It's Over

[Denver_2010]

I want to thank everyone who took the time to read my last update and especially those who sent me words of support and advice. I know that to do that took a lot of time and thoughtfulness.

I'm going to respond to some of the things that stood out to me. I apologize if I don't respond to your post specifically. There is lots of good stuff here.

First, I want to clarify that OM is not 19 years old. It was a smarta$$ comment I made to OM when confronting him to say 'grow up and be an adult'.

Second, I do not regret what I did yesterday. I know there were a few of you who pointed out that I had no right to go into her personal space. I get that and I agree. But I don't regret it. I was actually very careful to avoid violating any laws, at least technically. Yes, it was a violation of her personal space, but she has violated our M. Justified? I don't know. But it provided me with information that I needed and was not getting from her... at least not in a straight forward way.

Third, W tried to suggest that she did not have sex with OM, and I think it was Cat who said that I assumed a lot based on what I found. I do not completely discount the possibility that he stayed the night and they did not have sex. Of course that is possible. But for me, it really doesn't matter. OM stayed the night. I'm not going to try and minimize this knowledge by saying, 'oh well, maybe nothing happened'. It simply doesn't matter. If it didn't that night, it will on another, or maybe it did last week while I was out of town. I think that it's safe to assume that her PA will resume if it hasn't already.

Fourth, I do not regret confronting OM. In fact, this was an opportunity that I never thought I'd have. Whether or not my M reconciles, I will always know that I got to say my peace to him. And I will always remember the pathetic look on his face and he sat on that toilet and listened to me lecture him like a child. My W can be p!ssed at me all that she wants for this as well. She will either get over it and recognize that she would have done the same thing most likely, which I told her yesterday without response, or she won't get over it. In which case, she can have OM and I am better off.

Fifth, thanks to all of those who said that I handled it well. I think that I did. You never know how you will respond to a situation such as this until you are actually in it. I guess my handling of it can somewhat be credited to the many times that I imagined what I would do if I had this confrontation. So I was prepared. Did I want to clock him or kick him off the toilet and beat the living sh!t out of him? Yes. It briefly crossed my mind too. And I might have had he been even remotely aggressive or defensive with me. He was just pathetic.

So, with all of that said, here are some specific responses:

Based on the end of the convo, clearly your W is not done.

You said over and over that you are, but TBH, I don't buy it.

You said all of this just happened today.

Take some real time and think about it.

I think that you are right Country. W is not done. I felt some real concern on her part that I was serious about being done.

Me? I don't know yet. I felt done yesterday, but was beginning to soften even as the day wore on. I go back and forth today. I am going to follow the advice that you and others have given me to give it some time.

Sometimes we have to have these kinds of conversations to move forward - in either direction. It's ok, you did well.

Thank you Calystra. Your words struck me. I think that this is very true. I had another friend tell me:

"What happened had to happen. The puss must come out of a wound before it can heal."

I think that this is along those same lines.

Just wanted to let you know that I've been thinking about you all night and praying for you.
The kind of pain your feeling right now I wouldn't wish on anyone.
Just please, try to take this time to focus on you. I know, KNOW how hard that is to do when we're hurting.

I'd take away your pain if I could.

(((Hugs)))

DG - Your post made me cry. Not sure why. Thank you so much for caring.

I do want to suggest that you really go back and read what your W said to you.
Then go back and read your threads. All of them.
Your W, was very honest and blunt about her thoughts and feelings. And she has every right to feel that way.
You are still trying to control her.

Cat, I know that I have spoken of loving my W unconditionally on a number of occasions. I do love her, still do. And ultimately, I want her to be happy. With or without me. Am I trying to control her? I don't think so Cat. I am simply saying to her that I will not be in an open M. Here's the deal. She wants to take time and space. Okay I'm fine with that. She wants to continue to have me in her life to some degree. She wants to do things together occasionally. BUT, she wants to date OM. I'm not okay with that. I can't do it. I told her this yesterday and failed to mention it in my update. It was part of the telephone conversation.

W said, "you are focusing so much on OM and I don't understand why"

Me: "I don't care about OM. He doesn't matter. It wouldn't matter if it were some other guy. I can't continue to be in your life knowing that you are dating anyone. It is too painful for me. It is not about OM, it is about you. The idea of YOU being with someone else is too painful for me. And it's because I love you so much that I can't stand the idea of it. I can't do it W."

