Hello all. I have been around the boards a bit, but am mostly over at SSM. I pop in on this forum now and then, hoping maybe I can help. I want to help because I used to be a cheater during my marriage, which ended in divorce (not only because of the cheating but...), and I have since mended my cheating ways and am in a happily faithful relationship.
The reason I started this particular thread, is because here and there I am reading posts from an LBS who has a cheating spouse, and it becomes obvious to me that the LBS is being duped, either by their spouse or by their own refusal to really see things for how they are.
I can understand if you are an LBS and you simply don't want to know what your WAS is up to. Seriously, that is probably the best thing for a lot of people.
But for any LBS who has a WAS that is actively pursuing another relationship, I just want to chime in on a couple of things....
Specifically...if your WAS is cheating, please don't try to believe that they have had a change of heart toward you just because they were nice to you one day, especially when you know they were recently out to see their affair partner.
For instance, your WAS goes out until late on Saturday night, with a lame excuse which you don't believe. Sunday they seem all bright and cheery toward you and you begin to have hope they are changing their mind. PLEASE! Please don't go there. They are likely in a bright and cheery mood because they just got their fix of their chosen drug the night before, their affair partner.
I also recently read by an LBS that his WAW was going to a work party where lots of upper management were going to be in attendance...and because of the upper management being there, the LBS made the hypothesis that it would be too "risky" for his WAW to be up to "no good" at this party. Again PLEASE! Please don't underestimate how easy it is to sneak off to a closet or under a stairwell and play post office if you are in an affair. And not only that, but many of those upper management people will be the first ones to be after your wife, or to turn their backs when their collegue is after your wife. There really is no place, no party, no area, no circumstance that is "safe" from affair stuff. Shenanigans can be gotten up to no matter where you are, no matter who is there.
I'm not proud of my past. It has taken me many years of self study to figure out what the heck was wrong with me. But I really get it now and am truly faithful now...so I want to do whatever I can to help other people with this. If you have questions for me, I will try to help. I can describe a fairly accurate picture of how most affairs start, how they develop, and what it takes to break them up. But the key will be, if you are an LBS with a cheating spouse, what are you willing to hear? Are you willing to face the ugliest truths you've ever been faced with? Are you ready to really accept that your WAS has done this horrid thing to you, and continues to do it to you?
I know that many need to stay in denial for their own reasons, and I don't blame them at all. Its the people who are trying to do the right thing by their marriage and really trying to work on things, that I feel bad for when I read things like the examples I made above. For those that want to face this thing dead on, I am here to help if I can. Ask me anything. But be prepared for the truth so you can really make your choices accordingly.
I'm sorry for all you are going through, all of you. It is heartwarming (or heartbreaking, not sure) to see all the people in this forum (on all sections) trying so hard to save their marriages. Its inspiring, really. And if your WAS could truly understand the amount of love pouring out of you for them, they possibly could break free from that fog and come back around. Sadly though, a lot of them will not ever truly understand it and will wander through life in their fog.
I hope this post isn't offensive to anyone. If you are offended, please don't take it out on me. I know you are in a lot of pain, but I'm truly here to help and that's all. I really have mended my ways and I understand now how it all happened. I'm on the good team now. If I can help you understand anything about affairs or your sitch, let me know.
DQ
DQ,
I honestly don't think that many of them truly want to know. "Ignorance is bliss" and all that rot. I try to warn of the red flags, and I get moderators telling me to knock it off, and the LBSs seem to say "I don't think she's having an affair, because I asked her, and she said she wasn't," or "I don't think he's cheating on me because he's not that type."
Bless you for the courage to come here.
Puppy
Thanks Puppy. I see your posts where you are gently trying to say these things, and I applaud your courage as well.
Its so hard and painful, and I totally understand wanting to be in denial.
But I figured I would open my own thread for those who really want to ask a former cheater straight up, any question they want. This way, I won't impose on other threads of LBS's who want to stay in denial. Instead, anyone who really wants an opinion can come here and I'll (as gently as possible) tell them the truth as I see it...without the denial filter. Only those who want to hear it will really ask me, I'm sure.
If moderators close down my thread, well, ok...its their board and all....just thought I would try.
Thank you, Pup.
DQ
DQ-
Well bless your heart. I appreciate the courage and concern that it has taken you to post here.
I hope you can help get through to some drifting in denial.
I wish you all the best.
dw
Ho DanceQueen,
Thanks for joining this forum, I can only speak for myself but any help I can get is appreciated. So I have some questions:
From a WS point of view, do you believe that DB can be effective or is it just a waste of time?
Second, just to share a bit of my sitch, my H has had a long term A with OW. He now has a child with her. We separated in 2005 for about 6 weeks, got back together, then I left in 2006, and now he has left which he says I put him out. OW got married which we believe was because H was married. By the way, H was actually seeing OW before we got married. Now her H has left, and my H and her are living together. Although he has not fessed up to that. I could tell that H is still on the fence and I don't think he has really committed to being with OW. He doesn't want to get a divorce but he doesn't want to do what it takes to make the M work either. He uses his son and says that he has to do and be in contact with OW for his son. I do know him and OW had to mantain contact but it was a daily thing several times a day etc. Anyway, now that H is gone I can't help but feel hopeless at times like I am wasting my time. H and I have been together 14-15 years. What do you think?
Oh, I meant to write "HI DanceQueen". Thanks again.
Thank you davidswife. Very much.
Vicky, as for DB, when I got separated, I wished and prayed and asked my ex-h to please do something to try to keep me around. So in my case, ANY program designed to bring the partner back would have worked on me. It is definitely NOT a waste of time and is successful many times. It would have been on me. But my ex-h never tried...not necessarily his fault because we were both so ignorant of anything to do with successful marriages. Just sayin', my head and thinking could have been turned around if he had tried anything.
As for your sitch...my honest opinion is that your H is lost and drifting, and there is really nothing *you* can do that you haven't already done. You made the good fight and did all the DB-ing you could. He hasn't done the other part, so at this point, it seems like nothing but heartache for you to continue to try to get him back. In a case like yours, I think part of this for him is the drama. He likes it or is addicted to it or for some reason cannot escape it. I have known many drama addicts, and this is a real thing, I'm not just blowin' smoke. Basically, in my opinion, loving someone is NEVER a waste of time. But trying to get them to come back to you if they are just plain totally lost, is eventually a waste of time. I hope that helps, but I don't think it will. I don't want to just outright say "give up on him", but instead, I want to say, "stop hoping he will change and realize he is in the depths of an addiction."
DQ
Thanks, DQ. Very true because even H has said that he is lost and I know it. And yes, he doesn't do anything to find himself. And possibly that he is addictive to the drama b/c although he is with OW I know he hasn't committed himself 100% and a part of me feels like he is affeared to commit himself truly to anyone. So, I do try to get over him, but it is so hard. I tell you if there was a pill to take to cure my love for him, I think I would take it.
Thanks again for coming over to this forum.
Thanks Vicky...hang in there, and please do remember what I said about how loving someone is NEVER a waste of time. That part is never ever a waste of time. But we can love someone while still letting them go and moving on (or whatever you decide to do going forward).
One thing that I don't see talked about a lot on this forum, but which is discussed much more on another marriage/infidelity forum, is the idea that there is a withdrawal that happens when/if a WAS's affair breaks up.
The short version is this: affairs are like an addiction, and when the WAS gives up their affair partner, they go through a period of withdrawal afterwards. Until they go through and complete this withdrawal process (and assuming they do not strike up contact again or begin the affair again), then they cannot be fully present in their marriage. They have to finish that withdrawal process first, THEN (if they choose it) they can recommit to the marriage.
The reason I bring this up is that I also see LBS's writing about how their WAS seemed "down" the other day, and the LBS is hoping that maybe their WAS was down because they are reconsidering coming back, or because the WAS is second guessing their actions.
More than likely, if you have an WAS in an affair, if they appear to be "down" it is because they are going through some kind of drama with their affair partner. Quite simply put, even if an LBS would say out loud to their LBS that they are down and if they ask to lean on the LBS for support, they are probably trying to mend their OWN broken/breaking heart....but their heart is breaking due to something going on in their affair, not in their marriage.
Affairs almost always include a roller coaster full of drama, ups and downs, breakups, etc. Because the nature of the affair is already slimy and risky, these other factors don't seem that weird to the WAS. They just accept this roller coaster emotional drama as if it is expected, because in some ways, YEAH it is expected to be a slimy road once you walk down the path of an affair. Even the WAS knows this somewhere in his/her heart. They know that the "price" of an affair is the roller coaster, the lying, the hiding, etc.
So - if you have a WAS who seems down, don't just immediately come around and try to comfort them. It is quite possible they aren't down about losing you, but about losing whatever skeezo they are involved with. I know that must be hard to hear, but it is important. Don't read things into your WAS's behavior, but instead, study them from afar and educate yourself on what these behaviors look like....while still GAL'ing, etc.
I can understand the tempation to disect every move your WAS makes. But if you do this with the overlaying hope that they will come back around, then you are going to apply your own hope to your interpretation to their actions.
From my point of view, having been the world's biggest idiot in marriage, I can see through most of the b.s. and understand what these WAS's are really feeling. And it usually isn't about their LBS. Its about some crazy up-and-down thing they have created for themselves outside the marriage.
DQ
Hi DQ, I don't remember if you and your 1st H had kids or not. If so, how did you react regarding them? I have the issue where ex is forcing the kids to be with OW because they plan on living together at some point and they might as well get over it. She will be there and they will be there, let's all be happy and get along. This is the attitude he has. The kids know that this is the OW that Daddy was having an A with because he told them from the get go!
Just wanting your point of view. He is also asking for more parenting time...1 more evening and then to make those overnights and the mad dash getting ready with 3 extra people in the way and a 40 minute drive to get to school. He is the one that used our county guidelines to create parenting time and is now wanting to change things because he isn't happy.
Sorry for the ramble, I am ticked right now.
kat
Well I should clarify, that when I separated from my husband, I was not in the midst of an affair, so there was no other person to get the kids mixed up with. And in my case, I think my leaving him sent my ex-h into a sort of tail-spin MLC...and what happened as a result of that was that HE walked away from our son. That was an unexpected development, for sure!
Even at my foggiest, I did not put my affair ahead of my kids. So maybe I am not a good voice for people who do like what your H is doing. It just doesn't resonate with me at all on any level.
Which is not to say I am a more moral person than anyone else. Just that for whatever reason, thankfully I was spared of the type of fog that causes people to abandon their children.
My kids were 14 and 19 when we separated. The 19 year old was on her on in college. The 14 year old is the one my ex-h abandoned in the midst of our separation. It was as if our son looked too much like me and my ex-h didn't want to even see his face. I'm just speculating based on what it felt like, not on anything my ex-h said.
IMO, if a parent is going to leave the marriage and immediately introduce a new partner to their children, then they are really F-ing things up! Can I ask, is your H a child of divorce himself? The reason I ask this is that it seems from what I have seen and gone through, that adult children of divorce are more sensitive to their own children if they come to a divorce themselves. But adult children whose parents were never divorced don't seem to "get" what dragging a child through this stuff does.
I could write for pages on my opinions about the children going through these circumstances...my heart goes out to you and I hope somehow he will get some sense into his head. Again, were his parents divorced?
DQ
no. his parents aren't divorced but he is adopted. They are afraid to say anything to him as he may decide to not see them anymore. His father did have an affair and wanted to bring the OW to live with them!!
They are also dysfunctional themselves as they had to get a dog, just to have something to talk about. These are the exact things my FMIL has said to me.
My S16 says for all practical purposes he doesn't have a Dad and doesn't want to have much of anything to do with him, though I do have ex taking him to school since there is a conflict with my girl's bus schedule and the time the High School starts. S13 feels as if he is forced to go, which he basically is. Even when he is sick, ex won't let him stay home because it is his time. I even had a time where s13 was not feeling well at his dad's but ex didn't bother to give him anything to help him feel better. He waited until he got home and then started telling me what to do for him. I kid you not.
kat
SQ--
Thank you so much for starting this affair. I do not know how much you know about my sitch. Long story short, DH started an affair while we were separated due to military obligations. When i found out he said he wanted to try to work things out when he got home. Two weeks after he got home he said he wanted a D, two weeks after that he was out of the house after a horrific fight over the fact that D17 was devastated by what was happening.
SH has been deployed since Sept. I do not know the status of his R with the OW, but am operating under the assumption that he is still in constant communication with her--at least via email. He will be back from deployment in a few weeks. I want to bust the A and save my marriage. I have been GAL and really found me over the past few months. what do I do when he gets home? How do I handle him possibly wanting to stay at the house so he can spend more time with the kids when he gets home?
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Dancing Queen,
I have a question for you. Please read this that I posted yesterday, it gives you a very short synopsis of my sitch and where I am right now:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1735072&page=2#Post1735072Do you think its unreasonable and/or humiliating, considering my sitch, to require my WAH to have a polygraph as a requirement for moving forward in our marraige?
Thank you in advance!
DQ, I would love to get your response to the following article. How would you have responded to this type of approach while you were actively still in your affair?
thanks,
Puppy
While Your Spouse Decides
By Michele Weiner-Davis
Perhaps you are someone whose spouse is in the midst of an affair and it is making you crazy. You feel like giving up on your marriage. Worse yet, you feel like being hurtful. Don't do anything you will regret in the long run. You came to this website because you want to save your marriage. Remember that. You need to stay focused on your goal, even if it's hard. On rough days, refer to what David, a Divorce Busting® family member, taught us about how he won back his wife. He now lives ecstatically ever after.
Michele-
I decided, early in my separation, that my wife was my best friend....ever. I resolved to NEVER allow the separation to hinder my friendship with her. I acted, from the very beginning, as a friend. I helped her move out by moving all of her stuff downstairs to help her to save money with the moving people. I loaned her money to help her get her new place. More than anything, I stuck by her when her parents were in the hospital (during March, as you remembered) and supported her space, as a single woman (her stupid boyfriend actually got jealous about her spending so much time with her sick parents). I tried very hard to not allow my pain, over her choice to leave me, to be reflected in my face, mannerisms or with respect to how I treated her. I gave her space and respected her choice to enter into a relationship with someone else. I never said anything bad about her boyfriend and was always there when he couldn’t or wouldn’t be there. We did have one big argument, but even the bad feelings associated with that argument went away. I attribute this to our friendship. Whenever anyone asks me how to act after they have been left by their partner, I have one answer...act like a friend. Perhaps all that will survive is friendship, but by preserving a friendship, you always leave the door open to something more. My wife's boyfriend began getting jealous towards the end of their relationship. He forbid her to see me (which, of course, didn't go over well at all with her). This guy was the one carrying on a romance with my wife, but he was jealous of our friendship. True, unconditional friendship is very powerful. I believe, if more people just concentrated on saving the friendship, in the true manner of a friend (along with making changes in themselves), most would have their lovers back in their arms so soon it would make them dizzy.
I still wonder about this...but I think my wife and I sort of made excuses to see each other under the guise of "family and business" matters. I think my wife really just wanted to have me near her as someone who wouldn’t pressure her into a "date" or sex or anything of that nature. Just someone to be nice to her, accept her and talk to her with no pressure. The way I figured, is that we had experienced the dating, sex and marriage relationship things. I sort of developed an attitude of "been there, done that". I challenged myself to be her truest and most devoted friend. The more I challenged myself and lived up to the challenge, the more inner power I gained.
Friendship........empathy, being there without criticism, being non-judgmental.....this is unconditional friendship.
Believe me, the decision to be a friend, against all odds, proved to be a major challenge. There were times when I truly thought of giving up, especially when the boyfriend arrived. Usually, I would come to this site and vent and request support and information. Michele, and the "family" here, never let me down.
Read More of Michele's Articles ShareThis
2009 Copyright - Michele Weiner-Davis. All rights reserved.
Hey Pup,
What are your thoughts on the article? I would be interested in hearing what you think too. Thanks.
This would be a good discussion to have so if others want to chime in I would be interested in hearing their thoughts...
Here are mine: H and I have maintained a certain friendship in our sitch. The first couple months all we did was fight and I was the one starting the fights and H was on the run. Once I found DB I stopped fighting and even now we can have civilized conversations. Just the other day, I was talking to H about how I am proud of myself b/c of how I have handled the situation b/c other people don't handle it so well and he said that we are civilized to each other b/c we talked about how we would be if we break up. If made me think that H thinks that I am OK with the situation. I adamently told him No I am not and that I have tons of reasons to go crazy on him but I chose to not act crazy. Anyway, it made me wonder if the friendship makes H think that I am peachy with this situation. But then again, it could just be an excuse because the number of arguments we've had over his A there should be no way that he thinks that.
But I do try to not talk to H too often or to be too close of a friend because my attitude is that he left so he shouldn't have the benefits of me. Like someone on this site said before: as long as everyone is willing to keep the triangel stable, there would be no reason for it to change. So I try distance friendship.
Hello SMW...I did read some of your earlier posts (sad m. wife, right?) I had lost track of your sitch but I am glad to get an update.
From what I remember, your H's OW is an older woman, and you are older than he is, too (but not by as much as the OW). I am just putting this into place as far as the dynamic he seems to be "chasing"....I hesitate to just say the obvious, that he has mommy issues? But tell me if that is not too far off base. So because the OW is so much older (I hope I have these details right) he might be so enmeshed within his mommy thing that he literally cannot pull himself out of it.
I think you are wise to operate under the assumption that he is in contact with her every day or as much as possible, and that he is attempting to create a new life with her (based on him asking for a D). All is not lost however, as most affairs really DO end up on some trash heap, never to be picked up again. However, that might not happen before you have given up on him. I know you have already heard all of this and its not really advice. I'm just saying from personal experience that his affair WILL END at some point, and he is going to be sad and looking for mommy again as soon as that happens.
So....this is just girlfriend to girlfriend advice now....if I were you I would refuse to be his mommy or support him in any way, including not letting him stay at the house UNLESS he declares he is done with the A and has established NC which you can verify. I know that's almost the opposite of what you want, because he has been deployed, he is your H, and you miss him terribly....you will want him home when he gets back, and you will want to be with him intimately, etc.
