I understand your advice Puppy, and don't disagree. I am saying don't cut off the nose to spite the face or if you do make sure you are ready for plastic surgery or to wear a bandage.
As for moving to another bedroom, I advise caution and really think about how this will affect you too. I'm not saying don't do it, just saying to think about your emotions and feelings by taking away the limited physical connection you do have.
This is just my opinion but I think moving from the bed is the worst thing you can do. My W moved to another room at the end of December and that pretty much ended any type "intimacy" that we had, and I think, lead to the place we are now. if you're in the same bed then there is a connection..when you're not then that connection vanishes. JMO.
I'm not going to leave the bed. I stay up late when I can't handle it. Sometimes I take long walks, sometimes I sit at the computer and use the time do online stuff I otherwise wouldn't have time to do.
She pulls more than her share. And I guess there's no point in being totally secretive about everything; we're both school teachers in the same district, but she's teaching summer school this year and I'm not. That's why I'm home at the moment. When I say I do laundry and dishes, I don't mean I do all of it. I'd say I do more dishes and she does more laundry for most of the year. When I'm home all day, it makes more sense for me to do it. Vacuuming/dusting is a Shop Vac proposition in our construction zone, so I guess I do more of that, but all in all, when we're both working full time, I'm sure she does more housework than I do. Besides, she gets off work earlier than I do, so she usually ends up picking up the kids and getting their homework started. The twins lived crazy lives before we adopted them, and they still have serious emotional problems, so this is not easy. I'm not saying she's lazy around the house; I'm saying I've been advised before that if I would just pitch in and help, our problems would be solved, and I've found that isn't true.
But I tell my students and my kids that you can't control what the other people do, you only control you. I need to live that way. The advice about the bedroom is spot on. It's just not a romantic place at all. The door lock has been broken forever, since the dog locked herself in and I had to break open the antique lock. The door wouldn't even stay closed without a prop. With the kids next door, I know that worried her. So today I removed all traces of the old antique knob and lockset ("Patented 1863") and installed a new lockset that holds the door firmly and locks securely. Next will be to donate enough old clothes to GoodWill that we won't have to have piles of clothing in the room. After that, that room is going to be the first to get new windows, because that's what I need before I can rip out the rest of the crumbling plaster and build a room where she'll feel relaxed.
I'm telling you, none of you can understand how terrible this house is. If only I had cancer, Home Makeover would come build us a new house. I really think the house is a bottleneck. I don't think she can relax here. But the thing is, it's her dream house. She just had to have it, and I just had to get it for her. It has the potential to be a wonderful place, but right now it's all potential. Frankly, I feel like she thinks it should be done by now, and the fact that I don't move faster on getting the house done shows how inadequate I am. That's probably wrong, but that's how it feels.
I'm really rambling here, but it feels good to talk to people who aren't involved. I've asked my wife to go to counseling with me, but I get the soft rejection. She says yes, puts on a brave face, nods through tears, but nothing comes of it. I'm thinking about doing the phone session by myself if she won't join me, but I want to give her a chance to read the book first.
WCW, no offense meant or taken. I just meant that I don't think she thinks in terms of the things I've sacrificed to be with her at all. The goalposts move. One of the things I've sacrificed is the chance to make love to any of those kinds of women, and yes, that includes women with small breasts. But no, I'm not looking for anything outside my marriage.
I think I'm a pretty good husband overall. I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't gamble. I don't stay out late. I have a forge in the toolshed that hasn't seen a fire for three years now because I don't have time to do any metalwork anymore. I have fishing poles, but I don't go fishing. At most I take the family and bait hooks for the kids. I love to go shooting, and I haven't given up my gun club membership, but I haven't been shooting since November. I loved jiu-jitsu, but the classes were held an hour away on weekday evenings, and I just couldn't justify the time away from the family. When we got married, she'd never been allowed to choose her own car, so when we both got jobs, we went looking. She picked out a bright red Camaro with t-tops. I hated that car, but it was her dream car, so we got it. The idea was that soon we'd be able to get something else newer and it'd be my turn. But of course, when the boys came along, and then the baby, the Camaro wasn't cutting it for her and she now desperately wanted a mini-van. We went out and got the nicest one we could afford, and she was in love with it from the start . . . but guess what I drive? To her credit, she says we're going to work on getting the car I want this summer and getting rid of the Camaro, but so far every time there's a car I want to look at, it's a bad time. I'm not asking for a huge commitment here. I'm talking about a specific brand and model of used car that goes for about $2500; we can afford to pay cash for it. And it's not that she's against it, or she's saying "no." She just seems to think it doesn't matter one way or the other.
I don't know what to think. She says the introduction to the SSM book made her cry, so maybe it meant something to her. But I've often felt, maybe unfairly, that she cries when I bring up sex partly because it shuts me down. Sometimes I just push through and continue the conversation, but oftentimes I just can't.