Basically what I'm saying is that this is too painful for me. I'm not trying to control her, I'm just saying that I'm removing myself from the equation. This is the same thing that I told W yesterday when she was accusing me of trying to control her. I guess I can see why it is being perceived by W like this, but it is simply me protecting myself from pain that I can bear.

You are NOT showing unconditional love right now. You are not showing the "new" Denver it doesn't seem.

Hmmm... I guess that I don't see unconditional love to mean that I let myself be kicked in the head over and over Cat. I mean, what if this went on for 5 years and I put up with it for that long, showing W unconditional love? Would I be wrong at that point to say enough is enough? That I have gone through enough pain and can't do it anymore.

I see it as I am giving her what she wants, space, time and freedom to do whatever it is she wants. I'm not saying that I don't love her bc of it. I'm simply saying that I need to protect myself.

I'm not trying to argue with what you are saying Cat. I admit that I am lost here. I hurt and I feel that the pain of W having OM in her life is too much. At least too much to remain as an active part of her life.

I see impatience, frustration, anger, control, self pity, and I also see you making threats that I don't know if you want to keep.

I said that I would be filing for a D once or twice yesterday. I regretted saying those words before I even posted my update yesterday bc I know that I pained myself into a corner. I'm not sure how I'm going to handle that, but I do know that I'm going to take some time before I do anything. My threat to remove myself from the equation? From her life for now? I absolutely mean that. I don't want any part of what she is doing now.

Impatience, frustration, anger, self pity??? Yes to all of it. I know. But the OM is just a factor that I cannot deal with. I won't. Yes my emotions are getting the better of me. But I can't deny them either.

were wrong in going into her house. Gutty feeling or not. It is NOT your house, and you don't own her. You don't know what, if anything happened or didn't. You made assumptions and jumped to conclusions after you violated her right to privacy and security.

I know that it was wrong. Like I said above, I don't regret it though. It was something that I needed to do. Assumptions and conclusions? Really Cat? Do you really think that I should hang my hat on the idea that NOTHING happened? I don't.

I'm sorry, I'm just frustrated. There is no clear answer to any of this and as I said, I'm lost right now.

Cat, thank you again for taking the time to keep up with me. I am obviously frustrated.

IMHO you need to stop all contact. The ball is in your court. You have the control. If she texts you, no matter how crazy, don't respond. Let her wonder what your next move is. You told her you would file, so let her stew on that. You don't need to explain anything.

Control Bond? Not sure how I have control right now or how the ball is in my court. Either way, I am leaning towards letting her stew and wonder what my next move is.

Let her experience that and feel what it might be like for real to not have DENVER or the possiblity of not having Denver.
She is a little scared in my opinion that you are done with her and is now losing all the power that you gave her and continue to do.

BE calm, be patient, be dark.

And this. My W needs to feel what life will be like without the 'new' Denver. The Denver that has been loving, attentive and caring for the past 3 months. I am shutting the gates to that Denver.

Everyone here has hit you with bricks. I'm not. I'm going to commend you on your boundary. Your NUT.

Thanks Faith. I think that it was time for me. You and some others have encouraged me to do this for some time now. I didn't think that it was quite time. What happened yesterday, IMO, gives me the 'right' to now be p!ssed and to stand up for myself. Bc it can no longer be justified by how I was in the M. Like I told my W yesterday, in February, when W told me about her A, I swallowed my pride, put my ego aside, recognized my role in causing that A, and made the decision to move on. This renewed A is not justified, it is cake eating. It is W taking advantage of knowing that I love her and want her to come back. It is W deciding that she is going to take advantage of the fact that we are still separated... take advantage by 'taking' while she can... to live her life for herself while she can.

I believe in my heart of hearts that W knows, or at least knew up until yesterday, that she was ultimately going to come back to our M. But I think that she decided that she would use this time that we are still separated as a kind of vacation that she may never get again. A vacation from the responsibilities of being a W... of being committed... of not being able to do whatever the F she wants to do.

