WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 5

[confusedinpa]

Had a very good conversation with my coach. It's the last session of the 3 I paid for. I see there are going to be at least one more tough moment ahead, that's her moving out so I may sign up for another session later. I did ask her what to do if she did move out and she said just focus my attention/energy the kids and go dark with my wife. Little concilation, but oh well, whatever.

I did spend time getting her caught up over the last 2 weeks. I'm going to continue working/tweaking my 180 but generally most of the discussion was around getting me ready for the counseling session tonite.

She did offer that if my wife brings up leaving again, I should liken it to suicide. It is a very permanant solution to a temporary problem. The time that we are going through is a temporary problem. That's why it's called working on a marriage (or something like that, I'm going to have to mull that one over some more)

Another thing that she threw out there was the next time my wife says that she needs to be true to her feelings and she doesn't feel that she can love me like a wife should. I should throw up the notion that feelings can't drive decisions as feelings come and go. Intelect is what needs to drive the decision. All a divorce/seperations will do is trade a new set of problems for the old ones, but you will still have the feelings. Again, I'm going to have to mull over this one.

Anyway, the approach/theme I'm going to take for the counseling session tonite is:

I feel like we've made some progress in our relationship as we are beginning to feel more comfortable with talking/sharing our feelings/thoughts. One of the things that we had talked about is how I had thought it was my wife that made me happy. Now I understand that I am the only one that makes me happy. She made me feel loved.

Something else that I understand now is that marriage doesn't make you happy either. All marriage does is make you married. It is up to each of us to figure out how to be happy in a marriage. Neither my wife and I have ever seen it work in our families (both of our parents are divorced). I had read 87% of marriages where both sets of parents are divorced, fail. If it's only one set, it is 79%. It seems that a divorce really shatters children's confidence in relationships.

We've had a very comfortable/good marriage, but I've been spending a lot of time trying to think about what would make the marriage more loving and to make it feel more happy. Can you (the counselor) help with that? (The risk her is my wife may jump in to say that's not what she wants, but it is suppose to be marriage counseling, not divorce counseling).

If it gets down a path that doesn't seem to help, I was going to use the following:

My wife had told me that she had needed space to think a few weeks ago. She had brought it up again a couple of weeks ago. That was why I had set up my weekend trip to CT. I had told her that I would lover for her to come. Afterwards, I found out she felt unloved as she didn't feel like I wanted to invite her. What did she want me to do so she felt loved? I just want to understand so I can give her what she wants.

I'll fine tune this a few more times before the session, but I think this is how I'm going to go. It talks about some positive, but starts working more towards actions to improve.

[confusedinpa]

When you kiss and hug in the morning, are you initiating it or are you still ignoring her and letting her come to you? If you are initiating, you've got to stop it. It's like an addiction where you're getting a "fix" from her. Again it shows your neediness.

This is the conundrum I have struggled with. One of the core issues my wife had brought up was that in the past she felt unloved as I didn't hug/kiss/touch her enough. My 180 was to do more of that. I've backed it off to non-sexual touches so I can stay consistent with my 180, but not be sexually pursuing. Occasionally she'll initiate the hug (usually because she needs her back cracked), but usually I walk up to her. If she is evasive, I don't pursue, I just hug my kids. If she engages (i.e. steps/turns towards me) then I hug her. For the kiss on the check, I lean in until I'm about an inch away. Then she will lean over.

I always find it odd that our WAWs continually say things about how they know what a M should be like and they know it's not supposed to be like this, or they don't give us the love that a W should. We are the ones who actually study and read up on what M should really be and they just "think" they do. Very sad.

I agree 100%. That's part of the theme I'm driving in our counseling session tonite. Our consellor had agreed that we had a good comfortable marriage that would have been fine for many other couples, but it seems like my wife is looking for one that is more passionate. So I've tweaked it to loving and happy as passion in a relationship is only the first 2 years and I know that it will never come back with that intensity.

