Won't stand for a broken family

[shannon2011]

TTT,

I had a similar situation in that my H insisted on coming by every day to see the kids and even watched them in our house during the day while I worked. It was so confusing to me to see him interact with me like nothing ever happened, hang out with the kids on the carpet, do the diaper changes and bottles and then-walk out like nothing ever happened. A family but not a family. It was like having a wound reopened every time it happened.

About 4 months in, I insisted that if he wanted to spend more time around the kids he would need to take them out of the house (park, library, etc) and if they needed down time, he would have to take them to where he now lived-a one bedroom apartment down the street. Let me say, he was not happy about this at all. But it was a necessary boundary. Every time he would say "we" instead of me, make an offhand comment about a possible trip or watching a program together, it would seem like we had made progress and then, the next day-WAM-COLD HUSBAND HATH RETURNED.
Once I started setting these boundaries, my PMA dramatically increased. I was able to separate that my H wanted the kids to reconnect with family life, not to reconnect with me. Understanding that distinction made me not jump to any wrong conclusions and allowed me to detach.
I only see my husband now for a few minutes a day during child exchange but it is now H that is trying to stay for a few extra minutes to talk and chat and not me trying to prolong things. It has saved me from initiating any ILY discussions or "what are we doing here". Trust me-I know what you are going through but since I have started setting some boundaries ("you can't drop by unannounced-I am going out tonight", or "you can take them on Saturday but don't worry about dropping by until Monday-kids and I have plans..." things have been 100% better.
Veterans-would love some feedback here but it appears that, like a lot of WAS, he wants the security of the family without the responsibility. Start making yourself less available to the drop bys and hangouts and I think this may be helpful.

Shannon

[Timetotry]

Journaling:

A week has passed since I wrote here and I still don't think I am any closer but I have all positive interactions, consistently everyday.

What other than time will make him realize that he is throwing away a good R? I really thought today there may have been something. We were at D3 dance recital and another group used the song "Isn't she lovely", ironically when we had D1 hed coined that as hers and even used it at her sweet16 party and has said he will use it at her wedding. D1 was mad at him last night and he started to get upset when it played. I asked him what was wrong, he first said nothing, I said the song? He said yes and I rubbed his arm for a minute. D1 was/is the one he is drawn too personality-wise over the years, who he thinks is most like him. Yet, D1 has been almost ignoring him and he has kept distance.

Still no rock bottom for him in the near future. IC asked if I determined a date to act more 'separated' for my own benefit, I said I was thinking 6 months, next month is the goal (especially after reading the Laura Munson story). I don't know if I will go through with it but I am trying to decide if that will change the behavior more than me changing.

I am just so unsure as to what will work for my sitch. Its so hard to detach with him here everyday. IC thinks I am being used to come around and just be at the house and see the kids, so he can avoid his own lonliness. But gives complements, offers to get dinner or asks if I need anything. Who does that who wants a divorce? That will not happen then.

What will make him want to say he is trying or going to try. I feel as if he is to an extent but since the beginning he has always said he doesn't hate me, just isn't happy being married to me.

[Timetotry]

Shannon,

Thanks for your note. I did have that boundary before but I obviously broke it.

Journaling: Today was not what I was expecting...its a long one.

H came over to make breakfast and an hour so later I went shopping for a bit. When I put bags in H's car I found a notebook from work that had a post it note saying "I love you" on one and "thanks for the song, love me" on another. I all the sudden felt what I felt 13 years ago when I caught him having an A. Except this time, no tears, just shaking and impatiently driving home. Came home, took some bags out, he came out to grab more and I brought the notes to his attention.

Me: Are you seeing someone then?
H: No those notes were from awhile ago, forgot they were there.
M: So why then do you have them saved?
H: I said I forgot cause they were put on my desk at work.
M: Ok then so you are coming around to not work on this R, just to use me to see the kids.
H: Yes, I am only coming around to see the kids but I like being here for now.
M: Well, I thought you were trying of sorts so since that is the case you cannot just come over here then.
H: Sorry, wasn't trying to lead you on.
M: Well you did, I was wrong in thinking you were but I know now and you know that you need to leave now.
H: Ok I will.
M: Ok, let me know what day you will be over to cut the grass.
H: Ok.