That is NOT excusable in my book. It just isn't. Yes, I F'd our M up. I am at least 80% responsible for it. I recognize it, I own it, and I have apologized a million times for it. AND, I also recognize that W isn't going to heal from it overnight. But like I told her yesterday, she does NOT need to date OMs to process her feelings, her hurt and her emotions. Please correct me if I am wrong.

You now have the high ground and the TRUE gift of time.

Can you elaborate Faith? I don't see how I have the advantage here. The high ground? Do I? Is that different than having control or having the ball in my court?

Her words? It's all true, but she wouldn't have opened up and said them like this any other time until YOU busted it wide open.

Yes. As my friend said, the puss must come out of the wound before it can heal. My W's wounds sure have a lot of puss though.

Yeah, you have to be careful about laws and your actions, but I can say without a doubt I would have done the EXACT same thing if I were in your shoes. I'm not condoning your bad behavior, but it happened and it's over with. I understand. Now what?

I think that many, if not most, people would have done exactly what I did yesterday. I do not regret it and I would do it again if I had to repeat yesterday. Laws and my actions? I tried to be as careful as I could, but hell, I wouldn't regret it even had my W called the cops... even had I been charged with trespassing or harassment of OM (neither of which I believe that I am technically guilty of BTW)... It would have been worth it to me. Sorry. That is just how I feel.

I think this needed to happen and it did happen for a reason.

I think so too Faith.

My advice:

You laid out the boundary; now quit interacting with her. Take this gift of time to just disappear for awhile and let her wonder what you are going to do. Don't initiate anything yet. I agree with setting your countdown back to 90 and disappear for awhile. Any communication with her right now will be pointless and NOT good.

Something else to think about...put yourself in her shoes. You walked into her secret place and literally caught her eating cake while her other hand was up to her elbow in the cookie jar. Wouldn't you be pissed off too at being caught in such a humiliating moment? See a junkie shooting up and you take away their needle and RUIN their high? They are NOT going to be happy.

Give her and, most importantly, YOURSELF space and time. Let the dust settle. 90 days Denver.

That is my plan Faith. Even as I am responding to all of these posts, it is becoming more clear to me.

Go out and date

I have to admit that I am strongly considering this as well. I have done my best to be the better person for 6 months. To stand for my M through hell and high water. I'm beginning to feel more and more that it is time for me to begin to look out for myself and my own happiness.

BITS
Denver

[Truegritter]

W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"

She ain't done.

Are you?

Denver been worried about you while there was silence here for about a week.

Go back and read what was posted to you before you took sabatical.

What sparked this? What MADE you go by her house?

Now?

You set a boundary. Don't be a paper tiger. Enforce it the same way you lived your promise to be patient and give her space and live your life.

It is easier to enforce than to embrace.

Easier to run than admit your own shortcomings.

What promises did you make to yourself here?

F@ck your W right now.

This has always been YOUR journey. YOUR changes.

YOU man. You let it be about her and her choices again. Couldn't let go of that? We have all been there.

Dust yourself off.

YOUR self respect did not spring from confronting a f@cking coward on a toilet.

Remember THAT guy. Cause he is going to run your life.

And ruin your life.

IF you let someone elses actions make YOUR choices for you.

What does Denver do from here?

There is a man at the counter selling one way tickets to Bitterville. There is a seat with your name on it and in it you will find anger, denial, regret, self punishment, self loathing...

and three people in this f@cked up world that deserve better.

Character is not what you can convince her to believe about you Denver.

It is who you are when the lights go out at night and there is no one there but you.

[BeTheMan]

I am sick of losing my self respect and licking up crumbs and literally HATE to see others do it.

Your self respect is determined by your wife's actions?

Not arguing with you.

I just don't agree with you.

My loss of self respect would have come from my actions. Not from my wife's choice of a duchebag lover.

This choice to try your best to save a marriage, this is the worse part of: "for better or worse."

Better is a piece of cake.

But don't ever compare your self worth to your wife's horrible choices.

Your self esteem and worth should be a bit battered because of what you own up to in your part of your marriage failing, but not from her choices. Not as long as you're addressing your failings.