The problem with a cheater is that they will always eat cake as long as its offered. Its like there is a total separation and they don't even feel guilty about it. They can completely compartmentalize themselves and take all you will give them, yet still take all their affair partner will give them, and they themselves will give NEITHER of you their 100%. You will each get only about 25%. The other 50% of their effort will be devoted to their own selfishness on some level.
I know this doesn't really help you but these are my impressions.
I will come answer the other posts individually shortly....
DQ
Dug In...Here is something that it took me years to understand....people just don't realize what an EA is. Your H was probably in an EA with the gal from work he was talking to during separation, but since a lot of people just don't understand what boundaries are necessary to keep an EA from happening, they just don't understand that what they are doing is inappropriate. People with marriage issues NEED TO TALK, and they really should be talking to each other, their MC, their priest or pastor, their parents, their sibling. BUT THEY NEED TO TALK. So anytime there are marriage issues, it should be assumed that one or both partners are naturally going to seek out someone to talk to. If we end up talking to someone that is totally "safe" to the marriage, then great. But once we start talking to opposite sex friends and co-workers, we are on a slippery slope. Sadly though, as I said upfront, most people just don't realize how quickly this slope can get slippery. And so we can cut a *tiny* bit of slack for our partners when they have just been ignorant of something inappropriate.
So....for that reason....I would advise you that if everything else seems on the up and up, and there are no more weird phone calls, and he is being transparent with you otherwise, then I'd say you should try to let it go regarding the phone calls to the co-worker. BUT if he is still working with her, I would have to guess he is still talking to her.
Please anyone reading this, do take in this message: if your marriage is in trouble, your partner WILL seek out someone to talk to! So...if your marriage is in trouble, be pro-active and make sure your partner understands who it is appropriate to talk to and who it is not appropriate to talk to. So many people just think they are talking because they are hurting, and they don't realize they are opening doors between themselves and the person they are talking to!!
DQ
DQ, thanks for the response. He does now see it as an EA and claims to be working on himself (IC, reading, MC with me). The real question I am trying to figure out is in regard to the boundary I set when I found out about OW2 last month, which was getting the polygraph.
Do you think its unreasonable and/or humiliating, considering my sitch, to require my WAH to have a polygraph as a requirement for moving forward in our marraige?
Dug In...Here is something that it took me years to understand....people just don't realize what an EA is. Your H was probably in an EA with the gal from work he was talking to during separation, but since a lot of people just don't understand what boundaries are necessary to keep an EA from happening, they just don't understand that what they are doing is inappropriate. People with marriage issues NEED TO TALK, and they really should be talking to each other, their MC, their priest or pastor, their parents, their sibling. BUT THEY NEED TO TALK. So anytime there are marriage issues, it should be assumed that one or both partners are naturally going to seek out someone to talk to. If we end up talking to someone that is totally "safe" to the marriage, then great. But once we start talking to opposite sex friends and co-workers, we are on a slippery slope. Sadly though, as I said upfront, most people just don't realize how quickly this slope can get slippery. And so we can cut a *tiny* bit of slack for our partners when they have just been ignorant of something inappropriate.
So....for that reason....I would advise you that if everything else seems on the up and up, and there are no more weird phone calls, and he is being transparent with you otherwise, then I'd say you should try to let it go regarding the phone calls to the co-worker. BUT if he is still working with her, I would have to guess he is still talking to her.
Please anyone reading this, do take in this message: if your marriage is in trouble, your partner WILL seek out someone to talk to! So...if your marriage is in trouble, be pro-active and make sure your partner understands who it is appropriate to talk to and who it is not appropriate to talk to. So many people just think they are talking because they are hurting, and they don't realize they are opening doors between themselves and the person they are talking to!!
DQ
Puppy...The article is interesting and of course, I can see how it would work on some WAS's.
Here's the thing in my sitch and this might be hard for some to hear/read...
My ex-h didn't do it for me sexually, at all, ever, not even in the beginning. My A's did do it for me sexually.
So which one wins in this sitch? Friendship or sex? I hope you see where I am going with this...
Some men and women do not place that much value on fulfilling sex, and if that was me, I would have caved immediately to the unconditional friendship, because I highly value friendship, too. But in my case, I was chasing fulfilling sex. I tried chasing it with my ex-h for many many years, so please understand. I really tried to get him to understand my needs and tried to get him on board. But after so many unfulfilling years, I finally gave up and at that time I became vulnerable to any whif of possibly fulfilling sexual "fun" (not necessarily sex but at least some "fun).
So in my case, my ex-h being my friend would have even further turned me off, although I would have appreciated it and would have accepted his friendship.
Instead, what would have worked on me, and as far as I can tell this is against DB advice...but would have worked on me was if he would have pursued me, dated me, tried to initiate sex, flirted, treated me like a woman who he just met but who he is sexually interested in. In fact, I laid it out there for him when I left and said this is what I need you to do. And it was the same thing I had asked him to do all during our marriage. He said he would do it. But he literally never did.
So other guys swooped in and did it in his place. This is what I would hope all men and women will take in: THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMEONE ELSE AFTER YOUR SPOUSE...SO MAKE DANG SURE THAT YOU ARE PURSUING THEM HARDER THAN ANYONE ELSE!
I dated lots of guys during my separation, but I really longed for my ex-h to pursue me like that. I kept giving him chances and telling him I was slipping away. I didn't really have any romantic feelings for the guys I was dating, I was just chasing the possibilty of sexual fulfillment. But I really the whole time wanted it with my ex-h.
He never stepped up...but I understood that he hated me by this point, so he let me drift away. I get that. He didn't want to pursue me because he hated me.
However, he never pursued me from the beginning because he wasn't willing to take any risks in life at all (ie: Nice Guy).
Finally after being separated for 6 months, me begging him to pursue me and date me and have sex with me, I met my current guy, and my ex-h never had a chance after that. My current guy pursued me, and 5 years later now, he still pursues me every single day. He treats me as if there are vultures out there waiting to drag me off at every moment, and you know what? THEY ARE!! My man is smart. He knows what's up.
He wasn't very happy to be dating a married girl (as I was only separated when we met) but as soon as we became serious (after maybe 10 months of dating) I initiated the divorce. My ex-h didn't make another move toward me ever, in fact, he never spoke to me again.
Like I said, I get it. He hated me and he had every reason to.
But would I have moved back toward him romantically had he been my close friend? No. Would I have jumped his bones if he had taken me on a date, flirted with me all night, given me a couple of drinks and told me how lovely I looked? YOU BET. And if that had then turned into staying the night and a breakfast date/romp the next morning, I would have been all for that.
YMMV.
DQ
Dug - it is not unreasonable, but if you really think it is necessary then there is still some doubt in your mind. I think its possible that if you require one of him, he will fail it, but not because he was physically involved with her. Instead, he will likely fail it because its going to be hard for him to remember details of all they talked about, and when he's questioned he's going to get confused. Then failing the test, you are going to think he was up to more than he might have been.
I don't know if this will get deleted or not, but there is a site called Marriage Builders. They have a general questions II area in their forum where LOTS of people advocate polygraph tests. If you can find them, run your question by them over there and see what they say after hearing the whole story.
Personally I would not require it...but that is also because I have doubts as to their accuracy...just my own opinion.
DQ
DQ,
Let me understand: based on your own experience, you think a betrayed spouse should openly pursue, and even try to initiate sex, with a spouse who is actively involved in an affair and is cheating on them?
Or are you saying it would be "wrong" but it would have "worked"?
Or are you saying something else completely?
Puppy
No, I'm only saying that would have worked on ME in my sitch, but from everything I'm reading (here and other boards) it wouldn't work on most WAS's.
In my marriage, I was constantly seeking his pursuit of me and not getting it. So you see, I was starved for it and felt like I needed it elsewhere since I wasn't getting it from him.
This is apparently not the usual dynamic...so that's why I ended with YMMV...
And remember my opening disclaimer, that some people don't place a high value on sexual fulfillment. I DO place a high value on sexual fulfillment so I chased it, right out the door, since I wasn't getting it from him.
In other relationships, if the person who is cheating is not actually cheating for sexual reasons (many times it is not for sexual reasons, instead it is some emotional reason or an approval seeking thing that has little to do with sex), then that cheating person may respond to the unconditional friendship thing.
In my case and in my case only, I had his friendship, what I wanted was for him to sexually pursue me.
In other cases, this doesn't seem to be the normal pattern.
DQ
Yes, SadMilitaryWife was the "old" me.
Yes, the OW is about 50, I am not quite 5 years older than DH.
He and his mother do not have a close relationship--she is not a warm, nurturing person at all. He developed panic attacks at the age of 11, while his own father was deployed, shortly after his brother was born. I don't think his parents ever took the panic attacks seriously until he got older and ended up on Paxil about 10 years ago.
I think the OW will be gone, if only because of the length of time it will potentially take for DH to extricate him from our marriage. We are looking at a minimum of 2-2 1/2 years.
I think he does need counseling to deal with his personal issues, as well as the fact that he has been on Paxil for so long without any type of psychiatric monitoring. The Navy just keeps renewing his prescription without making him see anyone.
Yes, I do miss him terribly and do want him to come home. As for the intimacy, it has already been 14 months and counting on that. I DEFINITELY miss that part! He has been involved with the OW for over a year. I just wish I knew the end was in sight, sooner, rather than later.
I was kind of feeling that way about when he comes home, too, but it was nice to see it from someone who has BTDT, even if it is from the other side of the fence. With the OW being so far away, I am sure he might take the opportunity to cake eat if given the chance. Keep checking on me, as the next few weeks may get hairy.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Also Puppy...in my case, when we separated, we were both free to see other people...and I was not in the midst of an A. My A had been many years prior to separation. Hope that helps because as you can see, it is different. My ex-h wasn't competing with anyone except some bozo's I was just dating, no A's.
DQ
I can't get to that website from here. Thanks for the info. I have to make the appt this afternoon.
I don't think there will be an issue with him being confused, he and I both know who it was and what the time frame was, so the main question will be "Did you sex with OW2's name within the timeframe of July 2008 to November 2008." I don't think there is anything to confusing about that.
Sorry to nip at your heels, any words of wisdom for me? LOL Had to be a bit like Dorothy being from KS and all. Anyway, just gave you some info back on page 2 of your thread and wanted to get your take. I am not in any way wanting to get him back, so don't even have to put that thought out there. Just want to help my kids get through the mess with their Dad as best as possible.
I did add some stuff on my thread that had happened last night if you want to check that out, I would appreciate it.
kat
I'll be back to answer Dug and Kat shortly!
DQ
Also Puppy...in my case, when we separated, we were both free to see other people...and I was not in the midst of an A. My A had been many years prior to separation. Hope that helps because as you can see, it is different. My ex-h wasn't competing with anyone except some bozo's I was just dating, no A's.
DQ
Gotcha, DQ -- thanks for clarifying.
In my own particular case, my wife has an OFF-THE-CHARTS high need for validation of her beauty of her youthfulness . . . wants to be seen as being sex-Y, but doesn't want to necessarily have to have any ACTUAL SEX to go along with it (she is LD/ND). So I never knew WHAT to do in order to pull her back towards me. I KNEW she was craving my validation, but after 15+ years of a SSM, I was beyond resentful, and tired of not getting any of MY needs met, all the while speaking HER most important LLs. So I finally stopped validating, which then made her ripe for someone who WOULD, and her affair, and . . .
Ugh.
Puppy
Dug-In...ok I get it now. You would want him to prove via polygraph that he didn't sleep with OW2, not just talk to her inappropriately. You have suspicions that he was physically involved with her during your separation and he denies it, so you would want him to prove it to you. Gotcha.
Wellll....that's a tough one but the bottom line is, if he is innocent he will happily take the test! He may grumble and be offended, but he would comply to prove his innocence! Now whether that is the right answer or not, I have no idea. All I know is that, even given my indiscretions, if my ex-h accused me of an indiscretion that wasn't true, I would happily prove it to him in whatever way he needed me to.
DQ
Kat - I went and posted on your thread.
SMW - I will go and try to keep caught up on your sitch.
Puppy...I'm not sure if I should say this because I might be way off base...this might be not helpful at all so just disregard it if that is the case but...
I understand that your W needs this constant validation. I can relate to that, only I don't call it a need for validation. I need the PURSUIT of a man who is sexually hot for me. Is that the same thing? I'm not sure if its the same or not, because in my case I know I'm a MILF and don't need anyone to validate that for me (ie: I am self-assured about my looks and my body). I also know guys want to jump my bones, and that is not what I'm after either (ie: its no big deal to me that guys want to have sex with me, duh, they want to have sex with any girl). I am after TRUE and HONEST PURSUIT by a worthy partner.
Given the fact that I used to allow this pursuit to come at me from other directions during my marriage, it would seem that I am after variety, or that I'm after a quick and meaningless encounter. But I'm not, in reality. I'm after TRUE and HONEST PURSUIT by someone who can really turn me on.
My fiance is giving me all the pursuit I need, he can really turn me on, he is worthy on all levels, and so this works for us. I am turned on all the time, I am faithful, I don't even look in any other direction, and I give him all the pursuit he needs too...I make him feel respected, needed, wanted, valued, trusted, etc. Plus all the sex he could ever want, and more.
So what I am getting at here is this: If you and Mrs. Puppy are at a standoff, where you refuse to give her the validation she desires, and she refuses to give you the sex you desire....then my obvious suggestion is for you to just be the bigger person (yet again, I'm sure) and give her the validation. BUT at the same time, start asserting yourself sexually toward her.
Example: Tell her that her mouth looks fantastic today, is that a new color of lipstick? In fact, it looks so good its making you think of getting a bj. Then when she acts like you just made a horrible statement, don't back down. Just smile and say "hey I'm just sayin', your mouth looks great...I'm a man, what am I supposed to think?"
Another example: Pick her up from work unexpectedly some day when you know she is wearing a dress...and ask her to take her panties off on the way home and let you see what she's got under them. Then if she does it: just drive! Take a peek now and then at her lap...act turned on...but continue driving and watching the road!
The point is to give her the validation while at the same time you are reinforcing your sexual nature to her. It SHOULD, in theory, turn her on for you to do this, if you do it right.
But if this is just downright crazy-talk, I would understand that. I only know bits and pieces of your sitch and about Mrs. Puppy.
DQ
DQ,
Thanks, but I tried ALL of that stuff for nearly 20 years. At some point, you just give up. It is a tunnel ENTIRELY devoid of any cheese, trust me.
People go where they're invited, kwim?
thanks,
Puppy
Yep I get it...I really do. If she's closed the door on you that way, then there's no use beating your head against it.
She must have problems that go deeper than just the need for validation...but obviously, you know that.
I hope somehow things get better....
DQ
Thanks, DQ, and yes, she does.
Thanks for stopping by my thread. Got me teared up there! I think the best I can do is be their rock. Be stable and caring but firm when ncessary. they are in a precarious position, I admit and the girls may not show more issues for a while.
S16 is really talkative about it. My main focus at the moment is on S13. He doesn't talk about how he feels much. He knows that I am here for him and he talks about everyday stuff with ease. His grades have suffered and I am working on that bit right now. He still had a 3.0 with getting one D. So I have got his grades up by helping him and supporting him. Yes, he is doing this. He is at an age when he really needs his dad and in fact S16 was 13 1/2 when all of this started. So I know how they both will have issues. My Dad has always been a strong and contant factor in their lives and I believe this is helping them now.
Thanks for stopping by.
kat
Oh Kat, thank GOD for your father being in their lives, then! Truly, this will make a HUGE difference. Hang tight to the knowledge that the father figure doesn't have to be their father...it just has to be someone who can truly show them a *healthy* man, one who loves them and will never abandon them.
My father was gone by the time of my divorce, and was never really around my son before that, either. My brother is a good influence, but he is a parapalegic and has so many issues of his own, he could never be there for my son. My only saving grace has been my fiance...
But your father Kat, is a very good thing to have around your kids. It will make a BIG difference.
DQ
DQ thanks so much for your posts. I am one of the guilty who didn't want to hear most of what you had to say. I am guilty of overanalyzing every move H made to the point of just needing someone to hit me with a stick. It hasn't been until the last couple of months really that I have truly been able to let go and find myself and KNOW that no matter what, I'll be ok.
The funny part is, now that I'm at that place, he is coming around and I'm now the one that is unsure of what I truly want.
As for the article on being the WAS "BFF", it is the route that I have gone and it is painful and gut-wrenching and definately not for the faint of heart. It has also contributed to most of what I'm feeling now. Trying to be someone's friend when they are NOT being your friend in return, let alone acting like someone who even likes you very much will eventually take its toll on you. I am speaking only of my personal experiences, but had I taken Puppy's and many other wise peoples advice and went dark, hell even dim, I would be in a much better frame of mind and be much more receptive to the positive changes that are happening in our sitch. I have just been burnt one too many times and to be brutally honest, I just don't believe a word that he says and only about 1/2 of what he does. So we will just have to see.
I just wanted to say thank you for putting it out there for all to read, because as much as people don't want to read it, it needed to be said. Puppy, you know I think you rock too, even when I didn't listen, I always knew you were right.
Hi DQ,
Could you check out my thread? I have a WAH and I have been doing things differently (for the good) and he says he is happy to see my changes and also is sad that i wasn't behaving that way when we were together. Anyway, he sees the changes in me- comments all of the time about them. He is still attracted to me (this is totally not an issue) and even wants me to "do or send things" to him (even though he is with OW). what do you think I should do give your experience. It seems like you're coming at this at a slightly different angle.... Right now nothing has changed in our sitch in about 10 months. We're in contact (good conversations), but haven't really moved in either direction to reconcile or be done for good.
thanks!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1493509&page=1#Post1493509
S&S....I have read through your painful journey through these past months. You are one strong person. Wow! I was on pins and needles for updates about the baby situation while you were posting that. So I'm just letting you know that I was reading along with your stuff. Again, wow.
I wanted to reach out to you then but could see you were on your own path, trying to be sweet and kind, and I just couldn't bare to say anything, you know? The effort behind DB'ing and the love that pours out of you LBS's is just amazing. I hate to say this because it will sound like I am casting blame on him, but I wish to hell my ex-h had DB'd me, even just a little bit. On me, a little DB'ing would have gone a long way. I seem not to be the norm in that way though. I'm just saying the immense love and compassion you showed during your H's lowest moments was inspiring.
