First Locked Thread in 5 Years!

[glamgirl]

Joint gifts do not mean that you are portraying a happy family. It means that you are both contributing to a gift that your son wants.

What were you planning on giving your son for a gift? Does your h's request make sense or is it unreasonable?

If it's what YOU want to do then do it. If it isn't what YOU want then nicely let your h know that you have already purchased gifts for s, but thanks for asking.

Keep it simple!

[CMNM]

OK, once again I will be honest here. It pains me, because I am such a complete and utter idiot. But, maybe all of my mistakes will help someone else eventually. 2X4 me all ya want, but you can do no worse than what I am doing to myself.

CMNM is NOT the name for me (Crazy Maker no more) as I fell right back into crazy making mode, full force.

Here's the deal:

I guess I obsessed for too long on all that was going on. Yes, I am divorced, and NO, I had no right to think any of the things I was thinking much less to act in the way I acted.

I was sitting here on my laptop, wondering what my XH was REALLY up to. I thought about the hotmail address that is attached to his IM account, and I wondered if I could get into it. Turns out I could. A simple password change is all it took.

I found several emails from a particular woman. He had nothing in his outbox. But, obviously there was something going on, as her emails (from March of last year up until this weekend- even though there were only 12 total) were full of professions of love, and signed with a nickname he had obviously given her.

The one in March of last year? Well, it was written only weeks after he sat me down and said he wanted to start fresh with me, with total honesty.

One in the fall? It was obvious he was sleeping with her. Even though he voluntarily told me he had dated someone but had NOT slept with her.

Another was sent at the time we were "dating" just in the last months.

Anyway, I read them and then had nothing to do but come clean. A simple text:
Your new password to your hotmail acc't is XXXXXXX. I am sorry. I had to know the truth.

Him: You are unbelievable. That was none of your business. Goodbye.

Still in full-on crazymaking mode, I called him. It went to voicemail, and I apologized for the dishonesty. I said that I had no excuses, other than I just wanted the truth once and for all. I asked him to please talk to me.
(I just wanted it all out there, so I can FINALLY get it thru my big head to move on already)

He texted me:
We can talk tomorrow.

Me: Why not now?

Him: Because I am too angry and too tired. I will be no good to you.


And, that's that.

I guess there is nothing to say tomorrow, is there? I suppose I could apologize more, but I don't need to hear the truth anymore. It is out there. Now that I have it, well, I wish I didn't. Of course I didn't want to see the things I did.

I wanted to believe him when he was telling me that he is working on himself, that he is no good to anyone the way that he is. I wanted to, but I knew better. You could say that I already knew something was up (the date night), but I guess I wanted to shock myself out of caring/holding on. I was always looking for that little ray of hope.

Anyway,
I guess I will see tomorrow how I feel, or if he even offers to talk. Is there anything to say? I feel so foolish and so regretful. I knew better.

No wonder he found someone else.

I let myself and my kids down. I don't think I have ever felt this low.

[sofaraway]

I let myself and my kids down. I don't think I have ever felt this low.

Is this the same CNMN that I have been reading for so long and admiring how strong she is? Are you kidding with this statement?

I wonder what you would say if I posted the same exact thing for you to read?

You know what, sometimes we have a feeling. Sometimes we verify that gut instinct. Sometimes our gut is verified. So is it a bigger let down to your kids that you snooped or would it be a bigger let down to your kids to reconcile within a web of deceit? Ultimately you and I both know that would have led to a second failure which would be devastating for you and your kids.

I want to remind you of something that will seem simplistic and maybe you will even say no shitt Ian. You are a divorced woman who has moved on with her life. For goodness sakes why have you forgotten this. You know the drill here, allow him to pursue. Maintain your boundaries. Only do what you want to do and nothing more. You are an I not a we.

You are questioning things that should be second nature to you at this point. I for one know that in your mind they are second nature because you are quick and forthright in your posts to others regarding the exact same issues that you are trying to address. I could cut and paste this thread to mine if you would like and you can respond to yourself

Stand up CNMN, pick yourself up and quit wallowing in your own self pity here. This is not said to be heartless or not compassionate. It is said because it is what you need to do here. You are allowing yourself to fall back into a way of living that you suffered through for way to long to begin with.

He has lied and deceived you once again, how many strikes does he get? Talking tomorrow, I am not sure what good that does you. Seems to me that now that the cat is out of the bag, he is the one who has some talking to do. If you speak tomorrow it will be you apologizing for learning the truth and he will use it to deflect his lies and poor behavior. What does this accomplish for you?