I never said that my self respect is determined by STBX's actions and it's not. My actions ate at my self respect. No matter what she did, I kept trying harder and harder. She was literally doing every thing she could to destroy our marriage and our family and I just kept trying to make it better.

I forgave myself a long time ago for my failings in the marriage. I more than made up for them with Herculean efforts over the last 5 years.

What I meant by my comments was that I lost some respect for myself in that it was like she could do anything, and it would be just fine with me - as long as she came home some day. But....I quit a couple weeks ago and ever since then I feel so much better.

You would have to read all my threads to understand this...but I never had a chance. STBX had a carefully laid out plan from day one and there was nothing I could do to combat it and save my marriage.

But....I did save BTM!

[BeTheMan]

Sorry about the thread hijack. I had to make all that clear to anyone who was so moved by some of the posts on this thread.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

It is as good a thread as any, and beter than most, what with all the traffic : )

What I meant by my comments was that I lost some respect for myself in that it was like she could do anything, and it would be just fine with me - as long as she came home some day.

In that I agree.

Taking them back at any price? Is not worth the price.

[FaithnAK]

You now have the high ground and the TRUE gift of time.

Can you elaborate Faith? I don't see how I have the advantage here. The high ground? Do I? Is that different than having control or having the ball in my court?

You can only control yourself. Period. Ball has always been in your court. It never left. You could pass the ball to her, but right now she just wouldn't catch it and it would probably roll right on by and your stuck having to go pick it up again. If she did pick it up or catch at all, she probably throw it for you to fetch it or chuck it at you like she was playing dodgeball.

High Ground - I see you always looking up from a low position. All your hard work Denver, all of it, even if it was partly for her to notice, will still be the new you that YOU must achieve and maintain for the rest of your life. With or without her. You have the high ground because when you stand on a hill or a mountain and really look at the view of the surrounding areas, things look much differently now. You can see so much, reality is in your face. You can see where you want to go from here, or you could walk right back down the same path that got you there. Before you were just climbing hoping to see something along the way that would change this sitch and become better.

My point? Stay on the high ground and watch, don't make a move, just take it all in and come to a place where you can make a rational decision. Before you move on or forward, take in the view, because how you proceed from this "Revelation" is now completely your choice.

What happens after a nasty wild fire destroys thousands of acres? New growth.

[Denver_2010]

This choice to try your best to save a marriage, this is the worse part of: "for better or worse."

I have told myself this over and over during the past 6 months Jack. At what point do we need to begin to look out for ourselves though? Yes this has been the 'worse' part of my M vows. And I have hung in there. But what happens when your W just takes advantage of you sticking with her through the 'worse'? I'm struggling with this right now.

[BeTheMan]

Denver - We should be looking out for ourselves from day one - and if we also manage to save our marriages, great. STBX took advantage of me sticking with her for so long it almost destroyed me. She literally broke me down. But when I reached the point of being broken, I somehow managed to start building myself back up - and not in her image. There is a point at which we all need to "quit" as I call it and let our spouses live the life they have chosen and quite often really, really worked to get to. I truly believe that in hindsight, we will all see that we waited too long. But...it will let us sleep easier than knowing we didn't wait long enough. We won't have to live with the guilt our WAS do.

[ninelives]

Denver:

I have thought long and hard about your sitch. What is it that you really want right now? I'll bet you cant really answer that with 100% certainty at the moment. Ill bet you fluctuate from one moment to the next.

So I believe, for the time being, DONT make any final decisions right now. 2steps post was awesome. When I got back on this site, you and 2step seemed to dominate the board; in a good way.

Look at all the people that have responded to you Denver. There is no question that you are a very likeable person that will do well one way or another.

If I can mirror your sitch a little. What do I want most , and I am calm right now. I want my Wife back and my family together , but its not that simple. I dont want that at the cost of my self respect and self worth. Before all this crap happened, I was positive I could never accept an affair and a continued relationship with my W and even entertain the thought of accepting her back.

The bottom line is that we get one life to live. Many people have advised me to move on and I will, When I CANT take it anymore. When she crosses that line where I can NEVER forgive her. Because, we have the rest of our lives to heal from this and to have a great, not good , but great life with our Children and all that goes with it. Thats why IM still entertaining the thought of starting a new R with my W.

