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>>"Wack, meet O."<<

Hard to tell what makes STBX spin as she does. I do think there is definitely something amiss for her to leave a man like you -- Handsome, incredibly intelligent, athletic, loyal & a great father.

All in all, it smacks of her attempting to regain control back in the R. You're wise to keep it on your terms & communicate accordingly, although it does appear to be a little easier on you when you ignore the bait. Easier said than done, when, as you say, there's "collateral damage."


>> "I just think you can't get over the fact that I'm with lots of other men now and that I just love slutting around."<<

Even though that's just blow'n smoke, it's just plain mean.


Best,

Sunny


Date of separation 4/23/07

DB under Warm&Sunny 4/07

married 9 yrs

sons 6yr & 17yr
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"I just think you can't get over the fact that I'm with lots of other men now and that I just love slutting around. Well no one tells me what to do -- I do what I want." - Mrs.STBXSP

That's just mean, and if true, it's an example of a character disorder.


"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.
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"I just think you can't get over the fact that I'm with lots of other men now and that I just love slutting around. Well no one tells me what to do -- I do what I want."

Thanks to email, she's given you some pretty damning stuff to document! Pair the above with her Mother's Day tirade, and it will be abundantly clear to anyone you show it to (say, a judge) that she does whatever she wants IRREGARDLESS OF THE EFFECT ON THE KIDS.

Priceless.

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Quite a while ago, in my original series of posts, both @Gypsy and @Kettricken hit the nail on the head: She's a 40-something adolescent.

Now @Generosity said some nice things about me (and when really attractive women say nice things about you blush you'd better appreciate it and live up to it), but I clearly (as laid out in excruciating detail in my very first thread a year ago) had no small number of shortcomings that led to the D-cisive moment.

I can certainly say I'm better off as a person now as a result of the journey so far, so in that sense I'm a DB Success. I really do have a sense of myself and my capabilities now that I didn't before.

More importantly, I have more information. STBXMRSSP's done and said a lot of bizarro things, and now I know things about her and about me (I mean, you can't help but learn something when, in the middle of an otherwise ordinary tirade she blurts out "and none of this would have happened if you'd just taken the chance I gave you to get back together with me!" ["Um, what? When? Where? Did I miss it in the middle of the spitting and the slapping and the Signore Schmuckatelling?"])

As these things go, her story has evolved over time, all of which adds information, and more information is always useful (to me). @Gypsy noted above that we both like to fight. I don't like to fight, but I definitely don't like letting her get away with things, and these days I don't fight so much as I end fights. I'm sort of practicing the jeet kune do of divorce-busting.

JKD was Bruce Lee's marital arts innovation -- it was like krav maga before there was krav maga -- street-fighting style, or the style of no style.

BTW, I'm not a martial artist. I've always been interested in how artists (append the modifier of your choice -- musical, dance, etc.) see the world -- what the source of their art is. So though my brother got into martial arts as a result of watching "Enter the Dragon," I was more interested in how Bruce Lee thought about what he did.

Here's what he wrote: Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy...a man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it [I used to think about this when I'd read "that's not true DB'ing" or "MWD says..."] He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound... He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive.

So for the "JKD man" (it was the Sexist '60s, after all), the "true" martial art was just doing what you had to do, with a minimum of energy.

That was my DB mistake for the longest time -- I was putting too much energy into it. I really started to do well (IMO, anyway) when I stopped putting energy into it and just started flowing, Tao-like.

So like Bruce Lee, when she attacks instead of defending against the attack, I just turn the attack against her and let her defeat herself. The other day, in the midst of a lambaste-a-thon, she said (we'd met at the school for parent-teacher conferences), "Well? Are you just going to stand there? Don't you feel anything about what you've done?" [BTW, the current story is that (again) the D is all my fault.]

SP: "Yeah, I feel something. I feel sorry for you. You lied and you cheated, and because you're a liar and cheater, you know how easy it is to deceive someone who trusts you, and so you'll never trust anyone you're with because you'll never be sure he isn't lying and cheating on you. You'll never have a trusting relationship again. How sad."

The air went out of her, and that was it. I'd written that to her, but apparently hearing it from me, in my normal, balanced voice was a real blow. Jeet kune do.

So I'm just deflecting her blows, stepping aside from her attacks, letting her spend the energy while I conserve mine for the fights that matter (i.e., the fight for my fair share of the community asset pie).

