It’s been almost 5 months since I gave a real update about what has been going on in my situation. I am posting now because I think that seeing how our situations change over time helps all of us to put the puzzle pieces together. Thanks to everyone who has been so supportive both here and in the alt over the past 3 years. Even though I haven’t been posting much I continue to read the MLC threads on a regular basis. There is SO much wisdom there! I am very grateful to all of you who so generously share on the MLC threads. I always find something to feed my soul and to provide new insights when I read there. Thank you all!
Over the past 4-5 months I have been going through a big transition. Over the summer I was anticipating the 3 year anniversary of the bomb, which actually occurred last week. I was preparing myself for this anniversary because to me it seemed that if XH hadn’t made significant movement forward and toward me by then (September), it would be time to move on. ………and since my emotions were in flux during that time, I needed some time away from posting on the boards. The abridged version is in the next paragraph. The detailed version (including Jody’s comments) is below (WARNING ----- it’s long!). • XH’s mother passed away 6 months ago • In April – June I initiated more contact, thinking that XH would have a void in his life with his mother gone • XH accepted about half of my invitations, but I never knew if he would be moody or more like his old self (Jeckyl or Hyde). In retrospect I think XH WAS actually making some forward progress during the first 3 months after his mother’s death. He suggested we start playing online board games and we played every night for 30-90 minutes before bedtime, IM’ing back and forth. I felt pretty certain there wasn’t anyone special in his life. • I was grieving X-MIL too and had increasing financial pressures. I was frustrated, anticipating the 3 year bomb anniversary, and not DB’ing very well. Jody was telling me that XH saw me as someone always waiting outside his front door whom he can “let in” whenever he decides to. • I think XH may have seen this website when he and his sister visited my house in mid-June for an impromptu dinner and drinks. Not sure. Another reason I’ve been laying low. • XH and I had a heated discussion while playing TT in late June (more details below). I set some boundaries………didn’t do a good job of it, but over the past few months XH has not been taking me for granted as much. • Contact really cooled off for about 6-7 weeks, although we played TT a couple times during that period. I always left quickly and didn’t linger to chat (we didn’t chat much during the games either), even though XH seemed to want to chat afterward. • I felt some relief. Felt that I had made “the break” and focused on GAL, repairing things around the house (stuff that needed to be fixed before XH walked), and invited a fella to go biking with me (kinda sorta “date”). He had phoned to ask me on a date 2 years earlier but I wasn’t anywhere near ready then. It was enjoyable, but we haven’t seen each other again. • During July and August I did not initiate at all. I waited days to respond to XH’s board game plays. I told XH I wasn’t able to play TT at times, and he had plans at other times, so weeks went by with minimal or no contact. • In mid-August, when XH wanted to play TT but the room we needed wasn’t available, I told XH I’d take a rain check for the following week. XH then kicked it into high gear and found a place to play (more details below). Over the last month XH has begun initiating a lot more (more details below). • XH told me in mid-August that he is having a biopsy for pro$t8 cancer (he is also having other annoying health problems at the same time). The biopsy was rescheduled from early Sept to later this week. XH should know the results in ~1 ½ weeks. Even if he doesn’t have cancer, his condition has probably progressed to the point where he will need surgery anyway, and that will have a big impact on the way that he relates to women. • Over the past few months I’ve also had short, frank convos with X-SIL and a long-time friend of XH’s. They both know that X-MIL’s alcoholism has impacted him more deeply than XH realizes. XH’s friend (good guy) agreed with me that XH needs to find the happiness he is looking for within himself. • In summary, I can tell that events in XH’s life have caused him to think about where he is in his life. He seems to treat me as a trusted friend but not someone with romantic potential. However, I’m not sure if he sees anyone as a romantic object right now and frankly I’m not certain I have romantic feelings for HIM either, even though I do still miss my H VERY, VERY much! I feel like a widow. XH seems depressed. He is NOT his former self, but the conversations that we have had over the summer have been very real. No posturing. I would be very surprised if XH was dating anyone special right now. I don’t get that sense. He’s too depressed. • I have become VERY detached as the result of this summer’s events. I look at XH in the same way I look at one of my patients who doesn’t do what they need to do to get healthy. XH even said once that he wonders if his compulsion to not follow medical advice for non-surgical management (e.g. withhold fluids before bedtime) is like an alcoholic compulsion. • Right now XH is not anywhere near the man I knew before. In some ways he is becoming more “real”, but his walls are still very high. This fall I am focusing on finishing the home repairs, doing some marketing for my work, doing some very nice things for myself, and socializing more…………….Moving forward. Not initiating with XH but not burning that bridge either.
