Afterward when we were putting D4 to bed, she said “I love you guys so much and I just can’t choose who I want to put me to bed!” I assured her she doesn’t have to choose and she pulled us both in for a big group hug and gave us both lots of kisses.
omg this part made me cry. That is the both the sweetest and the saddest thing I've ever read here. I'm sorry that you're going through this, but I'm glad that your daughter is still getting lots of love from both of you. Sorry I haven't read your whole sitch - I will in time slowly. I think you're doing great though. Inevitably we will still feel that bit of sadness from time to time, but also keep it in perspective that when your H still walks out of the door after a nice family day - it means that they are still not ready to come back. And you wouldn't want him to be back when he's not ready anyway. is everything getting better? worse? who knows. Receive the present as it is, and let time be the judge.
Hi, Hope. I just wanted to say I caught up on your threads and I just empathize with everything you're going through. I read through to the present of your sitch and came away feeling so hopeful for you and also wondering how I can ever be as strong as you have been. Though we don't have children, I recognize some of my own situation with my H, who I expect will file for D in January. We've been living together since BD in June, and if you visit my thread, you'll see I think he's maybe going through MLC or some version of that and has some nice guy tendencies, but who knows, really. I live near you, and I am currently feeling overwhelmed with what navigating D process will mean for me, if/how I need to respond legally (I assume I will respond and then we will work out an agreement), and how to handle interactions with him after the papers are filed, all as I look for a job. I also struggle with detachment and a 180 on my H feeling unloved/unappreciated. It made me feel less alone to see you had this question too:
Originally Posted by HopeCA
That’s what I’m wondering, if I should still be saying those kinds of things at this point, considering D has been filed and I have made it all too clear that it’s not a mutual decision, haha. So perhaps at this stage it might be better for my response to be more pulled back and have more of the “I’m fine with this at this point” vibe....?
It seemed like that's pretty much what you did—made it clear that it was not what you wanted in the beginning and then responded to the papers and only cooperated to move the process forward whenever he initiated next steps. I am curious as to where exactly you are in that process—I know you had the court appearance in November, so, if I understand things correctly, you'd still have to work out a formal agreement with H before the D would be finalized?
Please forgive me if I'm hijacking your thread! As I read more of your history, I feel like I'm getting a glimpse into what the next 6 or so months could be like for me and how difficult and confusing it's really going to be.
Thank you all, for taking the time to read and respond to my update!
Hi Blu,
I still update occasionally, when I actually have an update and when it feels healthy for me I’m glad you still update and post too! I agree with you completely, people need to feel the loss of things to want them back. In my sitch, over time, I’ve come to believe that for my H in particular he also needs to be reminded of what he’s missing in a material way. He has an uncanny ability (for better or for worse, mainly worse IMO) to compartmentalize things and justify his choices at all costs. I believe (though I obviously could be completely wrong) that if I had continued on avoiding the family time for the sake of avoiding his cake eating, it would have allowed him to never look back. I also think a difference between my sitch and yours is that my H has/had a mountain of resentments and anger toward me for issues in our R. Though he did start dating an OW shortly after he moved out, he was very clear that he was leaving me because he wanted out. I remember you specifically stating that your H never really wanted to leave in the first place, and was dealing with a limerance/affair sitch (please feel free to correct if I’m getting it wrong!) in my sitch, the OW was a symptom/natural consequence of Hs leaving and considering himself single and dating. (Yes I have PLENTY of my own feelings and opinions about all of that, but that’s a whole post in and of itself!) In other words, I think in my sitch H needed/needs opportunities to see and feel our M and family life in a different light, and to feel that it could potentially be good again. I might be wayyyy off Blu. As always, I welcome your thoughts/comments/2X4s!! As for your questions about our family time, they are good ones. I ask them of myself all the time, and I’m not sure I know the answers. If I knew for sure that this family time would not lead to Ring, would I still engage in it? Honestly, I don’t think so. If I knew for sure that we were headed for divorce/ H had never expressed wavering, I would PROBABLY not be engaging in the family time, as it wouldn’t be healthy for me. I know. YIKES. I also sometimes tell myself that it’s one more holiday season on the books for D4 in which she is with both of us and not pulled in two directions. I do feel good about that regardless.