Truthfully, I think in your case, your H's OW is actually gambling, not the OW. I don't see how you can win against that particular type of OW. He needs help. I have lost track of whether or not he is seeking it? I hope so, for his sake, as the father of your kids, and for himself, even if you two don't make it.
If you could go back and change how you handled things, I know you would have taken a stand much earlier and listened to people who said go dark...but in the end, I hope you do at least take away from this whole thing your huge capacity to LOVE through crisis. Going dark on him is probably what would have lessened your pain and anguish by not prolonging the time you were in limbo with him...but no love is ever wasted. Whatever love you gave him wasn't in vain, because it helped YOU. It also helped your children.
You will laugh about this, but one of your posts referred to him as "Captain F*cktard, leading of the one man dumbass parade" and I laughed so f-ing hard when I read that, that I copied it to an email to a friend who had a cheating spouse in the past (ie: she understood the meaning very well!) And we both just laughed and laughed, and now I throw it out there now and then still, just to make her laugh. I don't know why that one made me laugh so hard, it was just the way it rolled out in your post that day. I wanted to hug you while I was cracking up over my coffee!
aretemesia - I went and posted on your thread too, sweetie.
DQ
DQ,
Thanks for responding.
And yes, that is what I am trying to get out of this. He already came home from leaving me, on a bed of lies. Even though we discussed how things were going to be different and what we needed to do to make our M better (HONESTY being a big one), by him OMITTING the fact that he had been involved with this person the whole time he was gone, be it physical or not, he invalidated the whole attempt at reconciliation. Some might say, including OW2, "whats wrong with WAH having friends". And my response to that is nothing as long as they are not HIDDEN for years (BTW: Never even heard of this woman even though, come to find out, they have been "friends" and co-workers FOR 10 YEARS.
Sorry for the rant. I just can't believe what a fool I am.
All that being said, I've drawn the line in the sand with the poly because I need to be sure (in some other way besides what he tells me) that he is being COMPLETELY HONEST about this relationship.
I think this is the last straw for me.
Dug-In...ok I get it now. You would want him to prove via polygraph that he didn't sleep with OW2, not just talk to her inappropriately. You have suspicions that he was physically involved with her during your separation and he denies it, so you would want him to prove it to you. Gotcha.
Wellll....that's a tough one but the bottom line is, if he is innocent he will happily take the test! He may grumble and be offended, but he would comply to prove his innocence! Now whether that is the right answer or not, I have no idea. All I know is that, even given my indiscretions, if my ex-h accused me of an indiscretion that wasn't true, I would happily prove it to him in whatever way he needed me to.
DQ
DQ--
OMG! I remember when Sugar wrote that, too! I almost peed my pants laughing! I called two or three girlfriends and told them it, too! It rated higher than my personal favorite from the start of my own sitch--
I called my DH the Dean of the Do As I Say Not As I Do Academy for Moral Incompetents.
I agree, it was the way it just flowed out of her post that day that made it so funny!
Sugar-- You are one that helped me to learn unconditional love for my DH. I figured if you could do it, despite all that your H was putting you through, I could do no less.
Living God's blessigns with grace and dignity~
SMW
Puppy, you know I think you rock too . . .
Yeah, since you know my real name, you know I'm a rock star!!! hahahah
Puppy
DQ thanks for the kind things you wrote and you are right to think that if you had posted to me, I would have listened...but not HEARD you. I also think that in large part the gambling is his addiction, but because she is an addict too he is addicted to that feeling of it being "ok". Now that you mention it, I remember posting that about him, sometimes I just get on a rant, but the credit for f*cktard has to go to our darling Ms. Imp. She improved my grammatical skills by leaps and bounds when she was around. I'm glad I could make someone laugh, even a little during this mess.
SMW that was such a nice thing to say. Its hard to love someone when they can't love themselves, as you are well aware.
Puppy, you know I think you rock too . . .
Yeah, since you know my real name, you know I'm a rock star!!! hahahah
Puppy
You keep some Bad Company...but in the end you know you are a RockStar!!!!!
Just wanted to say thanks to you and again DQ, this is a valuable thread for those that have the courage to read and believe it.
What can I say, I'm "radioactive," baby, and it's good to be FREE!
Puppy
What can I say, I'm "radioactive," baby, and it's good to be FREE!
Puppy
You'll always be a Queen to me, tho!
Hi DQ,
This is probably getting old but if you have time, could you please look at my thread. It is in newcomers. It is only one thread, so it is not THAT much to read. You may have the magic perspective to help break our limbo.
I will bump it up so it is easy to find.
Thanks so much.
It is called I'm Clueless Sherlock...
Hi DQ,
This is probably getting old but if you have time, could you please look at my thread. It is in newcomers. It is only one thread, so it is not THAT much to read. You may have the magic perspective to help break our limbo.
I will bump it up so it is easy to find.
Thanks so much.
It is called My Very Own Thread! I'm Clueless Sherlock
Hi Down...I went and read your thread...I will be back with some thoughts, but maybe we oughta move it over to the SSM forum, given your particular set if circumstances. Have you read any of my threads over there? Anyway, I will direct you to my answer after I write it....
DQ
I've read some of your threads. That is why I asked you to peek at mine. Yeah, my next thread will probably be in SSM. Other than that (that one white elephant) we are actually pretty good.
DanceQueen,
Please help me understand why my x-wife continues to have affairs with married men?
She is now temporarily living with me because she got evicted. Its a long story but basically I took her in for my daughter. She is looking for a new place asap.
Still she has a married BF she is in love with. He never offered to help her during her eviction process and now is in the hospital. Some blood clot or something. She cant go see him since its family only! 3 weeks ago she became very sick and called me for help. I took her to the ER. Only then I found out about the guy when he called her cell. I asked why didnt he come get you? Why did you call me? She just stares at me and says he couldnt. Wife in the way??? hmmmm
I guess she knows I will always be there and am a sucker. Anyway she has always gone for married men except me. I was single 26 and thought I had found a great woman. I never knew her past until it happened to me. It lasted 12 years. At yr 7 she had an affair that I found out about after friends fessed up. I tried to make it work but she did it again and we are divorced. 5 years of trying to keep my family together.
Now I have tried to talk to her about this latest affair as a friend. I explained how our daughter will never forgive her if she finds out. She was so hurt by the others and doesn ttrust her mother 100%. My X got very defensive and says she will not find out about this guy. Still he has come over to her old place and hung out. My daughter told me and she thinks he is a "friend". I fear she will put 1 + 1 together someday. NO married man hangs out at a single divorced womans place.
So I dont understand WHY my X would take that chance? She lives for our daughter but risks it all so much. Why??
I have finally thought Id gotten past the pain. We were civil but her moving back in has opened a world of agony. I tired to get her to go to her sisters in S.C. but she wouldnt due to our daughter. Also because she says she doesnt want to be far from me either. She said she cant explain why but just doesnt. I was telling her she is worth more then some guys 2nd and that Im not saying it because I want her back. I cant get over the past I said but I do want her to be happy. She said, I know we cant go back in time, and teared up. Its like she wishes she had never done it all. Is she that messed up? Am I just the safety net? DO you still love the guy you cheated on even a little? I was a good husband and am a good looking successful guy too. Still I feel like I am the hunchback of Norte Dam to her. I feel worthless. It sucks!!
sweepsr....Yes honestly, I always loved my ex-h even when I was cheating.
But here is the bottom line: I needed him to get a back bone and not be a chump. I needed him to stand up to me, stand up for himself, and be a MAN. I'm not blaming him for my A's. I blame myself 100%. But I was like a spoiled child. You can't just sit and watch a child throw a tantrum and then expect the child to learn to stop throwing tantrums. They have to be shaken out of their tantrum and shown that this behavior is not acceptable. When children are throwing a tantrum, they don't WANT to be feeling horrible like that. They WANT to be shown how to handle their own emotions and develop some coping skills. Just letting them have their tantrum and get their way teaches them that they are supposed to freak out and lose control. What else could they learn?
Similar with people who love us. We teach them how to treat us. Unfortunately, you have taught your wife that she will always be able to bulldoze right over the top of you and you will not only allow it but rescue her. She has to have respect for you in order to stop her cheating.
Please don't feel worthless. That is part of the problem. You must understand your own worth, or how will SHE ever understand it? You need to find out how to develop good boundaries and self-esteem. IF YOU DO THOSE THINGS, she might find her attraction for you again.
Read lots of books, starting with No More Mr. Nice Guy.
DQ
sweepsr....Yes honestly, I always loved my ex-h even when I was cheating.
But here is the bottom line: I needed him to get a back bone and not be a chump. I needed him to stand up to me, stand up for himself, and be a MAN. I'm not blaming him for my A's. I blame myself 100%. But I was like a spoiled child. You can't just sit and watch a child throw a tantrum and then expect the child to learn to stop throwing tantrums. They have to be shaken out of their tantrum and shown that this behavior is not acceptable. When children are throwing a tantrum, they don't WANT to be feeling horrible like that. They WANT to be shown how to handle their own emotions and develop some coping skills. Just letting them have their tantrum and get their way teaches them that they are supposed to freak out and lose control. What else could they learn?
Similar with people who love us. We teach them how to treat us. Unfortunately, you have taught your wife that she will always be able to bulldoze right over the top of you and you will not only allow it but rescue her. She has to have respect for you in order to stop her cheating.
Please don't feel worthless. That is part of the problem. You must understand your own worth, or how will SHE ever understand it? You need to find out how to develop good boundaries and self-esteem. IF YOU DO THOSE THINGS, she might find her attraction for you again.
Read lots of books, starting with No More Mr. Nice Guy.
DQ
That makes a lot of sense and it has been preached to me hundreds of times. I dont know why I dont ever take the advice but I should. I guess I dont understand why someone would take advantage of another person like that. Its so low.
I will look for the books. Thanks
SO I have read the No More Mr Nice guy book. It made a lot of sense. I have things to work on for my future relationships.
Still I wish I could understand why my X did the things she did. I think it has to do with her father splitting at age 2 and her mom dying at 11. Its like she wants the bad guy knowing full well hes not staying around and the nice guy that does stay she abuses or punishes for her father leaving.
ANyway, we had another long talk the other night.She was hurting and needed to talk about the OM. I guess she ran into her OM and family in the store. She had not seen himn in 2 weeks since he went to the hospital. They had had a couple text msgs that left more questions then answers. He looked at her while standing next to his wife and quickly turned away. She thinks there affair seems to be at the end since he was in the hospital for the last week and surrounded by his wife and kids. We sat and talked about her feelings for him. She cant even say she would want to be with him if he left her. She says its been the loneliest relationship. She told me how it started a month after she moved out in 07. She also admitted to sleeping with another co worker while we had been "reconciled" for the 5 months before she left again. She also made out with her boss too. I didnt blow up or anything. I said ouch that does hurt but it doesnt matter anymore. She said she doesnt know why she is telling me all this stuff. I figure it would add to her toxic shame (book idea) so I tried to keep the talk positive and tell her she does deserve better then that and she should get some counseling. She cried that she keeps destroying everything good in her life. Then she got scared that I would tell her secrets to our daughter. I said no, I cant hurt her like that. Im her dad. The thing is since reading the book I knew when I was starting to manipulate for my own approval or needs so I didnt.(I also shared that I was reading the book.) I told her what I thought was wrong and that I didnt approve of it. I made a hard line about this OM never being within a mile of my D. THat she will not be part of his little fantasy. Then I asked her to stop this behavior because when it does blow up our D will find out and be hurt beyond belief. She will see her mother as an eternal liar and plant a deep emotional issues in herself. Who knows how it will affect her life later on.
I really just tried to be a real friend and not expect anything from my X. I cant ever go back because of the images in my head of other men and the lies. Thats what sucks and it makes me cry. If she only knew how much she was loved. Oh well
So I told her I love her very much but I have to let her go from my heart. I know she has long ago and probably doesnt care but I needed to say it. So I got up to go to bed and she gave me a hard hug goodnight and went to our D's room to bed. This monday she moves back out to the new apartment and this temporary stay will be over. I have to say as much as it hurts having her around. I will miss her. I did one more dumb thing and gave her 800 bucks for the deposit on the apartment but I am justifying it as helping my daughter instead. If I didnt my X would end up leaving to S.C. to live with her sis and it would scare my daughter. I dont want her to have more toxic things in her life from her messed up parents.
So that my story. Still hurting and trying to push it down and be better man.
ANyway, we had another long talk the other night.She was hurting and needed to talk about the OM. I guess she ran into her OM and family in the store. She had not seen himn in 2 weeks since he went to the hospital. They had had a couple text msgs that left more questions then answers. He looked at her while standing next to his wife and quickly turned away. She thinks there affair seems to be at the end since he was in the hospital for the last week and surrounded by his wife and kids. We sat and talked about her feelings for him. She cant even say she would want to be with him if he left her. She says its been the loneliest relationship. She told me how it started a month after she moved out in 07. She also admitted to sleeping with another co worker while we had been "reconciled" for the 5 months before she left again. She also made out with her boss too. I didnt blow up or anything. I said ouch that does hurt but it doesnt matter anymore. She said she doesnt know why she is telling me all this stuff.
Sweep,
I'd love to get DQ's perspective on this, but I can't see how this can POSSIBLY be good for YOU -- to allow her to have these OM talks with you like you're her gay boyfriend or something. Don't you feel disrespected when she does this?
Then she got scared that I would tell her secrets to our daughter. I said no, I cant hurt her like that. Im her dad.
I think you should tell your wife that "I will never say anything to intentionally harm our daughter, but I will also no longer lie to cover up your affairs." Your daughter is at a critical age in her sexual and relational development, and she needs to know that at least ONE of her parents isn't lying to her.
She will also damned well use your relationship with her mother as her model for how a man should treat a woman, so handle with care. Yes, you want to be respectful and courteous to her mother, but you don't want to be a doormat.
I think there may be more takaways from the NMMNG book for
this relationship than you think -- not just for any subsequent ones.
Puppy
Hey DQ,
I've followed your sitch from the beginning and I totally admire your honesty and advice.
So now I have a question.
My W dropped the bomb on me a little over a year ago saying that she had developed feelings for her boss (27 years her senior and married). I begged, pleaded, etc. all the non-DB things and convinced her to go to C. She agreed to an appt. about 2 months after. I was the model H to her during that whole time. During that time, I asked if she had talked to her boss about her feelings and she kept saying no. So, lo and behold, one day I find a note in her car professing her love for her boss and that he is the love of her life, etc.
I asked her once more if she ever talked to him, and that all I wanted was the truth. She again denied it until I showed her the note. She admitted she talked to him and that he told her he had feelings for her. I promptly kicked her out of the house at that point. She begged to come back, so I let her back with the agreement that we were to work on the R. So while we're living together with our 2 kids, she gets angry at me all the time and refuses to talk to me about the R, saying that we can discuss it at C. We finally go to C and he asks her if there is any chance for a reconciliation, she tells him no and there's nothing that can change her mind. So we never get a chance to discuss anything. The door to her was shut and my W is a stubborn woman. Up to that point I still had no idea what was wrong with our R.
So she moves out in June and we share the kids 50/50 between both homes. My youngest has very bad eczema which flared up at the place my W was staying at. In Dec. I tell my W that I am perfectly capable of taking care of our daughters and that I'm worried about their health. So in mid-Dec. she agrees to move back home with them so we can take care of them together.
From then until now, I've DB'd my head off and are actually much closer as friends than we had been for awhile. Unfortunately she still works with the guy she had an EA with, but I do believe her this time when she says there's nothing going on. She comes home early, doesn't sneak around anymore like she did at the height of her EA. She still gets extremely defensive if the EA ever gets brought up (I think out of embarrasment and shame) and has never apologized to me for it since it wasn't physical.
She did tell me that the reason she wanted a D was due to alot of little resentments that built up over time. She's extremely introverted with no outside friends but talks to her mom and sister alot. Her dad walked out on the family when she was 6 and as long as we've been dating/married, she's always had a fear of me cheating on her even though I had never done anything like that at all. She would always ask for re-assurances. Which is why I was surprised at her EA. She's always had this notion that you can only love one person and I think when she became attracted to her boss, she felt she had to make a decision between he or I.
So right now we're great friends and I initiate all physical hugs, kisses on the cheek, etc. When I move towards her, she looks down and turns away. She has said that we are still separated even though we sleep together in the same bed. We haven't been intimate since all this started over a year ago, although she doesn't flinch anymore when I give her a hug. Sometimes if I hug her, I feel like a molester because of the way she acts. She covers her breasts and turns away. Then in the next minute she'll be laughing with me.
So my question is, what should I do to increase the intimacy level? I don't want to scare her off, but then again I feel that if we could ML just once, we'll be back together again and I think she knows that. I had asked her before how many times over the course of the year that she has felt "in the mood". She said 3 times over the whole year.
I don't know if she still has any residual feelings for her boss as she still won't talk to me about personal things. So how do I get the psychological sex switch turned back on after the WAW has turned it off?
Stuck...I will be back and address your questions shortly.
Sweepsr....you said: "She cried that she keeps destroying everything good in her life."
To me this is the most important part of your post. When a person is self-destructive, you cannot do anything about it. You can try to help, but they will turn your help around and hurt themselves and others with it. She has to be left to face her problems on her own.
I know that you are a kind-hearted man and you sincerely want to help her. But because you are not a self-destructive time machine, you simply cannot fathom what lengths she will go to to destruct herself. Being kind is not going to help her, no matter how you wish it would. If a friend found YOU in need and was kind to YOU, then it WOULD help you. But that is because you are not a self-destructive time bomb.
We can't apply certain types of help to certain problems, yet that is what you are doing. You are trying to help her with kindness, yet this will not have any effect. If anything, your kindness toward her when you SHOULD be angry at her, will cause her to further self-destruct.
She knows that she is being unkind, hurtful, and downright cruel. And she is struggling to try to figure herself out and find out why she does these things. In order to TRULY help her, what you need to do is step aside and allow her to feel the consequences of her actions. THIS is the only thing that may cause her to change and try to help herself.