You said you were sorry, do not apologize again. Do not call him. Let him call you and if he tries to bring up the snooping simply tell him you already apologized for that and you two can talk when he is ready to explain what you read. Other than that there is nothing to discuss. You have two obligations here, one being to only work on a relationship with someone if it is a healthy relationship for you. The other is to only work towards a reconciliation if it is in the best interest of your family. Lies and deceit are not what makes for a successful family.


Ian

[CMNM]

Ian,

Thank You.

The first sentence nearly knocked me out of my chair. When I look at myself it is as someone who was too weak, too scared to say "if you don't want me, plenty of men will!" Somehow I got so stuck into believing that if he didn't want me there must be something so wrong that no one would. And, the truth is, i didn't want to want anyone else anyway. It would have meant giving up my dream of my family.

Thank you sincerely for the advice. You are right, I apologized and do not need to continue doing so. I know that he has a right to his life and it is no business of mine- I am angry with myself for wedging myself in there.

What is the point for him to explain what I read? Again, he owed me nothing. Believe me, I have been over it thousands of times. Yes, he never let go. Yes, we could say that he led me on with promises of learning to communicate, learning to let go of his old (and admittedly wrong) impressions of me, etc. But, still, there was no promise, no ring, no committment. Yes, I deserved honesty. It was the least he could have offered. He knew full well that it was always in my heart to start over and leave behind the mistakes of the past. If anything, that is what hurts me the most. He knew how I felt yet he strung me along. And, I do take responsibility for allowing it to happen. I thought that as long as he was doing it that there were some feelings there. He happily sat here- only 2 weeks ago tomorrow- and ate steak and told me how much he missed me. I am so angry!

3.5 years and I am still in the same f'ing spot. Is this where I finally grieve this? I feel sick to my stomach and just want to run away!

I know I have control over being the person I want to be. The person I want to be does not do stupid things like snoop. I wish I had a do-over on this whole day.

Thanks again, Ian. I have also read your threads, but never felt comfortable jumping in your well-established group. Your words have been a comfort to me on this really rough evening.

[sofaraway]

3.5 years and I am still in the same f'ing spot. Is this where I finally grieve this? I feel sick to my stomach and just want to run away!

Simplicity at it's finest. Yes, it is the time when you finally grieve this, allthough I believe you already have to a point.

Running away is not necessary, you are right where you belong. You will continue to be an independent woman and a mother. You need to remember that your life has moved on. Because you did not start dating others or fall in love does not mean that you have not moved forward with your life. Many people end relationships and take a very long time to find another one, it does not for one minute mean that they have been stagnant for that entire time.

What is the point for him to explain what I read? Again, he owed me nothing.

Let me tell you one thing, he owed you honesty. A man who ends a marriage and then begins the journey back must be held accountable for his behaviors. After all he knows the hurt and damage that was caused by the same behaviors so long ago. What he doesn't owe you is commitment, he hasn't done that. However honesty is owed. It is the same with any relationship and you know that. If your son was in high school and began dating his first girlfriend you would teach him to always be honest with her. To never try and deceive someone he is involved with right? It is no different for your ex husband, except that after what he has been through he should no better, shame on him.

You will be sad and hurt for a bit, knocked down from the clouds for a short time, but in the end you and I both know you will soar again and move on. You deserve better than what you have received.

I have also read your threads, but never felt comfortable jumping in your well-established group.

Never ever hesitate to post to me. I do not believe that anyones words around here fall on deaf ears. I cannot tell you how many times it has been a random poster that has brought the most clarity to me, and not for nothing, but how long has it been since I posted on one of your threads? What if I had decided not to share my views with you?

Take care of yourself CM....


Ian

[oldtimer]

Hey,

Well, I have a message that I wrote before you went snooping regarding your suspicions, etc...
-------
"I'm not sure why you call that crazymaking. Your guess at events sounds quite reasonable to me. A guy who is divorced and dating is extremely unlikely to be celibate.

Going dark and taking space for yourself is fine, it certainly will not make X forget you.

Unless you are at peace with friendship with X while he is seeing and sexing others, trying to be his friend probably isn't good for anyone.

Friendships don't have strings that try to control one's romantic life...

Quit focusing on what is going to trigger the "right" behavior in X. Focus on what makes for a good life for you now."
--------

So, all that pretty much stands.

I agree, you apologized, enough said. But quit snooping and don't try to excuse the snooping. It pretty much amounts to stalking at this point. He is your EX-husband. You are not in a committed, monogomous R with him. His private life is his business.

If he wants it to be otherwise, he will have to bring A LOT to the table, and like I said weeks ago, he has barely begun to be honest with you about a huge list of deep dark secrets.

