sgctxok....I'm listening.....

[princess_nic]

(((FIB)))

Honourable men need hugs, too!

I don't know what the card meant; I could parse it, possibly even write a dissertation on it, and still not really know. I'm not even sure it really matters. As you say, actions are what matter now. Will she step up? You have, now it's her turn. At some point, a tango really does take two people.

all YOU can do is pick away at what I write..but...I LIVE HERE WITH HER.

Yep, you are right. That is the key - sometimes, we just have to go with our gut, not just want we WANT to see/believe.

FIB, you have done and continue to do your very best here. I honestly don't think you could have done more to save your M. You have done far more than the vast majority of spouses, even those who loves their S very much.

Should S7 grow up learing that husband's sleep on couches?
Or should he learn that he should respect himself and know when to leave something bad for him? (yes..he WILL know one day how I feel about standing to save a M and never to run at the outstart).

Should D4 learn to dress provocatively and know that it's OK to cross relationship boundaries or learn that there are consequences to her actions? If what they say is true..that I preach here..that my D will choose a man based on her father, then, I CANNOT FAIL HER. STAYING IN A DESTRUCTIVE DEAD M IS FAILING MY D4.

I've thought about this a lot, and it is a big reason why I am glad that my M is over. It was not good in many ways, and it is absolutely not the M I want my children to have. I don't want my S6 to think it's okay to have no R with his children, to go out every night, to never be dependable. Nor do I want my D11 to think it's okay for her H to be like that. The model we give them is very important (I speak from experience, unfortunately). My stbx and his sister both cheated on their spouses, both got divorced, are both codependent and neurotic. Hmmmm - family influence there?

my back door is still open to her

*ahem* SOOO tempting...but...I'll let it go.

Love,
Nicola

[Bworl]

FIB,

So glad Nic jumped on the "back door" comment so that I can leave THAT one alone, lol.

You sound good FIB. Good in the sense that you sound strong and stable. Not happy at how things have turned out so far of course, but clear on what YOU need to do now.

Strongest comment in your post is right here..

I bought her flowers...and I didn't even need to post here to ask if I should. That's easy...I bought them because I wanted to.

If you're making your decisions based on what YOU want, rather than what ANYONE else would want, you're in a good place.


I'm here if you need to bounce anything around. And I'm always checking on you of course. Stay strong my friend.


Blessings,

Bill

[Jeff223]

much to my surprise (yes), my W gave me an upper level box of chocolates, a new shirt from Armani Exchange and a card, that, well, fell quite short in my mind considering what she says to me. Please...I know that many of you would prefer to say positives about the card and certainly it is better than being treated like dirt...but it is out of place with regards to her words. Her actions are more important to me now..

I hate to point out that giving you a gift was an action my friend. It is one of the five love languages.

Written: Dear Frank, I know that it's not the happiest one, but I hope that it gets better. Happy Valentine's Day. Love, XXX (her full formal name).

Your response should have been "thank you". Nothing more, nothing less.

Me: XXX....almost two years ago, on Father's Day...you didn't give me a card ......

Each time we bring up the past we wish things were different. We attempt to change what cannot be changed. We suffer and we make her suffer. Every time you try to explain or justify, everyone loses.

She may deserve to suffer Frank but you are above dishing that out. And you are above hurting you.

Remember we are shooting for forgiveness. To live in the present momment with a vision for a better future.

Let the past go Frank.

If there is anyway to save our M, XXX (see, I STILL have left a door open a crack)...it would take a miracle...you would have to move mountains. I'm sorry. I'm sure YOU KNOW what would need to be done. But...I WILL know what it looks like if it happens.

You left the door open? By setting impossible expectations? By insisting that she knows?

Is it not better to wait and see without requiring they please us?

The rest of your post says you are done, or at least tries to. No need to pick those words apart.

We both know that there is an internal conflict still. How do I know? B/c I have the same conflict, even after my divorce.

Hurts like hell does it not my friend? And it sucks.

Where's the beef?

Maybe she is out of beef? Maybe she is trying to offer you that new chicken sandwich?

