Quote: They also say that when exposed in infancy to the sounds of a language, they retain the ability to distinguish those sounds throughout their lives, making it easier for them to "relearn" the language at an older age. Your kids will be able to speak Gaelic at some point if they want to, apparently with little or no accent. Were you brought up speaking it from birth?
Exposure to the sounds is important. I remember working to "get" certain sounds. I have heard from native speakers that I don't have an "American accent." My Russian teacher last year said I had good pronunciation, too, so I guess that work pays off. Irish has more sounds and fewer letters than English, so the written words can look formidable to beginners. Thankfully the spelling is much more predictable than in English.
I learned Irish as an adult and I am not yet a fluent speaker. That was something I fell away from during the M. STBXW never participated in any of "the Irish stuff," wouldn't even join me and the kids at Christmas parties, despite having some Irish ancestry (and some Scottish, too) herself.
Quote: it's getting really hard to deal with my own stress (alone) while listening to S.'s (which is directed at me).
It's a big change coming for both of you, and maybe he's not as prepared as (or is preparing differently than) you. I looked forward to becoming a father. Having a family was part of the reason I wanted to marry. Maybe S is still working through what it will mean to him, and the stress comes out to you. You at least have us online and "real world" friends like H2H. I get the impression his 20 something crowd isn't going to be the right place for him to get support and validation while he adjusts to the idea of parenthood.
Hang in there. You're doing great.
Thanks,
K
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
Quote: Honestly, I've been the model of listening and validating lately (makes me wonder who's been slipping me the pills), and being careful not to put undue stress on S., and it's getting really hard to deal with my own stress (alone) while listening to S.'s (which is directed at me). Rant over.
Sigh, I remember feeling that way. It was too often for my liking. I wonder if some of what ails me now isn't a result of post-divorce nausea from stuffing all of it in for so long? For not being able to voice an opinion or feelings to the person who seemed to hurt me continually and the most often?
I tell ya, a steady diet of that is NOT good for a person. And if I were pregnant? I know I'd have been a sick pup. Actually, I was a sick pregnant pup, so I can't imagine doing it with R stress in it. My hat is off to you, friend.
Be nice to yourself, okay? And if S doesn't start being nice to you, my next plane trip will be to NY and I'll let the air out of my tires on him.
Big hugs!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: Be nice to yourself, okay? And if S doesn't start being nice to you, my next plane trip will be to NY and I'll let the air out of my tires on him.
This may sound corny, but has S ever looked at R websites. Fortunately, I'm sure he wouldn't be looking up Divorce Busting, but would something like Marriagebuilders.com be worthwhile for him--especially the Policy of Joint Agreement (you may want to look at it yourself).
I just get the sense that if he can start reading about other people and R's that sound so much like his own experperiences and perceptions, he may be more open and receptive to making changes in his own life. I'll bet at some level he may feel he's the only one experiencing what he is going through now and a bombardment of similar stories from others may give him a better intellectual grounding to be more solution oriented and have a better appreciation of how our actions impact our R's with others (Of course, he may in fact be the only man having a baby with a girl who is pursuing a divorce from the gay guy she married for reasons other than living the remainder of their days together ). But apart from the slight detour, is there merit here?
My ongoing prayers are with you--and H2H as well for good measure!
Thank you, friends, for your thoughtful posts. Unfortunately, circumstances have made it impossible for me to focus on them and respond in the way I had been thinking before the latest update. Maybe I’ll find the wherewithal to get back to them, maybe not. Please don’t think I’m ignoring your insights – I’m not; I’m just whirling with new data at the moment:
SM called on Sunday night while S. was over working on the house. S. picked up the phone and talked to her for two hours. He came home and immediately told me she’d called. He looked horrible, distressed - he had had a few beers before she called (with a friend who had come to help work on the house). He told me the following: He told her about us, about the baby, that he was happy about becoming a father, that we were moving in together. He also told her he was unhappy with me.
