WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 5

[confusedinpa]

Too broad. Number one is a given. That's what we all want. Number two is just the results that we want from number one.

A boundary is like:
I will not remain in a M when there is OM involved.
I will not be talked down to. We will discuss things as equals.
Our children will remain in the home to maintain a consistent level of stability.

Stuff like that. They are a list of things you will or will not tolerate as you're going through this. Concrete things.

On the flip side, you should have your list of concrete goals like:
She will talk to me with more respect.
She will hug me first and initiate ML.
She will ask me how my day is.

Both lists are very important when DBing. It gives you focus and it gives you a picture in your mind of what your M should be like.

I guess this is where the other conundrum lies.

Aside from the physical, she is treating me and talking with me exactly like we were happily married.

The gut check is when we start talking about matters related to the divorce. That's when she gets upset and tries to start a fight or get me mad or makes demands. I've stopped getting pulled into that trap and have just flipping things back at her. I'm not perfect at it, but getting better (unfortunately I've been getting a lot of practice)

Right now, she asks me how my day went, she usually initiates some contact during the day (she didn't today, it's getting me anxious as I suspect that she's probably signing a lease today, but I knew that day is coming), she will ask me if I need a drink, she will ask what I want for dinner, etc.

I guess the boundaries could be:

1 - When she talks to me about matters related to the divorce, she will treat me with respect - no yelling, threats, talk down to, demanded upon, etc.
2 - The children will stay in the family home to provide stability.
3 - If we get divorced, we will be civil, but we will not be friends
4 - If she dates/sleeps with someone while we are physically separated, it is over, we will not be friends and I will fight for everything in the divorce

How does that sound?

[MrBond]

Sounds good. Definitely keep numbers 1 and 2 upfront. The other two you can do if it comes up.

All her actions has shown that she's the one driving the roller coaster and taking you along with her. Let her wallow in her own confusion. You notice it's okay if she brings up D matters, but when you do, she gets hostile. It's all the part of the D not following HER plans. Get her to see the negatives in herself rather than the M.

With an MLC person that's the hardest part because they don't see the problem as being themselves. But there are "ah ha" moments that hopefully you or the C can bring out of her.

[davidswife]

#4 sounds controlling. Do you really think you can build a wall high enough to keep her from sleeping with someone else? Do you want to? Do you want to be a husband or a warden?

[confusedinpa]

It was a really tough counseling session

It started as we walked into the resturant for dinner she said that she was going to sign a lease for an apt this week and wanted to know what day I can pick up the kids so she can do that. I didn't answer.

During dinner I went into how divorce is a permanant solution for a temporary problem and how I still believe the marriage can work. She said that she has no feelings for me as she didn't miss me at all this weekend. She said that she will move in April. I asked her to wait till the school year is over and she said she waited long enough. Very selfish. She did commit to continuing counseling while we were separated.

During counseling I still used my intro. My counselor went along and probed how she felt and why didn't she communicate right away. Then she probed what I was thinking and felt when I communicated about my CT trip. It was a tough discussion as what I intended to be a loving act of giving her space was delivered/recieved as a "controlling" act just like I had done before.

Then we got into what can be done differently so she would have seen it as a loving act. She said if I presented it as an opportunity and then discussed it. The strategy of shocking her backfired as I was afraid she would fight me taking the kids away for the weekend. Instead as she was resentful the whole weekend she didn't miss me at all. Arghhh!

We then talked about how I told her that I loved her enough that I'm not going to stand in her way of doing what she wanted. I didn't agree nor was I going to help either. That's where we talked about her planning on moving in April. I also asked how that helps us establish the connections or help the marriage

The we talked about how to have a loving/happy marriage. It came down to communication - freely expressing the thoughts and feelings, including the thought process.
I actually put it to use when we got home as we had to plan wrapping my 3 year old's B'day presents (he turns 3 tomorrow). We talked about when to do it and where and how. She said it was a good conversation/example of a good conversation. I will have to remember that one

Before she went up to bed, I gave her a hug. I said that I really don't want her to go but understand that she needs to. I went to break away from the hug but she held on. It was the longest hug we had for a while.

In retrospec I should have said that I don't want her to go but know this is what she wants to do. I see what I said was enabling. I have to pay attention to that one.

She did hint around to figure out how to move some furniture. I didn't offer any help/suggestions - not that dumb

Tough session. I still feel good with myself and know I'm doing the best I can. Either way I will be ok

[confusedinpa]

I know some people who say a separation will help. I still don't see how it does in my situation

Right now my wife says she doesn't miss me when I was gone with the boys the past weekend (nor did she the last time I was traveling for business for a week)

If she doesn't miss me, then how does that help?

How do I continue to show her how I've changed? Or Db'ing?

I'm not emotionally down. Just confused to what's the next step in this journey.

[MrBond]

It takes a separation of at least a month. And that is no or as little contact as possible.

"She said if I presented it as an opportunity and then discussed it."

She continues to put the blame on you for her path and it's sad that she's not taking any personal responsibility. To me, you asked her and that was that and you told her it was time you needed to think and time to give her to think. It's pretty concrete to me and if she was hurt, then she should have spoken up. How are you supposed to learn what "hurts" her if she doesn't tell you? I ran into the same thing with my W.

