(Mojo) It was just kind of confusing because he was saying that he wanted to commit to a relationship before we had even met in person so I, of course, indicated that I thought that was crazy and didn't take him seriously.
Do you now take that seriously and believe he wanted to commit to a relationship before you had even met in person? If so, what do you think about that?
On a separate note, you don't seem to really know what you want from a relationship right now and you've gotten involved with men who know *exactly* what they want from a relationship and they take you directly to that place. When you get to that place, you're like, "I like you and I like being with you and I enjoyed the journey here and I like this place but I don't know if it's what I want because I'm not exactly positive what it is that I want."
And that doesn't seem to really satisfy GP or FSG. That's their issue, but don't let them think you want something just because you're not sure that you *don't* want it.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Are you seriously suggesting that I get back together with a man who is currently living in an efficiency apartment on the street where the hookers work in Denver, making $7 an hour, not paying child support, not talking to either of his parents, almost certainly drinking too much and not taking the ADs a slew of psychiatrists agreed he was in need of.. the man with whom I had sex 3x in the same week maybe 3x in the whole course of our marriage?
Still don’t think you have issues to settle with this man? Maybe not him per se, but with men in general, your exH being the poor example that you had to get stuck with as representative of males. But then, you had as much choice in selecting him as he. So why are you SOOOO angry about him???? Can’t you see that the same issues that make you mad toward your exH are basically the same issues that get you upset with these other men? Great sex with them or poor sex with your exH have NOTHING to do with it.
There's this terrible calculation that goes on in my head that goes something like: I feel loved when I get physical touch (sexual or affectionate). Men want to physically touch me when I look attractive. I look attractive when I spend $50 on a good bra and spend an hour I could be working primping for a date.
Why in the world, with all the discussion that has gone on this board and all the reading you have done, do you still base your sense of self on the acceptance or rejection of your sexuality by men? The more you try to get men to like you sexually, the more they will disrespect you. You have trapped yourself into your own negative self-reinforcing cycle, one that can be very destructive and to which I can see no positive solution.
I mentioned a long time ago that you were trying to find yourself, and I think you are still on that path. No man, no matter how considerate, caring, loving, sexually compatible, wealthy, etc., is going to be able to do this for you. The very fact that you would even consider finding such an answer though someone else is still a form of avoidance and not assuming your own responsibility and power. Even such things as blaming yourself or calling yourself a moron are ways of avoidance.
That guy told you exactly where he stood with women and exactly what he wants. He can make decisions and stand by them or he never would have become successful. My money says that he told you what he needed to say to get you to come see him so he could make his own evaluation, plus have a good time to boot. For whatever reason you did not fit his ideal. So what? Do you really think there is some guy out there who is really going to fall head over heels in love with you and worship the ground you walk on?
I’m not trying to be mean, but you really need to get a reality check. The only way I see you doing that is to get to the heart of that “terrible calculation” that goes on in your head and reprogram the circuit that says you only feel love when you feel touched. THAT is where your problem lies, not with the men you are dating. That was your half of your problem in your marriage too (we all know your exH had his own boatload of issues). Address the childhood sexual molestation/abuse issue and lay that demon to rest once and for all. Once you can find peace there, I think you will find peace and love elsewhere. My 2 cents.
I always enjoy your posts Cobra. I think you are probably going down the right path with that last post to MJ.
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Still don’t think you have issues to settle with this man? Maybe not him per se, but with men in general, your exH being the poor example that you had to get stuck with as representative of males. But then, you had as much choice in selecting him as he. So why are you SOOOO angry about him???? Can’t you see that the same issues that make you mad toward your exH are basically the same issues that get you upset with these other men? Great sex with them or poor sex with your exH have NOTHING to do with it.
I think you are way to fragile right now to be even considering a R MJ. None of your problems are these other men. They are just complicating your own issues. You are angry at yourself and clearly have major self-esteem issues. I really think you should take some time away from Match and wherever else you are meeting these men and just learn to like yourself. Sounds cheesy but in the long-run, I think you will be better off.
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Why in the world, with all the discussion that has gone on this board and all the reading you have done, do you still base your sense of self on the acceptance or rejection of your sexuality by men?
I'll ditto that. And trust me, I'm not very different than you MJ. I have had my share of being way too overtly sexual and it almost always backfires. And that's even with my own H sometimes. In a new R?! Forget it. I don't think you are taking the right approach here. The "freak" comments are being said by All of these men for a reason MJ. And I've been called a freak myself. It not a compliment, as much as I want to take it that way.
