Thread 2 - WAW gone again

[GH31]

Good afternoon boys and girls,

It looks like I have been locked out of my old thread so it is time to start with a new one.

You can catch up with my situation in my previous thread.

My situation:
W and I are from Australia and came travelling to Germany last year for some adventure and a change of scene. Stresses of settling in made my latent anger, cruel temper, bitterness and selfishness rear their ugly heads frequently and caused my W a great deal of hurt. She left me and it was defnitely the right thing for her to do. Since then I have been doing whatever it takes to conquer my anger, bitterness and selfishness and to learn as much about marriage and her Love Language (gifts) as possible.

A brief chronology of my trauma:
22nd January 2008 - I sense that we are going to separate as W has been acting very out of character

28th January 2008 - W leaves with her things and writes me a note saying she is "in two minds" about us.

26th February 2008 - I "surprise" her at London Heathrow airport as she is returning from Australia as she told me she was staying with "friends" in the England. She had also complained that I had done nothing to "win her back". I discovered OM was at the airport waiting for her. This OM and W have had and probably continue to have a PA. She is staying/living with him and living out of her suitcases. Financial resources: credit cards.

We have maintained email contact ever since and I have had occasional visits from her to Berlin. Whilst she has not said ILY since 26.02 she has not said anything like ILYBNILWY or "we got married for all the wrong reasons" or "we should never have gotten married" etc. She has not yet asked for a divorce and has even disapproved of me researching Australian annulment and divorce procedures. In fact she has said often "I don't believe in divorce" and "we're destined to be together". Very strange behaviour. She also says that she now has a very low image of me and thinks of me a "monster" or more recently a "bastard".

11th March 2008 - W comes to visit me in Berlin for the day. I am very friendly and detached (my 180) and take her out for a date. We end up kissing passionately and cuddling lots. She says "we're destined to be together", "it's inevitable that we will get back together", "I want you to work things out with me", "I don't want you to be with any other girls but me" gets very upset that I slept with another woman (I was devasted thinking that our marriage was over permanently and made a big mistake), etc. etc. I validate all of her complaints about me in our M as she is 100% correct.

3rd April 2008 - She comes to Berlin again and stays for two nights. Lots of cuddling again and we sleep in the same bed. More fun times and she insists that she is working towards us "getting back together", saying that "it's dangerous for us to be spending all of this time apart as it makes things much harder to retrieve later". W moves lots of her things back to my apartment saying it is her "down payment" and then says she will be back the following weekend "at the latest". Instead of coming back, she flies OM for a dirty weekend to Barcelona.

12th April 2008 - I identify who OM is, his name, address and phone number through snooping.

15th/16th April 2008 - W "breaks up" with OM saying she has "got to go" and writes him a 4 page letter. Apparently he is "crushed".

16th April 2008 - W comes back home to Berlin, bringing what looks like the rest of her stuff. We then go to Estonia for 5 nights at her suggestion saying we need the time to "reconnect". I am very calm and polite throughout the holiday but it is a disaster. Huge waves of fear and resentment come back to haunt my W and she ends up wanting to leave again. I discover that she still has contact with OM through email and SMS and discover that she has still left stuff at his house and has keys to it, she basically lied through her teeth to me and I busted her.

22nd April 2008 - W tells me she "just wants to be friends" at the moment and says that our "reconciliation" was "too much, too soon". She says she is "not ready to get back together yet". Arrive back in Berlin.

23rd April 2008 - Berlin. We wake up in the morning and she is still full of fear, resentment and deep mistrust towards me. Says "If I stayed it would be because it's what you want and not what I want and that's not right". Says later that she needs to leave again to "find herself", "reflect" and "work on her feelings". She also says she wants to see a mutual friend of ours in the UK and to travel "alone" to Austria. Then she says that "she needs to determine if OM is the one, but that I think I am destined to hurt him". I caress and massage her head for 90 minutes and make her feel much much better. Later in the evening I begin to detach and be very cheerful and then W warms to me. We play pool, have fun then end up kissing passionately.

24th April 2008 - W wakes up feeling happy, I massage her and we end up making love. It's very passionate but it ends up making her scared and negative again. I find her packing her bags and it turns out she booked a flight back to OM the previous day which was to leave that day. She later changes her flight so she can help me pack everything to ship back to Australia. We pack everything then go out for a walk to the beautiful sites of Berlin. She says "we are destined to be together", "I always find my way back to you GH31" and "GH31 I want you to kiss my life better". I also hear "I'm not dating anyone at the moment" and "go and wait for me like a good husband should". End up kissing again.