He came in, grabbed his stuff and the dog and took S to the video game store as planned.

I get a text 30 minutes later:

H: Let me know if you want the details for closure.
M:What details?
H: The timeframe, lead to it,ended it,..whatever.

I met him then and we drove to a nearby park. As he was driving he told me that he had a EA with a consultant at his work and was not planned. He was talking to her as he does to alot of people about his sitch. They went out a few times at lunch and he ended it when I had news that I had a cancer scare. He said he wouldn't do that to the kids and me no matter what and he wasn't looking for a relationship. He said she was hurt and he said that he didn't mean to lead her on, he was vulnerable. H said she works in another building so he rarely sees her now.

We parked because I asked him to stop driving and look me in the eye to talk and he did. Points were as follows:

H does come around for the kids but does enjoy being around me too. H said the sex is purely physical and he could just go anywhere but its not emotional and he won’t do that but he likes it with me. H said he doesn’t want to hurt the kids again, that’s the hardest. I said how counseling suggested the meeting, just us, to get to know each other to see if it would work or not. H still said he is just not ready for that either, whether its to know or not know. H said he wanted to tell me about the emotional affair to be upfront and if I believe or not, there is nothing he said he fears, since I saw the notes he forgot about today. H said that he is already out of the house so before filing just happens out of anger he wanted to clear the air. I agreed and thanked him for telling me and understood how that can happen so easy. H said how he can’t be friends with the opposite sex cause that’s what it seems to lead too. He is just not ready to commit working on the R yet, he doesn’t want to hurt the kids and has to do it for himself. I said well, I have a say in this too and he agreed completely. I said there are no guarantees in life or any relationship. What makes him think a new one would be any different? He said no kids would be involved then. I fhe hurts another girl, he wouldn't care, its all about the kids. (Personally I thought that was mean). He said he knows it’s a risk but he has to do things when he is ready for himself before he can commit. I agreed. H said that SB asked if he was back home last week when on the phone and H said no…knew it! I picked that up I asked him if people are questioning him and he said he just says he is confused. He loves coming over and spending time as a family, including me. I asked him what does he think would change his mind either way? He didn’t know he said. I said again this is what the counselor was eluding too that we must stop avoiding to figure out next step and meet at least once a week without kids. I agreed that there are no guarantees whether it be me with me or someone else and its not just him who has concerns. He thinks we were just existing before and that’s why he left. He said he still isn’t ready to meet that often and when/if he will he will let me know. I just agreed to that then as we had silent pause. I said he can still come back with dinner since that was the plan and he said ok. Seed planted I guess.

When he was leaving immediately after dinner. I called him back to the garage and just said thanks again for being honest with me today. He said oh no problem.

Then Text an hour later from H: I honestly wish I had an answer but I get it totally if you can’t or don’t want to wait. Limbo sux, I get that, and I know you deserve an answer. I’ll do my best to get you that as soon as possible.

H at 8:04 since I didn’t answer: No sound or not talking?

M: No sound (I lied- I honestly wanted time and space to think). Limbo wouldn’t go away if we decide to meet. Its just the initial meetings that was the point and its very awkward for both of us to try to keep an open mind if it goes that route. Neither of us could have that answer right away.

H:I know…I do…I’m not opposed to meeting, just awkward like you said. Will do my best to let you know either way, good or bad, I owe you that.

M:k.

H: Have a good nite. Hope you can sleep.

M: I will. Same to you.

Did what I had to do before the 7/5 date goal, just not planned that way. So proud of myself on how I reacted today. I am second guessing his thoughts on at first leaving and then wanting to give me some details, as if he made up a story?

Then I think, 'from today forward' but the fact that this has happenend twice does sit in my mind.

He had no clear boundaries and neither do I. I am actually questioning if I want to try again.