Dont let ANYONE tell you different. ONly YOU can tell when you are being a doormat or when you are standing up for what you believe in. As I mentioned earlier, one thing you know for sure now is that your NEW wife is capable of lying to you about her affair. YOu would not accept that before.

YOu have some real tough decisions to make in the future. NOt the near future because they would be based on emotion and hurt.
Take some real time and decide which way you want to go and ONLY YOU can make that final choice. There is a great deal of good advice here. Sift through it and make the right choice for you.

And even then, it may not be the final choice because life is always changing.

All the best my friend. Im thinking about you alot.

9

[Denver_2010]

Update...

So... Today was a landmark day/event in my sitch. This will be a long update. I really would appreciate whoever sticks around to read it all. It is somewhat comical... but mostly horrific.

Bottom line? I am done. Barring a miracle, my marriage is over.

Denver, first off, all is not lost, necessarily.

I read it all. I did laugh...fwiw...( cough cough) ahem...

The text conversation and phone conversation UNTIL the end, pretty much was batshit stuff and you know it.

You may have been calm on the phone but the problem was that you were ON the phone at all...you know this already of course...
[color:#FF0000]
Here's the deal...I'll post about the end of the convo but I'm concerned about your repeated statements that you would file b/c you "have no choice" AND you must if you are "self respecting". Sort of paints you into a corner. In a way, how can you NOT file, something?

Are there legal seps there? Can you file a warning letter or something less than div? AND don't forget, here, only 1/3 of divorces filed are ever finalized...

The bad news is, that sometimes I think she has you by the ba!!s and NOT

in an attractive way. That can help a situation when you are compensating

and doing 180s but at some point it has to equalize out. She KNOWS she's abusing you...and she continues...enough already.

Sorry but it's just my first impression. YES I know you were a horrible evil troll to her

and she was the perfect wife, always, (here's a tiny dose of reality-

having a batshit son isn't easy, and it's NOT attractive to a lot of men, nor are there many who want the chance to father HIM.

THIS she will learn soon, if she doesn't already know it..)...

She has baggage most men won't deal with unless she's the hottest babe around AND OR has some serious money. AND Or unless they're losers. I dated a bit when h was gone for 2 years and have to say I was quickly guarded with younger men who seemed to want "a cougar with money" (God, I hope that doesn't sound as weird reading it as it is to write it)

But as the w of a doctor and a L myself, I was surprised at how many blatant users are out there. Young men looking for a mommy figure or a place to live with benefits. Not some great love or even great sex (no, I didn't but I have friends who did) and so, I just don't think reality and time on her own, is bad for your cause. UNLESS YOU KEEP FIGHTING...

[/color]
Call it intuition or whatever you like, but I had a nagging feeling last night that W was with OM. I broke a cardinal rule and did a drive by of her house.
Denver, Denver, Denver....you big goof ball...I'm not even going to comment about ^^^^that... b/c that's how goofy this ^^^ stuff is.


I walked past him and went straight up the stairs to W's bedroom door. It was locked.

Let's hope she doesn't file charges...tell me your name is on the deed???

Fortunately, it was very easy to unlock from the outside. It took me literally 3 seconds.

Ahhhh nooooo..... Sorry YOUR HONOR,- NOT GUILTY B/C DENVER WAS CRAZY...


I realized that I hadn't checked the toilet room. You know that 4' x 4' room where you go to take a cr*p.
I checked the door and it was locked. Again, easy as pie to open. AND there he was... OM sitting on the toilet, underwear down at his ankles in the dark. YOUR HONOR...NOT GUILTY--DENVER had to go to the bathroom...and didn't know it was occupied...


Me: 'wow... what an a**hole you are' Literally...

OM: 'ugh, uh... I'm sorry, I'm sorry' Indeed you are...a sorry OM....

Me: 'Man, you are destroying a marriage, a family... why don't you be a man and do what is right?'

OM: 'I know, I know, I'm sorry. I will leave right now'

Me: 'No, I don't give a sh!t if you leave. But why don't you be a man about all of this? You may think that you are in love with my wife, but she is still my wife. And do you know what you are doing to that little boy in the other room?'

