And H didn't ask about me at all. Nada. It was ALL about him. As before the bomb. Every night we would talk about him and his work. I volunteered information about my day and my friends and family but he didn't ask about me. Also, he knew it was my Dad's 70th and he didn't ask about my dad and mom or family. He really is self-absorbed at the moment. I know this is typical behavior of MLC but thinking back on our telephone conversations with his Mom on Sundays. He always told her in minute detail about his work ( which was the same with me). But he wasn't really all that interested in her life. In fact he would make faces about how overdrawn her stories were and how much she diverts from the point of the story. He is not known for his patience, I'm afraid. So I guess this has been a pattern for him for a long time. Need to ask myself if I can accept it or not. I used to see it as my way of helping him unload the burden of his day, to help him relax. Now I see it as more of everything being about him and not so much about me. Lack of balance in the R.
So do I look at the conversation in the kitchen as a baby step forward? Did setting a boundary the other night make him respect me more so that he could open up a little bit of himself in front of me?
Or should I look at it as him avoiding any talk of R, any real connection and more of the same old behavior?
S8 was very happy that his dad rushed home to tuck him in while I was away. You see, his dad had NEVER (I am not exaggerating) tucked him in during the work week. He worked late every night and would not see his children in the morning either so he only ever saw them on Sundays and maybe some Saturdays as he worked on Sats as well. So he was estatic that his dad put him first for ten days (well nine as he didn't make it one night). You should have seen the look on his face when he talked about it. I think he got a lot of self-esteem out of it.
It's so sad because I practically MADE his dad do it as he didn't volunteer in the past or even volunteer for it this time. So sad because I am finally at a stage of thinking of moving away to be closer to my family. So sad because my son attaches so much importance to the presence of his dad and his dad has NO CONCEPT of how important he is in his kids' lives. So sad because I can see all of this and have very little say in the matter. All I can is just encourage H's parenting. His every effort eventhough his heart is really in his achievements at work. I know this. I think even OW's charms pales in comparison to the charms of his work. He is obssessed with it, that is why he is successful. I am very sad for my children.I am very sad for my children.
He thinks he has a good balance but I am very subtly trying to change the dynamic of his R with the kids by being more hands-off on purpose and having H take care of them more. A big 180 for me and not my nature at all. I read somewhere on this BB that the more a person invests in something, the more valuable it becomes to them. I want H to feel more invested in the kids so he can feel their value to him. I was wrong in the past for doing everything for them so that H was left with almost nothing to do for them ( My Mother was the same way so I was following a pattern.) I thought I was helping out in the family cause that I was the stay at home mom so it was my 'job' to do everything and relieve my H of some of the parenting duties. I know that was the wrong technique now. He ended up not bonding enough with them and bonding with his work instead. I was very wrong in my assumption that H was like my dad in that dad put his family first. In the last couple of years, I did try to back off a bit and have my H take care of them for a couple of hours on Sunday but he became bitter about it. I guess I had already spoiled him and he thought that I had unloaded onto him. I don't think he thinks that anymore and is more centered in his way of thinking about the children, therapy has helped. But also that he is starting to look at them not as a burden but as more of a joy. I am glad to our counsellor for that.
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
Hi there PM. You sound like you're doing everything right at the moment. Keep it up.
As for what you say about trying to encourage your H to take more of an active roll in his children, I think that would be a good thing. The way I see it is that he must be very unsure how to be around them since he's never really had that active a roll with them. Although I saw my S every day, I was always the less active parent due to my work. I would always look to my W for validation any time I suggested something for him. That was suddenly taken away and I was left to make the decisions myself when I had Wee Man to myself. It was a steep learning curve for me even though I'd already had a lot of interaction with him every day. There are times I still feel like calling my W for advice when something's going on with him. I do manage to stop myself though as I don't think it's healthy. I need to prove to my W that I'm a good Dad and can handle whatever my S gets up to. It's driven by fear of doing something wrong. I can see that this is probably where your H is as well. His bitterness with you when you leave him alone with the kids may be born out of fear. I know because I've experienced it to a lesser extent.
What you're doing with congratualting him with any good parenting skills he exhibits is a good thing. It will help to increase his confidence in what he's doing and therefore increase the pleasure and pride he has while spending time with them. He struggles to spend time alone with them because he's never had to do it before. Parenting is something you're going to have to teach him. I think a good way of doing this is by slowly increasing the time he spends alone with them gradually. Eventually it may even get to the stage that they can stay over with him. I know this will be hard on you because you've always had your kids with you but I think it will also help your M in the long run.
The fact of the matter is that regardless of how things are going between the two of you, he has to start taking responsibility for his two wonderful children. When he starts appreciating them and enjoying them more, he'll see that they are something the OW can never offer. When he gets bitten by the parenting bug, nothing else will come close. Not his work, his OW or even you. The difference is that with you, your kids are something that you can very much enjoy together. IMO this can only bring you closer together as a couple.
As I've said before, I don't know your H so what I've written may be completely off the mark. By what you've said about him though, it sounds to me as though your H is just now beginning to discover the wonder of being a parent. Work on that and see where it takes you.