25th April 2008 - She goes back to UK and to OM's house, saying that she needs to ship the things that she has there and "tie up loose ends". I lose it with her at the airport saying I feel lied to, deceived, cheated, betrayed, used, pissed and shat upon, and that her situation is "an affair dressed up as a separation". I confront her and get her to admit that she is still vacillating between me and OM. She admits she needs to take a "leap of faith" to make things work again and talks about future plans and dreams for "our" future. Also says "OM has done everything right", "has done nothing wrong" and "is a lovely man" despite saying that he offended her the previous day and that he is "not very ambitious". At the airport she tells me that on Sunday 27th April 2008 she will have reached a "final decision" on our future together after I tell her I want no contact until she knows she is 0% committed or 100% committed.

I will write about what's happened subsequently in the next post.

GH31

[GH31]

Instead of my W calling me this morning with a "final answer" about us, I receive the following SMS, no phone call as agreed:

I have been thinking about things and the best I can commit to is Brighton on 12th May [if I take the Munich job I will need to train for a week there] otherwise I just meet you in Sydney.

In other words, no "golden word" or decision, and buying more time to be with OM and "find herself". I called her back and left a message (I now have her UK cell number) and said in a very compassionate voice that I am going back to Sydney to stay with her dad and that I have confirmed this with him. I said it's best that she take more time to reflect and that these things happen on their own timetable unfortunately - there's nothing any of us can do do rush these things. I wished her well and said I hope she felt better and clearer in body and soul before too long.

So that is it. I have made the decision to go back to Australia tomorrow as the job I had in Berlin was terrible and I don't have the strength to go to a brand new city (Munich) and take it on alone. Also, my W has strung me along with timeframes, lied to me and willfully deceived me so many times now that I simply don't believe she will show up in Brighton on 12th May as she says. Her brain is producing a load of chemicals which prevent her from making any clear and responsible decisions for her life. She is so confused that it is heartbreaking to see but there is nothing that I can do other than be compassionate and a good friend to her. She has no respect for me she says, even though I am her "bestest friend" and uses this as justification for lying to me and deceiving me. She is scared I will do terrible things again and I totally understand this. I have done awful things like created angry scenes in public, grabbed her arm when she tried to walk off, said very veneomous things, not been there for her when we experienced two miscarriages etc.

So, guys I am at a loss as to what to do. I really am. If I go to Munich I am sure I will be deceived and stuffed around again and that W will continue to vacillate. If I go to Sydney I may lose her forever but she has said in addition to the Munich plan "Go and relax in Sydney. It will be the best place for us to reconcile" and "if I come back to Sydney it will be to reconcile and to reunite my family". I know she is very close to her family and that it will only be a matter of time before she comes back, but under what circumstances? She is very close to her Dad and has had no contact with him since 26th February 2008. He is very upset about this. She has also been very secretive with her family and they had to force answers out of her when she was leaving for England before they knew what was going on.

Am I making the right decision? Should I hang aroung in Munich in the hope we can work things out even though I am sure my W's brain is incapable of reaching responsible decisions? I am thinking of writing to her at OM's house lovingly saying that I want no more contact until she knows 100% or 0% whether she wants us to have a future together. I am hurting so bad and wanting this chaos to end. In some ways it would be better if she said it really was over before, and I have asked her "why can't we just accept that what we had was wonderful but that it is over now" and all I get is "it doesn't feel like it's the end" etc.

Please help guys, I am despairing here.

[Sara]

GH31,

I think you need to "get a life". The vagabond stage for both of you is not good. You need to choose a place, get a job there, meet people, find your happiness within yourself. She will probably come along and mess it up, because she is not willing to go without your attention. But that doesn't mean that it is good for you. Your wife is enjoying being wanted by 2 men. She is not likely to want to give that up. And there is always the risk that even if this OM goes away, that she will start up with another. It seems to me that your only choice is to go along in your life without her. Depending on where you are the next time she comes back, you may or may not be willing to give up what you have going on to accomodate her.

[sandi2]

Hi GH31, I was almost a WAW. After reading your post, I can tell that my lifestyle is quite different from yours b/c I am not able to travel to the places that you have mentioned. Our finances are such that we don't even get a vacation to go some place within our state. However, pain is pain regardless of where one lives or what financial class one has. Affairs happen with people from all walks of life. They happen within some of the most religious families and the most non-religious. Therefore, I will tell you what I feel based upon the fact that I was almost a WAW and I did have an EA with a man and was very close to having a PA with him. I was raised and have lived in a very strict and religious environment. I have been married to the same man for many years and never thought about being unfaithful. But things happen to people that is hard to understand.

When your wife says she needs to find herself.....it may sound like an excuse or just another lie to you in order to buy her more time with the OM......and it may very well be true. However, the truth may be that she really is very confused and she doesn't know which one of you that she wants to spend her life with. There is something about this OM that she can't seem to let go of.......and yet she keeps going back to you. So, she is torn.

