actual ceremony. For the first year, we simply dated. Then I moved to another state and lived with her while the two of us went through school. Things were just as serious as an actual marriage. At this point, we realized that we loved each other very much and would end up marrying each other. My W even moved our marriage date from 2011 to 2009, proving that she was not always so unsure about us.
We had our struggles, of course. I had my past and mental issues to deal with, and so did she. Still, our love shone through it all. I remember these years as being the happiest. I have many fond memories of our life at that point shared between us. I also have many e-mails sent from her to me that prove that she, too, was very happy with me.
Then, as soon as the wedding came, I feel that the "disllusion" phase set in. It wasn't that our problems suddenly got worse. I think that my W simply got freaked out by the permanency of it all. We weren't just "partners" anymore (we didn't like calling each other "BF/GF" given our seriousness); we were FOREVER. And I think that really shook her...
Just because she expressed doubts about us before and after the wedding didn't mean that we were a mistake. It may have had much more to do with her own fears and insecurities about marriage and commitment.
I still firmly believe that if she didn't know how to resolve our problems, she could have done something other than have an A. We could have gone to counseling...she could have bought books on the subject...she could have done anything except give up and leave....
(Sorry to go on so much today, but it is helping me to do this. Thoughts or comments are welcome, but I understand that I may be on my own journey with this.)
West I posted this at the end of your other thread before seeing this one:
Originally Posted By: West
W admitted that she had been crying because she knew that she was making a huge mistake. No one but OM and I knows this.
Wow doesn't it make you feel great that she shared that with you and included you in the elite company of those who know her deep dark secret about you along with other man?
Marriages fail because one or both parties have stopped investing in and committing to the life of the M.
Sounds like she never was in this West. And now she is blaming you for her choices and unhappiness.
Have you onwed everything you did or did not do in this M?
Not what she is telling you.
What you know you should have done to commit to and grow your M?
OK.
Beyond that is hers. ALL HERS.
She is trying to blame you for the failure of something she had no investment in.
Sure she'll hang around for the upside but she's not going to get dirty helping you make it work.
Why would you accept less from someone than you are committed to giving yourself?
Do feel she was equally yoked in this thing with you?
Did she stay because she pitied you?
Do you think you are deserving of pity?
I don't mean that you are worthy of pity and compassion everyone is
BUT
Is that who you are?
Are you the poor victim here?
Or
Is she someone who doesn't have the ability to surrender herself to investing in a relationship?
What do her actions tell you?
Then her words?
Is this someone you can count on to be your partner?
Do you think she has the ability to do this for someone? Not just you anyone?
She has issues to deal with in her PTSD and unfortunately this inability for empathy (not sympathy) and giving of oneself to a partnership like a M is part of it IMO.
It is not your responsibility to be the band aid to all her insecurities and emotional whims so don't fall for the selfish trap.
Own what you need to own. Not what she says you should.
Then
Take a step toward being a better man
...and away from someone who would make you a scapegoat of there own poor choices.
Start stepping today West.
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
Sounds like she never was in this West. And now she is blaming you for her choices and unhappiness.
I'm starting to see this now. If she had really wanted our M to work, she would have fought for it much harder and much longer than she did. It's weird because she used to put a lot of effort into trying to repair us. As soon as we got married, all of that effort turned into the belief that I should be the one to do ALL of the work. So unfair...
Originally Posted By: Gritter
Have you onwed everything you did or did not do in this M? Not what she is telling you. What you know you should have done to commit to and grow your M?
Yes. Every time I pray, I readily realize the things that I wish that I would have done differently in my M. I take full responsibility for those things. I can see why being with me was at times hurtful and difficult. I'm no saint. I had my share of issues.
Originally Posted By: Gritter
She is trying to blame you for the failure of something she had no investment in. Sure she'll hang around for the upside but she's not going to get dirty helping you make it work. Why would you accept less from someone than you are committed to giving yourself?
And here I thought I was the one failing HER. No, she just quit when she realized that marriage was not a fantasy carriage ride through the land of unicorns and sprites but a hard slog through some muddy, swampy terrain every now and again. It's something that takes WORK. I have no doubt that whatever R she is in now or later on will find itself in the same pattern. Something will always be too wrong to tolerate for much longer. After all, if OM is so perfect, why does it scare her so much to have me exit stage left?
Originally Posted By: Gritter
Did she stay because she pitied you?