Is there any reason why you're still going to attend C? It continues to sound like she's doing it just for you.

[Astimegoeson]

Right now my wife says she doesn't miss me when I was gone with the boys the past weekend (nor did she the last time I was traveling for business for a week)

If she doesn't miss me, then how does that help?

How do I continue to show her how I've changed?

'Miss' might be the wrong reaction to hope for. You 'miss' somebody that has died or moved so far away that your chances of visiting them only come every few years.

You have kids together, your going to see each other often. She's not going to 'miss' you in the sense your looking for.

Your opportunity comes when you personally break out of that married identity you've been broadcasting to the world for so long. I can see it in your post. Your so predictable, it's boring. Don't take this personal, but consider you loose part of yourself when your married. It's that part she found attractive in the first place and that's the part she can 'miss' if she could see it again.

Does that make sense to you? It took me a while to rediscover it. The ex now missis it. She's the pursuer now, but it's to late for her in my case. Many on here can probably tell you the same thing. There are some who've successfully attracted their spouses/ex spouses back only to find that dbing was more beneficial to them personally than their marriage. I don't think the authors had that concept in mind from the beginning, but it's definitely a by-product. If you can understand this concept early on, you have a good chance at success.

[confusedinpa]

We had talked about the "miss" part last nite.

She said she missed the boys but didn't miss me.

She explained the feeling as how she is excited to see a friend she hasn't seen in a while. One would get excited about hearing about what's happened as well as the anticipation of spending time together.

So maybe "miss" is a bad word for it, to me it sounds like it's more looking forward to enjoying spending time with someone. It sounds like right now she doesn't enjoy spending time/seeing me. She said that when she is around me and in the house, she just sees the negativity.

I guess that's how a physical separation can help as it gets her away from having all the negativity in front of her. We had talked about that during dinner as well.

She also said that she's still planning on wearing her ring (not the real one that we never resized because I kept putting it off, but the "fake" one that she bought herself), and she's planning on using the time to think, read, start her own therapy and even take some classes (cooking, aromatherapy) that she felt that she couldn't when she was with me. She said she wasn't planning on changing her "lifestyle". She explained that meaning that she's not planning on turning her life into a wild party/happy hour.

We do have to still come up with a custody agreement. I had told her that it's important for the kids to have both parents in their lives. I had also told her that the stability for the kids is also important so that they should stay in their family home as much as possible. I'm going to propose the reverse of the typical custody arrangement for her. Where I will keep the kids most of the time, but she can visit every other weekend. I know that won't go well though - it didn't the last time I brought it up.

She is really expecting 50/50. I suspect that the best I can hope for is to have the kids in the family home Mon-Thurs nite so that their school week is stable and stay with her Fri-Sun nite. So that would be 57/43. I negotiate multi-million $ business contracts in my job but no other negotiations have been so important with such high stakes.

[Kenn]

Astimegoeson,

Wow, that was well put. There is so much out there that can be gathered watching others threads.

confusedinpa,

She may say she doesn't want to party but be prepared. She will experience a new found freedom and there will be a short duration of her going out with the free time without responsibilites. You will need to ignore it like others on this site advise. I'm not even the one that wanted my seperation and yet I enjoyed that intial burst of freedom. Just thought I'd share.

[confusedinpa]

Your opportunity comes when you personally break out of that married identity you've been broadcasting to the world for so long. I can see it in your post. Your so predictable, it's boring. Don't take this personal, but consider you loose part of yourself when your married. It's that part she found attractive in the first place and that's the part she can 'miss' if she could see it again.

Does that make sense to you? It took me a while to rediscover it. The ex now missis it. She's the pursuer now, but it's to late for her in my case. Many on here can probably tell you the same thing. There are some who've successfully attracted their spouses/ex spouses back only to find that dbing was more beneficial to them personally than their marriage. I don't think the authors had that concept in mind from the beginning, but it's definitely a by-product. If you can understand this concept early on, you have a good chance at success.
[/quote]

I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work out with you ex in you situation, but it sounded like you really made yourself fuller through the experience.

I do agree that I lost part of myself after we got married. During my DB process, as well as the fact that I got snapped out of my depression by her filing for divorce, I came to the realization that I became someone that no one would want to be with during the last several years. The irony was that at work, we used a consultant that I thought was great but everyone who worked with him hated, but since my awakening, I saw everything that my wife complained/resented about in the consultant. He is also divorced.

I know I've changed for the better. My wife told me how proud she was of me. My oldest son recognizes and tell me how he never wants me to go back to my "old ways". My buddy and his wife in CT who probably knows me better than anyone else (sad since that's suppose to be my wife that knows me best) says that they see how I've evolved into such a full person.

Problem is my wife is still unable to see past the hurt/anger that she's holding onto.

I'm disappointed/sad that it's gotten to this point. Not for myself but for my boys and my wife. It feels like we have taken it to this point in our lives where things are suppose to get easier. Unfortunately, we can't continue as a family past this point.

I hope the separation really can help