You are correct when you said that we cannot put a "time" on these matters. We cannot say that I will let you know my decision by a date on a calendar. She may try to turn the right direction, but unless the heart is willing to let go of what she has continued to cling to (the OM), it will not work.....and that is what you know. You are also correct in the way you described the chemicals in her mind/body. I did not realize that could happen to a person and would give them that excited, sexual, "in-love" feeling that is very addictive. It is so addictive until you want to keep going back for more. That is why it is very hard for her to stick to her "good-byes" to the OM after making them.

It appears from your post here, that she seems to be making plans as to what you need to do next. What I am about to say is not to be offensive at all. I realize that when we live in different countries, we don't always communicate in the same way, so please do not be offended when I say that she is acting like she is trying to be the boss of the home. I believe that couples should be equal in everything, but in marriage if the man allows the woman to map out all the plans as to what will be done and not to be done, and she is basically telling him what to do.....she will lose respect for him. When there are problems such as yours where the H is wanting to save his M, it makes it very difficult for him to know what to do. I personally feel that you have tried to be patient and you certainly have given her freedom to go and come as she wanted. You have given her time and space.....and now, she is wanting more time. But, she also has the nerve to tell you not to be with other women while she is with her other man! Therefore, I believe it is time to step up and be what is known as the "alpha male" with this woman b/c I think that is what she needs in order to respect you as a H and as a lover.

You said:

I am thinking of writing to her at OM's house lovingly saying that I want no more contact until she knows 100% or 0% whether she wants us to have a future together. I am hurting so bad and wanting this chaos to end.

Unless I misunderstood, I thought you had already told her that when you said you would go back to stay with her father. If you have given her that information once.....then you do not need to tell her again. Because it will make you appear needy. She thinks you are clinging to her and that is not attractive to her. Therefore, I would not contact her again......and certainly not at the OM address. For one thing, if the OM intercepted the letter, she would probably never see it. But, the point is that you need to become a man that she sees as strong, independent of her, and very attractive. I think if she thought you were unavailable to her, she would leave the OM and come running home to you. Perhaps not overnight, but in time. I am not suggesting that you find another lover.....not at all. That only causes more problems. However, I am advising you to get a life that you are happy with and become the man you like and focus on those things and communicate with her only if she calls you first, and then you say good-bye first...before she does. That is an old fashion custom of "playing hard to get"! Not only do you need to detach, but you need to completely go "dark". No communication, from you first, unless it is an emergency. I was not clear as to why you would go to stay with her father, however, if you still decide to do that, she will hear how you are progressing through conversations with her father. If I were you, I would make it a point to be too busy or gone when she called. If you were to talk to her, I would be polite, do not point out all the things you have been doing (hoping to get her attention that way), and do not bring up the M or the R. If she does, I would just listen to her and unless she has definitely given up the OM, I would just tell her that there is no future with the three of you. If she wants a future with you, she must cut off the OM, then she needs to realize that she will go through a difficult time of grieving over the OM before she is ready to be your W again. As to how long that will take varies with individuals. How you want to work it out is strictly your business. I do believe in Michelle's DR techniques. If you have her book and follow it, I think that will be your best chance at keeping you M in the long run of things. If you don't have it, please order it right away.

Good luck to you. Let us hear how you are doing.

Sandi

[GH31]

Hello Sandi and Sara,

Very nice of you two ladies to give me some pointers.

Sandi, thank you especially for the length of your input and for taking the time. I find your insight extremely valuable and informative, same as yours too Sara.

I guess the problem in our M was that I was very much the alpha male to a fault. I was selfish, did my own thing, would not be bossed around or told what to do. I am also 6'4" tall and my wife has always said how "masculine" I am so our sex life was never a problem. However, part of my "sexy jerk" personality was a very cruel temper and a serpent tongue. I was verbally abusive and this used to stress and hurt my W terribly. I also used to rant and complain a lot. She still finds me masculine and attractive even though we are separated which is probably why we ML when she stayed for 9 days but she is also very scared of me being a jerk again and this stresses her. I have worked very hard over the past three months to get rid of my anger, bitterness and cruelty and replace it with love and compassion but W still has a very bad image of me as a person. Being compassionate and accommodating is actually a BIG 180 for me.

Whilst she says we have always been "very close", that we "have something really unique and special" and that I am "wonderfully affectionate and attentive", she says OM is very relaxed, a lovely guy, has a great family (W hates my parents because they sent me to boarding school, hence my issues), generous and accommodating. Everything that I wasn't in other words. He is also totally besotted with her and doesn't want me having any contact with her - he would marry her he said and said this after a few weeks of knowing her.