I'm starting to really wonder why she stayed at all. She told me that it was because she only wanted children and because she didn't want to devastate her parents. I'm thinking that maybe she thought that she SHOULD have, for all intents and purposes, wanted to be with me but just didn't feel like it for whatever reason. It HAD to be something wrong with me. Couldn't be anything wrong with her. (Although sometimes she did admit in moments of depression, "Sometimes I think that I wouldn't be happy with anyone.")
Originally Posted By: Gritter
Is this someone you can count on to be your partner? Do you think she has the ability to do this for someone? Not just you anyone? She has issues to deal with in her PTSD and unfortunately this inability for empathy (not sympathy) and giving of oneself to a partnership like a M is part of it IMO. It is not your responsibility to be the band aid to all her insecurities and emotional whims so don't fall for the selfish trap.
Today has been devastating because I have been slowly coming to terms with this reality. I really don't want to believe that she could never be my partner in life ever again because I do love and miss who she used to be like hell. Let's face it, the woman that I used to love may be long gone.
She no longer harbors any respect or empathy for me. She thinks that she wants to be "friends" with me, but really, I see it only as using me as her various "band-aids." Whatever OM doesn't provide, I will. If things with OM don't work out, then I'm the one to fall back on. The way she seems to view my role in her life sickens me.
I talked to both my dad and sister today about this conversation (minus the OM stuff). Both saw it as a complete and utter power play on her part. Dad pointed out that she really doesn't have much of a case with the legal stuff. Why would her lawyer bother with several thousand dollars worth of furniture? Plus, W herself stupidly pointed out that she and OM have no money, so it's not like she could hire him. She's just throwing out whatever crap she can to scare me back. I'm tired to kow-towing to stuff like that.
Both sister and her friend said, "This visit had nothing to do with the rabbit." Of course I knew that. As soon as she walked in, she saw the rabbit for less than two minutes, then went straight to me... It's all a power game for her...
I really don't want to bring out the wrath in her, but she's leaving me no choice. If she is choosing to see my "space" as a bad thing, then maybe she should have made some better choices than she has. If she chooses to see this as "selfish," then I can't do anything about that. It's her problem now, not mine.
I've been thinking today that the thing that hurts me the worst about having to cut her out of my life is her family. I love them to death and really miss being their SIL/BIL/GIL. I think that her bit about them being "hurt" that I haven't been involved in their lives anymore was probably an outright lie. I hope that they know that this has nothing to do with them, and I hope that they feel that I'm doing the right thing given the sitch.
Even though W told me not to contact them, I'm thinking about stopping by and maybe having a final convo with them to make sure that they understand that this is nothing personal. I sent that e-mail to them, but I just don't think that it's enough. They deserve more after being a second family to me for years.
By the way, I had to add this. On the forums over at Surviving Infidelity, there are several threads dedicated to "Dumb Things WAS' Say." This should go on there.
W (last night): You know, you trying to cut me out of my life is only going to hurt the next relationship that you have. Some girl is going to be like, "His ex-W was the perfect W and GF to him for six years and he just didn't want to have anything to do with her anymore? What's wrong with him?"
I told my little sister about that and we had a big laugh. She said, "What woman is going to be like, 'He has a great relationship with his ex-wife? YES! This is great!"
I would hate to think that she really is this type of person. Several articles that I have read about BPD villainize borderlines and make them sound like little more than emotional vampires who will suck you dry, then move on. Still, it's been pretty much what I've seen over the last couple of months.
More of it may have gone on in our R. An objective perception of what happened in my R with her, I must admit, has been hard for me to find. This has been my only R with any woman. It's hard for me to know what's normal and what's not...
I would hate to think that she really is this type of person.
Then don't... but the choice, is yours...
Psycho analyzing our spouses is dangerous for all parties, at best. But IF we need answers AND we've stood for as long as we can bare AND we have made MANY positive changes in ourselves to become as good a person as we can at the time... then how one comes to their choices is up to them...
Sadly, the articles on the site you listed regarding Borderline... they horribly resonate within me, as well... anyone who is dealing with ANY mental / emotional disorder... wow... I so empathize with them...
But this process... DBing and standing... it takes time... it takes a long, long time... at least relative to what we think we can handle... on a time frame that is probably different than we'd like...
It is said that a person in MLC shows many emotional disorders within... and fairly... every human has the potential to display emotional disorder tendencies sometime in their life...
So the really big question to anyone who is seeking answers which are not forthcoming is...
How does that affect your stand?
And a subset question is...
How do you feel about that decision?
IOW, don't stand or walk because of information... or because of feedback from others... or any other extraneous influence...
Stand or walk because YOU made the choice and you feel good about that choice...
And course correct from there... even if you eventually choose the opposite... and then be good with that choice...