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The more you try to get men to like you sexually, the more they will disrespect you. You have trapped yourself into your own negative self-reinforcing cycle, one that can be very destructive and to which I can see no positive solution.
This is a good point. Leading with your sexuality is Not a very smart thing for a woman to do. Whether that is right or wrong is not the issue. That is reality. Men will not respect it. Period.
You've got plenty of other strengths MJ (as do I). You don't need to parade your sexuality around for all the world to see. You are smart, funny....just a nice person. Go with that for a while and see what happens.
you don't seem to really know what you want from a relationship right now and you've gotten involved with men who know *exactly* what they want from a relationship and they take you directly to that place. When you get to that place, you're like, "I like you and I like being with you and I enjoyed the journey here and I like this place but I don't know if it's what I want because I'm not exactly positive what it is that I want."
I think this is exactly right on the money!
Mojo, I think your task at the moment is to focus on yourself and get very okay with you BEING okay when a man is not sexually validating you.
When you talk about yourself on this BB you focus on your HDness and sexual experience/prowess in a way that makes me think that YOU think that is the best and most attractive part of you.
"All a man has to do is touch me and breathe on my neck and I fall down with my legs spread." Okay... that's good...but what does that MEAN to you? Do you think that's what men find most attractive about you? If you start out that way, how will a man ever discover your pilgrim soul?
I'm even going to go so far as to suggest that you tone yourself down sexually (EXTERNALLY-- in appearance, speech, behavior) just so you can see what other Mojo-qualities bubble up to the surface. Like someone who has mastered the violin, knows she can do it, has played Carnegie Hall, and now wants to learn glass blowing, or dog grooming, or stilt-walking. You KNOW you love sex, you love relating sexually (and WE know it, too!), but what ELSE is there to you???
I believe that sexuality is most meaningful when shared in a deeply intimate situation. That's why even my best lover and I did not have the best time possible, because I could never honestly say ILY to him while we were in the throes.
The way you're going at this is leaving you beat up emotionally and I hate to see that. It's painful to those of us who care about you (and we really do!).
Dunno about you, Cobra, but I chose my flings with a lot less care than a life partner, back in the single days. A "fling" which leaves you pregnant and determined to do right by that kid is hardly indicative of who either of them would have chosen had that not happened. Almost certainly not each other. Nor have I gotten any vibe, ever, that Mojo is a sexual abuse survivor. Either I totally missed it or it's just not there.
I wouldn't have gone out with any of the guys Mojo's been dating recently but I don't find it hard to believe she's simply HD, just got out of a sexual starvation diet, and is trying to find out what she wants. Bound to be some ups and downs. *shrugs*
You are really continuing to mis-read me. Where did you get the idea that I was sexually abused or molested as a child? All I meant when I said I felt loved when touched was that my primary LL is physical touch, like a great many other people. I actually think one of my areas of growth since my split is that I have been recognizing more consciously the extent to which I appreciate affectionate as well as sexual touch. That is why I now say that what I want is "affectionate manhandling" which encompasses sex but is not limited to sex. I also understand that people who are uncomfortable with affectionate touch view my liking of it as "weak" or "needy" but I don't give a fig. I do also appreciate WOA, AOS, QT and even gifts so it's not like I'm locked up in that quadrant. Sometimes I feel like you are a visitor to this BB from the 1950s who hasn't read anything past Freud with your FOO fixation.
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That guy told you exactly where he stood with women and exactly what he wants. He can make decisions and stand by them or he never would have become successful. My money says that he told you what he needed to say to get you to come see him so he could make his own evaluation, plus have a good time to boot. For whatever reason you did not fit his ideal. So what? Do you really think there is some guy out there who is really going to fall head over heels in love with you and worship the ground you walk on?
I don't know where you got the idea that FSG rejected me. The disagreement we had was because he took me to task for being LD about calling him on the phone. He was feeling rejected and I felt bad about that because I like him and I want to be a nice person. "I" have issues with being a "freak". He doesn't have issues with me being a "freak". He wasn't complimenting me by saying that but he wasn't insulting me either. My problem is that I took it as an insult. The reason he said he was going to keep teasing me about it is that there is nothing wrong with really liking sex. YOU are the one who doesn't respect women who are sexual.