Also, you've got to think positive again. You mention that "it was going to happen". Who says? When you were dating her, you didn't know if you had a shot at her or not, but you stayed positive and got her. That's how you have to see things again. Stay positive so that you don't reflect any negative feelings.

You are right about positivity. I had a really bad morning as I snuck a peak in my wife's craftroom closet this morning as she was taking a shower. She had told me she was shopping for stuff for when she would move. It was a shock when I saw it all. Very sad.

I'm better now and ready to keep trying.

[MrBond]

I would suggest just stop doing the physical touching altogether. From what you described it is you initiating it and she's just placating you by reacting to it. You've got to get to the point where she's the one initiating it.

Forget about the 180s for a bit. It comes down to what works and what doesn't work and obviously all the stuff you've been doing hasn't had any affect on her. You've got to do something that will rock her world to shake her out of her funk. Which is why I suggested you give her moving out talk before you left. However, because you told her that she could come with you, that blew that deal. You're easing her into her position too nicely.

Or to put it another way. In terms of what you're doing, "how's that working for you"?

[confusedinpa]

Just some more tweaking of my counseling "intro"

I feel like we've made some progress in our relationship as we are beginning to feel more comfortable with talking/sharing our feelings/thoughts. One of the things that we had talked about is how I had thought it was my wife that made me happy. I understand now that my wife doesn't make me happy.

Something else that I understand now is that marriage doesn't make you happy either. All marriage does is make you married. It is up to us to figure out how each of us will be happy in a marriage. Neither my wife and I have ever seen it work in our families (both of our parents are divorced). I had read 87% of marriages where both are children of divorced, fail. If only one is a child of divorce, it is 79%. It seems that a divorce really shatters a child's confidence in relationships.

Now we've had a very comfortable/good marriage, but I've been spending a lot of time trying to think about what would make the marriage more loving and to make it feel more happy. How can we do that? (The risk her is my wife may jump in to say that's not what she wants, but it is suppose to be marriage counseling, not divorce counseling).

If it gets down a path that doesn't seem to help, I was going to use the following:

Here's an example where I was trying to do something loving for my wife. She had told me that she had needed space to think a few weeks ago. She had brought it up again a couple of weeks ago. That was why I had set up my weekend trip to CT. I had told her that I would love for her to come. Afterwards, I found out she felt unloved as she didn't feel like I invited her. What did she want me to do so she felt loved? I just want to understand so I can give her what she wants.

[confusedinpa]

In terms of what you're doing, "how's that working for you"?

Here is my conundrum, before she hit me with the bomb, I was in Dark mode (100% emotionally detached) because of my depression.

She has said that she doesn't believe my changes are real. I did say that she believed in them enough to have her feelings change to the point that she felt we were friends. Unfortunately, she doesn't feel that she can love me as a wife should.

So it worked for me that before she said that she couldn't stand the site of me. So that is very minor progress.

How do I get the next step without destroying any of her confidence in my changes?

[MrBond]

You're not really changing your changes, you're actually just giving her what she wants. The thing is that if you read through your posts, when she calls the shots based on her timeline, she's fine and happy. But when you assert something, she changes it to how YOU really haven't changed, YOU are being selfish, etc.

See she blames you when it's convenient When she starts feeling uncomfortable.

What you want to do is remain compassionate and understanding, but also do what YOU think is right for YOU. She keeps saying that she wants to do what's right for you, well all you're doing is what is right for you. She can't say what's best for you anymore than you can for her.

Establish a boundary. That's all there is to it. No woman respects a doormat. And you can't expect to get a respectful response from her until she starts treating you with respect.

Maybe you can bring that up in C about how she has been treating you without respect. She'll say all the stuff about how she's been "allowing" you to ML to her, be friends with her, etc. But she's going to have to learn that that's not "respecting" you. That's her placating you because she feel sorry for what she's doing.

