"I would have agreed with everything that you just said 7 months ago SBH. What I have learned in the past 7 months though?
1) Love and marriage/relationships... it is not a zero sum game...
2) That we can never say just how we will react to any given situation until we actually face it."
I hear you Denver. And I understand. Maybe you're in a different place than I.
Good luck my friend...
M: 42 - W: 41 - M: 18 - T: 23 - D:16 S:14 EA - July 2010 NC w/EA - Nov 2010 Piecing - Jan 2011 I ask for div - Jan 2012 Div papers filed - Mar 2012 I move out - July 2012 Divorce final - Nov 7, 2012
"But I do want to say that it takes a heck of a man to face his own past behavior and mistakes, acknowledge the root of the problem and embrace change."
All well and good Thatgirl...
I wonder if his W plans on doing the same.
"I was simply offering him a glimpse into his W's perspective because I could identify so much with her in the scope of the conversation he replayed for us."
I get it Thatgirl.
But you fail to mention, as do most of the posters, that Denver also has a "perspective". And can you relate to HIS difficulties in the M.
She cheated!
Bottom line!!!
If you cheated on a test would you blame the teacher?
There is NO justification!!!
NO cause!!!
NO excuse!!!
NO reason!!!
She can divorce Denver and do what she wants.
BUT THEY ARE M!!!!!
Sorry to hijack Denver. But I'm so sick and tired of us men being the CAUSE of our spouses unhappiness.
She CHOOSE to have an A!!!
IT'S WRONG!!! BOTTOM LINE!!!
SBH - OUT!!!
Man... you're really putting me in a position where I need to defend my W here ... and beat myself up even more than I already have SBH.
Listen, I get you. I do. Like I said though, this is not a zero sum game. And there really are no winners in my sitch. NONE.
I really f'd up my M. I own that. I don't run from it, and I don't hide from it.
I also know that I am going to work a helluva a lot harder in that M if it is reconciled.
I also recognize that my W made mistakes. Her mistakes during the M? Minimal compared to me.
Her mistakes since she LEFT ME and MOVED OUT? Well, I guess that's a matter of perspective.
I struggle with this bc there is a huge part of me that believes like you do.
But that is NOT the only perspective that there is.
Many people believe that it is perfectly acceptable to date when you are separated.
Many people think that it is perfectly acceptable to 'move on' when you are emotionally divorced ... and that the legal paperwork means nothing.
OTOH... there are others who are religious and believe that once you marry, that is forever... that even a legal divorce does not end that commitment.
I royally f'd up in my M. I did not honor certain vows to love and cherish my W. Some might say (including my W) that I was unfaithful by coveting other women (porn/strip clubs).
My W gave me numerous chances to change. She was faithful, she loved me, she worked her a$$ off to get me to love her like I should have.
Finally, she was DONE.
She left me.
She moved out.
She began a new life... In a new home...
She had no intention of ever returning to me.
She was emotionally divorced from me.
Does all of this justify the fact that she entered into another romantic R?
I have NO F'ing clue! I'm not a god... I'm not ruler of the universe.
My choices going forward come down to a few simple questions:
1) Can I forgive myself for playing a huge role in all of this?
2) Can I forgive my W for the things that my pride and my ego struggle with?
3) Do I love my W?
4) Can I trust my W if she ever fully commits to me again?
5) Can I trust myself to be the change that I have worked so hard to attain here?
All of the rest? It really doesn't matter anymore. It is yesterday's news. I'm focused on tomorrow, and the next day... and the next...
Does this make me weak or a doormat? Nope. Not IMO. And no one here, if you knew me, would ever think of me as weak or a doormat. Never been my style.
Bottom line is that I'm going to take what I want from all of the advice, opinions and feedback that I get here... and I'm going to throw the rest away.
I'm going to make my own choices... And F those who don't like it or who disagree with it.
This isn't an attack on you at all SBH. I respect your opinion. I do. And, like I said, 7 months ago... well, I would have been the first one on board with you.
But having lived this has changed my perspective on A LOT of my former beliefs.
Denver
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
But you fail to mention, as do most of the posters, that Denver also has a "perspective". And can you relate to HIS difficulties in the M.
She cheated!
Bottom line!!!
If you cheated on a test would you blame the teacher?
There is NO justification!!!
NO cause!!!
NO excuse!!!
NO reason!!!
I get what you are saying SBH, BUT I have also seen NO Wife be as brutally honest as what Denver's wife has.