You're doing fantastic. Keep smiling.
Kev
Me: 32, Wife: 22 Son: 2 Married: 2 years Separated: January 5th 2009
Sometimes you have to become lost before you can find yourself.
Thank you so so so much for giving me your POV. That was fantastic! You really explained what my H might be thinking by presenting a father's POV. I am so thankful. I think you nailed it on the head, he is acting out of fear!! It makes perfect sense! I know he loves his kids but I didn't know why he looked resentful and uncomfortable, silly me thought that it had to do with ME. But no, it was his insecurity! Wow, thanks so much for your insight.
Also, what you said about him not being able to enjoy the kids with OW was exactly what my IC said but what you said made it more clear in my head. thank you! I will continue to encourage him in his parenting and will do so without resentment or wonder. I will do it because it makes more sense now and can approach it from a better POV. I really really hope that he will be bitten by the parenting bug. I hope that nothing will measure in comparison, if he has that I will be a very happy Mom. Thank you very much for those words, Kev :-)
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
I know I am a tough old cookie in many ways, but it amazes me that a wife would have to compliment her H about his parenting skills! After all, it took both of you to bring them into this world and both of you are their parents. Does he compliment you for how you are such a great mother? Maybe he does and I just missed those posts. But, I suppose if that is what you have to do, so be it. I really do not know how you endure his selfishness but as I have said before, you certainly have a lot of grace. I do believe he should be accountable for telling the children of his plans instead of going through you and pushing the dirty work off on you. Even though it is him that is falling down on his job as a father, whenever you are the one that has to break the news to the kids, they are angry at "you" even if they don't mean to be. It is kind of like the doctor that has to give the bad diagonisis to the patient and they are angry at him. He is making you out to be the bad guy by always having to tell the kids that he isn't going to be around and you are handing them a package of disappointment. That is very unfair to you and he needs to be an adult parent and he should be made to face his kids or at least talk to them by phone.....none of that email, cowardly way. I'm afraid I would not have been able to wait 24 hours to say anything to him, either. He wants to pretend he isn't a father, and that he is young, single and carefree. Did you notice how he used the expression "boys time" when refering to keeping his son? It is just a suggestion, but if I were you, I would refuse to be his delivery person of disappointing news from now on and he can tell his children his own plans. Either that, or tell him that you are going to allow them to read the emails he sends you regarding his plans, since he is too much of a coward to tell them himself.
I just don't have much respect for a man like that. For your sake, I hope he grows up soon. I apologize for sounding so sarcastic and certainly was not aiming any of that toward you.
Take care, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hi Sandi, I know, I know. After listening to CIW's point of view, I have a little more sympathy for H. You see when someone is insecure, they need a lot of reassurance. Remember the first time you drove a car? Or when you started a new hobby like tennis or something? You want people to tell you how you are doing it right, not how you are doing it wrong. The more encouragement you get, the more you would like the activity and enjoy it and take pleasure in it. As I see it, the more pleasure it gives my H in his parenting role, my kids get most of the rewards - they get a loving father. I want to be able to give that to my children!!!
So yes, I am sarcastic as well in regards to, why don't I get any kudos from HIM. But I need to let my pride down and say to myself, if the rewards go to my kids then that is the BEST outcome for me.
I don't have low self-esteem. I know I am a good mom. I don't need someone else to tell me that, to validate my role. My goal is the happiness of my children in this matter.
Everything else can wait, our R, everything. I want my kids protected and happy.
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
Kev, I started on your book, 'No more Mr Nice Guy' yesterday. Wow!!
At first my intention was to read it and try to find out qualities that I had so I can solve them. BUT when I continue to get into it, I saw my H in Mr Nice Guy. Totallly not what I was expecting from the book. It described him to a 'T'!!! I am so excited about this book. Because it really gives me a window into his personality and his motivations.
1) Like that he looks to females in his life to give him approval. He basically said that to me when the bomb dropped, 'You don't approve of me.' I thought, WTH?????
2) He thought my moods were getting him down, I know why now. He thinks I am not approving or accepting of him EVEN when I am upset about something that is TOTALLY unconnected to him. OMG!! It's all about him! Why does he thinks everything is connected to him???
3) Attachments. He put on a really good show to his Mom to show what a 'great dad' he was when she visited. He needs external validation. The great job, the beautiful kids, his achievements, his house etc. Now I understand that he doesn't think he is good enough in himself. His Dad never approved of his as a child and I think he carries a lot of the 'I am bad, I am not good enough' attitude with him thru his life.
4) Walls - work addiction, humor, sarcasm, intellectualism, perfectionism and isolation. He had ALL of those traits under Walls. Wow!
5) Covert contracts - yes, we use them in our R all the time. Now I have a name for them and it all makes sense. No wonder I found it hard to talk about anything serious. He likes to use covert contracts. The problem was, I didn't know what was expected of me so I couldn't keep up my end. He said he wanted 'calm days'. The book even explained that if he was to do everything right then he would be happy. A Major misconception!