Below is a more detailed overview of what has happened in my situation.
My last real update was in May. XH’s mother passed away at the end of March. After her death I felt that there was an opportunity to grow closer to XH because I knew that his schedule would be much less full (he wouldn’t be visiting his mother) and I thought he would be lonely. I invited XH to do several things and he turned down about 50% and accepted about 50% of my invitations (i.e. movie, going out to eat together) but was very withdrawn at times when he DID accept. He was very much like Jeckyl and Hyde during this time. I never knew who I was going to see when we got together. I acted “as if”. I’m not sure if XH knew he was being so moody. We played TT almost every week.
In early June XH stored his kayaks at my house and told me I could use them. XH was very friendly with me at our health club, giving me tips on my weight training form. I asked him about a broken latch on my garden gate and he fixed it a couple days later while I was at work, even though he only had about 4-5 hours’ sleep the night before. That was significant because XH hadn’t done many AoS for me since the bomb. When we were together pre-bomb he did AoS all the time. In early May, XH invited me to play online board games and we played every night for 30-90 minutes before bed, chatting online as we played. This routine went on for about 6-7 weeks. I felt pretty certain XH wasn’t dating anyone then because he wouldn’t be online chatting and playing games with me before bedtime if he had an overnight guest.
In early June I loaned XH my bike so he could go riding with a close childhood friend who was visiting from out of state. I met and chatted with his friend (male) a bit. X-SIL also visited from out of state. She, XH, and I played TT. They came to my house afterward for drinks and an impromptu dinner.
Encouraged by this forward movement I continued to initiate, trying to take advantage of the opportunity I perceived. XH began canceling our weekly TT game on short notice because he had made plans with various people. I became frustrated because I felt that he was not treating me with consideration when he canceled on relatively short notice. At the same time I was frustrated because GAL plans I had made were falling through (other friends canceled plans) and I was spending a fair amount of time maintaining and fixing things around my home. When XH left I knew that I would face 2 big financial hurdles in the subsequent few years: I would need a new roof on my home and I would need to replace my car. I was dealing with these financial stresses at the same time that XH withdrew from me. I am happy to report now that my insurance company will be replacing my roof in the next couple weeks. (That was divine intervention once again.)
In retrospect now, I see that pushed too hard at that time. If I had just let things develop naturally, they may have returned to the forward movement that seemed to have developed……….Instead, when XH canceled TT on little notice to attend the concert of an musician he dislikes with a female friend, I got very frustrated. This frustration led to a pretty heated discussion between XH and me in late June during TT. I told him I thought he had been inconsiderate to cancel on such late notice. He apologized, but I kept jabbing at him (not normal behavior for me). He asked me why I was jabbing at him and I told him “I’ve been frustrated that your walls are so high. I have made invitations to you to do things and you have just blown me off. I really don’t have any interest in just playing TT with you. I can do that with anyone. I can play with someone in the TT league or find someone online to have that kind of casual interaction with. Friends to me are people that you share with and do things with.” Not good DB’ing. I was losing my patience…………At one point in the convo XH asked me if I wanted to just stop playing then. I said “Fine! That’s fine with me.”……..but then XH said “Why don’t we just keep playing a bit longer”. ……..XH and I have rarely ever raised our voices to one another, so this exchange was a big departure for us. At one point XH said in reference to our pre-bomb R “We both made mistakes”. That caught my attention because it’s the closest he’s come to admitting any culpability in the last 3 years, but I thought “Geez. It’s been 3 years since the bomb and THIS is the closest you have gotten to taking any responsibility for YOUR part of this?” I just thought to myself, “He is SO far from seeing HIS part in this. Why should I continue to DB?” XH said that his walls are up because he is still angry with me because of all the money he spent to get a D even though we had a pre*nup. There was more conversation and then I said “I wouldn’t want that old M. It wasn’t good. It wasn’t good that my H couldn’t tell me he was unhappy but instead told his best friend”. XH looked VERY surprised at that truth dart since I had always avoided R talks post-bomb. I told him “You’ve been so moody and depressed and I’ve tried really hard to be understanding and supportive.” Bad DB’ing again! Afterward, when we walked out to our cars I said, “Thanks for raising the issue that I was being cranky. I have been frustrated about this issue (canceling on short notice) and I appreciate being able to talk to you about it. You were right. I was cranky and I am sorry for that. When your walls are so high it’s just not fun for me”.
