WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 5

[MrBond]

In the case of how to show compassion from the conversation last night. The only thing I think you could have done is listened to her a little more. But you are only human and the feelings and frustrations have been building in you for awhile from your W's mixed signals. Every now and then those emotions come out and last night they did. What's done is done. Just when the opportunity presents itself, go back to listening a little more to her.

I disagree with AN when he says that you hadn't seen things through her eyes. Through all the weeks of therapy and talks and interactions, I say that you were more than understanding to where she's coming from. However, her problem is the past. And we can't change that. There's only so much validating you can do before it gets to the point where you find out that this person needs to stop blaming me for all of their problems and move on.

This is classic MLC script.

I always find it interesting how the next morning the two of you act as if there was nothing wrong. I would maybe ask her how she's doing and apologize for anything inappropriate you might have said last night. Then see if she does also. If she doesn't, then she'll have moved on in her head and might be thinking that it still is all your fault.

[AnotherNightmare]

I disagree with AN when he says that you hadn't seen things through her eyes. Through all the weeks of therapy and talks and interactions, I say that you were more than understanding to where she's coming from.

Stuck,

I believe that CIPA has been trying to understand her a little better than before. What I read in his posts over and over again though is that he always has his own agenda and puts that first when he talks to her. So when she says she cannot get over the past, he ends up arguing with her how bad a D would be for the kids.

I want to give you another example (and I apologize in advance for being very blunt, but I really have no idea how I can be less drastic to get through to CIPA). I have read a few posts of CIPA on other people's threads. They usually start with a sentence like "I understand your situation...", and then he rattles on with his own situation. If he does the same thing to his W, of course, she does not feel understood and respected.

The only way to make her feel safe, to take away her fear is to approach her without an agenda, like a true friend who listens, validates her feelings and offers help. How about something like "I understand you feel hurt about what I have done. I wish I would not have done all these things. How can I help you feel more comfortable?" And then do whatever she is asking for. You can even hug her lightly or hold her hand, once you have truly connected with each other. But something like "I understand you are hurt. But the victims of a D will be the kids." for sure turns her off. I am exaggerating, but that is how I sense those conversations are going.

As long as CIPA has those thoughts like "I do not want a divorce. She destroys our family. I love her, so why can't she get over the past hurt?", he will always be in attack mode when he talks to her. When he is in attack mode, showing compassion is impossible.

However, her problem is the past. And we can't change that.

I am not really sure her problem is the past. Her problem is that she does not see a future with CIPA, because he keeps hurting her, he keeps scratching those old wounds so they start bleeding again and cannot heal. When they talk, CIPA's motivation is not to understand her point of view fully and accept it as her point of view, but to convince her to stay, to stop the D, to stay with the family. I hear that over and over again in his posts, and I just cannot imagine that he turns around 180 degrees when he talks to his W. And I am convinced that his W can sense his motivation better than anything else (an animal can sense your motivation when you walk towards it). Whenever she senses his motivation is own agenda, her defenses are up and she tells the story about the past.

I do not want to turn this into an argument. That is just what I am reading in his posts.

AN

[confusedinpa]

I guess the problem is that she wouldn't say anything other than the 2 to 4 word questions/statements. That was only after I would would ask what she was thinking or feeling

I will try the appology though.

[MrBond]

AN,
No problems here. To me it just seemed that his saying that he doesn't want the D, etc. is his belief which he doesn't tell or tries not to show outwardly, but lets it out here because this is like our sanctuary.

Sure we all make mistakes in the beginning like arguing, trying to reason with spouse, etc. and he like everyone else here has done his fair share. But I think in the past month especially, there was a real turnaround. The switch finally came on as it does with all of us.

I'm glad to hear that your sitch is turning out great, but let's be honest, it's because your W WANTED to work on it after all. That's the key. My W has said from day one that she wants out and still maintains that even though all her actions would suggest otherwise. And I've been at this for over a year. She says she doesn't want to try. Your W was willing to give it a shot, no matter how small an effort it was, it was still an effort.

Most of the other WAWs on this board really don't want to try and will come up with every excuse in the book to fight trying. Some people even had their LBS arrested! That's crazy.