The cynicism I expressed in my "terrible calculation" was based more on the science and theory expressed in dating/mating books written by male relationship experts that I've been reading recently than anything in my own experience (although I have found little contradiction). For instance, it really is a provable fact that men "fall in love" with a "pretty" face. So what? Most men aren't even self-aware about these kinds of things in the same way that most women aren't self-aware about their monkey desire for the wolf. When we were debating the issue previously, you indicated that you would never bring the Julia Roberts character from "Pretty Woman" home to meet your Momma. The reason you are wrong about that is that you are not recognizing that in addition to having a multi-million dollar "pretty' face, Julia played a woman with a very "pretty" manner in that movie. As my Momma sometimes said "Pretty is as pretty does." but if a guy can only equate pretty behavior with the behavior of the bunny who always keeps her knees politely together so that nobody can see her panties, he's not very integrated and he's unlikely to be able to love and desire the same woman.
P.S. I was vibing "angry' about my 2bx because seeing my son the other day and how he has matured made me realize that my 2bx was a very poor male role model and that made me angry about the fact that I stayed with him for the "good" of the children.
Last edited by MJontheMend; 02/16/0806:46 PM.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I wouldn't have gone out with any of the guys Mojo's been dating recently but I don't find it hard to believe she's simply HD, just got out of a sexual starvation diet, and is trying to find out what she wants. Bound to be some ups and downs. *shrugs*
Thanks,
Sometimes I think that the members of this BB except me and maybe BB and BF live in Amish villages without even television sets. Pretty much I am doing exactly what most single women my age with approximately my personality type do. I'm not about to hang out at bars looking for one night stands but I'm not going to stay celibate until I meet just the perfect member of the male population to spend the rest of my life with either. It's okay if I muck around a bit for a while.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Do you now take that seriously and believe he wanted to commit to a relationship before you had even met in person? If so, what do you think about that?
I have empathy for the fact that the way men generally operate is that they accumulate a certain amount of experience/money/success and then they decide that they want to settle down. Then they are in a very vulnerable position because they usually "fall in love" with the first reasonably high status/ desirable female that they find. The thing that kind of freaks me out is that most of the men who find me desirable have some specific characteristics in common. For instance, when I was on the plane the other day, the guy I was sitting next to was obviously interested/flirtatious to the extent that a married stranger will express such a thing. I was thinking it was odd because he looked like a skinny WASP and he had just run a marathon (type that wouldn't like me.) Then later in the convo he revealed that he was Italian and he was a contractor who owned his own building company. BINGO!
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On a separate note, you don't seem to really know what you want from a relationship right now and you've gotten involved with men who know *exactly* what they want from a relationship and they take you directly to that place. When you get to that place, you're like, "I like you and I like being with you and I enjoyed the journey here and I like this place but I don't know if it's what I want because I'm not exactly positive what it is that I want."
Very true. I may be wrong but I think this mostly has to do with the fact that I am still weak in my lioness quadrant. Understand that I don't mean to say that I am inherently weak in that quadrant but rather that something has happened like there was a fire and famine on her usual hunting grounds and she has been wandering about without clear direction but knowledge that she better find a new one. Therefore, I get to a certain point in a relationship and I find myself unable to make judgments about men. Simple example would be I couldn't figure out whether the fact that GP was a semi-professional gambler bothered me because I haven't figured out my own financial situation/values post-divorce. It's kind of like you said you came to the realization that you are a relatively messy person whether or not you are in a relationship with a neatnik. When I say that I'm a freak (with pride-lol) I mean that I am my own special kind of HD whether or not I'm in a relationship with somebody LD. FSG is definitely HD. The two of us bickering about who is a freak and who is a complete maniac is just like two drunks bickering about who finished off the case of beer.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
(Mojo) I have empathy for the fact that the way men generally operate is that they accumulate a certain amount of experience/money/success and then they decide that they want to settle down.
I have empathy for that as well. I have a tremendous amount of empathy for Nice Guys. I can emphathize with your STBX (where, as in my case, the S stands for "someday").
Doesn't mean I'd recommend you dating anybody from that group.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Where did you get the idea that I was sexually abused or molested as a child?