Just a thought to ponder.

In any event, you know my feelings here Frank. But maintaining an open mind and a positive outlook is not a bad thing.

Please try not to let those internal conflicts rule your thinking. Concentrate on you and the kids.

Did I mention this sucks?

Strength and Honor.

[missmyfriend]

FIB, praying for you and yours buddy. I know He will take care of you and your family

Manly hugs out to you!

[faithisbelieving]

Thanks all. My only comment is that I didn't choose any words to 'punish' my W. I wanted to give her a perspective..in terms of how SHE felt about me in the past...to know where my feelings stood right now. It certainly helps to keep thins in a 'positive light' for the time being..for the sake of the kids.

Indeed Jeff, candies and a shirt ARE actions...actions she's done in the past. Shirts, candies....spooning......etc....were all done during times of indiscretions. It's simply just not enough....for me...right now.

I don't expect anymore...like I did in the past...that a bolt of lightening is going to come down from the heavens and suddenly, there is XXX saying 'I just woke up from the worst dream...I love you..let's make love and start all over again'. That's not coming.

But for an M to be successful and STABLE FOR THE LONGTERM, there needs to be something greater.

It isn't spooning.
It isn't chocolates or shirts.
It isn't having coffee being made for you in the morning.

Monkeys can do that.

There is something greater that needs to be here and like The Little Train That Could, it all starts with an "I think I can".

THAT needs to come from her.
It isn't huge.
It isn't total submission.

It's something very small...something that ALL OF US..by now...would recognize.

It's not here.....you'll have to trust me..it's not here.

It's not safe to un-detach.
It's not safe to open and trust.
It's not safe to change and pursue.
It's not safe to stop this right now...for me....for my kids.



FIB

[faithisbelieving]

PS..nic....in the words of frank_d , you're gonna be OK. Thanks for staying with me SO LONG. HUGS back. FIB

[frank_D]

Thanks all. My only comment is that I didn't choose any words to 'punish' my W. I wanted to give her a perspective..in terms of how SHE felt about me in the past...to know where my feelings stood right now.

Why? So you could feel better?

I agree with Jeff. She did something nice in the midst of chaos and your response was to diminish the action TO HER by dragging up the past so she could be reminded of her mistakes while she was in the midst of TRYING to do SOMETHING to make up for at least one of them.

No, not a 'baby step' but geeze man, she's HUMAN.

Is it so hard for you to ACCEPT anything from her that comes from a place of caring? Where is the FIB who is 'detached', because your response to her wasn't from 'detachment', it was from anger and a need to punish.

If my W had given me something like yours gave you (she gave me nothing) I would have thanked her and smiled. Not because I would have thought she was she was 'coming back' but because she was reaching out to me. She was trying to say "I care" in any way she could find to do it.

Yeah, your W did some awful things that violated your trust, broke your vows and are generally SH*TTY. And she will likely pay for it by losing you forever.

But YOU are so caught up in the anger that you won't at least see that the more you keep beating her up when she tries to treat YOU decently, because you see it as her manipulating you, the more you will NOT be able to deal with her when you DO get divorced.

Read the 'blue book' again because you are not 'lovingly forgiving' her.

Or, just kick her to the curb NOW and save her and yourself more pain because no matter what she has done, she doesn't deserve to continually be told that anything she does now, even if it's out of confused emotions, is wrong and to be thrown back in her face.

Like my counselor said to me years ago. Treat her like Jesus would treat a stranger.

Maybe you'll never talk to me again but I gotta tell you that when we talk on the phone and I bring up anything where I think my W is doing 'something' with her 'text message' friend you get loud and angry and tell me how I shouldn't even TRY to believe she may NOT be doing what I think she is. You then usually go off on how YOU tried to believe that you could trust your W and were proven wrong over and over.

I FEEL the anger through the phone. It hurts me to feel it.

What is it doing to you?

[Bworl]

Ok, just my 2 cents worth here.

Each time we bring up the past we wish things were different. We attempt to change what cannot be changed. We suffer and we make her suffer. Every time you try to explain or justify, everyone loses.