As long as you allow her to place you in the "friend zone" and you listen to her pitiful stories, she cannot be helped by this. She can only feel worse and worse about herself, and have less and less respect for you because you are helping her self-destruct.
You are such a good person, and it is so difficult for a good person to respond in a way that to them will feel cruel. So to you, it would feel as if you are being cruel if you simply told her "sorry hon, I can't listen to your story any longer, you'll have to find someone else to talk to". You would feel like a bad friend to do this. You would feel like you are being cruel or possibly forcing her off a ledge and you would be afraid of what she might do next. BUT...this is only because you are not a mental health professional and therefore you can't imagine all the ways that you are currently enabling and approving of her self-desctructive behavior. You think you are being kind, but in fact, you are helping her keep in a state of non-growth and limbo by enabling her bullcrap.
So be a good man, not a nice man. Do the right thing, not the easy thing. It will not be easy for you to set a boundary upon her and not listen to her anymore...but that IS the right thing. The right thing is rarely the easy thing.
DQ
Stuck, I will make a couple of quotes and comments, and then I'll make a general statement to you about your sitch.
You said: "She begged to come back, so I let her back with the agreement that we were to work on the R. So while we're living together with our 2 kids, she gets angry at me all the time and refuses to talk to me about the R, saying that we can discuss it at C."
I know hindsight is 20/20 so you probably already realize that it was a mistake to let her come back with the agreement that you were to work on the R, only to have her refuse to talk about it later? Why did she beg to come back anyway? I'm just curious about that part. She was just afraid to find her own place or....?
You said: "So in mid-Dec. she agrees to move back home with them so we can take care of them together."
So this sounds like she agreed to come home because it would be more convenient to take care of the children together, but she never agreed to work on the R this time, correct?
You said: "Unfortunately she still works with the guy she had an EA with, but I do believe her this time when she says there's nothing going on. She comes home early, doesn't sneak around anymore like she did at the height of her EA. She still gets extremely defensive if the EA ever gets brought up (I think out of embarrasment and shame) and has never apologized to me for it since it wasn't physical."
I have to wonder, why do you think it wasn't physical? Because she said it wasn't? Also I have to wonder, did she and the OM have a formal "break up" or what? How did they stop their affair? If you don't have a lot of details about this, then how can you believe her that its over? Unless maybe there is some detail you've left out, like that he dumped her and you saw the evidence of it.
You said: "I don't know if she still has any residual feelings for her boss as she still won't talk to me about personal things. So how do I get the psychological sex switch turned back on after the WAW has turned it off?"
I'm going to take a guess here and tell you that you may not ever get it turned back on. It sounds to me like there is too much resistance on her part to reconcile with you. If she won't even talk about the R, still considers you two to be separated, only came back home because it was easier to help the kids....well, that doesn't sound like much hope. I don't mean to be a downer and maybe there is something that I have missed, but to me it sounds like she is just waiting this out and will leave again at her earliest opportunity. In the meantime, both you and she are in limbo and are unhappy.
I'm going to give you some straight up advice that you probably won't like: I think you should ask for a separation again, WITHOUT having any plan on working things out...and do NOT ask for counseling again, unless it is counseling for the children or the family together to prepare you for the pain of separation and possibly divorce. In other words, I think you should begin to move on, and that YOU should be steering the "moving on" ship by asking for the separation.
What you are doing right now, even though it is loving and courageous, is going to do nothing but continue to turn her off. You have allowed her to dictate what will and what will not happen during this whole thing (other than the inital throwing her out, which was the best thing I've read in your sitch so far). This has caused her to have no respect for you and for her to just feel that she is in control. Unfortunately, when a confused, frightened WAW is in control, you can expect the ship to toss and turn and probably end up shipwrecked.
If instead, you were to totally take control of steering this ship, then at the very minimum you can make sure it doesn't crash and your kids are protected as much as possible.
It is painful, yes I know. It is risky, yes that too. She may just say something like "oh GREAT, I WAS actually thinking we might be improving here and there might be a chance, but OH NO you have to go and ruin it, fine have your separation, we are DONE!" If she does say this, don't buy it. It will just be a reaction. From everything you are describing, she has no intention of trying to reconcile with you. So ... IMO ... the ONLY thing you might do that MIGHT cause her to want to reconcile is to pull the plug on her control and take it back.
I'm so sorry when I give advice like this because I so much want it to NOT be true. But when a WAW has it in her mind that she has all the control, then it is like a death sentence to her H and to the marriage. Try to keep in mind and remember that she doesn't actually WANT control of the ship. What she wants is to be happy but she is confused about how that can happen. She is convinced that being with you will not and is not making her happy. So...give her the opposite, for real this time. I know you were separated before, but I suspect she felt your presence hovering over her and wanting her back the whole time. This time, separate with the intention of moving on and you might get a different reaction from her.
And finally....
I don't buy it that the A wasn't physical. I also figure that the OM is a dirtbag and that the A will start up again at some point as long as she is still working there. And even if she changed jobs, her heart is still available, so another A will probably start up at the new job.
To me, the only tool you really have at your disposal, is in being able to take the power back IF you can stomach the risks involved.
Stuck I'm so sorry for your sitch. It makes me cry, really. How I wish that my ex-h had had the bright idea to do a DB plan or anything, as it would have worked on me. And it makes me so sad when some of these WAW's just don't seem to notice.
HOWEVER....having said that, Stuck you really must face your reality which seems to be telling you that she is willing to keep wiping her feet on you if you keep being willing to lay down and take it.
Wish I had something more cheerful to say....
Hang in there and feel free to ask more Q's.
DQ
Stuck...I will be back and address your questions shortly.
Sweepsr....you said: "She cried that she keeps destroying everything good in her life."
To me this is the most important part of your post. When a person is self-destructive, you cannot do anything about it. You can try to help, but they will turn your help around and hurt themselves and others with it. She has to be left to face her problems on her own.
I know that you are a kind-hearted man and you sincerely want to help her. But because you are not a self-destructive time machine, you simply cannot fathom what lengths she will go to to destruct herself. Being kind is not going to help her, no matter how you wish it would. If a friend found YOU in need and was kind to YOU, then it WOULD help you. But that is because you are not a self-destructive time bomb.
We can't apply certain types of help to certain problems, yet that is what you are doing. You are trying to help her with kindness, yet this will not have any effect. If anything, your kindness toward her when you SHOULD be angry at her, will cause her to further self-destruct.
She knows that she is being unkind, hurtful, and downright cruel. And she is struggling to try to figure herself out and find out why she does these things. In order to TRULY help her, what you need to do is step aside and allow her to feel the consequences of her actions. THIS is the only thing that may cause her to change and try to help herself.
As long as you allow her to place you in the "friend zone" and you listen to her pitiful stories, she cannot be helped by this. She can only feel worse and worse about herself, and have less and less respect for you because you are helping her self-destruct.
You are such a good person, and it is so difficult for a good person to respond in a way that to them will feel cruel. So to you, it would feel as if you are being cruel if you simply told her "sorry hon, I can't listen to your story any longer, you'll have to find someone else to talk to". You would feel like a bad friend to do this. You would feel like you are being cruel or possibly forcing her off a ledge and you would be afraid of what she might do next. BUT...this is only because you are not a mental health professional and therefore you can't imagine all the ways that you are currently enabling and approving of her self-desctructive behavior. You think you are being kind, but in fact, you are helping her keep in a state of non-growth and limbo by enabling her bullcrap.
So be a good man, not a nice man. Do the right thing, not the easy thing. It will not be easy for you to set a boundary upon her and not listen to her anymore...but that IS the right thing. The right thing is rarely the easy thing.
DQ
Puppy
Thanks for the insight DQ. I totally agree with you with every point mentioned. In fact, I wouldn't still be in this R if I didn't see any forward progress in our R. If you were to ask me 4 months ago if we could be where we are now, I would say no way.
So that part of me still has some hope, although I'm detached enough that if I came home and she wasn't there, I'd be fine. In fact, several times as recently as a week and a half ago, I told her point blank that while I do love her, I don't NEED her and she was more than welcome to walk out the door with no regrets. I forgave her for what she did and that's that.
In the same conversation about a week ago, I told her everything that I thought was wrong in our past relationship and what she's doing wrong now. I carefully watched her body language and when I hit a point that she disagreed with, I switched it in a way that seemed to make sense to her. All the while she actually sat there and listened when in the past, she would have walked out the door and driven off. Afterwards, she thanked me for talking to her.
And that's what gives me a sliver of hope. In the past two R conversations that she started a little of and I pushed, she actually thanked me for talking to her and she had put a few changes in place. This was the first "thank you" for anything in over a year. And she actually sat and listened rather than just stewing like a punished child.
Sorry should have mentioned this earlier.
That's why I was wondering if it was time for me to push the next level and address her intimacy issue. I seriously doubt she even realizes she's doing it. In our conversations, she admitted that she didn't remember have the history re-writing she was doing.
So like your sitch where you said you wish your H would have done something shake you and make you realize what you were doing, I was wondering if I should do the same.
I can't make her fall in love with me. But if I make her aware of the blocks that she's putting up, maybe I can have her lower them enough to get in. I feel the trust thing has always been an issue with her and I've been re-establishing the trust with her a little at a time. 4 months ago she actually told me she was afraid to be in the same room with me and would call the cops. Now we sit on the bed talking. Crazy times indeed.
So with that I do have hope, but I don't know if I should wait another couple of weeks to address the intimacy thing or just push ahead and tell her the issue head on. I am detached and confident so I really feel like I have nothing to lose but everything to gain.
Maybe you could say what were some specific things you wanted your ex-H or even current one to do?
Stuck...I'm possibly going to be away from the boards for a few days, so I just wanted to comment real quick...with hopefully more to come later.
My sitch with my ex-h was apparently different than most people, in that I WANTED him to pursue me, and it was his lack of pursuit of me for our whole marriage that caused me to finally leave. When I did leave, I begged him to pursue me and date me. He claimed he would, but he never did. From what I read around here, this is abnormal and usually the WAS is not wanting to be pursued. I just want to make that clear so you don't confuse the two sitches...what would have worked on me apparently wouldn't work on most WAS's.
And the other difference in my sitch than many others, is that I ALWAYS want to talk. I will talk about R issues, good OR bad, at any time. I ALWAYS want to discuss what went right OR what when wrong. So when I hear a story like yours where one spouse simply refuses to talk, this is one I can barely relate to. Talking is essential to communication, right? So without talking, you are in big trouble IMO.
Now as to your Q's regarding intimacy...I fear that anything you try to do right now to re-establish sex with her will just run her off. I get what you are saying about having nothing to lose and everything to gain. But...it doesn't seem like she is going to see the point in re-establishing intimacy with a man she is barely communicating with. Her husband or not, she is giving you a very large message by refusing to talk to you. Yes of course she is "off" and is confused and we wish we could break through her barriers and convince her that she needs to open up to you again in order for anything to improve...but I still don't see where she has indicated at all that she is wanting anything to improve.
It sounds like the recent R discussions you had were good and were the beginning to possible future discussions...but after over a year of no physical intimacy and no actual communication, how is she expected to be open to it?
You said: "I can't make her fall in love with me. But if I make her aware of the blocks that she's putting up, maybe I can have her lower them enough to get in."
I guess this sort of confuses me. You may not realize it, but you are still basically trying to "trick" her into loving you again or "getting in" somehow.
What reason do you want to get in?
Maybe that is what I don't understand. Its one thing to try and save your marriage. Its totally something else to try and trick someone into letting their barriers down so you can "get in". Please don't be offended by this commment, I'm just doing some reflective listening to you and sending back to you your words from a different perspective so you can maybe see how she thinks you are coming across. No matter what you do, you will be seen as manipulative.
You did not address what I actually advised you in my first response, ie: asking her for a separation again and to begin moving on.
I am wondering, will you ONLY do this if she forces you to? Because if that is the case, then you are still not willing to take back control of the ship. This is not a challenge to you to ask for a separation, its just a challenge to you to challenge your OWN thinking about who has the control here. She obviously does, but do you see how that is a turn off to her?
DQ
"Talking is essential to communication, right? So without talking, you are in big trouble IMO."
I totally agree. The problem is that my W has never been much of a talker. I've had to do a fair share of mind reading over the 17 years of our R. She was just never taught how as her mom never opens up to her own emotions. Her sister even told me that their family really don't process and communicate emotions very well. So that part I'm used to and trying to get her to see the benefits of talking.
In terms of the physical intimacy, my W was never the touchy feely type and hasn't initiated sex in at least two years. I don't know if it was a hormonal change from her last pregnancy, but she just wasn't the type to get physical. She likes sex, but doesn't like to admit it. It's weird.
She also seems to still listen to what I tell her. Like she wanted a boob job very badly and I had told her I was supportive of it, but to be aware of the risks. She then changed her mind.
"I guess this sort of confuses me. You may not realize it, but you are still basically trying to "trick" her into loving you again or "getting in" somehow.
What reason do you want to get in?"
It's not really trying to "trick" her into loving me. It's looking for the right way to get through to her. For example, some people write love letters, some like to talk, etc. With each positive tipping point that seems to attract her back to the R, I try to see what reaches her. And I want to get "in" to go back to being in a M.
I do understand the idea of separating again, however it took all of my DB efforts to get back to this point where we are actually together and friendly. Originally I would say that she did it for the kids, but there's that something else there that tells me its not. I think her A shook her personal beliefs and home could very well represent some kind of stability.
As far as the A, I can never really be sure that it's over, but can go back into trusting her. She did return all of his things after I kicked her out and has had no real contact with him outside of work which is in a busy clinic.
My next step is to see if she'll go out to lunch with me alone. Then after that a movie together the following week. And then proceed to dinner the week after. If she's receptive to all that, I think things would work out but they have to be at her pace. It's like she's a stray dog that's wandered into my yard. I have to show that it's safe, secure and not make any sudden movements or she'll bolt.
I am getting the control back in our R. She does listen to me and is no longer confrontational and I also have no fear in our R any more. I do know how lack of control is a turn off.
I guess I'm looking for unique ideas as to what could "turn her on". Just suggestions that worked for you.
DanceQueen -- this has been very illuminating. I'm curious about this:
I dated lots of guys during my separation, but I really longed for my ex-h to pursue me like that. I kept giving him chances and telling him I was slipping away.
During our most recent convo, where WAW -- who is in a distance EA at the moment with limited opportunities to see OM -- basically said that whatever "else" happens it has to start with friendship, I mentioned setting boundaries.
She said something to the effect of "I understand if you're not in an emotional place to handle friendship right now, so you'll have to set the boundaries."
To which I replied, "Perhaps it would be better if we mutually negotiated the boundaries. Because I don't think mine would be the same as yours."
WAW asked for clarification, which I was somewhat reluctant to give, and so said, "I'll put it this way -- there've been at least 3 occasions in the past couple weeks when it took all the will-power I could muster not to step forward and kiss you."
I expected a kind of "eeewww, I don't think of you that way," but what I got instead was..."Well, there are all kinds of relationships aren't there?"
Um? Is this some kind of suggestion that romantic pursuit would not be unwelcome?
You should have asked her what she meant by that plain and simple.
Yeah, that sounded like either an opening, or wishful thinking.
Based on what I've heard from many other situations, however, she could go cold at any time again - so don't let it keep you from being patient until the next warm response.
Stuck, you said: "I guess I'm looking for unique ideas as to what could "turn her on". Just suggestions that worked for you."
I'm going to be blunt once again. I think you are still so far away from the point of trying to physically turn her back on to sex that you should just put this out of your mind for now.
Your wife is still in the position of control and doesn't want to be. She wants to be happy. She is currently still convinced that she isn't happy with you.
I don't see any way around this without either you doing something to shake the whole thing up, or both of you agreeing to counseling and agreeing to working on the relationship. Without her agreeing to it, then you are still trying to coerce her. And this applies to the whole relationship.
Now how to get her to WANT to agree to work on it and talk?
I'm trying gently to tell you that you are acting without a backbone. And this will not get her to want to try. It will keep her feeling that she is unhappy but is in control of the situation, a position she doesn't want.
You said: "The problem is that my W has never been much of a talker. I've had to do a fair share of mind reading over the 17 years of our R. She was just never taught how as her mom never opens up to her own emotions."
Ok here is an example of how you are not showing back bone, and then "blaming" the "problem" on your wife. You see, this is an area in your life where you have accepted her stonewalling and helped her make excuses for "why" she is stonewalling. Instead, you should have, from the beginning, set your boundaries in stone and let her know that talking and communicating were core needs to your marriage, and you simply refuse to let her stonewall you. Would that be uncomfortable? Hell yes. But only a few times. After that, she would respect your boundary and would have talked.
We teach people how to treat us. You have taught your wife that its ok to be married to you without communicating with you. You've taught her that if she wants to run away and hide behind non-communication, you will not stand up to her. You will tip-toe around and try to find some back door to communication. She knows this now more than ever.
You said: "As far as the A, I can never really be sure that it's over, but can go back into trusting her. She did return all of his things after I kicked her out and has had no real contact with him outside of work which is in a busy clinic."
OK so this is the toughest part for me to tell you, but if you can never be realy sure that its over, then its not over. Again, you've taught her that you will be disrespected and you will not even demand that she proclaim that its over. She gets defensive and irritated when you try to talk about it, and that shuts you down. So you've taught her that you will not stand in the way of an affair going on nor even ask questions of your own wife that are obviously relevant to your marriage, because you are afraid of her defensiveness.
So stuck...I'm just not sure I can help you. I am really trying, but you are in a position of self-placed weakness within your marriage. And what a woman needs and wants is a strong man. If she is in the wrong, even if she is flailing and screeching at him, she actually wants to be put in her place. (Just as with men - its the same. My man needs to be put in his place occasionally and if I stood there and watched him act disrespectful to me but did not put him in his place, then he would immediately lose respect for me.) We all need to be strong enough to place our own boundaries and enforce them.
Here's my quick overview of what I see in your sitch:
*She has all the control, but doesn't want it. She actually wants a stronger, in-control man who will help her when she's out of control by putting her in her place. This is probably one of the reasons she fell for her boss. He is older and established and this gives her an idea of him being in control. She actually wants that as she knows that when she is in control, things don't go the right way.