Everything that implies any dissatisfaction with our sex life makes her cry. That's what makes it so maddening to talk to her about it. She usually doesn't discuss it in terms of what we can do. She either doesn't want to talk, or she cries about what a bad person and a bad wife she is. There's no middle ground. Before, I would cut off the conversation when the tears started. In the last couple of years, I've just steeled myself and kept talking. It ends on a hopeful note, but nothing really changes. As nearly as I can tell, she cries because she thinks I'm calling her a bad person when I bring up sex. Also, her parents had a messy, hateful divorce and she's terrified I'm going to leave her. That's part of the reason I'm so emphatic about never leaving. My parents have a very loving marriage. It's not perfect--picture Hank Hill, with Hank's dad living in the same small town--but they love each other and as far as I know never considered separating. I want to have that too, and I feel like I'm about 90% there. But I still don't want to live like roommates. It's not that I want to be passionately in love. I AM passionately in love.
I tried to talk to her about why the SSM intro made her cry, but she was already shutting down and it was, after all, 4:00 in the morning. And I'm supposed to be doing a 180 and not pestering her to discuss it, of course. So I just said, "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have tried to do this at 4 in the morning, let's get sleep." It's really not fair for me to pester her to read relationship stuff; she's dyslexic, and although she reads well, when she gets tired the words start moving around on her. Reading all about something is my approach, not hers. But she doesn't seem to have an approach to this, other than "I'll try harder." I know she tries, but it's not working.
More random bitching and moaning:
One thing that really drives me around the bend is the way I have to be all things to her. Very often, once sex is somehow initiated, she wants me to be this rough, dominating guy--as if she's being taken roughly in the barn, I guess. That's OK with me, except that I can't slip in and out of "character" in an instant the way she demands. Everything I ask is denied, rejection all the way for weeks at a time, then when she decides she's ready, suddenly I'm supposed to take charge and be forceful--but the instant it's too forceful, you can feel the temperature in the room drop. And if it's not forceful enough, you can feel the apathy. But how in the world can you spend ten years beating a man's spirit down and emphasizing that he has no control over his sex life and you hold all the cards--and then expect him to pretend to be in charge? We both know I'm not in charge. Ever. We both know there's nothing forceful or demanding in me acting demanding, because she can and will shut me down whenever she wants.
Oh, and I might as well tell on myself while I'm telling on her. I hate some of the things I've said. We once had an argument, and I brought up the past (dumb in itself, I know.) Specifically, I brought up our wedding night, when she was "too tired" for sex. On our wedding night. Pretty bad, right? Only she informed me that I was remembering something that never happened--that she talked about being too tired at first, but then "gave in to make you happy, and now you don't even remember it." I don't know what to think. I don't think she'd lie about this, and I know what I remember, so one of us is remembering things that didn't happen. Am I so angry that I remember her doing things that didn't really happen? I don't know.
I bring this up because I found that coupon book today. That made me remember that I was sure I'd thrown it away. Maybe I did, and she rescued it . . . . or maybe I changed my mind, but I remembered it the way that seemed to fit the way I feel now. The coupon book is a minor thing--it doesn't really matter whether I trashed it or not--but imagine being accused of rejecting your husband on your wedding night if it hadn't happened? I know I'm not the only one getting hurt.
From what I've read so far, I really doubt if your wife's crying is manipulative, it sounds more like "flooding" to me. I think the issue with sex may boil down to her self-esteem:
Quote:
She either doesn't want to talk, or she cries about what a bad person and a bad wife she is... As nearly as I can tell, she cries because she thinks I'm calling her a bad person when I bring up sex. Also, her parents had a messy, hateful divorce and she's terrified I'm going to leave her.
You also mentioned that she thinks she's overweight (although you think she's beautiful) and struggles with depression. Did you guys already look at her her depression meds as a contributing factor? Cause those can dampen libido.
What jumps out to me is that you're wife needs to work on her happy. You see her as being in control and manipulating you, but it just might be that people with low self-esteem can be completely self-involved. I don't see that she feels in control of the situation, in fact, she wants you to be in control. Unconsciously, she may be trying to set the stage to recreate the abandonment baseline she grew up with, but that's obviously not what she wants. She just doesn't know how to get there.
You're right--actually seeing a therapist instead of a GP (?!?) for her depression would be an excellent start. :head-desk:
It is in the shelter of each other that people live.--Irish proverb
Very often, once sex is somehow initiated, she wants me to be this rough, dominating guy--as if she's being taken roughly in the barn, I guess. That's OK with me, except that I can't slip in and out of "character" in an instant the way she demands. Everything I ask is denied, rejection all the way for weeks at a time, then when she decides she's ready, suddenly I'm supposed to take charge and be forceful--but the instant it's too forceful, you can feel the temperature in the room drop. And if it's not forceful enough, you can feel the apathy. But how in the world can you spend ten years beating a man's spirit down and emphasizing that he has no control over his sex life and you hold all the cards--and then expect him to pretend to be in charge? We both know I'm not in charge. Ever. We both know there's nothing forceful or demanding in me acting demanding, because she can and will shut me down whenever she wants.