I don't completely agree with Jeff here, though in general I do agree that continually bringing up past hurts is counterproductive.

In this case, I took FIB to be trying to explain to his wife why he did not get her anything for V-Day. He compared HIS feelings this year to HER expressed feelings last year. I don't think his intent was to throw anything in her face. I think he was trying to make sure that she understood where HE was right now. And I think he did it by trying to speak HER language.

And while I don't agree with beating people up for past mistakes, ONCE THEY'VE BEEN PUT TO REST, I do think that MANY of us on this board wait WAY too long before we ever speak the TRUTH to our spouses about how much what they do hurts us. Truth, as long as it's not motivated by the desire to bring pain, can not be a bad thing in my opinion.

You left the door open? By setting impossible expectations? By insisting that she knows?

Is it not better to wait and see without requiring they please us?

I do tend to agree with Jeff's comments here. I'm not sure what would possess you to tell XXX explicitly that reconciliation was basically impossible at this point. Unless of course that's how you feel. But then that could have been accomplished much more directly than by what you said.

Later in your post however, you admit to there still being an opening for her. And this is consistent with how I perceive you to feel about things. We know that there is still love for her in your heart, and we know that a divorce is not what you ever wanted for the two of you.

That being said, I think these words are more on the mark..

It isn't huge.
It isn't total submission.

It's something very small...something that ALL OF US..by now...would recognize.

Yes, we all know what that "thing" would be for each of us. And yet we may not be able to be more specific than that. And perhaps that's the problem with trying to share this on this forum. If she would do something that was not motivated by outer appearances and instead showed her inner commitment to trying to rebuild things, I do believe you would know. And I do believe that it would catch your attention.


Finally..

..YOU are so caught up in the anger that you won't at least see that the more you keep beating her up when she tries to treat YOU decently, because you see it as her manipulating you, ...

When we get burned on fidelity issues to the extent that FIB has been burned, it becomes INCREDIBLY difficult to trust again. More than that, it becomes a real challenge to not become cynical in response to just about everything that person does.

I do think this is a problem for you right now FIB. You have not let go of her offenses against you. You still feel them every bit as vividly today as you did when they occured. So how are you working to put those hurts to rest? Are you aware that they are having this significant impact in your dealings with your wife?



So move forward FIB, as you feel you need to. But if you're really allowing that "back door" to remain ajar, you're going to have to clean up some things in your heart. If you really ARE willing to acknowledge an honest effort on her part, you can't be in a state that causes you to see everything she does as manipulative. In the end, any effort she makes must be manipulative in some way, at least to the extent that she would be trying to convince you that she wanted to try to work things out.


What a struggle. I'm sorry it's this hard. But men of integrity will not ease up on holding themselves to the highest standards even as the final acts of the drama unfold. Men of honor, from beginning to end.


Blessings,

Bill

[FaithfulH]

It's not safe to un-detach

Sorry, FIB, you cannot "un-detach" until you first DETACH! I don't believe XXX can do anything to save the marriage...even if she was capable...until you deal with your neediness...clinginess...anger...unforgiveness. Sorry, Brother....I believe this is still just as much about the matters of YOUR heart....as it is about XXX's!

Lots of voices here....I just pray that God's voice is the one you are listening to most.

As the wild sage Forrest Gump said, "That's all I got to say 'bout that!"

[Bworl]

I see no neediness or clinginess. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Clearly there is some anger, as there is in ALL of us who have been betrayed MULTIPLE times by a spouse. I suppose unforgiveness goes along with that.

You make it sound like FIB is the problem here, when that is definitely NOT the case. Don't mistake errors he may make in handling this stage of the ending of their relationship with a crisis on his part. This is HARD. And it's not something that he ever would have WANTED to do. So it's not always handled in the admirable way he or we may like.

I would say you are as detached from XXX as anyone could be. Can't see how anyone could interpret your words any other way. The possible problem is that your detachment also contains some bitterness, which is not unexpected.

Stay strong. Continue to be the man and the rock for you family.

Blessings,

Bill