You my friend are extremely blessed and the majority of us here would give anything to be in your shoes. And it all started because your W made the choice to try.

[AnotherNightmare]

Stuck,

I agree with you that some WAW will never look back. You can probably DB until your head starts spinning and it will not save your M.

OTOH, I think Mrs. CIPA is different. A lot of the things she said at the beginning led me to believe that she was and probably still is on the fence. If I look back to how I made progress:

- I completely stopped talking about my plans, my needs, and my wishes
- I made every conversation I had with her 100% about her
- I stated once, maybe twice that I wanted to save the M
- I stated my boundaries once (maybe twice)
- I admit to a little bit of snooping - it was almost accidentally - when I found she was reading books about "Emotional abuse". I started reading about it, too, and brought it up myself to her and that I wanted to work on it. I actually asked her to get me books from the library (except for the DB book).
- Of course, Retro had a huge impact on me and how I treated her. It was a real eye-opener for me. I am still not sure if it turned her around. Or rather I believe she had a lot of doubts before Retro that walking away was the right solution for her. If she had been one of those never-look-back-WAW, she probably would not have gone.

Every time I exerted only a little bit of pressure (and I still have to be extremely careful even now), we had a setback. Every time I started arguing or lecturing, became defensive, talked about my feelings, my needs, my point of view, we had a setback. It only took very little to turn her off. Only after I started doing the exercises described in "Love without Hurt", it became more automatic for me to be compassionate. I think at this point it would be very difficult for my W to bait me into an argument. When she tries (and she probably does that unconsciously), I immediately try to connect with her by putting my arm around her shoulder, holding her hand or simply asking her what I can do for her (e.g. "Wait! Would you like a coffee? Let's sit down"). We have been argument-free for close to 3 weeks now.

Since I know how hard it is from my own experience, I believe that CIPA is simply not there yet. I agree that he has come a long way from the anxiety and needyness he showed at the very beginning. However, he needs to keep working on that. I still sense a lot of anxiety about her moving out. Anxiety clouds your mind and view when you try to understand what your S says, feels and wants.

Again, I am not saying CIPA has not made improvements, but he has not really made progress. So something about his strategy needs to change.

AN

[MrBond]

yeah we all thought that she was on the fence until she would hit with something out of left field that showed that she was still proceeding with the D without telling CIPA the full extent of her plans.

I agree that taking the focus off the R and onto her needs has helped CIPA, however she keeps bringing up the past which he has validated and apologized for over and over. She has even mentioned that she has seen the changes but doesn't trust them. CIPA has already past the point of telling her his changes and just doing them. She has to get over that part of the trust.

However if there's one thing about a person deep in MLC is that they are strictly thinking about themselves and no amount of talking to them or understanding will get them to change their mind unless they want to. That's why in your case, you were blessed to have a W that opened the door a little. But sometimes that's all it takes.

I have done all the things you have as well as others and that hasn't changed my W's mind at all. But we accept the reality of the sitch and move on.

I do believe there's hope in CIPA's sitch too. It's just going to take a little more tweaking of his approach to match his sitch so that it is all about her.

[working on me]

Wow, stuck and An!

You both are like jedi masters!

Keep checking in on my sitch if you can.

[confusedinpa]

I guess the problem is that she wouldn't say anything other than the 2 to 4 word questions/statements. That was only after I would would ask what she was thinking or feeling

I will try the appology though.

[AnotherNightmare]

yeah we all thought that she was on the fence until she would hit with something out of left field that showed that she was still proceeding with the D without telling CIPA the full extent of her plans.

Do you mean the fact that she was looking for an apartment and is now moving out?

I agree that taking the focus off the R and onto her needs has helped CIPA, however she keeps bringing up the past which he has validated and apologized for over and over.

This is where I think he could still improve a lot. It is, of course, based on what I read here. In his posts, there is still a lot of focus on her, what she does, what she thinks, what she feels. Too much R talk between the two of them still. There is still more attachment than detachment.

[MrBond]

CIPA,

has she been contacting you today?