Five days later XH emailed me “presently, ….our relationship as friends extends to the borders that are now established. If you want more from me in time, conversation, dissection of our past relationship, etc….I don't have that to offer.”
I spoke with Jody shortly after that. She said that it’s scary for me to change gears. It’s very common that between transitions, the LBS has to step back because it creates a disruption of the status quo. It’s necessary for the WAS to pick up the slack. Jody said that if I looked at the whole road map, I was at a T intersection. She said that I needed to slow down in order to turn the corner. If I turned one way, it could lead to the end of the R. If I turned the other way, it could lead to the next stage of the R. She said I could say to XH “Something has come up and I’m not available for TT this week. How about if we play next week?” (I did, in fact, reschedule a few times and once, when the community center wasn’t available I told XH “I’ll take a rain check for next week”. XH then got VERY busy and found a place to play….and when THAT place didn’t pan out, he scramble to fina a 2nd place to play……After we finished playing that night I received an email from XH inviting me to play TT AND to go out to dinner afterward the next week……so it appeared that my pullback resulted in XH pursuing me.)
Jody said that XH may have been using the financial settlement as justification for his distance. She said it is important to XH that he feels he is in charge of the cadence. Let him initiate. At that point, to him it felt like his job was to avoid my overtures.
She said I should pull back because that is part of the process. It disrupts the status quo.
About 7 weeks after our heated discussion and minimal contact, XH began inviting me to do things other than TT. First he invited me to dinner after TT. He told me that he is having a biopsy to test for pro$t8 cancer. XH seems to be thinking about his mortality. My cat got sick and XH offered reassurances and said he was praying for her. That was noteworthy because XH wasn’t religious at all when we were together. Like me, he had a bad experience with religion in his childhood.
XH had also bought a very nice new racing bike in July but never invited me to go biking with him…………… until 2 weeks ago. XH injured his foot and can’t play TT for ~10 weeks but invited me to go biking on our regular TT night. We biked several miles, stopped to have dinner/drinks (his idea), then biked back in the dark under a full moon. Fun evening! We talked over dinner. XH said a friend of his who works in health care had told him about all of the problems that can occur following pro$t8 surgery. I think he is beginning to realize that the way he relates to women will have to change if he has surgery. The conversation turned naturally to a point where I told XH about David $chnarch's work saying we need to push the boundaries of our sexual comfort to keep Rs fresh because $ex is so important to our motivation to work on Rs. XH nodded his head in strong agreement. I then said that $chnarch does 2 day intensive counseling and has also trained therapists in his approach all over the country.” I said “ We should have done that.” XH’s eyes and facial expression at this comment was neutral. He didn’t withdraw and he didn’t affirm.
One week later XH sent me a funny birthday card (on the front were 3 middle-aged women and one of them said “ So I said, “I just don’t see how that trapeze is going to hold both of us……” and it went on from there) and invited me out for cake to celebrate my birthday. I suggested a movie beforehand and XH agreed. We whispered back and forth during the movie. ………XH flirted with the hostess at the restaurant while we were waiting to be seated. Annoying, but our conversation was unguarded over dinner. ……..so this was the 3rd time that we did something outside of TT, in spite of what XH said about not wanting to socialize outside of TT at the end of June. We have had a number of unguarded conversations since X-MIL’s death. At birthday dinner, XH and I talked about looking back at our lives and if there is anything else that we would like to do before leaving this world. We both said that we feel very blessed. XH said he doesn’t have any major goals to accomplish yet in life. I said there are some places in this world I would still like to see.
That’s the update. I am feeling much more detached. XH is making some small movement in processing what has happened, but is nowhere near taking responsibility for his role in what happened. I have continued to see small and big miracles in my life. I am very grateful to feel God's presence in my life during these difficult years. I continue to grow and change through this process.
