There not degrees of forgiveness. You either forgive or you do not.
I do not disagree that A’s are wrong. Of course they are. I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise. To me it is like yelling over and over that the sky is blue.
If we did not believe it was wrong, it wouldn’t require forgiveness in the first place.
You don’t need to forgive someone for giving you a lollipop.
BITS
Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
We are all entitled to our own views. They come from our experiences, upbringing, moral codes, etc...
I ask that you all take a step back, and really think about a post that you are passionate about. Are you coming across as, atacking? Are your views substantial enough to stand on their own without tearing another's views down?
Enough people hammering a point on 1 or 2 people and those 1 or 2 people...likely might not come back here. Fostering an us vs them atmosphere.
The only solid answers lie in math. All other answers are subjective.
Jack - Blue is the best color! Mach - No Red is! Blue isn't the right way to go. Jack - You take your red and shove it. (you can almost see the no win here, and escalation that will come.)
In the past and likely in the future, I'll be guilty of not following my own advice. But I try.
Here of all places...every day, you have the chance to put into practice DB while communicating.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
This argument about right and wrong seems to me like one of those occasions when both you and your spouse are "right" to some extent and an opportunity to exercise how 25 signs off "would rather be right or happy?"
FWIW: I do not think the word "degree" of right and wrong is the best way to frame the discussion. I offer the example of simple theft: one who steals a million dollars is guilty of a greater offense that one who steals a dollar.
I believe a better word is "gravity." Right is right and wrong is wrong, but the "gravity" (or graveness) of one sin may indeed be greater or less than another. That is why adultry is so difficult to get past, when other things may be easier to forgive and forget.
Just my two cents. Have a great weekend everyone. Pickle.
Me 53 XW 50 M 18 Years +2 S14 D19 Bomb 10-24-10 Served 1-27-11 Mediate 4-21-11 Civil D Final 6-2-11 No church anullment "A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits."
I offer the example of simple theft: one who steals a million dollars is guilty of a greater offense that one who steals a dollar.
I'll counter with a joke: An old man at a posh party ends up talking with a stunning young model. After a few moments he asks her, "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars."
She smiles and leans forward, allowing the cut of her dress to accentuate his view. "We'd do more than sleep." She breathed.
The old man, sips his wine, and then asks, "Would you sleep with me for one dollar?"
The young woman's smile is replaced with scorn and she straightens up quickly. "What do you take me for a prostitue?"
"That fact has been established," he drinks the rest of wine, "we are simple haggling over the price."
The $1 thief, did he take it from a child? Was it the only dollar the victim owned?
The million dollar thief, did he take it from a corrupt company? Like Robin Hood?
Circumstances, as well as gravity play a part. However, I'm not sure at least to me, that determining this is the goal.
To me, I think assigning levels of fault or blame impede forgiveness. My wife didn't owe me 4 "I'm sorry's" while I only had to provide her 1.
The goal, for me, was to hear, a sincere apology, and to see her live up to it.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
Yes Harrier, my W had an EA and I believe she kissed the person...
And she has not communicated with him in 7 months. And the actually EA lasted 45 days. And she is 100% committed to our M...
She told me just last night before we ML, "you are such a great guy. And a much better partner than me."
And even with all that...
You are all correct, I have not forgiven her...
Not sure if I can... Which is why I envy and respect all of you...
funny...I didn't see any respect from you. Just yelling.
Here's something you said in February after you made your w choose you or the OM/EA... she stopped the EA. But she was very depressed. I would peek in the shower and watch her cry. Truth be told, I didn't feel bad for her at all. She did wrong and was paying the consequences. God you sound so punitive here. As if you enjoyed her pain...(except for the ego part.) Then you said to Punchy
A year is a long time... The hardest thing for me Punchy is this...
I MAKE THE MONEY...
So she saw him with the car I pay for So she emailed him from the computer I paid for She texted him from the phone I pay for
Very f'ing frustrating and hurtful! BECAUSE I WANT ALL THE POWER/CONTROL
I do understand my roll in the demise of our marriage but there is no excuse for cheating... REALLY? Where do you ever discuss that? Oh, the "understandable" withdrawal you did for 2-3 years preceeding her EA?
If she had had sex with OM, then al bets would have been off... She would have been done..
But as it stands things are good..