Westcoast... I know where you're coming from. Very early in my sitch I came across materials on BPD. I'm still not convinced that there isn't some of that in my W. Particularly because of traumas from her childhood she's only recently revealed and things she says about herself. I don't see it so much as me looking at her behaviors and trying to armchair diagnose them... rather, she tells me very specific, concrete things that she feels are wrong with her and you literally could go down the BPD checklist.
I'm coming to a realization, for myself, that even if we were to recon at some point I couldn't commit to it unless she agreed to participate in IC. I know that's anti-DB principles, but there is just so much there. It's like our house is falling down in an earthquake right now. Rebuilding it without having the foundation (each of our mental health) checked would be foolish.
This isn't to say that I wouldn't be willing to work on recon with her. Or that we couldn't take our time. But at some point, especially once I feel I am in a healthier place, I can't be with someone who is very unhealthy.
The challenging part, of course, is that the checklists are fairly vague and "squishy". At any given time people can be diagnosed as one thing or another I imagine. So I try not to attach too much value to any one idea or area. And ultimately at the end of the day, mental health issues or not, my spouse still wants to split up and we still have children being drug through the mess.
Married 6 together 8 Me:38 W:31 second marriage for both SS12, SD10, S6 Bomb: 9/8/11 (day before our 5 yr ann) W moved out: 2/18/12 D final: 11/12/12 Share S 50/50. Spend as much time as I can with SS & SD
WHG, IMHO you are not far off... if off, at all...
The amazing thing I find is how my W displays traits and I have learned of her past through her and others... combined with my past, being an ACOA, etc... it's just like... wow... it all just fits... and there's nothing wrong with me... with ANY LBS... to look at this stuff...
because...
it can be relevant in how it relates to the LBS... and what the LBS can do about THEIR part...
I will put myself out there and submit that DBing doesn't preclude BOUNDARIES regarding R... When we say we will only consider R IF our spouses go to IC or something else... that's a condition...
If we say that we cannot tolerate being subject to the emotional trauma and dramas that our spouses... that is a boundary...
It could be argued they are the same thing, but we know... they are not...
a condition is an attempt to control someone else... that goes against DB principles...
a boundary is a method of protecting ourselves... which is pro DB principles...
And if our spouses seek IC and they can consistently match their behaviours to meet our healthy boundaries so that we consider R...
But this process... DBing and standing... it takes time... it takes a long, long time... at least relative to what we think we can handle... on a time frame that is probably different than we'd like...
It is said that a person in MLC shows many emotional disorders within... and fairly... every human has the potential to display emotional disorder tendencies sometime in their life...
I guess I still don't really know what I'm dealing with after all. Sometimes her off-the-wall, hurtful behaviors could be described as affair fog or MLC tendencies. Other times, they appear to go word-for-word what I find in articles on BPD. I'm trying hard to prepare myself so I know what to deal with, but this is all so unpredictable...
BTW, is it possible for MLC to be applied to my W even though she's in her mid-twenties? I'll have to do some research on the MLC side of DB. I've often heard it mentioned in a different context than what I would usually think of as MLC (guy in his forties or fifties fearing old age, reverting to younger behaviors, etc.)
I find myself looking back on our R and seeing a lot of hurtful things that she did. Hurtful things that make me feel as though recon is pointless... Then again, this is the same kind of "selective memory" that causes WAS' to walk out in the first place. There might be a chance of this working out in the end because we both want it to. It's only been 4 months after all... These things take time.
Originally Posted By: workinghardguy
I'm coming to a realization, for myself, that even if we were to recon at some point I couldn't commit to it unless she agreed to participate in IC. I know that's anti-DB principles, but there is just so much there. It's like our house is falling down in an earthquake right now. Rebuilding it without having the foundation (each of our mental health) checked would be foolish.
I would feel the same way about my W. If her "BPD elements" really are causing a lot of our problems, then there isn't much that I can do to help it. She would have to find professional help to fix those things about herself. If I'm going to build a family with someone, it won't be with someone who doesn't have her schnit together.
We do have life transitions, most suggest every 7 to 10 years in our adulthood... and any one of these can end up being a crisis, if we avoid the reflective and internal work associated with transitions...
The label of Mid Life Crisis originates from the transitions that occur in the 40s or 50s. Perhaps it stands to reason that this is a more imperative time in our lives when we really begin to deal with our mortality, as well as hormonal changes, and if we've avoided the work in previous transitions, they stick with us until we do the work, so it's compounded...
So it is becoming more accepted I would suspect, that we call any transition that is being avoided as MLC...