Thanks for posting. I see parallels in our situations. These MLCers certainly take a long time to marinate, don't they?
Yes, I have felt like throwing in the towel, beginning about 2 years post-bomb but I kept thinking that X-MIL's passing might move XH forward in the tunnel. This summer when XH said as an aside (during our heated discussion) "We both made mistakes" I just wanted to scream "That's it? You finally admitted to yourself that you played a role in this but you weren't planning to acknowledge it to me?" It ticked me off and I pushed XH farther away by engaging him in that heated discussion. I was the person who drove that discussion........Right now I feel that by detaching as much as I have, that I have essentially thrown in the towel..........I am focusing on my life and trying to heal. If Mr. Wonderful came along tomorrow I would gladly spend time with him.
If XH took steps to address his mental health issues, accepted responsibility for his part of what happened between us, and really wanted to explore a romantic R with me I would explore that with him. I am not waiting for him to turn around, but honestly, he is a good man down deep. I have dated a lot in the past and have a lot of male work colleagues and male patients. If XH ever sorts out his baggage he will be a really good guy.
I am not attracted to the depressed XH. There were times this summer when I could barely stand to be around him because I see him as being clueless about unhealthy influences in his life and not willing to get healthy.........but, I will say that we still have fun and laughs when we're together. I think it says a lot that we can do that after everything that has happened with us..........and 2 weeks ago when we were sitting in an outdoor cafe on a warm evening under the full moon I felt myself still attracted to him............I guess that says a lot too.
I agree with you that I don't feel love from XH. My interactions with him actually remind me of our first few dates years ago. XH was kind of depressed then too and spent a lot of time complaining about his business partner. He kept a poker face throughout those dates until he went to kiss me goodnight the first time. That kiss lasted an hour and his walls disappeared completely after that..........until about 6 months before the bomb. I think XH has always had some depression and used serial monogamy and activities to self-medicate. If he has surgery it could seriously affect his ability to use that coping strategy in the future.
Yes, I am living my life as if XH is never coming back. I don't want to become best friends with XH again outside of a committed romantic R.
My XH is also a very good man deep down but his core values are buried so deep in the mud that he can't seem to find them anymore. I hope, for his own wellbeing, that he finds them before to much damaged has been done and he can't face up to it. Suicide is on his mind often and he can't stop his destructive ways. Sad!
Well I know everyone hates when I do this but I enjoy it.
GAG I think your H might be in true depression stage right now.
He as you know is still in crisis. I must admit that you seem to have a lot of contact with him though out these years.
Of course he is not ready yet for a relationship with you and even when he might be sometime in the future it would take a lot more dating until you would have a real relationship.
Can I ask who normally initiates contact between the two of you?
Yes MLC takes a long time, but then again a teenager takes a long time to grow into an adult. There really is no difference between the two. You are watching him grow up before your very eyes but it is a slowwwwwwww process.
Anyways thanks for the detailed update.
Don't change anything right now, he needs to control the contact with you. Keep thinking squirrel.
Hi GAG. I don't know if this counts as advice or just an observation, but when I read how long you're still working with him, I think wow. I can't get over what you've invested. And I guess I want to give you one perspective on this, especially since you likened the experience to working with a patient who won't follow the directions to take care of themselves.
Where is the point when we decide that what we give to help these people--when the help is paying attention when they come out of the tunnel here and there, investing our thoughts or emotions into their troubles, wondering how to help but how to walk the line and remain detached, all that stuff--when is the point that we decide that there are OTHER people in the world that we could be investing time in who would actually care about themselves enough to take the help and improve their condition, whatever it is?
I don't know if I'm explaining this right and I don't want to sound condescending like it's "us", who are all "enlightened", versus "them", who are in the tunnel for years and years.