She admitted it, she explained why, and I DO SEE hope based on that. It's all about how Denver wants to move forward.
The way you are talking, it's punitive. True, but it's Denvers choice. He has the option to enforce the boundary. HE has the choice to accept HER feelings. Right or wrong, honesty is the beginning of communication.
The affair was a symptom of a bad marriage. The real problem is the old Denver and the old her. Who forgives who first and what will they do to achieve a new relationship. There is a choice. Not yours to make friend.
Denver, hold the boundary, let her pursue the NEW you. Don't hold it over her, but just move on and keep doing what you are doing. If she likes what she sees....she WILL pursue you.
Yep, Denver. You get it. You have things in perspective. From the way you described your discussion with your wife, it is possible that she is a person who can (if she wants to) put things into perspective and reconsider them. I hope she wants to.
SBH, you sound like a fire and brimstone preacher talking to criminals...with a righteousness that blinds you
but then you repeated it, so it's not a one time loss of control.
But All I "hear"
is you yelling and screaming in so much anger, that you sound like you WANT to hit someone...
that's what I hear
Yes, your beliefs do go against the grain, & I submit, they go against DBing...
This is a solution based approach. Yours doesn't sound like that to me.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Listen guys and gals... I'm not angry at all. Honestly not one bit.
I get what this site and philosophy is all about. Changing yourself. I get it. And I agree with it.
But when a person has an A for whatever reason they are wrong.
Let me tell you all something about me. I was/am the more giving one in my M. Unlike Denver, I have few regrets with the way I treated my W the first 14 years of M. I treated my W like absolute gold. My W was not kind, giving, or pleasant to be around. From years 14-16 I disconnected.
So I ask you all, if I had an A at say year 10, should I be "respected", "understood", "soothed"?
I say NO, that an A is wrong. That if I'm unhappy I make it absolutly clear and move out.
Denver, I'm not saying leave your W. And I'm not saying that your W should not be forgiven or given a second, third or forth chance.
I'm just saying that there is no justification for having an A. And I do not "respect", "see eye to eye with", or "understand" anyone that has an A for any reason, male or female. And it seems that on this site the LBS takes 90% of the blame for the WAS actions including having an A.
You don't need to defend your W to me Denver. I'm sure she is a lovely woman and just as sure you were a total a$$ in your M. But can we stop defending and finding justification for a S to have an EA/PA...
And I have grest respect for you Denver, 2step, 25, thatgirl, country, and many others...
And trust me when I tell you that I struggle with my opinions of what's right and wrong, forgivable and unforgivable over the course of a M.
And I envy the fact that all of you can rationalize, reason and forgive in the face of great pain... It's really awesome. And I hope to get there some day,
M: 42 - W: 41 - M: 18 - T: 23 - D:16 S:14 EA - July 2010 NC w/EA - Nov 2010 Piecing - Jan 2011 I ask for div - Jan 2012 Div papers filed - Mar 2012 I move out - July 2012 Divorce final - Nov 7, 2012
Holding on to anger, holding on to self righteousness, standing on a soapbox and pointing fingers, doesn't serve the goals of reconciliation or healing, and it does go against DB principals...
It won't lead you to reconciliation in the long term...
We all make mistakes, there are no degrees of mistake or bad choices really, just mistakes and bad choices, or simply choices that dont "fit" with what we expect (I hate to say that just because a choice isn't the one that I would have made that it is bad.)
Denver, as a lawyer, where there are degrees of badness, and punitive damages, this may be where you are having a problem...
As much as I rag you about that, you really do have to take the legal thinking out if this. It just isn't that black and white, just like to a victims family it is as black and white as say --first degree murder-intent-life in prison; drunk driving accident-manslauter-no intent, no thought-20 years in prison. To them, their loved one is still dead because of someone else...And it hurts the same and they have to find their ways to forgive and heal...
We forgive, for ourselves...
So that we don't live in anger, bitterness, and rage...
We forgive, to have the opportunity to reconcile...
Or eventually enter into a new R...
Or be alone...
And be truly happy...
We become better people through this process...
So that we don't repeat our mistakes...
Now Denver,
As far as Thatgirl and my posts...
TG said it and I will repeat...
You may have been a crap H...
You made mistakes...
You treated your W like crap...
We all get that, including you...
On her side (because she isn't as rosy as you want to paint her)...
What she is going to have to deal with or is dealing with, her anger makes me think that she is close but probably not there yet...