Just to chime in for the fun of it, you DO know this ^^^ doesn't even make sense, right? I mean logically, it's batshit. You want him out, but then you say you don't give a sh44 and want him to "man up"-- whatever that means to guys on the toilet...


OM: 'I know. I will.'

Me: 'You will what? How old are you man, 19? [b] Do what's right.'[/b]

OM: 'I will starting now. I promise.'

I walked away at the point. .. I drove SS to my house. I sent W a text message as soon as we got there.

Nooooooooo


...blah blah blah blah blah back and forth ANGER ANGER ANGER (STOMPING FEET

HERE BELOW are the gems among the rocks...

W: "I told you that I need space and time to figure things out. Don't you understand that?"

translation...I want a way out of this lose lose conversation...but I'm too proud and angry to back down, and have no tools for handling those issues.

Me: "I understand space and time. And W, I'd give you all of the time in the world to figure it out."

W: "Oh, but not if I date other people?!"

Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."

This sounds like a negotiation. Did she KNOW these terms?

W: "So what are you asking me to do?"


Me: "I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."

----------YIKES...SHE JUST ASKED YOU WHAT SHE COULD DO....AND YOU SAID NOTHING, AS YOU ARE "SHUTTING THE DOOR"...(sigh)


W: "I always wanted to be loved by you. And now you want to give that to me and it p!sses me off. After all of the years that I tried, it p!ssed me off that it has taken this to get you to want that."

W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'

SHE'S DARING YOU TO KEEP TREATING HER RIGHT AND PROVE YOU'RE FOR REAL...BUT she's also wanting to cake eat...and abuse you some more.

Me: "No, that would not happen again. I have learned too much"

W: "CAn't you see why I'm afraid?"


WANTS REASSURANCE FROM YOU...HAS SHIFTED THE WHOLE CONVERSATION TO HER TERMS & WHAT SHE WANTS FROM YOU...this used to be what you wanted...right?

Me: "yes. I understand completely why you are afraid."

Me: "I'm not mad. I'm sad. I'm sad that this is the end of our M."

OF COURSE YOU ARE ANGRY...YOUR PRIDE/EGO WAS HURT, AND SO, YOU ARE ENDING THE Marriage... YOU ACTED/TEXTED WITHOUT THINKING. YOU REACTED...bummer.

EVEN THOUGH SHE IS SAYING 'WHAT CAN I DO'? AND 'DON'T YOU SEE WHY I AM AFRAID?"

But in fairness Denver,

you DO have the right to draw your line in the sand.

We all have them and sometimes we don't know where they are until they've been crossed.

We have to look within and shelve the ego and pride and honestly assess whether we can forgive something or even just handle it. (As an example If my h were ever in an A with a sister of mine for instance, I'd drop the m. That's something I could not deal with -unless he had a brain tumor, ya know?)...

So you have to ask yourself, "Can I live with THIS behavior even if it is over? (Is it over??) Is this something I can forgive and forget?" And if the answer is "no", (I don't think this is anti DBing but it might be but here it goes...)

if the answer is no, then maybe we owe it to ourselves AND our spouses, to let them go.

If we know we cannot forgive something, then having a restored happy m, isn't going to ever happen. What's the point then?

Maybe if there are young kids and you don't mind a platonic sham marriage...and some can pull it off.

But otherwise, IF we're going to make them miserable holding it over their head forever or every time we fight throwing it into their faces, and we know this...And we'll always get that sick to the stomach feeling when they're "working late" or get a text...and we won't "work on it"

b/c it's simply something we know we lack in our genes to cope with, THEN YES, it's over...

W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"


She's negotiating/asking you for the terms of the R...

Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."

You better have meant that b/c if you didn't, then you just shut a door she had opened...She was thinking about offering you those terms or at least probing, and she would have had to swallow her pride to agree then and there...but YOU stopped it so she could not.

. I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."

IMO, just my gut, the translation here is -That's you telling her you want an apology and a promise and a new R, and then her not being able to comply...

W: "Okay. Bye."

Me: "Bye"

Obviously, today, You guys lacked good communication skills and that's putting it mildly. Couples need to be able to fight fair or walk away. These types of fights leave wounds that sometimes cannot heal. Was this typical of old behavior?