But let me illustrate it this way: in the 2-week period where I started to reconnect with my XH a bit via email, when I saw that he is still VERY deep in replay and still really not getting it at all, and when I started to get really honest with myself about his tendency towards depression that has literally been with him since I met him in college, and which shows NO signs of going anywhere because he's too arrogant or scared to look at himself in the mirror, I found myself wanting to help him STILL. And in that same time period, I started to talk to a guy I work with who is about 20 years older than me, the guy who started up the meditation group I go to. And this guy is married, has kids, and there is nothing romantic at all with him--but in talking to him, I found that he is combatting severe depression and his own breakdown from last year that stemmed from unresolved issues from his marriage over 20 years ago. And when I reached out to him, he ACCEPTED my help. He's only too grateful to have a friend and to be a friend TO ME as well. It took him over 20 years to come out of his tunnel, so to speak.
And then I thought: well, Antonia, you can keep trying in vain to reach out to your XH with a respectful distance, and you can keep being rebuffed again and again, because XH thinks he knows it all, or you can focus your energy on people who actually welcome your help and want to give something in return, and that's the choice I made.
I don't feel I'm shutting the door on XH in that I will not rule out EVER reconciling with him. There is a part of me that feels like it could work if he ever loses OW and stops running. But I also know that the parts of him that I ignored, that deep-seated depression and pessimism, has been with him all his life, and I just wonder if I have a limited time here, and life is about caring for others, should I not be trying to care for those who want care enough to TRY?
I wonder if you might be going through this a little, only because you said that you've allowed more time to go between the times you interact. I think you want to stand for the marriage but if you're seeing him almost as a patient, then something is really shifting in you.
Like I said, not really advice, just something that I thought of when I read your post. I guess what I'm saying is that I think you can still keep the door open for FAR into the future but detach from him a bit more, and I'm sure it's difficult to do so with the depression, because you want to care for him. But he has to learn to care for himself, too, and there might be others out there you can focus your energy on more to do more good in the world? I dunno. Just a thought :-)
M45 Bomb 6/09; EA 6/10; Divorced 1/11 Proud single mom of 7 little feline girls and one little feline boy "Fall down 53 times. Get up 54." -- Zen saying
Thank you very much for offering your perspectives!
Cadet, I have always respected your opinions. Thank you for offering your thoughts about XH's stage. It's been so long since I thought about the MLC stages that it took me several minutes to find the link (in your welcome to MLC list). I understand the concerns that folks have about assigning a stage to their MLCer. Difficult to see the big picture until the MLC is really winding down. However, when I re-read the description of the stages, what struck me was that in Depression and the later stages, the MLCer begins to recognize and face their issues. XH has made a handful of comments over the past few months indicating that he is becoming aware of some of his issues. I didn't report all of these in my update --- can't remember all of them. I just noted that change which does seem to be consistent with the description of Depression, so maybe you are right. Others have written that MLCers can cycle back and forth between several stages, so who knows what might happen?
Good question about who initiates contact. Jody always coached me to let H/XH initiate contact so I have let him do the majority of initiating since 1-2 months post-bomb and ESPECIALLY since our heated discussion in June. I'd say that since the bomb H/XH has initiated ~80-90% of the time except for the first few months after his mother's death when I initiated ~30-50%. That didn't work so well. Except for the first few TT games, I have always waited for XH to initiate games and he has done so on a regular basis.
Yes, I am pretty detached now but friendly with XH. I don't plan to do much initiating. Thanks for your thoughts on this topic!
Antonia, thank you very much for your thoughts! Your posts are always thought-provoking. It was interesting to read what you wrote about my "still working with" XH. I guess I think that phrase may have applied somewhat when I was actively DB'ing but I don't really think of boundary-setting and communicating in my personal Rs as "working with" my friends. If I thought a friend was exercising poor judgement I would question them about that, but I don't think of that as "helping" them. I wouldn't try to impose my value system on a friend.
I continue to interact with XH in a friendly manner because much of the time I find it at least somewhat enjoyable. Over the past month XH has become more considerate and thoughtful, so that has added to the enjoyment.
When I wrote that XH reminded me of a non-compliant patient when he persisted in certain behaviors, I was referring to his choice to not comply with recommendations made by his physicians that would have eased his physical complaints. I wasn't referring to the difficulty he has facing his childhood demons. Sorry if I was unclear about that. I don't have any desire to control XH. I am much more of a distancer personality, something I've written about before. My post may not have made this clear, but over the summer I detached big time from XH. It was painful and I shed a lot of tears, but I feel as though I've come to a good place, a bit like what beatrice has described, although she is definitely further along on that journey than I am. I still grieve at times for my H (the man he used to be) like a widow, but that is part of healing for me.