The odd thing for me is that women started to hit on me. It's like they can smell a single or available or vulnerable man... Very odd...
Was I close to taking a bite of the fruit? Yup! Wow....no insight here at all. You almost took the bite, just like your w ALMOST did. You spoke to women you were not married to? Were some of them attractive? Did they boost your ego? Soooo,
the ONLY real difference between your behavior and your w's, is ONE KISS?? No wonder you are so busy condemning/judging/defending yourself...scary to look within, isn't it?
Did I? Nope... And that was with the help of these boards and the great people here...
When all you want is love, and someone is willing to give you something that looks like love, it's hard to resist.. Really measures your character!
Wonder if your w could say the same thing,
since by your own admission, you had checked out of the m long before she did...
But of course in your case, it's different. YOU were justified in that, you were justified pretty much in everything...whereas
She has, "NO EXCUSE!! EVER!!"
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
sorry, I didn't see your post before I posted mine.
I discussed forgivness in an interview once (cause I'm so darn famous & important )
that the "most important lesson I ever learned...Oh, easy...how vital forgiveness is AND how to do it." Forgiveness is, as my signature says, our way out of hell. It's MANDATORY to a happy m. Period.
SBH, I told Denver that if he KNOWS he cannot forgive, or if his w THINKS he won't, then they are doomed.
No one wants the sword of Damacles over their head the rest of their lives b/c their sin was the worst one....
It doesn't work that way. You have a real scorecard, and it shows every time you discuss your history SBh...that will doom you as it is record keeping & proof, of Not forgiving
I could go on-- but SBH if you are not ready to learn about forgiveness, you will stay stuck (or your m will end when your w gets tired of having to wear a hair shirt). If you are ready to learn about it, there are resources here.
Denver, hope this helps you in some way. Probably reinforces what you already know. And I think your choice will lead you to the other side, whatever choice you make.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Soap box much 25? Yea, I get on one every now and then... But so do you...
In all honesty, I love this debate. And I stand firm in my beliefs. Without anger... That's right, it's not anger, it's passion...
Most of us forgive the A out of fear, at least at first. Fear of losing everything, fear of change, fear of being alone.
Denver set a boundary about OM. His W did not respect it. In fact, she was lying to Denver all along. And the ONLY reason he knows about the OM is she got caught.
So what's the solution and advice from everyone on this board? Forgive her AGAIN...
And that's fine if that's what you want Denver.
But as I said before, how many times is the LBS supposed to get kicked in the BA!!s? At some point instead of standing right in front of our S with easy access to our NUT$, you have to turn around and........ Walk away.
And I respect that everyone has their own limits and time line for this.
Including me...
A few posts ago Cat asked if I was looking for perfection...
I'm not...
I'm looking for a partner that is faithful and that will not cheat no matter how difficult life is...
Because that's what I deserve... And that's what I expect...
Have an awesome weekend all...
GO BRUINS!!!!
M: 42 - W: 41 - M: 18 - T: 23 - D:16 S:14 EA - July 2010 NC w/EA - Nov 2010 Piecing - Jan 2011 I ask for div - Jan 2012 Div papers filed - Mar 2012 I move out - July 2012 Divorce final - Nov 7, 2012
I hope you know it would be mostly fear that would Prevent you from forgiving fear of being hurt again, fear about loss of pride and wounded ego none of these are reasons to forgive, Least of all fear
AND in my case,
the last thing I wanted to do was forgive my h (I sounded a lot like someone else who "enjoys" this debate, and avoids questions about his own role or what he said elsewhere...& deflects)
But it was NOT fear that got me to forgive
First, it was just me being tired of being consumed by my pain and feeling so "unfree". Always told people what h had done TO ME...wanted them to agree with me, validate all that I said, etc
I was not getting bEtter, I was getting bItter and did not like how I sounded when I talked to people, as I got a mere taste of what sbh is getting here and that bothered me.
and second, and more importantly,
I wanted to KNOW I'd done my best as a believer. I told my mc that.
If Christ didn't teach us about forgiveness as THE priority,
then I missed a major concept
Denver, I posted a story about forgiveness that might move you, as it did me. IT's around here, under "Forgive or else, what?"
good luck my L friend
You know I'm rooting for you no matter what. I am hoping you forgive, regardless of your other choices, and I know you get that.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
)