Too bad you continued to threaten and then she dared you to follow through and you insisted that you WILL folllow through and you explain you "have to" b/c you "have no choice" b/c she is making you do this...

and the thing is Denver, a part of me agrees...meaning, you have painted yourself into a corner with the insistent threat/promise/declaration that it was over now.

I know that I said that I would be filing for a D a couple of times. I regretted making that statement to W before I even posted my update. My other statements of being done were more around removing myself from the equation... refusing to agree to live in an open marriage.

Am I painted into a corner with the D thing? I don't know. I will probably lose credibility if I don't file. I'm not sure what happens here in Colorado if I just file and leave it sitting out there. I'm not sure if the court forces a disposition or not. I need to check. I thought that was a good idea if it will work here.

As for me being serious about removing myself from the equation goes, I am serious about that. I don't want to be a part of my W's life if she is with OM, or any OM for that matter. It is too painful for me, and I think that it allows my W to cake eat. I don't see how it helps me to be around her under these circumstances.

SO my question is two fold.

First, is it over? I mean we know you love her, but seriously it might be over for you if this is something that just crossed the line too much for you.

I honestly don't know at this point. I guess that I need time and space myself to figure that out.

If my h were with a 19 y/o,

Just want to clarify. OM is not 19. He is 34 or 35. That was just a comment that I made.

File, then forget about it, and act as if and I mean ACT AS IF in the zero backsliding ways.
No more fighting, no more R talk or even overt effort...just you pleasantly moving on and staying involved in SS life, big time

He's your way back to her you know...

I know that he is. He is how I got to where I was in February and March. Staying in his life.

So you are saying that I should file, let the process sit (if possible here), and completely remove myself from W's life? But stay in SS's life.

OR you somehow explain why you are not filing but you would have to do that in a way that doesn't make you look weak or indecisive or as if you were simply angry and trying to control her...

which you were/are...

But if you do nothing, then....idk...well, then what?

I don't know. What I do know is that I am removing myself from W's life. I don't know about filing for D... at this time. Explain that I'm not filing? I don't know how I do that and not lose credibility. Plus, I have a feeling that W and I are going to go through a fairly long period of time with no contact.

Can Denver say (about 39 times) he's "done" "moving on" and have her dare him to do it (about 53 times) and him insisting "This is it! She "crossed a line and it's over!" and then do nothing, without losing all his credibility?

Probably not.

Your goal is not saving your marriage "at all costs"...isn't it having a restored marriage with healthy boundaries...?

Yes. And I don't see any other way to get there than to go through this. Being around for W, helping her with things, taking her to do fun stuff... it simply wasn't getting me anywhere. She is taking advantage of it. She has the best of both worlds with what I was doing.

Oh, and NO MORE of these furious conversations!! So much anger that even the end comments were almost not worth it...were they?

I don't know. I think that we had to go through that yesterday. Or, at least she did. I don't think that I was 'furious' at all. I think that I stayed pretty calm and refrained from name calling the whole time. Did you see it differently?

I guess she was dishonest with you. But I'm not clear on what you were thinking she was doing all this time...being like you were?

But she wasn't...she wanted to date. She's not the type of woman (with that son), to be able to be alone for any real amount of time. She's the type of woman who needs a man around. A source of affection and fun to give her a break, in the ceaseless demands of son.

That's the part that I think that she was dishonest about. She told me 'I don't want to date anyone right now'. Yes, I hung my hat on that comment. My bad. But IMO, it was a lie to keep me from walking.

Is it b/c the "A" before, was a fait accompli when you found out way back when, whereas now, it's NOW and that's what you cannot abide by?

Correct? I get that.

Yes, it is because it was fait accompli that I was able to move beyond it before. The fact that it is happening NOW, after she and I have spent so much time together over the past 3 months, is why I cannot abide by it. I don't know what else to say. It is destroying me emotionally. I have to remove myself from it.

But healthy boundaries, and pride based punishments often have a fine line between them...So, you have a choice to make.
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1. Can you file and push the pedal to the floor, get it over with & finally so move on with your life?

2. Can you file and then ignore it?

3. Can you do nothing?

4. Can you go back to her, and say "let's start over, from this day forward"?

Your healthy boundary vs. pride based punishment comparison made me think. How do I know if what I am doing is one or the other?