I have learned from over 20 years of patient care in a pain clinic setting that all we can do is put the information out there. We have no control over what the patient (or loved one) does with that information. That is THEIR choice.
I don't write much about my other friendships here because this is one of the only places I can get feedback/support about what has happened with my H/XH. THat is why I am here. THis board has saved my sanity throughout this very difficult process.
It's late here so I'm not sure if what I wrote makes sense. Thanks again for taking time to post to me.
Since I last posted 8 days ago, XH has sent me 6 emails. Three of these were updating me about his medical appointments and his health status. So far I've only responded to XH's email saying his biopsy was finished. I responded with 2 short emails, asking him to follow the post-procedure instructions. I haven't replied for the past week because I've been busy and frankly I'm bored with the dynamic XH and I have had. A few days ago, XH emailed to tell me it was my turn to play the online game (haven't played in over a week --- better things to do). Then when I didn't respond, he sent me a link to a news story about women in the workplace that he thought would elicit a strong reaction from me. I laughed when I saw it because it seemed like an obvious attempt to elicit a response from me. I still didn't respond. I've been busy. .........Then today I received a medium-length email telling me about a visit XH had to another specialist today. He signed it "Love, Mr. G". That's the 2nd time in 2 weeks that XH has signed a note to me "Love, Mr. G" (the other time was my birthday card). ..........This is strange. XH and I used to give each other sweet cards all the time (every month on the date we met for the first 4 years of our R) and he always signed them that way. He's only done that 1-2 other times since the bomb.
I think XH's health concerns have frightened him and I see this contact as his way of reaching out to someone who has always been nurturing in the past. My sister thinks that once this health scare passes, XH will resume his previous attitude toward me. I feel like not responding and letting XH lean on BMF to see what kind of emotional support he can get from that narcissist when the "rubber hits the road". .........At the same time, XH HAS reached out to me several times and it is just common courtesy to respond in some way. I would do at least that much for a neighbor.
If any vets see this I would value your feedback. Maybe some of you have been through similar situations. I'm tired of the MLC XH but I would like to keep the door open in the event that someday XH faces his demons and emerges from his MLC.
Any feedback is welcome..........Oh, and BTW, XH is supposed to receive his biopsy results tomorrow.
I haven't been through a situation like this at all, but it seems to me that you're doing well with when you are choosing to respond, and you're giving him the opportunity to lean on someone else besides you but also being "there" or responding for the most important things he has contacted you about. I think you're doing well, especially with the fact that you're finding that your own activities are "less boring" than the dynamic that's been going on with him.
M45 Bomb 6/09; EA 6/10; Divorced 1/11 Proud single mom of 7 little feline girls and one little feline boy "Fall down 53 times. Get up 54." -- Zen saying
GAG, it seems to me that you're looking at this in one direction when there may be several. Let me play it back: 1) XH is contacting you 2) XH may be scared and reaching to a familiar person he loved (loves?) 3) MLC often requires another crisis to change the polarity. Perhaps this is that crisis? 4) XH is making an effort to connect with you, but no way to know why 5) You don't trust his reasons (understandable) 6) You have your own life and things you do. He is not your responsibility 7) You still want to leave the door open. You obviously care about him enough to wish him well 8) You are not sure about the latest changes or if you want them.
The polarity, at least for now, has changed and you don't trust it.
That makes sense to me.
I think what you're doing is absolutely the best approach. You don't know if you can trust him. You don't know if you want to, but that is not a decision you need to make yet. You still need to figure out if you can trust him. That won't happen after one or two emails from "the dark side". (Postcards?)
I see no reason to act any differently or even think that this is anything other than him telling you information. I don't think your sister can know what he will do.
I think you can only take it as it comes and decide if you want to be there or not. If you want to respond or not. And I think you should feel comfortable with that because you are your own person with a life.
Just as you would with a neighbor....
Unless and until you need to make a different decision, the reality is that you received some emails that remind you of the old XH. Not really enough yet to think anything else I suspect.
Nice that you care and nice that you care enough to let him lean on somebody else vs. feeling like you have to fix or support him.
Be good to you and figure out what you want. Go from there, right?
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