*She cannot heal and move on from her A because she still works for him. Busy office or not, she is still likely "in love" with him (fog love, not real love) and waiting for another opportunity to amp up the A. Have you heard of the idea of withdrawal? A parnters have to go through the withdrawal stage in order to get completely over each other. They can't do this if they are in regular contact. And seeing each other at work everyday - even if they don't talk - is regular contact. She is shutting you down every time you try to bring it up because she is still in an A with him, in her heart and mind, if not more.
*You are doing great in many respects and you love her very much. DB has obviously helped you tremendously. But I think that you have missed some key points in your DB learning process...and those points are the ones I'm making above. You are focused on getting the sex back into the picture, but I still don't get that. This is a woman who won't even really talk to you about her true feelings. Typically, a woman cannot feel ready for physical intimacy until she has acheived emotional intimacy ... so it would seem she is still miles away from this with you.
Stuck, I hope you don't feel I am beating up on you. Please recall in my first post on this thread, that I said to people to let me know and ask me questions IF they are ready to hear my cold, hard, truth approach. If you are feeling beat up, then you probably aren't ready to hear my cold, hard approach. But please recognize that I am trying to give you clues that really COULD help you....if you will be open to it. So far, it seems you are not really open to what I am saying, because you are too afraid to lose her. I can understand that and I will pray for your sitch...hang in there.
DQ
Smiley....your situation is kind of all over the map right now, which I do believe is because of your wife's EA. I don't think she has any clue as to what she wants or what she is doing. She is apparently in th midst of an MLC or some kind of manic episode...but in her mind, (as with all MLC'ers), it is all your fault that she is being this way. So your sitch is a difficult one to DB...but every time I read your updates I do see tiny clues here and there that she *might* have some kind of real breakthrough. And by that I mean, a personal breakthrough of her own, where she may become more clear about her own life and what is going on, and stop being so up-and-down-here-and-there. But this is still something that she will have to come to herself.
SP - I can tell you one horrible truth that might apply to your sitch. IF YOU DID kiss her, and if it did then turn into more (ie: sex or close to it), she will likely only be doing it because she is so worked up over her EA guy in her mind that she will enjoy being physical, but she may be fantasizing about him and not be present there with you.
Therefore, I would not recommend that you do pursue her that way at all, even if she seems open to it. From what you are describing of her school girl crush on Peter Pan, then she is too wrapped up in that fantasy to really *be* with *you*.
In my case, and in the quote of mine you posted, I was straight up telling my ex-h to please pursue me and date me. In the 6 months we were separated, we had sex once and it was because I initiated it. I wanted more but I wanted him to step up and try to show me he wanted me. But ... when he searched his heart fully inside and out, he found he really *didn't* want me. Even though I was the one who left, it was actually him who wanted out. And after all we had been through and all I had put him through, I do understand why he didn't want me that way. To him, it would have felt like he was disrespecting himself to *go after* me. So I'm just sharing this with you to show you that this is totally different than your sitch, so you can't assume your wife feels anything like I did.
Your DB coach advice seems so spot on for your sitch, when you post about what he has had to say. So I've been reading along and praying that you do find resolution with her. I doubt I can add any advice to your sitch, other than, be VERY WARY of physical intimacy with her, as she is likely fantasizing about Peter.
DQ
Hi DQ,
Currently, W and I are separated. W is impatiently waiting for OM to separate from his brand-new W so they can start their fantasy life dating. I'm not sure if OM's W is aware of the reason (EA). For moral conscience reasons, I was considering notifying the OM's W anonymously, so that she can make her own choices with a bit of awareness (not details) and perhaps (selfishly) it might disrupt the EA, but then someone here made a comment that seemed to fit: "You can't make the relationship end....it has to happen on its own. Especially in a situation were your wife has implied that she felt you are "controlling". Remember she is addicted to the NRE and like any other addiction...it won't stop until she wants it too."
Since my W has mentioned 'controlling', I didn't know how to address that (or discover if it was true), but just started reading "No more Mr. Nice Guy" after hearing about it on this board and finding some close similarities and interesting growth opportunities for me.
I'm wondering if I am not showing enough backbone? After only 6 weeks of this (Stage 1 negative emotion reduction - according to my DB coach), how standoffish or assertive should I be about EA and general discussions with W about S6, finances, etc. W is calm and collected around me, i.e. not throwing EA in my face, but freely talks bad about me to her well-meaning friend (in a similar position I believe).
I would love to have your perspective on this.
+
Brian - A couple of questions:
1. Did your wife straight up tell you she wants out so she can pursue this other married man? Or are you getting this from other sources, while she is telling you that she wants out for some other reason?
2. What kind of "controlling" issues has your wife brought up? Was it ever brought up before her A, or only after it started?
3. How do you know it is an EA not a PA? Only from your wife's word?
These answers will help me give you my opinion! Thanks!
DQ
Initially, she said she had grown tired over the years of me 'losing my legs' (emotionally distant, not contributing to the fun of the family, letting her do all the cooking, activity planning, and vacation planning) and wanted to take a vacation as a wife. That 'vacation' started with 1 week, then 2 weeks, then decided she wanted to separate.
During this first 2 weeks, I learned from her friend that she was lusting after a guy from work and was attempting to talk him out of getting married. Apparently, they've had some hiking/dinner dates even while he was getting married. She has booked a vacation (for the destination we were planning on before the bomb, I believe) and I don't know if it is with OM or not. I don't have any evidence of a PA, but she is certainly lusting after him with fantasy eyeballs to the hilt.
She did admit in a conversation we had that she was dating OM, but said not sleeping with him. Her words - no evidence either way. They work at the same company.
'Controlling' was never brought up before the bomb, and in fact the sudden separation shocked most of us (including family and friends which she has mostly disconnected from). She has said that I can be controlling, but didn't give any details.
Her friend told me that W has stated that she doesn't have any romance for me anymore, and that W frequently states how angry she is with me for anything I do. W has not shown any anger toward me except once regarding some stories my S6 told her that were oddly exaggerated.
She told me 2 weeks ago that she wasn't ready to get divorced, since she was still confused and unsure, which is why the separation would be a good thing for both of us. For me to re-establish myself as a man, and for her to figure things out. Since I moved to an apartment, she moved back to the house. In the last three weeks, she has put away (eradicated?)all photos and reminders of me, and I have moved all of my personal belongings and home office out of the house.
BTW - I'm okay with tough love and cold hard truths. I've been following Puppy's threads enough to have some perspective. :-)
DQ,
Your words have never rung truer. Thanks for the 2x4 back into reality. I love your points and will start applying them. The only thing I can't do is the separating again, but the establishing boundaries. Yes.
Thanks again for your help.
DQ,
I know you're busy, and you also mentioned that you were leaving soon for a few days, but if you get a chance, can you pop in over on Thinker's thread on the Newcomer's board? There's a fascinating discussion going on over there about "being a man" vs. passively "giving space" to a wayward wife, and I think the group -- and esp. Thinker -- could benefit from hearing your perspective as the woman.
thanks,
Puppy
Damn you guys are right. I keep wanting to get her approval and love. I knew deep down I should not have let her stay with me but here is why I did. She would end up leaving the state and going 700 miles away to her sisters. My D would not go since I have custody and it would crush her. I didnt want some abandonment issue on my D shoulders. I also didnt want my D looking at me like I was some heartless bastard. I didnt want to lose her.
NOw she is leaving Monday into an apartment that I paid the security on. Ya I know!!! [censored]!
You know i was doing ok with myself until her drama. I was not thinking about her or who was doing her. Now its all i can think about. I keep throwing that imaginary red stop sign in my head but 30 seconds later I am day dreaming again. I want her to leave but I know its going to be so hard again and Im scared. I dont want to cry again and break down. It hurts to damn much.
I thought she was my soul mate and its so sad to know shes nothing like that. I really thought I was doing the right thing by telling her shes a good person and better then the cheating. Kind of an opposite reinforcement. But really i just wanted to be close to her some how. Im pathetic! ahhhhhh How do i break this bond in my heart? Shes slept with 4 guys since me so maybe thats the key. Be a slut and the feelings will die.
Sorry guys Im freaking out.
ANyway, we had another long talk the other night.She was hurting and needed to talk about the OM. I guess she ran into her OM and family in the store. She had not seen himn in 2 weeks since he went to the hospital. They had had a couple text msgs that left more questions then answers. He looked at her while standing next to his wife and quickly turned away. She thinks there affair seems to be at the end since he was in the hospital for the last week and surrounded by his wife and kids. We sat and talked about her feelings for him. She cant even say she would want to be with him if he left her. She says its been the loneliest relationship. She told me how it started a month after she moved out in 07. She also admitted to sleeping with another co worker while we had been "reconciled" for the 5 months before she left again. She also made out with her boss too. I didnt blow up or anything. I said ouch that does hurt but it doesnt matter anymore. She said she doesnt know why she is telling me all this stuff.
Sweep,
I'd love to get DQ's perspective on this, but I can't see how this can POSSIBLY be good for YOU -- to allow her to have these OM talks with you like you're her gay boyfriend or something. Don't you feel disrespected when she does this?
Then she got scared that I would tell her secrets to our daughter. I said no, I cant hurt her like that. Im her dad.
I think you should tell your wife that "I will never say anything to intentionally harm our daughter, but I will also no longer lie to cover up your affairs." Your daughter is at a critical age in her sexual and relational development, and she needs to know that at least ONE of her parents isn't lying to her.
She will also damned well use your relationship with her mother as her model for how a man should treat a woman, so handle with care. Yes, you want to be respectful and courteous to her mother, but you don't want to be a doormat.
I think there may be more takaways from the NMMNG book for
this relationship than you think -- not just for any subsequent ones.
Puppy
You are right. I just fell for wanting to be in her life.
DQ,
I am very proud of you for doing this.
Love,
Ali
ANyway, we had another long talk the other night.She was hurting and needed to talk about the OM. I guess she ran into her OM and family in the store. She had not seen himn in 2 weeks since he went to the hospital. They had had a couple text msgs that left more questions then answers. He looked at her while standing next to his wife and quickly turned away. She thinks there affair seems to be at the end since he was in the hospital for the last week and surrounded by his wife and kids. We sat and talked about her feelings for him. She cant even say she would want to be with him if he left her. She says its been the loneliest relationship. She told me how it started a month after she moved out in 07. She also admitted to sleeping with another co worker while we had been "reconciled" for the 5 months before she left again. She also made out with her boss too. I didnt blow up or anything. I said ouch that does hurt but it doesnt matter anymore. She said she doesnt know why she is telling me all this stuff.
Sweep,
I'd love to get DQ's perspective on this, but I can't see how this can POSSIBLY be good for YOU -- to allow her to have these OM talks with you like you're her gay boyfriend or something. Don't you feel disrespected when she does this?
Then she got scared that I would tell her secrets to our daughter. I said no, I cant hurt her like that. Im her dad.
I think you should tell your wife that "I will never say anything to intentionally harm our daughter, but I will also no longer lie to cover up your affairs." Your daughter is at a critical age in her sexual and relational development, and she needs to know that at least ONE of her parents isn't lying to her.
She will also damned well use your relationship with her mother as her model for how a man should treat a woman, so handle with care. Yes, you want to be respectful and courteous to her mother, but you don't want to be a doormat.
I think there may be more takaways from the NMMNG book for
this relationship than you think -- not just for any subsequent ones.
Puppy
You are right. I just fell for wanting to be in her life.
So, what are you going to DO about it? What's your Plan???
Puppy
My plan is to not talk with her about the OM and just be civil. She moves out Monday. I have to keep telling myself I cant help her and she has to help herself. I am continuing to flip back threw the NMMNG book and work the activities. Granted I read the book in a few days without working the steps. I just couldnt stop reading it.
Other then that I am not sure what else to do besides focus on myself like I have been until she popped up again.
For the record I have dropped 40lbs since she left in 07 and I have kept it off. My plan was and still is to get a great body back for my own confidence. its a little vain but it helps me feel stronger inside.
Despite a few set backs dealing with the house and debt she left me Ive done pretty good. The next step is I need to work on talking with women. I get to intimidated if I find them attractive.
What do you think?
Fitness: I'm doing the same thing about the 'great body' and doing pretty well. I suppose I'm simply leveraging the 15 pounds lost in the first 6 weeks of the bomb. Wow - 40lbs! Well done! It's amazing how well the exercise helps during the stressful times, too.
Women: Getting around them more will probably help - especially if the social interaction is based on a topic other than you or her. For instance, a recent MEETUP.com event for travel enthusiasts that I went to was very fun, full of conversation among everybody, and provided very very easy ice breakers. Although I'm new to being 'back in the game', my plan is to use non-suggestive and non-threatening invites such as "I'm going to go hiking tomorrow at XYZ. Do you do any hiking?", using a third topic (not me, not her) to chat about briefly. Theoretically, if they're receptive, I'll simply ask if they want to join me --- and work on not getting defensive, cowering, or back-peddling if the response is a flat, or even watered-down, "No". Even better, I'll probably go hiking anyway - as it adds to my fitness goals.
NOTE: Don't use Meetup.com events to pick up women. Use it to meet new friends, run into them a couple of times at future events (where you are having fun anyway), and just talk about stuff with them and others. The timing for a casual invite should click once you get to know them a bit better.
GOOD LUCK!
Hi DQ
I'm glad you took the time to post about your past and the research you have done about affairs.
My W is currently living with her OM
She met him in Oct and was ready to moving in with him by Christmas, I did get her to stay home until Jan 27 at which point she declared she HAD to move in with him cause she didn't want to pass up this opportinuty and have it in the back of her mind for the rest of her life. I have been fairly dark (only contact about kids/finances) and detaching as I don't think I can do much until A is over. I miss her and love her very much and am willing to give her a second chance but with new rules. If you have any other advice I'd appreciate it and you can view my posts below.
Thanks for taking the time to help us LBSs!!
first second (more background info)
third latest
a second chance but with new rules.
Have you determined what those new rules would look like?
.
So far, only following the advice of PDT and setting up a transparency/no contact plan. Working on some more with my IC.
OK I'm back and will try to catch up one at a time....
AzDad...
Your sitch sounds pretty bleak in the sense that she has said she is "dating OM but not sleeping with him". To me this is b.s. She is certainly sleeping with him, only they are just not going "all the way" or something. This is so she can say to you they are not sleeping together.
If I were you, and if you want any chance to work things out with her, I would expose to OM's wife. You mentioned that you maybe selfishly hoped that doing that would disrupt the EA/PA. Heck yes, it will. It will do more than that. It will make your wife go crazy with anger, it will make the OM hate her guts for getting him into trouble, and it will make OMW aware of what she certainly should be aware of. After the fallout, which could be very severe, one of two things will happen: either your W will feel sheepish eventually and will try to talk to you again and re-establish what is going on in your marriage....or she will act faster toward divorce. But at least there is a chance that she will come back around IF she and OM are not allowed to go any further down the road they are on.
Now lets explore what will happen if you DON'T expose?
Your wife will break up another woman's marriage as well as her own, she will chase the OM down until he has no more energy, he will then lose complete interest in her (see my other post about why affairs don't last as relationships), and she will be heartbroken and divorced and so will you and so will OM. However, she will not at this point want to come back to you. She will be too ashamed to admit her mistakes by that time. She will have a huge heartbreak (from fog love, not real love, unfortunatley they feel the same when its time for the heartbreak) and she will nurse her wounds for years to come....with YOU not in the picture at all except as being her ex-husband whom she will blame everything on.
So to me, it seems that exposure to OMW is your only hope....but I hope and wish that there would be another way.
Is there any third option to exposure or just waiting for her to ride out this wave that you haven't presented? I cannot see one but maybe I've missed something.
If it helps at all, try to think of that song by Chicago "I am the man who will fight for your honor". It might be a tear-jerker, but the part of it I want you to understand is that by exposing to OMW with the intention of saving your marriage and preventing your wife from a horrible future (ie: if she follows the road she is on with no exposure), you WILL be fighting for your wife's honor.
DQ
Welcome back, DQ!
I did just indirectly expose EA to OMW, to which she discussed with OM and flat out rejected the suggestion. I jumped the gun prior to your return - my apologies.
Haven't see the fallout yet, however, I did my thing and will not push it further.
At a minimum, the OM knows that 'someone' is on to him.
I think my bigger concern is that W continues to find some fault in anything that I do and badmouths me to her friends and family. She never shows her anger or annoyance with me directly. This concerns me, not that she is laying the ground of me as the bad guy so that if things work out with OM she is justified, but rather that she is purposely withholding any negative feelings toward me and flatly lying that she has any ill feelings toward me to my face.
Side note: I'm reading 'No More Mr Nice Guy' and it is an awakening for me -- to the point of changing my handle to "MrNiceGuy". :-/
ppenton...
OK I just read through all of your threads. You are doing really GREAT in your position!
You said this in one of your last thread posts: "I think I'm moving much closer to realizing W may have given me a gift as I really release my anger and forgive her (and myself for my role in the death of our M) which will help me move on more fully."
I think this is truly the place you need to be in. And for now, my opinion is that you need to detach completely from the idea that you and your W will reconcile. Notice I said "for now". This doesn't mean doom and glood necessarily, because things could change in the future.
In fact, I'm sure they will change as far as her and OM. They will not work out and when that happens, there might still be a chance for your marriage.
I would not count on it, however. Instead, count on yourself being the best person you can be no matter what happens.
I am so happy you found NMMNG as it appears to apply to your sitch directly. You now have new skills going forward in your life. Your W will notice and has noticed, and she is likely going to rebuild her attraction for you one day at a time.
In the meantime, her affair will deteriorate and eventually, the OM will have lost his lustre.
This process will take a long time however, so I think you are wise to go to attorneys and get something legal worked out. You can't really wait it out as far as finances and child support.
But you *might* be able to wait it out as far as your relationship with her and maybe when she and OM have run their course, you and she can rebuild something.
However, by that point you may want nothing to do with her.
One thing I would like people to understand is that YOUR feelings could change so drastically that you may one day think to yourself "wow, I'm so glad he/she left me, as I actually was not happy but I would not have ever realized it if he/she hadn't left me....would I take him/her back now? NO WAY IN HELL."
