OK... 81 Days

[FaithnAK]

Denver,


I hope you know it would be mostly fear that would Prevent you from forgiving
fear of being hurt again, fear about loss of pride and wounded ego

none of these are reasons to forgive, Least of all fear

I agree. Fear is a B!tch.However, I believe your W has told you what she wants. Validate her and move the opposite way.

Time and abstinence is what is needed at this point. Get away from the boards and figure out what you want Denver. You have a great opportunity here, but she does have to prove SHE is done with OM before you ever move forward. You will know.

[Denver_2010]

Its time to start a new thread and take this off line...

This is not fair to Denver... Really sorry dude...

I disagree....

I think this is the perfect place to have a debate about forgiveness...

And the pitfalls of not being able to.

Exactly where Denver is.

The "superiority" complex displayed is exactly what Denver should take a glance at in his own situation.

And if is stings a bit ?

Then maybe it should be looked at more closely....

I agree with Mach. I have processed a lot by reading this conversation.

[Denver_2010]

I hope you know it would be mostly fear that would Prevent you from forgiving
fear of being hurt again, fear about loss of pride and wounded ego
[b]

Thanks 25. The above statement is a very accurate statement of me and what I am battling. Fear about loss of pride and wounded ego. Those things are very strong in me... always have been.

One way that I am trying t look at is this...

If I decide now to walk away from my M and my W... to not forgive her.

In 5, 10 or whatever years, when the hurt is gone, when the feeling of having been disrespected is gone, when I have 'let it go' and long after OM has become a distant memory to both W and I...

When I run into my W and talk to her about her life, about ss's life, how am I going to feel? Am I going to feel regret at not having shared that life with her? Am I going to feel stupid for having let THIS cause me to miss that shared life together? Am I going to wish that I was the man who she ultimately did share her life with?

Is holding onto THIS... defending my ego... punishing W for disrespecting me... for wounding my pride... is it worth risking that the answers to those questions above might lead me to the ultimate regret?

Probably not.

Denver

[Sad_but_happy]

Hi 25... I wanted to just acknologe my roll in the problems of my marriage.

I absolutly detached. But not until more than 8 years of MC. Not until AFTER I told my W that I'm feeling lonely in the M. Not until after I told her that I wanted us to be closer, more connected. I told her that I was feeling like I was emotionally disconnecting from her.

Yes I communicated every feeling I had for years.

I guess you could say that I was the emotionally abused spouse in my relationship.

And I did emotionally leave.

Not because I wanted to.

Not because I didn't live my W.

I guess the best way to describe it is I was Denvers W. I felt unloved and unappreciated. I felt taken for granted.

And so I detached...


And so I see the roll I played. And I'm not deflecting the fact that I emotionally detached.

But no one plays a roll in driving someone to have an A.

Because if I had an A. It would be because I'm weak. Not because my W didn't make me feel loved.

I guess a PA is just MY limit. It's something I couldn't get over. Because its the one thing that my partner and I share that no one else can. It's special and valuable.

And I realize that's just me.

But this board IS about opinion. And I have mine.

Would I forgive my W if she had a PA? At some point I would.

Could I completely get over it? No way...

It means so much more than just a pleasure of the flesh. It's a connection. And for ME (and I'm only speaking for me) THAT connection must stay intact, unbroken and untarnished...

[25yearsmlc]

this board isn't about opinion, or having the last word


it's about a [b]solution based approach to solving marriage problems based on MWD's approach, called divorce busting
[/b]

as for the role you played in your m's problems?

Sorry I just hear you justifying/minimizing your role...to you, it's really all her fault

& you were "Denver's w"? really?

so you were the same as the woman you said was "WRONG!" to have an A, "EVER! with "NO EXCUSES!" ??


and this is Denver's thread. Where's yours?

[25yearsmlc]

look,

I'm sorry you were so miserable in your m.

But after 8 years of MC--- what I didn't hear

from you,

is what or how YOU changed...just how she was still wrong & you were still being "victimized"


but I hear that you are lonely and hurt and for that, I'm truly sorry

[Sad_but_happy]

What I changed? Whatever was needed...

When your S is truly unhappy within themselves there is little one can do.

I've always been the best H I could be. I still am. I vent here at times but at home I'm the person my W needs me to be. And I'm not a victim, I choose to stay. But that does not mean I'm not treated poolly.

My thread? No more for me. There is nothing anyone can help me with. I know what needs to be done. I don't say that to sound like a "know it all". I just know that the only person that can help me is me.

And as far as this board, I do have an issue with this new concept that everyone is wrong and everyone is right.

This is not a utopian world.

There is right and wrong in relationships.

There are victimizers and victims.

I look back and see how I treated my W and have no regrets.

If you knew me 25, you would not see the person you envision.

I am allowed to be angry.

And I know right from wrong. And I am allowed to point it out if I am being disrespected.

It's not ALWAYS about being happy or being right.

Denver caught his W with OM. She lied. She cheated. And she did it behind his back. And the only reason he knows is she got caught. Had she not been caught, he may have stayed another night. And it angered me.