I am of the opinion that this is an A dressed up as a separation. She cannot seem to let go of me and gets upset when I speak of the future with a different wife in it but she won't get rid of OM. She always speaks about reconciliation but lies and deceives at the same time and we live in different countries. I spoke to W's sister in Australia today and she said W really felt she had to work on the marriage as it was the "right thing to do" amongst other reasons but that she's in love with OM. She has referred to him as her "special person", something she always did with me before.

Therefore, I feel as if I have no choice but to go completely dark. What other alternatives are left? I must separate myself from this chaos and get some order back in my life. I will go back to Sydney as it's where my friends and business contacts are and it will be the easiest place for me to get a life, earn money and have lots more human contact. I know very few people here in Germany and am hardly feeling sociable right now.

I have told her that I am making a new life for myself and that I don't necessarily believe that she will be a part of it (which she hates). GAL will be the easiest to do there, as will any future reconciliation. About "going dark" - I found that my W was very receptive when I went dark before but as soon as she actually came to do the "reconciliation" she ran off again. I don't think I could have prevented that in any case but if she wants to give it another try I will be far more cautious and will want proof that she means business, like a letter to OM telling him that's it. I have respectfully but firmly stated my boundaries.

This is strange, I gave her my wedding ring back when I discovered OM which made her very sad, but when she stayed she hid it in my toiletries bag. I said to take it back but she said "you'll be needing this in Munich in a few weeks when we get back together". Then after she left I found she had hidden it in my suitcase. Odd - it must be the chemicals making her say all this confusing babble and do very bizarre things.

Sandi, the reason I am going to her Dad's house is he lived with us there for 5 years so it is still our home. All of my stuff is there and I have always gotten on very well with her Dad. He will be pleased to see me too. She has not spoken to her Dad for 2 months and has had very little contact with her family in Australia (she is staying with OM in UK), as she doesn't want to face the "barrage of questions". Why can't she just shout this true love from the rooftops then?? Also, If this works out all for the worst I will have easy access to my belongings and can move it all out - either way I have to be in Sydney. That's not the outcome I want but I do accept that I have to build my own life again with or without her.

Thanks very much to both of you. If you have any more advice then I would love to hear it.

best,

GH31

[GH31]

I received the following two SMSs from W this morning:

I think you are crazy for flying back to Australia today. Europe is so much better

and

I am bound to come back to you some day I just need to get over the resentment I have for you.

I replied saying that this chaos had to stop and that I wanted order back in my life again. You had said you would give me an answer about us on Sunday and the goalposts have been moved again. You are perfectly entitled to resent me and be wary of me and I hope that it's something that can be overcome with time, whether we are together or not. None of us know if or when we will earnestly reconcile so it is for the best if we live independent lives for now and reflect further.

Guys, I do not want a divorce - I don't believe in it - and she doesn't seem to either, but I sure as hell don't want to live with this chaos and vacillation either. I simply will not. These SMSs are excuses to buy more time to weigh me up against OM and as far as I am concerned she can have as much time as she wants. Meanwhile, I am building a new life for myself with or without her.

I hope I am doing the right thing by going back to Australia today. I must admit I do have doubts but my instinct tells me it is for the best. I can always come back to Europe once I have healed myself and, if Providence wills it, reconciled with W. At the moment W is more preoccupied with trips in Europe and OM than with saving our M and nothing anyone says will make a blind bit of difference. Those chemicals and neurotransmitters have hijacked her brain for the time being.

best,

GH31

[sandi2]

GH31, you sound very stong and realistic. I pray that she will comes to her senses soon. But as said previously, these things cannot be marked on a calendar. I personally think you are doing the right thing. I know it doesn't stop the pain nor the love you have for her, but you are making the right move in MHO.

Keep DB's and GAL. You must act as if you will be fine with or without her in your life. Right now, you are certainly talking the talk. I know the walk will be harder. We are still here when you need someone to talk to.

Good luck and take care of yourself.

Sandi

[saffie]

Be true to yourself GH

[GH31]

Thanks for your support guys.

I must admit, I am on the way back to Australia at the moment and feel a sense of overwhelming sadness. She SMSed me saying have a safe trip and I SMSed back 2 hours later saying simply thanks.

God this is tough. It would be easier if she had just said it"s over permanently, but this vacillation is killing me.

[Phoenixdeux]

GH31,

It sounds to me that the only reason you doubt your decision is because of her. You can't build your life around what she perceives that she wants. She probably doesn't know what she wants...except maybe to live a carefree life without any obligations.

Someone once asked me, "If she moved, would you consider moving also to be closer?" My answer then was, "No". I had (and still have) my ducks in a row where I'm at. Just like me, you have to consider what's best for YOU, because she really doesn't have any stability to offer you at the moment. So make the most of your life, without her, and perhaps when she works through this, and if you still want her, you will have an awesome life with you to offer her.

Good luck