It seems impossible that you may feel that way someday, but its not. It actually can happen quite quickly.
DQ
HI AZ! Hey, I don't understand this part: "to which she discussed with OM and flat out rejected the suggestion".
Are you saying that you exposed to OMW, she confronted OM, OM denied everything...and somehow all this news got back to you?
DQ
Yes. It was an anonymous tip to OMW. Although OMW is probably annoyed by the pathetic approach of the information, it planted a seed and tipped of the OM. Not sure what that will actually cause, however.
How do you know that she confronted OM and that he denied? Just curious if you actually know this or are speculating?
Paraphrasing e-mail: "I have spoken with my H already today about this and have no reason to doubt his love for me or commitment to me."
{{{DQ}}}
Thanks for taking the time to read up on my sitch! I appreciate your honest feedback and I agree as time goes on I realize my R with W could result in D which is not what I want right now. However, I'm detaching more each day and building myself up for me
I do have my bad monents and miss my W very much and would love a second chance to build a new future with her.
One benefit, is I'm closer to God than I have ever been in my life and it feels wonderful. I do pray to Him for myself, my children, as well as for W and OM to get back to Him. I have made new friends and restored old friendships and I still like myself very much. My kids love me and they know I'll always be there for them. So, as hard as this has been, life is not horrible right now. Also, I pray we can reconcile but as you said when the day comes I may have moved completely on and then I can thank her for my awaking.
Hey DQ, tell me what you think:
My WAW of 15 years announced mid feb she wants a separation. The main problems:
- Not enough intimacy - We've never been a 5x a week couple (mostly 1x a month) but were trying the last two or three years to increase it and try some new things. Kinda didn't happen. She always expected me to always initiate everything but I could never read her mood. She seemed always cold and uninterested to me. I think we got into a bad loop where she was waiting for me and I was waiting for her.
- More romance - she views me more like a brother or best friend than a lover. (I always concentrated on friendship first in the marriage).
- Control - She's tired of taking care of my issues. (money, organization, etc). I agree I do need take care of more of my stuff and get a life. I've been working on this.
- Depression - I've been dealing with it on and off for the past three years - probably caused by my own MLC about my career and life goals, and also my family history (others in fam with Depr). I'm on new meds and back in counseling so maybe I can work throught it this time. It's probably hard for other people to understand. It just steals all the energy and pleasure out of life. I don't discuss details of program with her - she just doesn't want to know.
- Bored / MLC - I think she's just bored and looking for some additional excitement in life. About two years ago she started going out more, buying nicer clothes, and being more social.
---
My sitch:
1. She said I'm the nicest guy ever, appreciates all the things i do for the family and said specifically "It's not you, it's the dynamic". She doesn't want to be married like this. I take this mostly as the control thing and to work on it I'm DB'ing, GAL, and detaching.
2. Next month she would like me to move out and her BFF (also going thru a divorce) to move in. I'm going to left her know very shortly that I'm not going anywhere. It's my house and my children and I won't just leave. While this will probably help the control thing, I'm sure it will make her very angry - maybe angry enough to file for D just to get me out. (BTW- she's a lawyer and loves a good trial fight). It's a risk I have to take.
3. I'm not sure if she is having an affair. I've asked once and she assured me there was nobody "waiting in the wings" for a separation. Still I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't have something going or if she wasn't actively looking. Reasons:
- She is detached.
- She's not really my "best friend" anymore. While we talk and things are smooth between us, we don't really talk about anything important - just the business of running the household and small talk. She mostly confides in others (and so do I).
- She doesn't like to discuss feelings or relationship issues- it makes her angry. I made these mistakes the first few weeks before I started Db'ing.
- She spends nights out with friends, many of whom are single or divorced.
- She is a Facebook addict - and she "unfriended" me a few weeks ago so we could "have separate lives".
- She has lots of private conversations by phone, email, and is constantly texting. (The texting thing really drives me crazy because she's never "there" with the family - during meals, during together time, or whenever. I don't care if she ignores me, but don't ignore the children!)
Q:
1. Does it sound like a possible affair? Not that I really want to know but I guess that it will effect the dynamic so I should know what will change.
2. I'm DBing, GAL, and detaching - however - because the lack of intimacy may have been one of the bigger reasons for the proposed separation should I flirt with her? Should I try to show her I'm interested and still attracted to her? I haven't even gone there because I've always supposed it was on the other side of one of her many separation "boundaries". We've had very little contact since the separation announcement - just a few hugs. The closest we've had to any suggestive conversation or action was about possibly watching the movie "Zack and Miri" together (our schedules didn't work out so she saw it and I didn't).
3. I kinda feel too detached sometimes. Like she's not interested in me so I don't care. Is this common?
--
Given the similarities or your sitch to mine, consider picking up a copy of "No More Mr Nice Guy" (NMMNG) in text or audio version. You may be surprised by what you learn about you - I certainly was surprised.
Also, it sounds like you're still in Stage 1: "reducing the negative emotions". I would think flirting would backfire, but certainly listen to DQ's advice.
.
Yes, I'm reading a similar book about nice-guy-itis but I'll give that title a look. I've heard it mentioned a bunch of times on this forum.
Sounds like I should do some more reading about the first stage.
DQ - FYI, a chitstorm is brewing from my last action. Wish I could give you details but won't post them here.
Mr.NG - Where can I read about the chitstorm? I'm on pins and needles now. I didn't buy OMW's claim that she had no reason to suspect anything...I knew she would be all over that and the storm would follow. If you fear you are being followed by W on this thread, is that why you won't post them here?
Orangedog...I will try to get back to your sitch later today! Hang in there.
DQ
mrniceguyphx@gmail.com
I'll reply to you with more.
Ok but be careful...we are not supposed to post email addys...if you can still delete that, do it now...
DQ
I didn't know the rule and it won't let me delete it now. Sorry DB Admins.
Hi DQ,
Quick update: Yesterday my W asked me if she could join me and our sons at church on Easter Sunday, (I was very surprised) which I said yes and she asked if I was ok with this and I said that I am. This is the first time since before she left in which she wanted to do something with us as a "family". I don't have any expectations and will enjoy myself at the services. Then I’ll take my boys to my parents for Easter celebration and my W will go back to OM, she is not planning on doing anything with her family.
OrangeDog...
At first glance, it doesn't sound to me like your W is having an affair, but she is definitely gearing up and ready to be and act single again. I think for some people, the lure of the freedom of feeling single can be just as compelling as an actual affair. To me that's what it sounds like your W is doing.
You mentioned your depression and MLC. I hope you are taking steps for yourself to really pull out of that over time. I do know enough about depression to understand you, but I also have some degree of it myself and I have finally had to find out on my own that I can in fact employ many mental techniques to keep it under control. Then it doesn't spill outward from me and affect my friends and family. I hope you can find that same place. And I also find that when I employ the correct mental techniques consistently over time, it tends to battle my depression almost out of existence. If I stop with the mental techniques, it comes back very quickly. So I have basically learned to live with the mental techniques running through my mind constantly, understanding finally now that if I don't, depression will come back right away. But if I do, I can have not only a depression free life but also, I can have a great positive attitude which then helps me manifest positive things in my life.
So for you and your sitch, I would say that you should spend all of your emotional energy right now toward battling depression, and not toward figuring out what your W is doing. That doesn't mean just lay down and watch her walk out the door. But it won't do you much good to stop her from wanting to leave but not have your own house in order to offer her a good positive husband to come back to, right?
You also mentioned that you have apathy toward her at times, like she doesn't want you so why bother trying. I feel sad to hear that one. I do get it though. But it makes me sad because that is largely how my husband always felt about me and us, and his in-action toward me was the reason I finally left him. He really always expected more than he gave and wouldn't give until he got. So we were always in this state of waiting for the other one to give more than they got. I did eventually give more, because it was in my nature to give even when I didn't get...but it was like he would only give 2 if I gave 3, so he was always a step behind. Somehow he wanted me to prove my love to him stronger than he proved it to me and he felt justified in this. I'm not saying this is about you, but just hear me out.
Please go check out my other thread about why affair relationships don't last. Its called "Just a bit of hope..." and its in this section. I talked about how the dynamics of male/female pursuit works. Basically in a nutshell, males have to have the urge and drive to pursue the female, or the relationship won't work. That doesn't mean he has to do more work than the female, but it means that he has to have within him enough interest and attraction and emotion for the female to PURSUE her actively. The female should be receptive to his active pursuit. When this dynamic is working, the relationship is lovely and works. But if the woman has to do the pursuit, eventually the realtionship breaks down.
So if your W has pursued you in the past and you have been receptive to her pursuit, but not actively pursuing her, then there is a lot to fix in your dynamic. Which doesn't surprise me to hear she had said "its not you, its the dynamic".
Does any of this sound like it fits you?
DQ
ppenton....that is great for your family about Easter. Not to be a downer but, she likely thinks of herself as a saint for spending a couple of hours of family time. Now she can "guilt-free" run off and spend the rest of her day with OM. Sorry, because I know you hope this is a good sign, but its not necessarily one. It is likely to be a great day for you all, and I think you should really enjoy it as it might be one of the last of its kind....but on the other hand, don't ever lose sight of the fact that she has abandoned those kids on you and her focus is only on the OM.
I know you know this, I'm not lecturing. I feel bad as I know you still wait and hope for a good sign.
The only thing that might change this for you is when her and OM crash and burn, and it will happen. It will likely take another year though.
In the meantime, look GREAT at church, make sure the kids look great, and make it seem like you have important plans later in the day so you have to rush off. Don't linger in the parking lot or ask her out to lunch after. Just assume she will rush out of there, so you rush out of there, too. Actually DO have plans too, don't just bluff.
I just have to say, I don't understand people who abandon their kids. I just don't understand it and that is one area where I can't really give advice. I always put my kids first and I would have never done what your W is doing...my ex-h is the one who abandoned our kids, apparently to punish me. So it strikes a chord with me and makes me hurt for you. I've been there.
Please hang in there...
DQ
Thanks DQ,
Thanks DQ
Yeah, I get the idea too that she's thinking of the single life. I hope she turns around soon.
Many of the tools I'm using for DB also work for depression because the end goal is the same - feel better about yourself. GAL, explore interests, exercise, sleep, eat right, treat yourself, etc. Still there's other stuff in there I need to take care of so getting through it is goal #1. I feel this problem partially contributed to the loss of the marriage and I won't let it take any more of my life away.
Your other thread was great. I've always suspected that if she came back I'd need to "pursue" more. Now I know for sure. It might be too soon but I might try to carefully sneak a flirt or nice comment in and see what happens.
Yes try it and see if it works. And by "works" you need to only look for her acting receptive to it....not hope she will jump your bones for it! LOL!
DQ
DQ says:
You mentioned your depression and MLC. I hope you are taking steps for yourself to really pull out of that over time. I do know enough about depression to understand you, but I also have some degree of it myself and I have finally had to find out on my own that I can in fact employ many mental techniques to keep it under control. Then it doesn't spill outward from me and affect my friends and family. I hope you can find that same place. And I also find that when I employ the correct mental techniques consistently over time, it tends to battle my depression almost out of existence. If I stop with the mental techniques, it comes back very quickly. So I have basically learned to live with the mental techniques running through my mind constantly, understanding finally now that if I don't, depression will come back right away. But if I do, I can have not only a depression free life but also, I can have a great positive attitude which then helps me manifest positive things in my life.
Would you be open to sharing more about the mental techniques you use to battle depression? I'm sure that I'm not only speaking for myself, but I could use some more techniques!! : )
I've been looking at "The Work" lately (Byron Katie). That technique definitely helps, but I'd like to hear what works for you.
Thanks so much, DQ.
Lucky
You bet LG!
Let me give you the first step now, and I'll come back later with more:
Basically, the first step is to just firmly decide and believe that no one can control what I think except ME. And that means....(drum roll)...that when I have depressed thoughts, I CAN CONTROL THEM.
I think most doctors and other specialists are apt to believe that you cannot control your own thoughts and that depressed people are doomed to have these thoughts. That's why they prescribe meds, because the meds can help to control thoughts, but without them, doctors seem to think it is impossible.
I used to think that, too. I used to think that my thoughts and fears and depression were beyond my control and that the "bad thoughts" were coming from something other than my own free will.
I no longer think this. Now I realize that your thoughts are a product of your own choosing, AT ALL TIMES.
Now this new way of thinking can at first in itself be very depressing, because it means that on some level, you are choosing the depressed thoughts. So why are we masochists and choose these depressed thoughts, we might ask?
But now I understand that, although yes, in a sense we are choosing the depressed thoughts, but we are only doing so out of habit. Not out of self-hatred or masochism.
So the point then is to take control of your own thoughts, now that you have the belief that you DO actually control them (not something outside of yourself or your brain by itself), then you can do something about the thoughts that are keeping you down and making you depressed.
This is similar to Learned Optimism but I haven't actually read that book. My learning came from spiritual sources, where I learned what FREE WILL actually means.
Free will is literally, the freedom to believe and think whatever you want. No one can force you to think anything or believe anything...it is the only true freedom we really have is our own thoughts and your WILL comes from that same source.
So start by carrying this thought around with you for several weeks or days. Remind yourself when you find yourself thinking a depressed thought, or a worry or an angry thought, that YOU can control what you think. Don't try to control it or change it yet, just remind yourself that you CAN.
It took me many months/years to really get into the groove of this, and the accepting and believing I had control over my thougths was the longest part of the process....so let that part sink in well!
DQ
ppenton....that is great for your family about Easter. Not to be a downer but, she likely thinks of herself as a saint for spending a couple of hours of family time. Now she can "guilt-free" run off and spend the rest of her day with OM. Sorry, because I know you hope this is a good sign, but its not necessarily one. It is likely to be a great day for you all, and I think you should really enjoy it as it might be one of the last of its kind....but on the other hand, don't ever lose sight of the fact that she has abandoned those kids on you and her focus is only on the OM.
I know you know this, I'm not lecturing. I feel bad as I know you still wait and hope for a good sign.
The only thing that might change this for you is when her and OM crash and burn, and it will happen. It will likely take another year though.
In the meantime, look GREAT at church, make sure the kids look great, and make it seem like you have important plans later in the day so you have to rush off. Don't linger in the parking lot or ask her out to lunch after. Just assume she will rush out of there, so you rush out of there, too. Actually DO have plans too, don't just bluff.
I just have to say, I don't understand people who abandon their kids. I just don't understand it and that is one area where I can't really give advice. I always put my kids first and I would have never done what your W is doing...my ex-h is the one who abandoned our kids, apparently to punish me. So it strikes a chord with me and makes me hurt for you. I've been there.
Please hang in there...
DQ
Thanks again, {{{DQ}}}
I am hanging in there and I know if W shows up to church that it will be more for her to feel better than for wanting to be with me. I'm just glad she wants to spend some time with the kids. And I do have plans for the day as we will go to my parents house and some of my uncles will be there and so will be lots of good food!
I also do not understand how people can leave there children either, I would not trade places with my W for anything. I love these kids way too much to not be here day in and day out
As of right now, I am willing to hang in there as long as it takes God to soften her heart. I know He can do it just not sure if W is willing to listen or open up to Him.
ppenton...You have the right attitude, and I know you will end up a happier person than you ever thought you were before after all this, no matter which way it turns out. Have a great Easter!
LG - More on turning around my depression and depressed thoughts...
Some very tragic things have happened to me in my life, and over time, they brought to my attention how very precious and joyous life is. I know that sounds like the opposite of what should happen. Tragic things should have added to my depression. In the short term, they did, of course. But in the long run, I found that I can't afford to lose any time, because we all die, those closest to us and we ourselves, all have to go. When I was faced with several deaths of people close to me and then several other tragic events all happened at around the same time, I had to just find that space in my heart that knows that I am *good* with all my people. In case any of them go tomorrow or I do, I have to be able to know for sure that I am on good terms with them and they have heard recently that I love them.
Just one of the tragic deaths as an example, I had a close girlfriend die when we were both aged 23, and the last time I had spoken to her we had a fight and ended on very bad terms. All I could do at her funeral was regret that phone call and whatever the fight had been about, and wish to God I could do just that one call over and tell her instead how I loved her and how much she meant to me.
After this experience, I was changed forever. Then all the other deaths and tragedies happened, and I became even more sure of my position that I must make ammends with everyone and stay on good terms...or face that possibility that I will never get another chance to say it due to some tragedy.
This process took several years to complete its overall change in me, and during that time I read lots of books on death and overcoming grief.
Those books are actually a good read for anyone, because we all need to be prepared that tragedy could come along and be prepared in your heart for it.
After asimilating this new way of thinking, my depression did not go away, but I began to be less tolerant of it. I began to not want to waste time on sad thoughts and wanted instead to cultivate love and compassion and togetherness with my loved ones. It took time though as there was still lots of mental work for me to do, but I think the understanding that your closest loved one can be snatched away from you at any time is very important to have and keep close to your heart. Because as you begin to focus on and desire to keep your people close to your heart, it helps you heal your depression, because those people will respond to your efforts with love and that spreads back to you in a new way.
So I'd call this understanding of our mortality the step 2 of my own process.
And I know people can achieve this without going through all the deaths and stuff that I did....just one tragedy or death at least has happened to all of us (or will in the future)...so we can all relate to it even without an excess of it in your life.
More later...
DQ
If I could just add something about depressive thoughts.
I kind of feel that it is like being given a script and it is up to you on how you will direct it.
Having said that after 4 months i got so exhausted with the emotions that i went on meds and I must say that my thinking and direction became much clearer
ppenton...You have the right attitude, and I know you will end up a happier person than you ever thought you were before after all this, no matter which way it turns out. Have a great Easter!
My W did show up to church services yesterday and it was fine, she looked very nice. She said hello to me and hugged the boys. After the service she walked with us, as our cars were parked near each other. She asked me about bowling the night before and I told her how much fun it was and who we bowled against. Then she gave S13 an Easter gift and hugged both of them again and said thanks to me and I said you're welcome. The boys and I left church and went home. I went for a walk while they took showers and got ready. We then went to my parent's house and had lots of good fun and played dominoes for hours. We all had a really good time and laughed a lot which is what I think we all needed. Got home and then had to do laundry as S15 needed his baseball uniform cleaned for his game today - just checked and the game is cancelled.