Sometimes to been HAPPY, we need to point out what's RIGHT.

Just my opinion.

[Denver_2010]

Hello Denver, you don't know me from these boards. I'm like a lot of newcomers, in that, I've been reading here (early on a month ago, sometimes reading all night)..

haven't posted about my own deal yet; so I don't know that this will even post before this thread locks. Anyhow, I feel compelled to offer my own two cents worth if you don't mind.

I needed to forgive someone once that I found the desire to, and even inwardly proclaimed my forgiveness for her (and him).. but wherever the rubber hit the road, I found myself wholly without the ability to forgive..

Someone said something to the effect, that a powerful dynamic re: forgiveness is simply the willingness to allow that forgiveness to come to her, for her, from the same higher source from which I seek forgiveness for myself.

I also had to assimilate the fact, that, I did not have clean hands in the whole affair, (affair).. see what I did there ;- )

Anyhow, the decompression was powerful. Free unmerited favor,
(sometimes unmerited in an abject, almost paradoxical sense)..

Forgiveness isn't something 'earned'. It's like real love; comes free of charge, dismisses any past indictments. Unless forgiveness (more apt, the willingness to forgive) is offered by the better loving man, on an unmerited basis; it's nothing much more than immature equivocating..

And again, this kind of forgiveness (the real deal, so to speak,)
isn't a built in ability to our human condition. It comes from higher up.

But, it is available to whosoever is willing to receive
it..

Peace
I wish you the peace that transcends all understanding..(even that of our own situations)


I'm 57, she's 56. I run her off with my own inimitable
drunken nonsense.. 22yr M (T 27 yrs.) 4 grown sons, lots of
fine grandkids.. I'm in Colorado, she's at the youngest sons
in N Carolina, ~ a month now. But I'm good, (better than I have any right to be,)

Thanks for your post Danl. I agree with you 100%. Post your story so that you can really benefit from all of the great wisdom around here. It has been invaluable to me.

Denver

[25yearsmlc]

beautifully, powerfully written Dani


"Amen" to Denver's response...

[Denver_2010]

UPDATE...

I have not initiated any contact with W.

W and I had no contact from the time that we had our long convo (my last update) until Wednesday late morning.

I was at a coffee shop close to our house. W and SS showed up unexpectedly. I was sitting outside with my dogs. W and SS sat down with me. W and I talked about SS and his school situation and made other small talk.

I went inside to get another coffee and W stayed outside. While I was waiting for my coffee, there were 2 fairly attractive women waiting for their's as well. One of them was talking about putting vodka in a water bottle. I began joking with her and asked her if they were having a big party. They laughed and began telling me about a cruise that they are getting ready for, thus the vodka in the water bottle conversation. They got their coffee and left.

I got my coffee, walked outside and sat down with W. W said to me, "I think that girl wants your telephone number." Then SS said in a teasing way, "yeah, they were saying how cute you were."

I laughed it off, but I could tell that W was irritated.

A few minutes later, W asked me, "What, were you flirting with those girls inside?"

I said, "NO. I talked to them, but I wasn't flirting. Why do you say that?"

W: "I don't know. They sure acted like you had been flirting with them."

Me: "I was just being friendly W. I wasn't flirting."

SS then said to W, "Mom, why do you have to get mad about everything. He didn't even do anything wrong."

W did not respond, nor did I.

SS walked away and W then started in on me about how I always "presented yourself as single" when we were together. And then says that I need to "own your b.s. with SS so that he understands that I'm not getting mad for no reason."

I told W, "Listen, I know that there was a time that I did do that. But that was a long time ago W. I don't think that I have done that in a very long time. But I understand that it still bothers you."

SS came back over and I said to him, "SS, your mom wasn't getting mad at me without reason. I wasn't always respectful to her and probably wasn't setting a very good example for you when I did that. So I just want you to know that your mom had a reason to be mad at me, ok?" He said 'okay' and then went back to whatever he was doing.

W and I talked more about some other stuff. She seemed fine after I said what I did to SS. W then said that she was leaving to go run some errands.

Before she left, I said to her, "W don't think what I did with those women was wrong at all. I was just being friendly. Really. But I want to say to you that I have worked really hard to learn how I hurt you in the past and how not to do those things in the future. But it is a work in progress. I want you to be able to tell me when something I do bothers you. That's the only way that I can continue to learn."

W said, 'okay' and was friendly as she and SS got into her car. I told SS that goodbye and that I loved him. I told W bye and that I would talk to her later. She said ok and goodbye.

------------------

Didn't talk to W again until Friday.

On Friday, W texted me at lunch time.

W: "Just want you to know I may have found a place. It's a one year lease however. Haven't found anything for shorter. It's in Denver" (W and I live in suburb that is about 30 minute drive to Denver)

Me: "Ok W. I support you if you think that is the right thing to do."

W: "I think we aren't ready to be back together and I'm not sure what to do. I'm not dating anyone but I'm also not sure we are ready to work things out. I'd prefer not to move but I need to. I'd also prefer a shorter lease but can't find anything." (interesting that W reiterated that she's not dating anyone)

I did not respond. 15 minutes later W sends another text.