I asked him what she said. Her reaction, according to him? He said, “In the end, she said, ‘I’m sorry things aren’t better.’” For some reason, he also found it necessary to share with her our agreement that he not contact her. He told her it was because she had “been an issue” in our R, that we were working on it in T. He told me, “She had an issue with an agreement not to talk to somebody.” I said “Well, that’s really none of her business. She doesn’t realize why we might have that agreement, that stopping contact with the affair partner is part of the healing process in a R after infidelity.” He said, “Oh, no, I think her issue was more with control, that it’s controlling of you to dictate whom I contact,” and I said, “Exactly. If she were anyone else, it would be controlling. I’ve never asked you not to be in contact with anybody, except her. The reason she thinks it’s controlling is because she doesn’t understand that your R with her was infidelity in our R.” We talked for a long time about the call, and I managed somehow to thank him for sharing with me, that it was brave of him to tell me right away and to answer all my questions.
However, in a subsequent conversation (last night) he started digging in his heels about this, claims not to have understood that he wasn’t supposed to talk to her if she called (huh? I asked him if she were calling twice a week and they were talking for an hour each time, would he feel like it was violating our agreement), and basically got very angry with me, continuing on the “controlling” vein, picking and picking at what I was saying. I finally said, “You know what? If you don’t agree that you shouldn’t be contacting her, then don’t make the agreement not to. That’s fine. Do whatever the hell you want. But what I’m saying to you and what you’re not understanding is, it’s not acceptable TO ME. I don’t have to deal with it. I can choose to leave this R.” Upon which he had a mini-meltdown about how could I “choose to have this child together and then threaten to take her away” from him – that it was “blackmail.” I said in no uncertain terms that I had no plans to take her away from him at all, in fact I’m getting this D so that there is no paternity question expressly because I’m NOT taking the child away from him. I benefit from staying in the M (health insurance is one thing). I said that that had to be separated from our romantic R, and that I didn’t have to be in a R with him other than as a parent, I didn’t have to accept his actions.
Now, today, she has shown her true colors and e-mailed him. She stated that she is ignoring the no-contact rule, and went on to say how sorry she was for him (and how sorry she is for HERSELF(!?!) she wrote. Here’s part of the mail (isn’t there some really ugly color I can put this in? Let's try Poo Brown).
I can't stop thinking about our last conversation. And what is going on in my mind seems to be a mixture of going back in my own history, in ours, trying to grasp and in part understand the presen[t], feeling sorry for you, also for myself (let's try to be honest:)), and wonder what "could be done" if life is actually about doing at all (seems more like finding a way through what's happening anyway sometimes).
I'm ignoring the not-getting-in-contact-part for various reasons trusting you in telling me what to do or not if necessary. And what I'm doing is just talking to you for a bit, as if we had a conversation, without a direction, an end point or an universal conclusion. I wish you were closer that I could hear your voice, see your face while we both talk instead of just me, and still, writing (to you) is/has always been something special for me, a moment to focus, to gather oneself.
Thinking about last night brings me back to the very beginning, to where I saw you first in [England where they met], where I called you from a phone booth in Berlin in between two lectures unable to imagine your life in NYC (where you had gone back to after your visit at [her now-X-BF’s]). Why these old days... I remember emailing to you back then, and one topic we got sort of in contact through was: your unhappy relationship with [S.’s X-GF before the one before me]. Many aspects of this make me think today, why about this subject - I guess, because it was an easy way of sharing things and getting to "know" the other person indirectly. I remember giving you this book by Anais Nin, THE HOUSE OF INCEST. And I knew exactly why, today I still do - because it seemed to reflect so well, so pure, so relentlessly the torment and confusion we are facing in relationships at whatever stages they might be. And it was a bilingual edition…
For a long while I was fascinated by how we talked, how sensitive this person I had talked to over a couple of wines at a party and danced with later was. [which happens to be the night they ended up in some dark corner making out for the first time]
This was part 1. More is to come later, according to her. This was just her lunch break musings. So I await the receipt of this e-mail by S. (which could be today, or next week), and our T appointment tomorrow morning, hoping the former comes before the latter. I can’t sit on this another week. If it doesn’t come up before T, when it does come up I will ask for an appointment immediately. I am also asking to see the e-mail. I’m tired of half-truths. I want the true information to come from him, not from snooping. And if he refuses to show it to me? Well, that’s all I need to know.
I’ve been numb since Sunday night, but now the feeling is starting to come back and I am PISSED. I’m trying to keep to myself to avoid lashing out out of anger, but I am getting angrier by the moment. It just goes to show, S. just doesn’t get it, or he doesn’t want to. He wants to have it all – an intimate friendship (with flirtatious tension) with her, and some kind of R with me. Maybe he doesn’t care about the R with me at all – he just wants the baby. In which case, the focus of T needs to shift from our R to how to navigate co-parenting.