Hi DQ: Just a reminder that you owe us more on managing depressive thoughts! Lucky
Lucky...yes! I'm back, thank you for the reminder!
Ok - step one = understand that you CAN control your thoughts.
Step two = remind yourself constantly that the people you love could be gone tomorrow, so that you will value and love on them all the time.
So here's step three...
Stop having self-pity.
This was hard for me, because after several bad things happen to you, and you are in counseling and the counselor is helping you understand that you DO have the right to feel sorry for yourself because it is normal given the circumstances....so you go ahead and allow yourself to feel that self-pity...
But in my case and I think other people with depression issues, it became a bit too much of a habit for me to feel pity for myself. I found through study and self-reflection that if I felt pity for myself, then this refuted what I believed about my ability to change my circumstances toward a better life and outcome. If I felt self-pity, then it meant I had no control over what happens to me or what I think or feel, because "someone or something else" had control over what happened to me...and "someone or something else" handed me this plate with some tough cookies on it, and obviously "someone or something" had the control over this, not me.
But when I changed this attitude to something more empowering, such as "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" or "gee, I must be quite a powerful person to be able to overcome these challenges and still not become bitter", or "wow, I can see in retrospect how much I learned and grew from that bad experience, therefore, I can be thankful for it", or "I thank you God for the chance to show you my true colors in the face of adversity"...this helped me tremendously. Its not like I was saying "oh I just love to be beaten down by life, tra-la-la"...it was more like "no matter how down I can get, it only makes me stronger and better" and I lived with that kind of message playing in my head for many weeks, months, years...until it finally wiped out the old self-pity tapes of "why do these things happen to me, what did I do to deserve this?" and replaced them with "I am strong, I can handle anything, I know that my spirit will carry me through".
So that's step three = learn to replace self-pity with empowering thoughts. These steps all take lots of time and effort, I'm not saying it can happen over night. I'd say this was a 5 - 10 year process for me, with incremental improvement over those years, until by the end of it, I am left with only the occasional situation induced temporary depression, but where I had started with an overall serious depression issue that pervaded my entire life!
I'll come back with more....thanks again Lucky!
DQ
DQ,
I agree it is a constant process.
I have found in my life that despite overcoming huge setbacks, I'll get trapped by something big down the road that may be even similar to what I experienced before. I think my comfort zones continued to evolve and narrow when life is easy, so that when a major setback occurs outside of that narrow comfort zone, despite a history of dealing with it before, I allow it to be a major setback once again. The recovery from each time seems to be much shorter, but the initial impact is always pretty big.
If a WAS appears to be 'on the fence' and confused about where to take their life next, I wonder if 'showing tail lights' would do any good? That is, showing that I'm/we're moving beyond W with new friends, new travel, 1-on-1 'friend' outings, et cetera. I'm already GAL'ing, but haven't really talked about it much with W.
I guess in answering my own question, 'would do any good' for whom? (me, I suppose)
NiceGuy...YES, in your case I think it would do some good. It might also just let her figure "great! He's gone so I can move on!" so one never knows how it will play out....but in your case, I would give it a shot. Just *lightly* make it known that you are GAL-ing with *light* and *vague* details.
Please also go up to the newcomers section and read the post I just wrote on the thread called "GAL advice". I think that one would really apply to you!
DQ
I am now following the 'GAL Advice' section as you probably have noticed. The reason I posted the question about appearing CONFIDENT (on the 'GAL Advice' thread) is a result of finally hearing (or perhaps re-hearing) two of my W's complaints about me - including lost confidence over the last 7 years due to work setbacks, resulting in a gradual loss of competence as a husband. She also stated (to a mutual friend) that she is enjoying being single and doesn't want me back - in part because she thinks it would take too long for me to change.
I can definitely see where the MrNiceGuy aspects of me have led me to fall short on a few key requirements of appearing confident. I've got my work cut out for me in the 180 department. Regardless if she ever sees it, I CERTAINLY will see it in myself and take advantage of the newly developed confidence.
DQ - we have posted before but this is the first time i have read these ones and was glad I found it.
I like you had an A and upon being caught , stopped immediately and fought for a marrige ( except I lied ) 3 years on , I tell the truth and H for 3rd or 4 th time leaves the home. Within weeks i am told of his OW. I begin Dbing. No luck, the nicer and silent I become , the worse and more open he becomes.
I snap and I now have controls of busines etc back. H hates me , our kids dont have much to do with H and will not entertain a minuite of talk or time of his OW.
My question to you DQ are ?
Did you persue your M after your A?
how long did your H stay around?
How long before you gave up?
Did entering a new relationship take courage or did it just happen?
How are your kids towards your H ?
Is he in another R?
Hi DQ - I've read your posts and want to thank you for offering insight from another point of view and experience. I'm in a place where I feel like a spinning top. There is so much swimming through my mind, and I'm heartbroken, heartbroken, heartbroken. I'd love it if you'd read my threads and tell me your thoughts when you have time. I'd appreciate any feedback you can offer. Thanks again.
First post second post
blueheart and Pollyana...I will try to come back and respond to you both later today...
DQ
OK Pollyana....
In a nutshell, my marriage/A's went like this:
Early in our marriage, about 3 years in, I had a full-on PA. I ended it due to guilt. 4 years later I confessed it to my H. He said he would forgive me and we tried to move on. But we never had counseling or did anything to try to work they the "whys" of me having an affair. Also, we BOTH just considered me a sinner. We BOTH assumed he had made no mistakes, it was all just some flaw within me. In retrospect, this was the nail in our marriage coffin.
oops more shortly....gotta run....
I'm back...
So after I confessed my A, I was then a "good girl" for many many years. But I was miserable and we had no sex life. I kept trying to figure out what was wrong with me. Hindsight is 20/20 and now I see all the dynamics at play, and it wasn't all my fault, which I had assumed at that time.
After we had been married about 10 years, my halo slipped off my head. I couldn't seem to prompt him to help me make any positive changes in our sitch (although I now understand I never went about it the right way), and somehow I fell into some kind of major flirting fest. From there, I ended up kind of giving up on myself and my marriage (but didn't tell him, again, I realize now, duh, what a mistake, should have talked to him or dragged him to counseling) and I would then just kind of allow myself to follow in whatever direction someone was pursuing me. I had several EA/PA's...although its hard for me to say that because it "wasn't what you think". I never fell in love, and even when I say PA's it was actually "just" kissing or a slight touch here or there. I know I know...its still awful. The EA's also were not about emotions...just don't know what else to call it. They were all about explicit flirting and sexual conversations. That is why I call them EA's...because I acknowledge they were A's but they really were never about the heart. I never talked to any of these people about my H or my marriage or whatever. It was all just "fun" (gag me, I'm so ashamed now). None of these people ever had feelings for me either.
Finally after living this way for several years, I realized that I must be terribly unhappy in my marriage or I wouldn't be doing this. So I began discussions with my H. I didn't confess any of these mini-A's I was having at that time. I did though discuss how I wanted some passion and wanted him to pursue me, something he had never done in our relationship. All these other guys pursued me, but he didn't, and that was what I wanted. I wanted it from him. I laid it out on the table exactly what I wanted/needed. Dates, pursuit, letters and emails, compliments, and good passionate sex. I did not have an A going on at the time I moved out. I had also at that time dropped all the loser EA people and had no interest in them.
So I moved out and told him he'd need to chase me or lose me. He agreed that he would. We both also agreed it would be ok to date other people. I know that sounds whacked out, and we never got any guidance, never read any books, never went to counseling, so I never at that time realized what a horrible position it put us in.
However, in my heart, I wanted HIM to pursue me and win my heart. I asked him to do many 180's and he never did. I did not want to be single or chase down multiple men. I just wanted passion, and I wanted it from him but I wasn't going to go without it. So I started dating from the get go.
He never pursued me. Said he would, but didn't. He didn't love me any more at that point, which I cannot blame him. He never really knew of my mini-A's...but he knew I was a flirt and was seeking passion. He also had many EA's because women who had daddy issues always fell for him and followed him around, called him after work, chased him down, etc. I ignored this because of my own EA's.
So I started dating, but he didn't. To my knowledge he has not had a date since I left him over 5 years ago.
After about 6 months of separation, I met the man of my dreams and he chased and pursued me and never let up...we are still together today and to this day, he chases and pursues, romances and sexes me til I can't see...he is everything I ever wanted. My ex-h still owned my heart up until the day I met my current man. After that, it was over in my heart. I never looked back.
In the end, (I know this will not sound right to many of you) but I know I did my ex-h a favor. He was not happy and not in love with me, but lacked the backbone to leave me. So he was a horrible husband (passive agressive) until I left first. Then he could blame me for ruining his life and look like the victim, and he would never have to look like a failure to his friends and family because I was the one who left. Never mind the fact that he hated me and secretly wished I would die or leave him, but anyway.
How are my kids toward H? Unfortunately, he turned into a jackass to them the day I left the house. I can't explain it, but apparently my son looks too much like me and my ex-h transferred all his hate toward me upon our son. My daughter was in college so she didn't catch that much of the hell, but ex-h did also let her down in many ways.
They both really took an emotional beating by him and they have never fully recovered from it. However, they do see him and act like nothing is wrong, which is typical for children to do. They do talk to me though, about him and his failings to them and to me. I just let them talk and am supportive, and I usually gently defend him, and they know I will never trash him, so they won't just go off on him. Instead, they will just tell me when they have an epiphany about him or something he did (the stories are long and I don't share them on the board), and I will ask if they want to go to a counselor about it...they usually decline but sometimes they do.
New relationship....yes it just happened naturally and was not difficult, except for the fact that I was separated, not divorced, so it was hard for my new man to be dating a married girl and not feel like an ass. However he saw first hand how my ex-h was treating me, and never felt like he was stealing someone's wife. After he and I were seriously dating, I could no longer go on being married to someone else and I initiated the divorce...but by then it was obvioulsy inevitable. As with everything else in our marriage, I had to take care of the divorce, find us both lawyers, figure out how to pay for everything, figure out how to split everything...and then even after that I gave him more than an equitable split, hoping it would be an act of grace on my part that might create a little friendship between us again. Nope. He just continued to hate me and crap on our son...he took the money and ran and to this day doesn't have anything to do with me.
Very recently I sent him a "closure" letter and told him all the things I had done wrong in our marriage and how sorry I was. I did not point any finger at him, just talked about my side of the table. It was important to my psyche to do this. He wrote back and admitted some of the things he regrets too and it was actually very heart felt. I can see he has emotionally grown a lot since then which did warm my heart. However, we haven't spoken since so it may have healed our hearts a tiny bit but certainly didn't mend any bridges. That is ok, though. My heart feels much better.
So it sounds like my sitch is a lot different than yours...I don't know if my story helps you at all. Feel free to ask more questions.
DQ
Hi DQ,
I have been following your thread for some time now and this has been one of the reasons why I was prompted to sign up this community. I seek to you for clarity. Maybe what you will say to me can help me understand our sitch better.
I've been married 13 years last Feb 2009. In early Jan, I discovered my husband's affair (running six months at that time). It was more of an emotional affair but they have been physical too. He told me he loves her and is into her.
The last four months had been a roller coaster ride for both of us. We continued to live together after I found out but he continued his affair after that. Most days we were fine and felt that our communication was better than ever, but there were at least four instances in the last four months where we almost parted with anger in our hearts.
Yesterday, my husband has finally decided to move out. He now lives with a friend (male) some an hour and half drive's away. He says, this moving out doesn't mean he has already made a choice (her or me). I have not asked for an ultimatum, not once. Knowing my husband, ultimatum's will just make him make the wrong decisions. Though I did tell him from the beginning that the affair was not okay, I couldn't force him to give it up knowing that coercion will not work.
Before he left, he told me that he wants to be on his own to really think about stuff and find himself. There were things he said that told me he has somehow understood the weight and effect of the affair in our marriage. He hinted that this separation could be the thing that would save our marriage, and said that he will want to move back for good for the right reasons (and not just because they fought). He is looking for that reason, among other things.
Before he left, he told me he still loves me. He hasn't said that to me since January. Though he tells her this at least everyday when they talk on IM or send SMS to each other (I sometimes catch him), he also told me yesterday that things have changed for the two of them and that they have often been fighting (and we've been fighting less and less).
In all honesty, he and I know the future with OW and him is kinda bleak. There's just too much obstacles between them. But knowing she has his heart is what crushes me. I still believe he favors her over me...it's just what I feel sometimes, I'm the option and the second choice. I tell him this and he doesn't deny it but says that I've assumed too much.
My husband is a lot like you....he loves the chase, he loves to feel he's appreciated, and he loves that you'd show it. The OW was able to give him that the early months of their relationship, something I have failed to give him after 13 years together (he says I got too comfortable). Now that we're separated, I cannot deny I terribly miss him. Do I give him the space and communicate with him less...so he can think? Or do I initiate the chase, knowing there's this other person he's also interested in?
What should I avoid so that we don't drift apart during the separation? We have agreed to meet at least once a week though. What else must I do to help him lift the fog?
Thank you very much for your insights.
blueheart...I haven't forgotten about you, I will still go and read your threads and respond....
Eddie's mom...same thing, I just couldn't get on line this weekend so haven't had time to respond....I will hopefully later today or tomorrow.
DQ
blueheart...in your last post on your own thread, you wondered if possibly your H has transferred his alcohol addiction to a sex addiction. Yes I would agree with that, and I also have addiction issues so I am speaking from personal experience.
There is literally zero chance that your H and this OW will make it on down the line. But it could go on for a very long time, especially if they are both addicts and it sounds like that might be the case. So are you willing to wait it out, maybe 2 - 5 years for him to come to his senses? Even if you do, he won't respect you by the end of it, because he won't be able to respect someone who let him eat cake.
I'm so sorry to say this but in your sitch, I would absolutely just go dark completely. Yes he will be confused and will wonder what is going on with you, he will ask what's wrong, he may even get angry or say something like "see? This is why I left you!" Let it all roll off your back. As you know, addicts will say things that are not true, especially when their actions are slapping them in their own face.
I know that you fear by going dark you will lose him forever, and that is why you (and most LBS's) don't go dark. Please re-read my original post on this thread. Don't let yourself be fooled by your own heart hoping for something other than reality to be true. There is still and always a chance he will snap out of it before its too late. But ... letting him eat cake will not only prolong his waffling, it will also cause him to feel contempt and disrespect for you purely because you are allowing yourself to be disrespected by him. It doesn't matter that you love him. That is not the message he is getting. What he's hearing is "Go ahead, wipe your feet on me, I love you so its ok"...to which he can only reply "what is wrong with a person who would say that?" Right? I do hope that didn't hurt your feelings, and remember these things all go on subconsciously. Your H is not consciously thinking this...but subconsciously, yes he is.
I'm so sorry, I wish I could say "oh it sounds like everything will be fine". It doesn't sound like that to me. It sounds like you should go dark and begin moving forward. Like I always emphasis though, moving forward doesn't mean divorce per se. It just means moving forward from the position you are currently in. Make that change and move forward to the next step, whatever that is. Moving forward does not mean moving on. It means taking charge of your own life and in that process, at a minimum he WILL respect you. Even if it doesn't bring him back. Remember all that I said above about how he may freak out, yell at you, accuse you of changing the rules, etc, when you try to go dark. IGNORE THIS. It will blow over. Be prepared. I hope you have a good network of people close to you to help you through this difficult time.
DQ
Eddie's mom...
Ok now this will seem to contradict myself, but I have to make a point based on something in your post. You said:
"There were things he said that told me he has somehow understood the weight and effect of the affair in our marriage. He hinted that this separation could be the thing that would save our marriage, and said that he will want to move back for good for the right reasons (and not just because they fought). He is looking for that reason, among other things."
I am having a problem with the he has "somehow understood the weight and effect of the affair in your marriage". Somehow?
Here's the point I want to make...when you are having an affair, yes you make all kinds of rationalizations to yourself about how it wasn't your fault and I have been trying to tell him/her all along and blah blah blah...but at the same time, YOU KNOW when you are having an affiar HOW THIS WILL AFFECT THE MARRIAGE! To pretend not to "really get it" is bull crap.
When a cheating spouse has you under their thumb and begging for scraps such as, he pretends to only "somehow" understand how the affair affects the marriage, this can mean only one thing: he has brain washed you into believing that he really doesn't get it, BUT HE DOES. They always do.
All that is really happening is that he has the upper hand in the relationship. He knows inside that his affair is death to any normal marriage, but you've also let him know by staying by his side and letting him cake eat, that you are willing to "overlook" how bad the affair really is out of "love" for him. But as I was saying to blueheart above, he isn't really hearing "love" from you, he is hearing "I'll let you wipe your feet on me", to which his only reply could be "what is wrong with a person who would let me do that?"
So like blueheart, my advice to you is to go completely dark and GAL. Pull all the way back and do your own thing.
I know and understand how hard this advice is to take, because of the huge amount of fear and anxiety it produces. But sweetie, he has ALREADY done and continues to do the most horrible thing you can do to a spouse! What more hurt do you fear could be coming?
I'm a big advocate of trying very hard to understand your own contribution to the problems in the marriage, and I truly believe that most WAS's did not want to walk...they feel it was a last resort, or that their OP only turned up at a vulnerable moment but the problems were already there....these things are truly felt by the WAS. It is not b.s.
But at the same time, there is no person who is having an affair that doesn't "understand" what an affair "does to a marriage". That is just pure nonsense.
I have to shake my head at times....when I confessed my first A to my ex-h, I fully thought he might leave me and he would be fully within his rights to do so. I did not throw at him any part of the issue at that time. I just confessed and asked him how he wanted to proceed. There was no confusion on my part AT ALL about whether my A was "caused" by "him". I knew it was my decision and it was wrong and he had every right to hate me for it, no matter how bad our problems were.
My later A's, I never revealed to him, but if he had found out I would not have said "well I didn't realize it would bother you so much, what's the big deal?"
Unbelievable.