I don't see how option 4 above is possible. I can't stay in the situation as W wants it.

I don't know about 1 or 2 ... 3 seems like you're saying status quo... again, unacceptable. How about option 5... simply remove myself from the equation. Let W have her time, space to do whatever she wants. But move on with my life? Including dating?? I think that this option 5 is what I need to do.

"I just don't think reality and time on her own, is bad for your cause. UNLESS YOU KEEP FIGHTING..."

It is my only course of action right now 25. That's the way that I see it. Am I going to continue to fight? I don't know yet. Yesterday was a serious blow to my will.

"Let's hope she doesn't file charges...tell me your name is on the deed???"

Nope. My name is not on the deed. But I don't think that anything that I did was technically illegal. I was let into the house. I didn't damage a thing. And I didn't touch OM. MAYBE it could be argued that I harassed him. Whatever though. It was worth it.

"Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."

This sounds like a negotiation. Did she KNOW these terms? "

Not in uncertain terms. But I think that she knew how I'd react. She told me that she was talking to OM, that she had had him over for dinner that one time. Did she ever say that she was sleeping with him again or that she was 'dating' him? NO. In fact, she said, 'I don't want to date anyone right now'. I think that she tried to be dishonest in a way that she could argue that she wasn't. JMO I guess.

"Me: "I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."

----------YIKES...SHE JUST ASKED YOU WHAT SHE COULD DO....AND YOU SAID NOTHING, AS YOU ARE "SHUTTING THE DOOR"...(sigh)"

How could I have handled this differently? I didn't want to force her to do anything that she didn't want to do. I was not trying to control her. I know that it has been perceived that way by posters here and W, but that was not what I was doing. I was simply trying to get information that I deserved so that I could make an informed decision on how I want to proceed.

So when she said this, if I had responded, I will continue with this as long as you don't see OM, it would have been asking her to do something that she apparently isn't ready to do.

She has to make that choice on her own. And the only way that I see that she will do that is if and when she puts her face in her hands and says, 'what have I done'.

"W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'

SHE'S DARING YOU TO KEEP TREATING HER RIGHT AND PROVE YOU'RE FOR REAL...BUT she's also wanting to cake eat...and abuse you some more."

Right. Thus, the dilemma. I'd love to be in her life and for her to give me the opportunity to continue to show her that I am for real. BUT, I'm not willing to let her to abuse me... at least not in this way.

I told her yesterday, something that I think that I neglected to include in my update... "even with everything that I did wrong in our marriage W, I deserve to be treated better than this".

And I believe that.

"OF COURSE YOU ARE ANGRY...YOUR PRIDE/EGO WAS HURT, AND SO, YOU ARE ENDING THE Marriage... YOU ACTED/TEXTED WITHOUT THINKING. YOU REACTED...bummer.

EVEN THOUGH SHE IS SAYING 'WHAT CAN I DO'? AND 'DON'T YOU SEE WHY I AM AFRAID?""

Was I angry? Sure. But I didn't want W to know that. Did act without thinking and react? Yes, I did. And in hindsight, that is the one thing that I do regret about yesterday.

"W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"

She's negotiating/asking you for the terms of the R...

Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."

You better have meant that b/c if you didn't, then you just shut a door she had opened...She was thinking about offering you those terms or at least probing, and she would have had to swallow her pride to agree then and there...but YOU stopped it so she could not."

You think 25? Maybe she was thinking about it. But did I really close the door to that completely? Is that how it comes across? I did tell her that if she did come to me and said no OM's that I would have something to think about. It seemed to me that I left the door open for her to come to me with that proposition.

Would I do it? I don't know. Like I said, I'd have to think about it now.

"I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."

IMO, just my gut, the translation here is -That's you telling her you want an apology and a promise and a new R, and then her not being able to comply..."

While your translation of what I was saying there is wrong, that is what I would like from her. I'm not sure that it would fix this, but it would be a start. But you're right, she can't comply with that right now. She needs to come to that on her own. I can't help her. But I can't be around her while she figures it out either.

Thanks 25 for your thoughtfulness, advice, and time... as always!! I appreciate it more than I can tell you.

Denver