W: "There are a lot of things going on between SS and school, you and me, and needing to move. I just don't know."

Me: "I know. It is ok. I will support you no matter what. Let me know if you need help. If you decide that you want to stay in the house you are in now, I will help you while we figure things out."

W: "Maybe we can continue being separated and try to spend time together working through some stuff. I need to work on my anger towards you." (I am encouraged that W recognizes what she needs to work on)

Me: "I know. I really really do. It's ok."

W: "This house keeps SS at the same school. That probably is not a good option for him. I don't know what to do." (3rd time she said that she doesn't know what to do... just sayin)

Me: "No chance at getting him into your school or one of the others with the special program for him without moving?"

W: "No. Also haven't found a place near my school. Been looking but there are only apartments and I can't do that. I know the principal at one of the 2 schools with the special program, and he is a hard a$$. Probably have the same problems with SS. The other school is where S works as a dean. I hate to put S through that."

Me: "I still think having S there wold be a good thing. Not bad. But you definitely know better than me. I don't have any ideas. But Denver schools s*ck"

W: "Maybe you could help me get him into the school we know would be best for him instead of us risking another year of hell. We know that Denver Academy is best. It's just money."

Me: "W I will. But we really need to figure out how we're going to do that. I am fully committed to being a partner with you with SS. I am."

Me: "It's tough for me to be half involved, then out of the picture, then back in. I don't know."

W: "I understand that, but if we are taking space then I need a place. I'm going to do what I can to put SS in Denver Academy and I'm looking for a place by there for commuting reasons. We can still work on us and deal with living arrangements when the time is right, but me moving home in a week sounds like we are jumping the gun."

W: "I'd like to try to give it the summer before I consider moving back and I can't see how staying in our current house helps anything."

Me: "No, I agree. Let's talk later ok? I have to head to Boulder for court."

W: "K"

-------------------

I had court in Boulder. I decided to stay up there afterwards to go for a hike with some friends and then go out with them.

I texted W before I had too many drinks asking her to send me info on Denver Academy.

W called me.

W was irritated that I was out. Said something about how it must be nice to be able to afford to live it up.

I was nice as she vented her frustration about money.

We talked for about 45 minutes, but I can't remember much about it (guess that I had already had too many drinks LOL).

The gist of it was about SS and this private school and me telling W that there was no way that we could afford it AND be paying for 2 places.

I told W that if I were her, that I would stay where she is at for at least July, that trying to find a place by June 22nd is too much pressure. That if she signs a 1 year lease, then we are stuck in it even if we do work things out and she decides to move back into our house.

W is clearly frustrated with the problems that SS is having with school. She is right that the private school is the best option for him and his issues. I wasn't trying to pressure her into moving back into our home. In fact, I didn't even bring it up. Nor do I think that it is best right now. At the same time, what I said about not being able to afford a private school for SS while we have 2 places is true. It can't happen. So her choices are stay where she is, which she can't afford anyway, and have SS go to the school he has been in and has really struggled at. OR, move to another location where he could go to a different school... which probably wouldn't be any different. Her idea of moving by the private school makes no sense to me... it doesn't get him in there.
---------------------------

Saturday morning.

The following morning W texted me:

W: "Can I deposit that check you gave me?" (I had given W a check for $250 to help her about 3 weeks ago. W hadn't cashed it.)

I didn't respond (bc I was out cold and hung over from too much sangria)

W: "You must be hung over and asleep. I need coffee and have no money. I'm going to deposit the check. If u need me to give you money tomorrow I will."

Me: "Ok."

W texted me again a bit later.

W: "I need to pay off my credit card debt. Then I would be able to have money for things like survival and private schools."

That text sounded irritated and sarcastic so I did NOT respond.

W texted me again about 30 minutes later.

W: "Did you stay in Boulder or come home?"

Me: "No. I'm at home."

Me: "Going to go get some coffee. I will buy you one if you want to come by. "

W: "Got one. Thanks though. Need to do some packing so I ran and came back. Gotta long day."

Me: "Ok."

-----------------

W called me a few hours later to ask me if I could print some lyrics for her show that night (she doesn't have a printer). I told her that I would.

W texted me a couple of hours later.

W: "Can you help me out by bringing the lyrics here and drop SS at his friend's house? Running later of course."

Me: "sure. Be there in a few minutes."

I went to W's house. She was in her bedroom blow drying her hair. I put her lyrics on the table and told SS to get his stuff. W did not know that i had arrived. I told SS to tell his mom goodbye. He ran upstairs to tell her. W came downstairs and thanked me. She walked me to the door and I left.

Didn't hear from W until this evening (sunday).

W texted me to tell me that she and SS were meeting her cousins at City Park by my office. She wanted to know if she could park at my office. I responded that she could.

A bit later, W called to tell me that she had parked at my office... and then she brought up the concert that we have tomorrow night. Neither of us had talked about whether or not she was still going.

I guess that she just assumed that she was going... she asked me what time the concert was.. I told her that I didn't know and that I would touch base with her tomorrow.

So that's it for now.

Good times!

BITS
Denver