But I'm also a lot more serene about STBX. I don't think there's "really" anything wrong with her. What I think -- total speculation -- might be going on is that the cork is off the bottle in a way. She was not -- not in the 20+ years I knew her -- what you'd call a self-reflective person. I don't think she'd ever really given herself, her mind, her desires, etc., much systematic thought at all.

This is something all the information I've acquired from experience of her in the past year has given me and, in a weird way, I'm grateful for it. Knowing it, I know that had I "succeeded" in busting the divorce during '09, I would have been the one who had grown and she would have still been "her" -- which would have simply been a recipe for another D-Day, IMO.

So the cost of an explosion of feelings / emotions / thoughts / experiences in an unreflective person -- mandatory self-reflection, if you will -- might be the kind of collateral damage she's been creating of late. Suddenly she's not who she believed herself to be, the world doesn't seem as tidy as it might have, and, having been so incurious about herself, I suspect she just doesn't have the tools to cope. Now with counseling maybe she's getting there, and for her sake -- and for the sake of Themselves more than anything else -- I sincerely hope she does.

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Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson


So I'm just deflecting her blows, stepping aside from her attacks, letting her spend the energy while I conserve mine for the fights that matter (i.e., the fight for my fair share of the community asset pie).


Methinks that is very wise, SP. cool

Puppy

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Smiley,

Don't know your story at all, I've read only this thread. STBXW seems to be hard set on a path of personal destruction. Her comments to you are filled with pain and self-loathing.

You seem to be doing pretty well with it, and have a good attitude. BUT, this is a bit arrogant: "This is something all the information I've acquired from experience of her in the past year has given me and, in a weird way, I'm grateful for it. Knowing it, I know that had I "succeeded" in busting the divorce during '09, I would have been the one who had grown and she would have still been "her" -- which would have simply been a recipe for another D-Day, IMO."

This is arrogant in that you assume you know her future, her strengths, her wishes, her capabilities when you assume your superiority. Now look, I think even from what I've read here that your assumptions aren't outlandish. But, they are assumptions all the same. The arrogance comes in with your apparent certainty and close-mindedness on the matter. WASs are often OOC. Your STBX certainly seems to be OOC. But NO ONE knows where she will be when she comes back to try to live a life she really wants. (And no, she doesn't want the life she has -- it is pretty apparent that she's hating herself pretty hard about it...) Anyway, WASs often surprise, often make incredible changes. It is because their selves are in such flux that they are all over the place to begin with. The flux sux. Then it stops. Who will she be on the other side. You don't know. She doesn't know.

Why bring this up? You are handling things pretty well. I certainly have no idea if your M can be saved or should be saved. But, what is pretty darn clear about you is this: You are not DONE.

People who are really done would not be having the interactions you are having with your W. Really. You are BOTH still all about each other to a fair degree. So, you aren't DONE, and she doesn't want a D.

My suggestion: drop the arrogance in favor of an open mind.

Maybe sooner or later you will both be in a place in which reconciliation is possible and a great M is possible. Maybe not. Just open your mind to that uncertainty.

I really like your Jeet Kune-Do comments!

And, I strongly agree that alot of DBers expend far too much energy on trying to DB. Personally, I think that really getting DB is detaching, understanding how detaching is necessary for intimacy, developing compassion, standing on your own two feet, dropping the drama, acceptance, and moving forward.

Keep up the Jeet Kune-Do. Martial Arts Detachment, lol, get MAD. wink And, find that open mind.


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Let me put it this way -- by virtue of my experience with STBX, the only reason she's had to even start therapy -- which only started 3 months ago -- was the fact that she was, by her own account, "totally lost."

Had she "moved back in" 6 months ago, presumably she wouldn't have been "totally lost" 3 months later (i.e., at the time she started counseling).

So it seems to me a reasonable conclusion that, in probabilistic terms, the M would have been every bit as much in jeopardy as it (apparently) was when she pulled the trigger. Frankly, I think she was looking for a time-out and then, once she recalibrated, I have every reason to believe she would have been right back on the OM Trail.

Maybe that's arrogant. I don't know. What I do know is she hasn't given me a single reason to believe that she's learned anything, discovered anything, changed anything, since the day she moved out. And I don't have time to go to that rodeo again.

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Whoooaaaa.... chill for a minute.

I think you misunderstood me.

I mean to suggest that it would be good to have an open mind NOW. That is all. You aren't DONE. She doesn't want a D. The nail is not yet in the coffin. So, keep an open mind. That is all.