[shannon2011]

We have the same 6 month deadline-H moved out on 1/5/2011 and it is rapidly approaching.

I have no doubt that he has feelings for you and is confused. But since we take on so much guilt regarding the reasons that the WAS has to exit, we hold on to every gesture, word, or activity that means that they are coming to their senses, are rethinking things, and want to come home. The fact is-he hasn't said what you wanted him to say, that he is ready to try again. I can't imagine what it was like for you to find that note in his vehicle (special hugs for you) but after the conversation that you have had you need to really hear his words.

Right now-he is not interested in pursuing a relationship. If he tries, he is going to do it halfheartedly for other reasons than the fact that you are amazing and he is a fool (family, kids, guilt, etc.) You don't deserve that. You want him back BECAUSE HE WANTS TO COME BACK, otherwise you are going to end up in the exact same place you were prior to him leaving.

Advice from someone who has done all of that....stop thinking about what he wants and start thinking about what you want. No more R talks. Let him initiate R or S/D talks. Don't engage. Let him approach you legitimately about MC if he decides to do that. LET HIM DO THE WORK!

And as far as the other-make the family time more formal. Have him take the kids out-hanging out at the house is confusing and he loves it because he can have a family but go home alone and figure things out. He has to miss something in order to feel pain and, although we don't want to hurt our spouses, the reality is that if you do D, he will not be hanging out at the house.

If you were single right now, what would you be doing? What would it look like to you? I have a three year old and one year old and I am in great spirits, not because I don't miss my H but I can separate the two people....that is what they are right now....the warm, amazing person I married,my confidante and friends vs the man who left a 5 month old baby to find personal happiness....the man who is cold, judgemental, and angry. I have owned up to what I have done, expressed my regrets, validated his concerns but now the focus in on me. The man he is right now is NOT THE PERSON I WANT TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH. And the old marriage is dead.

You have to separate out who he is now from what he was before....do you want to be with him right now the way he is and how he is treating you? Let him go, start detaching, realize he is in a lot of pain and confusion that you can't help him with. Telling him repeated that you want to fix the marriage, that you are there for him, etc is pushing him further away. Let him go and start doing some things for you. Pretend you are single and have a chance to reinvent yourself. What would it look like?

I bet it would be TRULY AMAZING-AS YOU ARE!

Shannon

[Timetotry]

Didn't sleep well at all.

Get a text at 8:45: Just wanted to say good morning.

I text: Good Morning.

Then half hour later he emails my work to say about coming over to discuss D1 college finances tonight. Emails went back and forth, nothing of substance for an hour.

Great, now tonight he swayed his way over.

I don't understand how if someone doesn't want to be married wants to come around like this. Says its just to see the kids and likes being around me but doens't want ot commit. What is that BS?

I am sick of crying again. I was finally going days without it and I have done it non-stop since last night.

This is one f'd up man.

Has anyone out here heard of anything like this?

I can't see my IC till Friday's appt, ugh.

I want to talk about it and get 3rd party feedback.

Anyone out here have anything for me?

[Timetotry]

This evening was not what I expected. I actually feel it was one of the best talks we EVER had.

I asked him after talking about D1 school finances if he could answer some questions for me but if not I understand. He agreed and said he has nothing ot hide from me. We talked about past issues of which we both owned up to our part and were open with answering each other's questions. It wasn't a deep EA, he had no feelings for her and I believe him.

Later I thanked him for talking and we had various texts back and forth. It ended with him saying "Goodnite dear". I said "Good nite dear" back.

I feel as if for whatever reason God had to do this, there was a purpose. This level of peace that I have at this moment is as if he is going to come back at some point.

Now I hope this feeling comes true in time...

[~ kd ~]

Some of the more vocal posters here may say "cake eating".

Still... you could consider this to be his new EA, though. How you choose to see it will be how you play it. It does sound like you have an opportunity to "impress" him. Make him understand the good person you are and know what he'd be missing if he didn't step up to the plate.