This paragraph struck a chord with me, as I am in the process of working through a similar situation myself. If you're interested, take a look at my latest thread and the relevant discussion that followed. Your wife's fantasies/desires are not that unusual: there are many strong, dominant women by day who dream of being 'ravished' and submitting to a stronger, more dominant man by night --> it's the stuff that romance novels are full of. And with love, trust, and good communication these desires are something you can both take advantage of in your marital relationship.
I fully understand how you feel when you say that it's nearly impossible to take charge and be dominant inside of the bedroom when you feel nothing of the sort where your sex life is concerned. I was in the same boat not long ago, and felt like my wife was the one in true control and the 'gate-keeper' of our sex life. The truth was, my wife utterly HATED being the one in charge of it. It turned her OFF. It didn't work for her and made her less inclined to have sex, which caused me to feel even more rejected and less inclined to initiate, especially in a seductive, take-charge fashion. The more timid or indecisive I became, the less interested she became, and around and around we went.
Like you, I am no actor and don't role-play well. Neither is my wife turned on by acting or role-playing. So for us, it was important for me to 'man up' both inside and outside of the bedroom in order for the situation to change for the better. No, this doesn't mean becoming a domineering tyrant or bullying jerk. In fact, my wife feels more cared for, respected, and cherished now than when we began this process: I adore her and thoroughly enjoy treating her like the queen that she is to me. It's primarily been about improving my self-esteem, being more assertive and confident, and taking responsibility for those aspects of the family/relationship that my wife would rather place in my hands (i.e. with her consent and approval) --> sex-life included. One could say the process has been one of enhancing our respective masculine and feminine roles in the relationship, which tends to turn us both on to each other. Along the way, however, there has to be a lot of love, trust, and good communication for it to work for both of you.
An important final thought: The topic of dominance & submission, both inside and especially outside of the bedroom is a very, very touchy one, and for good reason: abuse must be a constant concern and avoided without exception. Also, what works for one couple does not work for another -- so take my input with a grain of salt. I spotted a potential commonality, and have described how it relates to what works for myself and my wife. Take that input as you deem fit.
Best wishes to you,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
The topic of dominance & submission, both inside and especially outside of the bedroom is a very, very touchy one, and for good reason: abuse must be a constant concern and avoided without exception.
Well, yeah, and I may err on the side of caution. I don't know. There's no bright line, and I admit, I've always had a fear of being seen as a bully. I'm a very big guy, and I've always enjoyed rough combat sports, but that's what I like about them. Everyone who steps on a mat or into a ring knows what's up. Everyone knows the rules and the limits. The other guy may choke you, or crank an armbar, but that's OK, because that's the game. There's no bullying or actual malice going on, at least at my level. Everyone understands your actions clearly in context. I want to be that "gentle giant" not the big bully.
When it comes to men dominating women or vice versa, the lines and limits won't hold still long enough for me to learn the rules. I enjoy ravishing my wife as much as the next guy, but I'm terrified that I'm going to cross a line and make things worse. And it's obvious that she's trying to lead me to her fantasy, but she just keeps asking about mine. I want to say, "Look, I told you about my fantasies. If you want to act out your fantasy, tell me what it is. I won't say no." She just puts it back on me.
Anyway, thank you both. It's after ten and I just got home from obedience school. I've got Bagheera's thread open in another window for the morning, but I'm going to go upstairs and see if she's awake.
I told her before I left that I wanted to finish our conversation about the SSM book, but she should just tell me when she's ready. Michele says in the book that this takes pressure off her, so we'll see if that helps. The last time I did something no-pressure like that, though, it ended in her doing nothing and refusing to read the piece I'd printed out. (It was Julia Grey's Salon blog about her low-desire problems and fixing her marriage.
Driving home last night, a song lyric came out of nowhere and got stuck in my head. I'm going to type it in and then maybe it will stop playing over and over in my head.
"I may lack social graces. . . But I won't swallow my pride. There are millions of places. . . I could be, But I'm here by your side . . ."
I don't know who wrote it, but it's a song called "I'll Be There For You" on a Willie Nelson album called The Great Divide. I think it sums up my frustration pretty well. I've told her before, I'm not trying to brag, but I feel like I'm a pretty good guy, and I didn't have to commit myself to her. I just wanted to, and I thought she was doing it with a full heart, too. Now we tell each other that no matter what happens with sex, we won't doubt that we love each other, but that's hard to do when I touch her and she sighs out "Do you HAVE to do that?"
Well, since you ask, no. I don't HAVE to do it. I don't HAVE to be here with you at all. I WANT to "do that" for the same reason I WANT to be here with you in the first place. Call me crazy, but I love you. What's your excuse?