6) Disconnected with other men. I have often thought H did not have close male role models. I think he tried to find it in the workplace and have succeeded to some extent but they were not intimate relationships i.e. sharing feelings, more drinking buddies sort of thing.
Kev, I am only halfway thru the book but is very excited. It's like you handed me a handbook on my H and for this I am eternally grateful. I can't stop thinking about all the themes in the book.
Do you find yourself identifying with the Nice Guy Syndrome? If you do, I would like to talk more indepth with you about the details so I can find out why my H behaves in certain ways. E.g. your explanation about him wanting recognition of his parenting skills was spot-on, I think. Thanks so much.
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
PM, more hints. Look at my sitch...what type of e-mail did I mention... Then Look at my nickname and add 6096 to it with no spaces. let me know.
Me 53 H 50 D16, D29 M 22 years bomb 7/08 INH - alien pod replaces H 8/08 - OW (direct report), I work there also bomb II - H moves 10/1 expose ow 10/22 D to be final 9-09
PM, I'm glad you're finding so much from NMMNG. It was a really interesting read. The one thing I would ask is that if you truly think it represents your H so well, should it not really be him who's reading it? It's a book to try and break the 'Nice Guy' syndrome in someone who has it.
As for whether I found myself identifying with the syndrome, the answer would have to be most definitely. After reading the book I discovered that I was an a-typical Nice Guy. I found it refreshing to finally have the answers to why I was like I was. Dr Glover definitely has something there. What I would like to see from him though is a book more based in saving marriage from a nice guy's perspective. NMMNG is definitely more about saving yourself (possibly at the expense of everything else). For a time I did visit the forum based on the book but soon stopped after getting advice time and again to just ditch my W and move on to be a better person. It wasn't doing me any good. I'm sure that in certain situations, those answers would be valid but they weren't the ones I was wanting to hear. The warning that Dr Glover gives in his book is that when applied in a relationship, the principles he suggests may very well break it as much as fix it.
So, I would say that I took from NMMNG the parts which I thought would help my M and ignored those that wouldn't. Probably not the best way to do it but at the time I was living in fear of losing my W. It's thanks to that book that I reclaimed my marital bed for instance. I think maybe I might read it again from the perspective that I'm now a LBH. It might even make more sense this time round.
I'm more than willing to discuss all this more in depth with you or anything else PM. I'm thinking I'm going to be visiting these boards for a long time to come so I'll be here whenever you need me.
Kev
Me: 32, Wife: 22 Son: 2 Married: 2 years Separated: January 5th 2009
Sometimes you have to become lost before you can find yourself.
Yes, I am reading more and in the later chapters, they sort of gloss over the specific problems with the wife and most of the time, the wife is just a vague human being who is being very unreasonable. That does not paint a true picture of both sides of the story nor is it fair to not address the needs of the other person involved in the M. As well, they seem to give up pretty quickly, don't they. The attitude of, well, if it isn't working for me, I'll just go out to find something better, she is unreasonable and I am justified. Wow! So I see your point about the BB might not be where you and I are at this moment. It sounds too much like what my H's attitude is. He thinks that the M is doomed, nothing in the R will change even if he is growing so why bother to try at all. Not a good attitude.
But there are many merits as well and his observations are excellent. I just don't think he is a marriage counsellor or marriage saver like Michele.
Kev, can you tell me, if Mr Nice Guy thinks he has tried his darndest to please his woman and thinks that he can't succeed (for whatever reason in his head), what would it take to change his mind about the situation? I guess my question is, I have made a lot of changes in myself this past year - H is not interested and does not ask about me but I sense he is still seeking approval from me. To tell you the truth, it is a lot of pressure to continue to give him kudos and constant reassurance. He needs to find his personal power but what can I do? Do I say anything? Do I keep feeding him approval or do I just step back from the picture all together? I don't want him dependent on me for approval since the book says it's unhealthy but I do want to encourage him in his parenting. What would you do if you were in my H's shoes?
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
PM, you really are an amazing woman. I should be more like you. I have never been good at validating my H. I always felt so fake when trying to do it. I don't have a problem with anyone else, so why would I have a problem with him.
When we were going through our bad time after he found out about OM, he told me that he never felt like I was there for him. I almost fell through the floor and then it made me mad b/c (without going through pages to explain) I felt that I had devoted my life to trying to support him and be there for him in whatever he did. When I mentioned just a few things to remind him, he then said that he did not know how to "explain" what he meant. He never has been able to communicate with me about his feelings. It has been a "guessing game" for me our entire M b/c he did not know how to express much of anything.
I compliment him on how nice he looks or things he has done, but I don't think he feels it is enough. However, it goes both ways. Whenever I have brought up the subject of him not validating me.....he acts shocked that I don't "just know it" and nobody should have to tell me.
So, maybe you could help me learn how to validate him without feeling or sounding like I am being as fake as a $3 bill. (I hear the $2 are back...LOL)
I want you to know that when I bring up anything in your stitch, I am not giving you a 2x4, but only expressing my own POV. I think you are an example for all the LBW's that want to stand for their M as long as there is hope.
Take care, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