Lovely, isn’t it? And I had been giving her the benefit of the doubt as an innocent in all this, but now I see that even when she knows about us, she doesn’t have the common decency to respect our R and BUTT OUT. The sweet memories she’s trying to evoke just make me sick.
I simply don't know what to say that might console you. But I sure have plenty to say in regards to the Anti-S campaign.
Just going to vent. Maybe that will console you?
Quote: He said, “In the end, she said, ‘I’m sorry things aren’t better.’” For some reason, he also found it necessary to share with her our agreement that he not contact her. He told her it was because she had “been an issue” in our R, that we were working on it in T.
It sure sounds to me like the case of a whiny Wally (The Beav's older brother), who complains to his buddy (Eddie Haskell) that June and Ward won't allow him to go to an unsupervised party where loose girls, booze and drugs may be present. We both know that Eddie is the friend who leads him astray and to break promises that he made to his parents and which he knows are ultimately bad for him.
Of course, Ward and June forgive him by the end of the episode, because Wally is contrite and agrees not to cave into Eddie next time...
I say this because it sounds as though S is taking issue with your agreement... an agreement he bought into while in T to start working toward a goal of being with you.
If he didn't mean it, why didn't he say so? Then let you be the one who is allowed to re-evaluate your R with this knowledge? (See H2H's thread for relevance on disclosure.)
Quote: He told me, “She had an issue with an agreement not to talk to somebody.” I said “Well, that’s really none of her business.
She had the issue? I doubt it. If he had been telling her this with conviction and as a matter of fact, I doubt that she would have disagreed. Sounds like he's projecting his feelings and assigning them to her so you can transfer your feelings elsewhere (anyone but him).
I agree that if it had been executed from a position of love, this agreement is none of her business. So why on earth did he make it her business? I'm thinking the answer isn't altruistic or pure either.
BTW, sorry to be the downer who validates your vent. But I clearly take issue with his course of action, sweetie.
Quote: However, in a subsequent conversation (last night) he started digging in his heels about this, claims not to have understood that he wasn’t supposed to talk to her if she called (huh? I asked him if she were calling twice a week and they were talking for an hour each time, would he feel like it was violating our agreement), and basically got very angry with me, continuing on the “controlling” vein, picking and picking at what I was saying.
That's because he's projecting anger to you for making an agreement that he doesn't wholly buy into. (Sorry, the preposition thing seems to be all over this BB lately.) It's hard to mediate when one person is conceding but doesn't want to. That means on paper, compromise exists and both people get a fair decision. But in reality? It's passive-aggressive and really unfair. Who knows where the real bar lies?
Quote: (isn’t there some really ugly color I can put this in? Let's try Poo Brown).
Cover wee one's ears because I want to call a spade a spade: this color is sh!t brown!
Her e-mail totally sucks. And I find it fueling the fires that S doesn't need to be fanning. My guess is she's no innocent either. I'm really unimpressed with her as a person. No wonder you take issue with this woman.
Quote: Maybe he doesn’t care about the R with me at all – he just wants the baby. In which case, the focus of T needs to shift from our R to how to navigate co-parenting.
Are you ready to state this desire? Just want to make sure you think this through before you go for his jugular.
Big hugs! (And I mean mammoth ones...)
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Jennifer, you have every right to be angry. What a situation! I'm not going to edit what I write to you so I apologize in advance if it seems too stream-of-consciousness.
What is your goal? I believe it's that you want a committed, vibrant M with S. Is that right? If so, is confronting him on SM's email going to bring you closer to making your goal a reality, move you further away or have no effect whatsoever?
Do you know if he opened her email? I gathered you snooped it. Do you know that he has read it, or deleted it without reading?
Can you look at this sitch from his POV? He's what -- 42? No kids yet, right? He didn't expect you to get pregnant, he didn't anticipate being a father, did he? He has a lot of unexpected responsibilities which he has skillfully avoided thus far in his life. A generation ago, S. would be old enough to be a grandfather by now -- not a first time dad.
He has the responsibility for renovations, too.
SM is offering him an alternative. An attractive, fantastic (meaning fantasy-like) alternative to the worries of his life. Who wouldn't rather think of misty London, canoodling in the corner, reading Anais Nin, wearing impossibly fashionable yet shabby clothes?
The more you make of this, the greater the contrast between you and SM. She's all loving and kind and caring, and you are controlling and ... what else?