She allowed the treatment. She allowed herself to be mistreated. She allowed herself to be neglected, to be abused. (Yes people hate that word, but emotional abuse is still abuse).
She has to deal with that. She has to understand why she became that way...Either it was simply the dynamics of the way the two of you interacted, or something deeper within her...
Like you didn't set out to be a neglectful H, she didn't set out to be accepting of that sort of treatment either...
It is something that happens over time...
While you should understand your role and her perspective, you should also understand her role in that...because she does have one...
Women who get physically abused by their H's, don't ask for that behavior, are not responsible for it, but when they do nothing to change it or remove themselves from the situation, then they become just as responsible for it continuing...
I don't know if that makes sense to you but it is true...
Keep giving her time, let her deal with these things, she has to step out of the victim role she has painted herself into...
She needs to find forgivness for you (which is actually the easy part) but she also has to find forgivness of herself and that is hard to do...
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
Listen guys and gals... I'm not angry at all. Honestly not one bit.
You definitely come across as very angry. The exclamation points, the tone, the hammering home your point. I know you say that you're not angry, but maybe possibly you should look a bit deeper.
Let me tell you all something about me. I was/am the more giving one in my M. Unlike Denver, I have few regrets with the way I treated my W the first 14 years of M. I treated my W like absolute gold. My W was not kind, giving, or pleasant to be around. From years 14-16 I disconnected.
So I ask you all, if I had an A at say year 10, should I be "respected", "understood", "soothed"?
I say NO, that an A is wrong. That if I'm unhappy I make it absolutly clear and move out.
You have a perspective, but I think that it is difficult for you to step outside of that perspective and see where other people are coming from. Denver's sitch, isn't your sitch and you can not paint him with the same brush. First, of all, as you stated, his wife was "unhappy, made it absolutely clear and moved out".
Furthermore, many people who have affairs because of the way they were treated/or how their spouses have changed, etc. do find sympathy, empathy and justification from society. Just surf the internet and take a look around. Affairs are rampant in our society and many people feel that they are justified in having them and are validated when they do. That's not my opinion, but it is reality.
I'm just saying that there is no justification for having an A. And I do not "respect", "see eye to eye with", or "understand" anyone that has an A for any reason, male or female. And it seems that on this site the LBS takes 90% of the blame for the WAS actions including having an A.
You don't need to defend your W to me Denver. I'm sure she is a lovely woman and just as sure you were a total a$$ in your M. But can we stop defending and finding justification for a S to have an EA/PA...
And herein lies the crux of the problem. You see, we are not telling Denver that he doesn't have a perspective, yet that is what you infer. We are not saying that he needs to understand, respect or see eye-to-eye with his W's affair. We are saying that if he wants to reconcile with his W, then he has to understand and respect her. His W is more than the sum total of her actions in the last six months. His W is the woman he married, the woman who stood by him through thick and thin for years. She is more than her mistakes. And when you can only see your W as a one-dimensional action, then you will never be in a place where you are able to reconcile with her. And that may be your journey, but it doesn't have to be Denver's.
FWIW, most of what you said about your M, could be said about mine. So, I can definitely understand how you feel.
Me: 33, H: 32 M: 12 years T: 13 years No kids D-Day: 7/2009 Separated: 10/12/10 Future Unknown GITS
"There's a fire starting in my heart, reaching a fever pitch and it's bringing me out the dark." - Adele
I was/am the more giving one in my M. Unlike Denver, I have few regrets with the way I treated my W the first 14 years of M.
SBH
I don't think it is about finding justification for an A. It's about trying to understand the reason for it.
You said you treated your wife like gold for 14 years of your M. I don't know about the other 2 years. Yet despite this golden treatment your W still had an EA, correct? Kissed another man? correct? Thought she was in love with him and had no connection to you? correct?
So do you know why this happened? Did you gain any insight to the issues that lead to this breach of trust?
I'm not bringing this up to cause you pain, but to highlight the affair (even an EA) is an issue for Both of you, caused by both of you, and has to be fixed by both of you.
I think your wife's EA still pains you - a lot. But the main thing keeping it alive now is not forgiving. Forgiving doesn't mean excusing, doesn't mean forgetting.
The forgiveness isn't for your W it's for you.
I know Denver isn't there yet. I've started down that road myself.
Focusing on the actions of the A, takes the focus off the real issues at play here.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. --Jean Jacques Rousseau.