As for talking it through with him, what is the point? You apologized, there really is nothing else to talk about unless he plans to meet your terms for an R or unless you decide you are OK being just friends. (Which, clearly you aren't. Friends don't stalk friends.)

If he wants to come clean, if he wants to try an exclusive romantic R with you, HE WILL MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR. If that is not where he is, then he will not be clear on it, precisely because it is not his intent.

[oldtimer]

P.S. Yes, I agree that he owed you honesty if he said that he was trying to reconcile with you and was not seeing other people or sleeping with them. It seems he has even been working on being more honest. He has, for instance, told you that he is dating and that he has deep dark secrets. He surely has not treated you well as a friend or as a romantic interest.

But this still does not mean the past lies are worth talking about. They are in the past. Unless the two of you choose friendship or a romantic R, there is no R right now in virtue of which the two of you need to work through those lies together.

Until and unless there is a relevant personal R between the two of you, it is pretty much your work to work through your pain on your own, and it whatever future Rs come your way (because the issues won't go away, you will work them out sometime with someone, or you'll be stuck). Same for him. But between the two of you, there is nothing to work out right now because there is not a personal R there right now.

[2gthrButApart]

Hi CMNM,

Just want to say I hope you're feeling a lil' better today.

(((Hugs)))

[Jack_Three_Beans]

'Trust but verify'

You verified that he was not worth the trust.

Him: You are unbelievable. That was none of your business. Goodbye.

Another was sent at the time we were "dating" just in the last months.

The old ones, are just that old.
The newer one, thats a hammer blow.*

Ian and oldtimer are right C. Get your head on straight.

*You know him better than we do. In regard to my wife. The OM kept 'bugging' her. Her words. Kept calling kept knocking on her door. She would tell me when this happened, because I told if she wanted me to trust she had to, otherwise II would form my own conclusion if I found out without her telling me.
She also had cards, letters, cds and gifts, and she is not the most organized person, so they were randomly scattered in her stuff where I would find them...because I would look. I do not consider it snooping with you are piecing. It is verifying. I would also check her email and phone.

I told her I would be doing this, I told her this was part of rebuilding trust, I wanted to trust her but I didn't, I would in time as trust begets trust. I also told her that finding that crap hurt. And I started to make a small pile of it in her closet when I found it. To which she threw it out, eventually.

In her defense, most of it she forgot about. Except the CD's. There was some good music on there : ) But she did get rid of them, broke them in half in front of me.

In order to get through this my wife had to want to and she knew I would sructinize all her actions...and inactions. I knew that in some areas, I need NOT to jump to conclusions, to swallow some hurts, but to let her know what hurt. I had to bite my tongue at times for things that no longer mattered, old things old hurts old ways old pain.

Either one of us could have fallen off that razor's edge and taken our marriage with it.

C,

Him: You are unbelievable. That was none of your business. Goodbye.

He made it your business when he started 'dating' you again. When he started coming around and talking.
Your only failing in this (perhaps, because maybe you did warn him)was not warning him that you couldn't afford to trust but you wanted to rebuild that trust with him, and until such a day, you would be verifying that your trust was not misplaced or foolish.

C, Ian and oldtimer have it right with their advice to you. Part of your old support group if I am not mistaken, and they know you better than I. : )

[CMNM]

Hi OT.

Well, I didn't get half the beating I expected.


Stalker huh? Well, I have had better moments, that is for sure. It was dumb. Beyond dumb. I have no excuses. I would take it back if I could- and no, not because of what was there.


Jack, you are right- I know him better than anyone here. Which is ridiculous to say, seeing I prove again and again that I don't know anything! What I do know is that he does not like himself very much. What I do know is that he does love me, in some way. I also know that I scare him (his words), and that he doesn't feel adequate around me (his words again).

What you know is that I take responsibility for everything, so of course I have spent endless amounts of time trying to pump him up. He tells me he is not my equal intellectually (get up off the floor, when I am not being a complete dumbass I am actually a pretty smart chick). He is slow and methodical; I am quick. I am the girl you want on your trivial pursuit team...which, I might add is pretty useless in real life, but he seems to respect it greatly. I do think he is the smartest man I know, but he doesn't believe that. He thinks I am patronizing him when I say this.

What I also know is that it is easier for him to walk away than to do the work he needs to do. I admit, I am guilty of trying to save him from himself. I listened when he told me that he wakes up in the mornings and gets that awful feeling in his stomach when he thinks about what he has done to his life and family. I heard those things and just wanted so badly to help him. Yes, a mistake. A big one.

I need to read the rest of the replies, so I will post today's interaction in a sec. I need you guys, so I hope you are there.

Pam