Could you jumping on him be construed as controlling? Do you want to reinforce this idea he's got in his head?
How about showing him just how un-controlling you can be? How about telling him how much you appreciate his telling you about the phone call? How about taking it down a notch and just letting it be?
Would that move you closer to your goal, or not?
You're one smart cookie, cookie. Use your noggin and think this one thru before you act. You have a lot going for you now -- use it to your advantage.
1) If you and S get married, there will always be outside threats to your M, not just Swiss Miss, even though she's a convenient fantasy an ocean away. The issue then becomes not the motives of the outside party (I wish I had a dollar for every DBer who trusted/knew the OP), but the actions, commitment, and response of S.
2) As for S, he didn't have to tell you anything, so I'll disagree with Betsey a bit and say there is some level of integrity and desire to comply with your agreement, regardles of what he divulged, although eh remains highly ambivalent.
3) I may ask to meet S and hit him over the head with a baseball bat and ask him to make a f%^^%%^ing choice. And you may have to lay down an ultimatum. As for $$$$ and health care, who is paying your prenatal and hospital care right now? Are you covered? I also suspect S would not want to resolve these issues with a court order.
4) The snooping may have to stop because you are setting yourself up for some serious privacy issues with S. On three fronts you are burning. The first is the knowledge you gain from snooping which will torture your informed mind; the second is witholding the fact from S that you know more of what is going on, and the third is the level of trust he will have in you when and if he finds out. S's R skill do not appear strong enough right now to treat his knowledge of your snopping as anything more than ammo to be used against you.
Ahem...'cuse me if I barge in your thread. I have been reading your sitch with close interest along with dismay.
Michele's post is one that I repsectfully disagree with [yes, I am afflicted with the preposition illness as well!]. It hinges on the fact that S is displaying consistent patterns of dishonesty that differs vastly from being truthful. It is not just a simple case of what I've posted over in H2H's thread: What I am saying here is that in SO's mind, he is not being untruthful, he is trying to be true to his own self by leaving out some painful information from you.
In my view, S. was going by the so-called "truthfulness" book in revealing the 2-hour long convo with SM on technical grounds. S.'s POV be damned!!!
Quote: Can you look at this sitch from his POV? He's what -- 42? No kids yet, right? He didn't expect you to get pregnant, he didn't anticipate being a father, did he? He has a lot of unexpected responsibilities which he has skillfully avoided thus far in his life. A generation ago, S. would be old enough to be a grandfather by now -- not a first time dad.
We all can try and put out the other person's POV for all the gold in the world---still does not detract from the fact that there's on-going tension and stress from the long shadow that SM projects on this R with a baby on the way! You know why? S will not come clean about the covert contacts with SM. Does this really make S "husband" material down the road??!
Quote: How about showing him just how un-controlling you can be? How about telling him how much you appreciate his telling you about the phone call? How about taking it down a notch and just letting it be?
Oh sure..unwittingly give SM the power to control the R from afar by trying to be "uncontrolling" as possible?It is one thing to express appreciation to S for revealing the phone call and allowing SM's continued phantom presence in the R as a non-physical third party person. Emails and phone calls are no less insidious than a PA itself! S is continuing his EA with SM from afar!
Quote: Would that move you closer to your goal, or not?
Is it? Or do you want to reveal the bald truth that the R is a non-starter as long as SM lingers on the scene? From my chair, all I see is that S consistently presents a pattern of dishonesty. He is dishonest to all four people intimately involved in this sitch: Himself, you, SM and the yet-to-be newborn baby. That is one HELL of damage not to mention the demolition project that is going on over at his house! In a way, S is sitting on the fence for a myraid of reasons and just wants to keep SM around for "just in case" which is a hellish way to begin parenthood!
Thanks guys. For the record, I thanked him immediately for telling me about the phone call before I asked him to elaborate. Then later, I thanked him again and said I knew it was hard for him to tell me and probably very scary. I also thanked him for answering all my questions about the phone call, validating again that it was probably very hard for him to do.
Just wanted to throw that in there before it got to be a focus of debate... there's SO much to recount-- I had to leave out some details. Otherwise, I'd be voted off the boards for excessive posting in a unanimous decision!
Not to mention, my head is swimming.
I want to leave this out there for more feedback before I respond in more detail. Thanks again.
Betsey 
Betsey 