Let me put it to you this way. When my W and I separated, I didn't initiate any physical contact at all to see what she would do. Which of course was nothing. So we didn't even hug for a good 7 months not even at Christmas, New Years and special occassions. Then when she came back and I brought that to her attention, she was surprised at how cold and distant she had become. Then she understood it was her that was causing her negative feelings and not me.

You've got to turn it back around so it's focusing on her problems and not the M.

[confusedinpa]

What you want to do is remain compassionate and understanding, but also do what YOU think is right for YOU. She keeps saying that she wants to do what's right for you, well all you're doing is what is right for you. She can't say what's best for you anymore than you can for her.

Establish a boundary. That's all there is to it. No woman respects a doormat. And you can't expect to get a respectful response from her until she starts treating you with respect.

Maybe you can bring that up in C about how she has been treating you without respect. She'll say all the stuff about how she's been "allowing" you to ML to her, be friends with her, etc. But she's going to have to learn that that's not "respecting" you. That's her placating you because she feel sorry for what she's doing.

Guess I'm really struggling with this boundary thing and the respect thing then.

From my perspective, there are two right things for me, although they, in my mind, are tightly related:

1. Work on trying to save the marriage.
2. Make decisions for what's best for the kids, not because it's what we want for ourselves. That means stability.

Are those boundaries or are they too broad?

[MrBond]

Too broad. Number one is a given. That's what we all want. Number two is just the results that we want from number one.

A boundary is like:
I will not remain in a M when there is OM involved.
I will not be talked down to. We will discuss things as equals.
Our children will remain in the home to maintain a consistent level of stability.

Stuff like that. They are a list of things you will or will not tolerate as you're going through this. Concrete things.

On the flip side, you should have your list of concrete goals like:
She will talk to me with more respect.
She will hug me first and initiate ML.
She will ask me how my day is.

Both lists are very important when DBing. It gives you focus and it gives you a picture in your mind of what your M should be like.

[confusedinpa]

Another last tweak - I would be interested in thoughts/comments if anyone has any:

I feel like we've made some progress in our relationship as we are beginning to feel more comfortable with talking/sharing our feelings/thoughts. One of the things that we had talked about is how I had thought it was my wife that made me happy. I understand now that my wife doesn't make me happy.

Something else that I understand now is that marriage doesn't make you happy either. All marriage does is make you married. It is up to us to figure out how each of us will be happy in a marriage. As both of us are children of divorce, neither my wife and I have ever seen that in our families. I had read 87% of marriages where both are children of divorced, fail. If only one is a child of divorce, it is 79%. It seems that a divorce really shatters a child's confidence in relationships.

Now we've had a very comfortable/good marriage, but I've been spending a lot of time trying to think about what would make the marriage more loving and to make us feel more happy.

A few weeks ago, she had told me that she had wanted a couple days alone to think. She had brought it up again a couple of weeks ago. I had told her that's was why I had set up my weekend trip to CT. I had told her that I would love for her to come but I thought the more loving thing to do was to give her the time to think that she had wanted. Afterwards, I found out she felt unloved as she didn't feel like I invited her. What did she want me to do so she felt loved? I just want to understand so I can give her what she wants.

After we get past that point, if there is time in the session I would get into:

She told me how she spent Sat eveining with her girlfriend and her husband. She shared with me how happy they seemed to be. Maybe it's time for us to crank up some happiness in our relationship. What can we do to do that?

[MrBond]

"What did she want me to do so she felt loved? I just want to understand so I can give her what she wants."

That's where the problem is. She has told you that she's not thinking about what she "wants". Just what she doesn't want. Maybe your C should focus on that. And when your W says that she "wants" a D, flip it back to say, no, I mean what do you want in life? Have your C focus on that so that she thinks about herself rather than the M.

Right now she views the M as crap because she can't get over stuff. Well, like you said above, the M doesn't make you happy, you make yourself happy.

ding ding ding.

That's the enlightened thought that all of us LBS find out. But it's not until our WAWs discover and believe that nugget of truth for themselves will they stop running.