DQ
DQ,
I would appreciate some advice on my sitch. Just to add to. When I busted him and the ex bestfriend other woman I said some things that really hurt him. I told him that he was worthless and didn't have anything in his life to be proud of. I also told him that the last 3 and a half years of my life were a waste. I tend to bite really hard when I am hurt. I've never been this way toward my husband and he has never seen this side of me before. It just really hurt to know that he has been having this EA with my ex bestfriend behind my back for so long and that I feel as if I was being played by both of them. She pretending to be my friend while stealing my husband and then continuing to do so when he left and both of them lying about all of this. Please advise if you can. I would appreciate it.
DQ,
Me next! Don't know if you've been following my sitch but if you've got any input I'd be grateful. In a word, my wife has slept w/ 4 guys and thinks she's in love with the latest all in the span of 7 months. She said she wanted to come home, confessed all, "said" she broke it off w/ OM and then ran away again 3 hours later. Speculations as to if she is back w/ OM? Thoughts on how to proceed? Is it worth it at this point? Should I just move on? Trying to not pursue and don't know if I'm being successful or not. Thanks!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1757458&page=2#Post1757458
Thanks for your reply, DQ. I appreciate your point of view on this. I did read your initial post about affairs where ILY is said within the first month. He also told her that she would be his bride. Unbelievable!
As far as them both being addicts, I have a bit more hope on that front. My H is very active in AA and I know that many of his AA comrades realize what is going on with him. He's still going to a lot of meetings - so hopefully, he will come to his senses sooner than later.
There's also his lifestyle that is severely compromised. He has no money and is in constant stress about it. He's lost a huge amount of weight and looks awful.
As far as going dark, I have been doing that much, much more. But there is occasional contact about our pets, house and finances. I feel that in my particular sitch, it is best to go mostly dark, but on occasions when I do see him (few and far between) follow the advice of my DB coach and act upbeat, positive and very together.
Today is a particularly horrible day for me. Woke up very, very depressed and despondent. I am trying to move on - joined al-anon, got a sponsor, trying to work on myself. But I just miss him so, so much.
I hate to bug, but would appreciate some advice if you could spare the time DQ.
goingtofix....your story is really sad, especially of course the latest stuff, where you are betrayed by your ex-bf AND your husband both.
But please brace yourself for what I'm about to say....
This does not excuse anything he has done, but my personal feeling is that a young man of 23 has no business trying to be married to an older woman with teenaged kids.
It takes lots of time, and seeing children through their baby and toddler years, then childhood, before you REALLY know how to parent teens. For him to marry you and try to become a father figure to your teen kids right out of the gate, is just too much to ask of such a young man. I know that some are capable of this....but most are not. I am not surprised he has bolted.
Not that it is right, and obviously the betrayal with your best friend is not right....but both bolting and taking up with your bf just show his immaturity at this age and stage in life. Its my opinion from reading literally thousands of stories of people's relationships, that men don't truly settle down and mature enough for marriage until after age 30. I hope no one gets down on me for that, because I do know there are exceptions and some very young men can settle down....but for the most part, the ones who try at ages like 23 are just setting themselves up for disaster.
I hate saying this to you because it sounds like I am saying your marriage was a mistake....but really, all I am saying is that he fulfilled the immaturity that could be expected of him at this age.
At this point, I know you are steeped in pain....but I don't see any reason for you to pursue him or the marriage any longer. He and your ex-bf both know and understand the betrayal they have heaped upon you...they are going to disappear with their tails between their legs because they know it is wrong. However, do you want him to wake up from guilt alone and come back to you? And even if he does, he is still only 23 years old...how will anything have changed?
It takes so much life experience in order to grow up and be mature. He hasn't had that experience yet. That is why he can make such bold mistakes and horrible moves, he isn't old enough to fully understand the consequences, regardless of the guilt he feels.
One day when he has truly matured, he will have so much regret for how he has handled this. He will one day know what it means to be a man and how you don't take up with your wife's bf, no matter WHAT! But that day will be so far in the future that it will not matter to your current marriage.
I'm so sad for you, but I don't see much reason for you to hope....
The only hope I do see is if he and ex-gf break up, he realizes what he has done and comes begging back to you...but he will likely only do this if you have gone totally dark first and he thinks you have moved on....and EVEN IF he does come begging back, my personal opinion is that he is an emotional teenager himself and should not be raising teenaged children with you. Again, that's just my opinion, not advice.
I'm so sorry hon....I hate saying things like this. I wish I could wave a wand for you all....
You mentioned you had recently read the original Mars/Venus book and it helped you understand many things. Have you also read Mars and Venus on a Date? That book will really help you understand some more of the dynamics that possibly contributed to his feelings when he left...how a man must feel that he is the MAN and not just one of your children, etc. I know that you both tried not to feed into that dynamic, but unfortuantely, you both did feed into it and that is a recipe for disaster to a marriage. The book may help you understand many other things as well...but don't hope for the book to bring him back....it will not. It will just help you in trying to cope by understand all the things that happened.
My heart goes out to you....
DQ
DQ,
I thank you for your advice and your opinions. I must explain that he was 23 when we got together. He will be 27 in August. I agree that I need to move on. I doubt seriously after the hurtful things I said to him that he could see past that and understand my hurt and how that is what drove me to say what I did. I'm crushed. I know I can go on and I thank you for your time. As for going totally dark. I took him his mail today and left it. Did not see him. I also left him the book The Five Love Languages. Maybe it can help him understand what he needs to do in his future relationships. I know his relationship with my ex best friend will crumble as they do not really have anything other than their misery to talk about. They can only shop and go to so many concerts before they will actually need to talk about something other than how miserable each one of them are. I do not suspect that he will come crawling back then. There has been too much said and done from both sides. Which is very sad as I have never loved anyone like I did him. I just wasn't speaking his love language. :*(
DQ-
Well, it seems everyone here wants your input, and I'm no exception. Don't know if you've read my sitch
My situation but my WAW had a long distance A that seems to be over, or nearly over now. The whole thing is weird. She travelled to see OM, then she started being kind and respectful to me, but still with walls up. In an emotional breakdown, she told me "I don't want a divorce, I don't want to divorce you, look how we are together, if we only had that other thing." The other thing she was referring to was the lack of intimacy she lamented in our marriage, something I'm determined to remedy. That was a couple months ago. She travelled again to see OM, but shortly after her return I heard they "broke up", although she is still talking to him several times per week. Recently she opened up briefly again, and told me she has been hating me for what I did to our marriage, but that she likes how I've been changing, and that she misses me. Then she asked if we could just take it a day at a time.
She is being very friendly toward me, and regularly inviting me to spend time with her and the kids, but her walls are still really up, and physical contact is limited to occasional hugs and little pokes. It's getting easier little by little, but there is a giant elephant in the room whenever we're together.
My question for you is should I pursue at all? I like flirting with her very much, but I don't know if I should. I have flirted some, with mixed results. Since I know she thought I was too sexually conservative for her (wrongly I might add, although it's my fault she thought so), I'm compelled to start dropping very sexual innuendos when the opportunity presents, but I'm conflicted. My conflict stems from the fact that she cheated on me, so it seems like I'm compromising my self respect if I pursue her. I feel like if she wants back with me, she needs to make the move, although could all her invitations to me be considered that move?
Also, some of the standard advice given here says that I should give her the impression that I've moved on to encourage her to pursue me. I've done a good job GALing, and I've made it clear to her that I'll be fine without her, but wouldn't flirting and sexual innuendos effectively "show her my cards" that I really do still want her?
Is there some sign I should wait to get from her before I go down this path? I know I should probably just be more patient and let her move toward me at her own pace, but as per some of your advice here, I don't want her to think that I'm not passionate about her and that I'm not willing to be aggressive in showing her how I feel. I think there's probably a subtle timing that's important, which is why I'm asking your advice.
going to fix...I can hear your hear breaking in your words, and it breaks mine, too. I wish I could comfort, there is just no words that can do that. :0(
I guess the least I can do is offer to you that I made the same types of mistakes...I mothered and nagged, didn't want to, didn't mean to, always just wanted him to man up...but it made him hate me slowly over time and I didn't read M/V until after we were divorced. So I messed up to the extent that it cost me my marriage, too, in lots and lots of ways, and I know the anguish that comes when you have to realize "wow, if I had only (fill in the blank) or did not (fill in the blank) instead of thinking this was all his fault...." and you blew an entire marriage just due to youth and ignorance of basic gender and love languages differences....ouch. I was where you are at a time, it sucked.
Having said that, no more books to him, ok? I was a loving gesture but he probably won't interpret it that way. Maybe some day there will be another chance but for now, no more attempts to reach out to him like that...just pray for yourself, your kids, him, and even for ex-gf-ow...they are both in for more pain down the line than they have any clue of.
future...
Can you share specifically what her complaints were about lack of intimacy? (Without obvious details, just the basic ideas).
And you say you've heard her and OM broke up. Am I clear on the fact that they were only physically together once that you know of? Also, how reliable is your source that they "broke up"? When she began her A online, was it through just chatting or something?
I'll answer depending on your answers here.
Sorry you find yourself here...everyone...its all so sad.
DQ
Thanks again DQ. Moving on with being a better me. I was making it on my own before him and I will make it on my own again. Sadly he is the one who has never been able to make it on his own. You are right. They both have no idea the hurt they are going to feel when they realize that they really have nothing in common and they lost a wife and a best friend over their selfishness. He says he gave me chances, but I asked him how fair is that when I have no idea I am being given chances. I explained that I did not understand what he meant and that even he had given me so many different reasons as to why he was so depressed all the time. I loved him with all I had. I really did. It just wasn't according to the language he needed. Funny thing is, most of this started because he stopped speaking my love language early on in our relationship. I cried and pleaded then telling him that I didn't feel loved. It never got better, but I just got to the point where I just went on. I believe the resentment probably started then and it as well as my illness played a huge role in it. It's like we all say though, we can't fix anything that we aren't aware of and when we are finally made aware of it. They have already moved on in their minds. I'll move on. I'll love again. I will be a better me!
Thanks again!
DQ--
I could use some advice on setting hard, concrete boundaries with my DH. The latest mess is in my current thread. I believe, but do not know for a fact, that he is back from visiting his "friend".
I have struggled with these, as I am always afraid of hurting my kids. Because of that, I set the kids up to get hurt again by him.
Kelp please!
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
DQ-
Ok, I'll do the best I can. On the one hand, my W says she wants complete emotional intimacy about thoughts, dreams, sex, etc. But, when she extends herself and doesn't get back what she expects, she attacks emotionally and then goes passive aggressive, which over the years has caused me to close off to her in some ways. Sexually, she was more experienced than me when we met, and more direct and frank about it. Truthfully, I was young, and intimidated, and my male ego expressed its intimidation in a manner she took as rejection, so she started to wall off her full sexuality from me. I saw this happen, and I really tried to get her to open back up, but she was too hurt, and wasn't willing to risk again.
She's also a dreamer, which is something I love about her, but while she really pushed for us to start the standard suburban lifestyle of a family home and three kids, she also didn't want to let go of her dreams of a more exciting life filled with travel and adventure. Particularly when the kids were little, I was just trying to get through each day and I took her expression of those dreams as just complaints about the life she told me she wanted, and which I was busting my butt to provide. I would discuss her dreams sometimes, but always in the context of "someday" when the kids are bigger, which she did not take as very satsifying. I felt she was being immature and irresposible, and I started to resent her for it, which caused me to wall off.
Through all this, we still loved each other, and we still maintained a decent family life. We revelled in the kids we created. However, our life became all about managing our day to day responsibilities, and all these things inside her were just building up pressure to get out. She was so unhappy and she just didn't see me as someone she could express her feelings to, which is really sad.
Now enter the OM. She had known this man when she visited this foreign country when she was young. That time in her life represented everything she felt she was now missing, and once she turned 40, she started to feel her life was slipping away. This man had expressed much interest in her back then, but she was completely uninterested in him, at least that's what her mother tells me. She initiated contact with him via e-mail, found him single and still interested in her, and they began an e-mail relationship. She began to share all these feeling and dreams that she didn't feel safe sharing with me. They got closer and closer, and she started telling me she didn't love me anymore. Last October she told me our marriage was over, and their relationship immediately turned sexual. They began an explicit e-mail, phone, and webcam relationship, and planned to meet in person to consumate. I didn't know about any of this until ten days before she was to leave on this trip, a trip she told me was for research for her PhD. When I discovered all this I was devastated. I managed to get her to cancel her trip by being tough, but I failed to convince her to stop the affair. She was too far gone, in full affair mode, completely obsessed, talking with him several times per day, texting all the time, e-mails, etc. She was expressing to him how she felt she found her soul mate, and how it's a miracle they found each other again, etc. Really blowtorching it, as per your other posting about affairs. She moved out a couple weeks after I found out about the affair.
I knew that often times these affairs die when the secrecy and taboo nature is removed, so I just went completely dark, and let happen whatever was going to happen. I was GALing, detaching, and facing the liklihood that my marriage was over. About a month after she moved out, she travelled to see the OM for a week. She was planning another trip a few months later, but I heard the OM was starting to doubt that they could have any real future together, so I presume due to the affair starting to collapse, she went again a month after her first trip. A couple weeks after that, her moods started fluxuating wildly, and she went through an emotional crisis where she was crying all the time, and eventually went on anti-depressant meds. That's when I heard they "broke up". My source is very reliable that they did indeed "break up", but I don't know what that means, since they still talk on the phone all the time, albeit much less than before. She still gets in these really bad moods for reasons she won't discuss, so I assume they have something to do with OM. My best guess is that they've made some decision to "just be friends" because of the distance between them, but she's still relying on him for emotional support.
I don't know if it's the right time yet, but if she's healing from the years of hurt in our marriage, how do you think I should start trying to rebuild trust with her so she feels she can share her dreams and sexuality with me again? Is it essential that the OM is completely out of the picture, because if it is, I could be waiting a long time. Should I give her an ultimatum of him or me? Should I wait for her to come to me, more than she already has? I think rushing things would be a big mistake, so I'm totally fine just letting things sit for a while.
Obviously our M is dangling by a thread and I don't know if we can rebuild it. It would be rough road back, but I've come to such clarity on where things went wrong, I would really like the chance to just "test the waters" between us and see if it could be different.
SMW - I have been watching along on your thread, sad and horrified for you, of course. All I can say is that he is DEEP DEEP into his own head and it is, as you know, up his own butt. (Very dark in there).
I have said on my thread before that I can't really understand these WAS's who have also walked away from their own children. Its one thing to convince yourself that your marriage is over and that is why you are having an affair, blah blah blah, but how can they live with themselves when it comes to abandoning their kids? I'll never get that one.
Although I did get a glimpse of this from some divorced brother-in-laws (two of them, my ex-h's brothers) who were having affairs, and when their wives said "what about the kids? This is going to kill them" their answers were always along the lines of "me and my kids are just FINE, don't talk to me about MY KIDS". Which seems to me to show that some WAS's have a strange romantic notion about their own kids, that says that the kids will love them and TAKE THEIR SIDE in their pursuit of THEIR OWN HAPPINESS no matter what they do to achieve it!
So apparently, some people actually think that their children will "just understand" their "need to pursue happiness". I guess since this seems to be a common thing for some people to think, it must not be that far out in space. Its not until you test this theory that you find out you are WRONG. Your kids will NOT just love you no matter what! Your kids can actually move on from you! There may be a tiny tad of genetic bonded love, but that doesn't mean the same thing at all. I think maybe because some of these wayward parents know that they will love their kids no matter what the kids do, that the reverse is true. They find out fast that the reverse certainly is NOT TRUE!!
I'm so sorry for you and your kids....
As for boundaries, honey, the only thing I can advise is that you call him up and chew his azz out and tell him exactly what he's doing to those kids, then hang up. I know that's not good DB'ing, but you've been on the road a long time and he doesn't seem to be getting an earful from anyone about what he is doing to the kids, is he? I mean I know you are saying the BIL/SIL are disappointed and all, but the relatives are rarely able to talk to a man directly like this, you know?
And if God is telling you that he is going to come back one day so to be patient....then you can't really go wrong here, right? Giving him an earful about how he is hurting his own kids can't turn him further away from you, he is already completely turned away. Also it will not be to be giving him guilt either, it will be to give him the TRUTH about his own kids, something every parent needs to hear, no matter how it is delivered.
Hang in there....
future, I'll come back to you in a little bit....
DQ
future, I'm back...
In your case, I guess you have the benefit of the OM being in another country. That might actually work out for you, as she can't physically be with him at all....and here's another question...
Is there any way you can contact OM and tell him "look dude, she's a married woman, she may be telling you she hates me and has been emotionally divorced for a long time, but as far as I'm concerned she only started saying that when she found you again on-line...please be a MAN and respect this married man's request to stay away from his wife". ???
DQ
Yeah, if the OM was local, this whole thing would be much tougher, so I guess I should count myself fortunate in that regard.
I seriously considered contacting the OM when I found out about the affair back in December, and appealing to any conscience he may have, especially considering our three young kids. Something told me not to though. I knew my W was on a path she needed to travel alone. One of my good friends said "She'll never be happy if she doesn't do this and see what happens," and I knew it was true. I just showed her I loved her, and I made our Christmas holiday truly special, but when she chose him, I went dark and moved on with my life. When the affair collapsed so soon, I knew that maybe there was still a chance, if I still wanted one.
Tonight during our son's baseball game, my W told me she had all the kids away at sleepovers Friday night, and she asked if I would like to go out to see a movie with her. She kind of made a joke of it, and said we'd be going just as friends, but I knew it was a meaningful gesture on her part. Initially, I was cool to her offer, and didn't really reply one way or the other. At the end of the game as we were leaving I did say I'd like to go, and we made a tentative plan. I'm not optimistic she'll follow through though. When faced with me saying yes, she backpedaled a little and said she had a plan to watch a movie at her friend's house, and she'd have to see if she could get out of that. She said she'd call me tomorrow to let me know. I said "If you're not going to go, I need to know so I can make other plans." She replied, "I'll let you know as soon as I can tomorrow, if you have another option, take it. I don't mind." She was friendly, not annoyed, but I get the distinct feeling I'm being played a bit here. She got me to say yes to her offer, and now she's giving herself an out. Gotta love these games!