I didn't mean to say anything about how you handled things in the past. To me, it sounds like you've done pretty well, but I don't know your story. In any case, I certainly don't think that taking a crazy woman back into your house 6 months ago would have been a good idea for either of you. Indeed, it sounds quite the opposite. Given her behavior, your assessment that you would have been merely a timeout from her wayward ways looks spot on.

And, I didn't mean to say anything about the timeline for a D. I don't think you should stop your D process, which you seem to be handling capably, the more you leave it to the Ls, the better. It is business. Period. She is NOT now doing the things that she would need to do to make reconciliation possible. Quite the contrary I'd say.

But, again. You aren't DONE. Ask anyone who was really at peace with D, who is emotionally D, who is truly done with their marriage. You aren't there, not even close. Nor is your W. Nor does she want a D. So, keep an open mind. Don't paint yourself into a corner. That is all.

For instance, the next time she says that the D is your fault, say something like: "No, you chose to end our monogomous committed R. If you want to choose to try to repair it, I might be willing to consider that request, but only if XYZ." XYZ, of course, being very firm, clear boundaries. Notice this is not even a commitment to trying. All it says is that you might be open to the idea if certain things happened. It keeps your corners unpainted and your mind open. That's all.

Do I think you "should" reconcile? Do I think there is a good chance W will come around? Do I think that if she did your M could be a happy, healthy, vibrant, passionate M? I DUNNO. I HAVE NO CLUE. I DON'T EVEN HAVE ANY OPINION. I simply don't know enough of your story.

All I know is: Neither of you are done. Of that, I have no doubt. When neither of you are done, keeping an open mind and keeping your options open is a good path to choose.

Keeping an open mind, though, doesn't require not taking care of yourself or not moving forward. Just don't be so darn sure that you can predict the future with respect to who W will be and what choices she will make so perfectly, lol.


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And I forgot to mention in my reply to your reply that I chose the word "arrogant" deliberately. My IC long ago used it with me when I was acting so very certain about XH's choices/wishes/future. I didn't like it when she used that term. Not one bit, lol.

But, she was right. And as that sunk in, it became very valuable to me. Too often, we are arrogant about how we think we know others, their thoughts, feelings, their choices, what will be good for them, blah blah blah. It is simple arrogance to think we know someone that well. It gets in the way of really knowing them at all. It gets in the way of being a good friend or partner. It gets in the way even of making our own choices properly, because too often we make choices based on our own arrogant beliefs about the inaccessible mental lives of others. Such beliefs are generally pretty darn error ridden.

And, DBers in particular, seem extremely prone to such arrogance. Even when they are blindsided, which most of us were, because we didn't know the WAS, DBers STILL continue to assume all kinds of things about the WAS's mind, heart, beliefs, dreams, choices, capabilities, etc.... You'd think the bomb would have been big enough to shake up that applecart of arrogant beliefs. But, no, it seems not. If anything, the LBS/WAS talk around here seems to strengthen that arrogance. The LBSs are holyfied, the WASs demonized, disrespected, dismissed... Thus, the arrogance becomes magnified.

Losing the arrogance is a HUGE step toward a better life and being a better partner capable of a much better kind of intimacy. Losing the arrogance is a huge part of detaching (along with finding genuine compassion.) Losing the arrogance is a necessary part of being able to find true forgiveness. Losing the arrogance makes our future much, much brighter in very many ways.

To be clear, I say all the above to explain my word choice, not because I think you are particularly arrogant, lol. From what I can see, you seem to be bypassing much of the overblown arrogance DB effect.

Overall, you seem to be doing very well in a very difficult situation. My suggestion is really pretty minor: don't presume to know the future when it comes to who W will be, keep an open mind.

Maybe this will help... You can shut the door on your M and hold your back against the door to keep in from opening. You can hold the back against the door by feeling certain about all kinds of horrible things about W and her future, things about which you can't really be certain at all. Or, you can close the door on your M, lock it securely with a key that represents respecting your boundaries, move forward with D, but allow in your own mind that W might turn out to have a copy of the key or not. You simply don't know right now.


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P.S. I think your W must have been in incredible, soul-crushing pain to set herself on the path she is now on. It's very sad to see. I wonder why she was in such great pain to become someone that she hates so much... So much of her apparent lashing out at you is no more than self-flagellation. I hurt for you both.


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