IMO you very clearly have some sort of sexual abuse issues. That does not mean you were necessarily molested by someone, but you were clearly modeled with inappropriate behavior, namely by your mother. For whatever reason, you started having sex at an early age and, I think, saw it as a way to gain acceptance with men, just as you mother modeled. But you are smart enough to know that society tends to frown on such behavior, so you became the eccentric rebel type.
Nothing wrong with any of that, if that is truly who you are. But I don’t think that is who you are. You want more. You want to be successful, you want a well-to-do, secure H, a good father for your kids, a devoted H. You act one way (sexually promiscuous) but you want something else. Which is the real you?
I don’t think you are any different from any one else on this board. T do think you have some issue surrounding how you gain acceptance in society. And it comes from your FOO. Regardless of how far psychology has advance, ALL major issues stem from FOO, hence my focus on it until that particular issue is identified and addressed.
You CHOSE your exH. Getting pregnant may have been an accident, but you being with him was not. He was a sort of rebel in his own right, wasn’t he? Why did you choose him? Why do you choose a semi-famous musician, or an ex-Parliament musician, or an independently wealthy workaholic? I’m not denigrating any of these men for what they are but asking whether it is a certain perception of the “rebel” that you see in them that attracts you? That shifts the equation into your court. I see it as an issue just as Burg points out in his question to you. If the “rebel” is truly who you are and what you want, then why don’t you take it when you have it?
Corri made some point points a while back when she was discussing what a person wants, rather than defining him/herself as what s/he does not want. Could some of that be coming to the surface now? Do you really want to be the sexual tigress that your mother modeled, or do you really just want to be accepted and loved? If the later, does being sexually assertive get you where you want to be?
Even though men will always jump on a good time and lots of free sex if given the chance, momma’s voice will still be in the back of their mind. And if not that voice, then maybe instead the voice of his kids when he has to introduce this new woman to his sons and daughters, to whom this man probably gave lectures about who those kids should be bringing home.
Everyone wants to be a rebel in one way or another, but isn’t that just a passive aggressive way of expressing some form of hurt? Isn’t all that just a way of trying to find acceptance. Didn’t James Dean just want to be accepted (at least the image he portrayed)? Was he really even a rebel at all? I’ve said it before, the words of Dirty Harry are appropriate: “A man’s got to know his limitations.” So do women. Isn’t that what all this self-help, psycho-babble all about?
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The cynicism I expressed in my "terrible calculation" was based more on the science and theory expressed in dating/mating books written by male relationship experts that I've been reading recently than anything in my own experience (although I have found little contradiction). For instance, it really is a provable fact that men "fall in love" with a "pretty" face. So what? Most men aren't even self-aware about these kinds of things in the same way that most women aren't self-aware about their monkey desire for the wolf.
I really have no idea where you are going with this or any of the other discussions regarding animal characteristics. Over the past few months it seems you have been trying to piece together a very convoluted self-justification for why you need and want lots of sex, why you should be attractive for men, and if not why those men have some repressed problem they are not willing to face. Here’s another example of that:
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As my Momma sometimes said "Pretty is as pretty does." but if a guy can only equate pretty behavior with the behavior of the bunny who always keeps her knees politely together so that nobody can see her panties, he's not very integrated and he's unlikely to be able to love and desire the same woman.
Whatever. You’re only fooling yourself. If you were not deceiving yourself, the comments about you being a “freak” would not have phased you. Why is it that those men aren’t the ones who are in some sort of denial, are repressed, are emotionally immature, are the morons, and on and on. Why did YOU break down and cry?
[quote]I'm not about to hang out at bars looking for one night stands but I'm not going to stay celibate until I meet just the perfect member of the male population to spend the rest of my life with either. It's okay if I muck around a bit for a while.[\quote]
I agree with this. So you did you get upset and cry?
[quote]I have empathy for the fact that the way men generally operate is that they accumulate a certain amount of experience/money/success and then they decide that they want to settle down. Then they are in a very vulnerable position because they usually "fall in love" with the first reasonably high status/ desirable female that they find.[\quote]
So what are you saying? Do you think you are being a “savior” of some sort by giving these types of men sex, and that they should be grateful to you for doing so, or that you somehow gain the one “one up” position by doing so? Could it be that if you could get to such a position, you would be safe – safe because this needy man, to whom you feel empathy, will not want to ever leave you? If that is so, then for whom are you doing the favor – him or you? How is any of this not a higher, more convoluted, more twisted form of playing martyr?