IF you are up to it, yourself. And can do it without letting your hopes get up. No tactic. Do it because you WANT to be with him, not as a way to try to get him back. If you aren't in a good place, having him back will not have good results.

[Timetotry]

Thanks Kaffe. I will keep that in mind but he ended it so there is no more EA, so is it still cake eating? Since he told me when it seemed to end the EA when it started going that route in April, he has been around me all the time. I am in a better place and he even says how I am doing all the things he wanted me to do. He even made a comment that I must be doing it 'in spite of him'. I said that its not true but I can't change his reality. I validated and said that there are things I wish I could have done differently.

I am so confused today though. Do I believe him?

When I share my conversation with some friends they all say not to believe him, its not logical. Why would some girl write a note saying "I love you" just as a friend thinking they might get more. He says they never went on a date, just work lunches and never hung out after. He never kissed her, etc. He said he was talking to her as a friend and had no intentions of going further. But really, who does write a note saying that unless there was more to it?

I believed him, it seemed sincere. But was he lying cause deep down he knows that twice is too many for me and the kids would know his ugly side?

It doesn't seem right. Then I question do I just think today forward.

Then I think but let him do this to me three times?

When is enough?

And its amazing to me to think its not a physical thing, always think that's the way men think.

No, I marry the one who says its emotional issues; we have switched roles.

[~ kd ~]

I am using EA in a loose form, perhaps. An EA in this case would be that he is still married (yes, to you) but has seemed to be getting emotional needs met by being with you (the EA).

Yes, it is cake eating to some degree, but if you weren't his W, then it would be cake eating never the less as that is what an A is.

How would you handle this R if he were married to someone else? Or if he wasn't married? Or if you two didn't have history and you actually WANTED to be with this guy?

That's how you should plan your "act as if" around him and this R with him. It might work out really well for you.

[Timetotry]

Been awhile but I need to vent so bad right now.

Pretty much the same the last two weeks, he comes around, everything seems 'smooth and paved' but no committment or R talk.
Even can go as far as we are able to joke and laugh about some things, in my mind, progress. Thinking about the idea of 'tough love' no contact so there is no 'cake eating' but not ready for myself to do that just yet even though I said it 2 weeks ago. He somehow makes excuses to find a way over and says its for the kids.

He emailed this morning asking about D1 birthday dinner tomorrow so we can finalize plans and he made reservations. He asked about the weekend and even said "are we all going to the fireworks?". WE. I was feeling good and he asked me to call. So I did and we had a good convo for 5 minutes and again a few laughs. Had alot more "we" lately.

Tonight I don't know what to think. He called at dinner and D3 talked a few minutes then said how she went to the ortho to fix her hyrax. He said why? She said what I whispered at that time (since it was on speaker)cause mommy said you didn't turn it enough so they had to fix it. He responds "And there is the whole reason why the relationship fell apart in a nutshell. Its all my fault, not Mommy's". I laughed and said "I was only kidding, stop!". He said "No, I will not stop, you don't accept blame ever". I said "Its not yours or my fault, it was the nurse when she was testing it she didn't finish the turn and that's why we both had an issue". He said "D3 I called to talk to you, that's it, take me off of speaker". I then said "Hey fireworks are Friday, not Thursday". H said " Oh, ok that was strange but that makes better sense now". Then D3 finished saying goodbye.

An hour later I text him: "Not sure if you were serious or not earlier and want to apologize if you really were upset. The girl showing me last week didn't turn it all the way and that's why both of us had a hard time turning. Sorry, I didn't mean to get you mad if you were serious, it really wasn't your fault at all".

Never heard from him.

I don't know how to act tomorrow. "As if" or "distant". I can't not go, its D1 birthday.

I also don't know that if something that little is going to effect him in this way if its really worth saving. Its not fair to me. IC says to me again and again, everytime he points something like this out, its not my fault but his personality issue is to bring me down to better himself. I said I wasn't serious and even apologized again. What more can I do? If H refuses to accept that, then its really not worth saving I guess, especially over something as litle as this when he was caught (only admitted so far) to a EA.

So frustrated right now.