Your other question is a different story. At this point, If I knew he was still with OW I would not be engaging in the family time, or any of the friendly warm stuff. If he was still with her after all this time I would definitely need to make a clean separation and let him live with his choices. A few months ago he told me indirectly that they are not dating anymore/it already fell apart, and that it never developed past a casual thing. I believe that. When he recently told me of his wavering feelings, one thing he expressed was that he’s been very lonely lately and that he doesn’t want that to be the reason he comes back. (Again, I have lots of thoughts and feelings I’ll save for another post). This leads me to believe that he has remained single since things with OW ended. Now, I am many things, but I am not naive. So I do of course find myself wondering if he is actively dating now. And to be honest with you Blu, when I think of all this family time against the backdrop of that possibility, I get PI**ED OFF. That thought fills me with anger and resentment. So does that mean I shouldn’t be doing it, knowing that scenario is a very real possibility, but still a hypothetical? I really really don’t know. Can you tell me Blu?? Haha.
Your last questions are also great ones. How do I think he’d react if I started dating someone else? I think I can guess how he’d FEEL, but I honestly don’t have any idea what it would mean for him or what he’d DO. I think it would bother him and I think he’d be jealous. I also think it would make him rethink his choices. I don’t know if he would allow himself to be motivated to action. He is such a passive, path of least resistance person (a major source of conflict in our M) that I wonder if he’d just let it happen and say oh well, I guess it’s really over. To be totally clear, at this point I’m not even against finding out. At this point, if someone interesting asked me on a date I would definitely go, and I wouldn’t feel bad about it. I wouldn’t start a relationship and if he open and honest about my situation, but I would allow myself to see what is out there if it presented itself. It just never does because I’m always with my daughter and have almost no adult time What would he do if I did a 180 and detached? Part of me thinks I have started in a small (infinitesimal) way to do that, and that tiny shift has had a positive effect. Though I’m not nearly detached, I’m inching my way closer to as the months go by. After our court appearance I FINALLY reached the checkpoint of actually believing that I will be ok if we get divorced. That has been HUGE for me. I don’t initiate or request any of the time we spend together. I don’t ask him about his life or volunteer info about mine. I am not emotionally detached from him, but I do my best to act as if I am. I’m thinking about this Blu. I’m trying to think of authentic 180s I could make toward detachment, for my sitch and for me. Do you have any suggestions???
Sorry for the loooonnnng post! I still want to respond to you Woods and Cardinal, so I’ll do so in another post shortly!
a difference between my sitch and yours is that my H has/had a mountain of resentments and anger toward me for issues in our R.
My H is also excellent at compartmentalizing and has always said he copes by not thinking about things until he wants to. Sometimes it's hard to tease out the difference between the resentments he has that I need to own and the ones he's accumulated in other relationships/areas of his life and is now associating with me. Though there's not an OW as far as I know, it does seem he is experiencing a similar kind of validation and exhilaration in the new friends he's made: they get him, they appreciate him.
It sounds like maybe your H is starting to see, if not yet face, that all is not as he'd imagined it would be in his new life.
Originally Posted by HopeCA
I’m trying to think of authentic 180s I could make toward detachment, for my sitch and for me.
I wish I could offer you a suggestion here! This seems like it would be so much more complicated with children. I hope Blu and others have suggestions for you, as I'm thinking about this myself.
Hi Hope, I feel so much for you, even though the timing of our situations is different-- that feeling of being like old times and for a moment you can just forget all this is going on, and when D4 is so sweet and cute and happy with you both there-- it is utterly heartbreaking and so, so confusing.
Originally Posted by HopeCA
He has an uncanny ability (for better or for worse, mainly worse IMO) to compartmentalize things and justify his choices at all costs. I believe (though I obviously could be completely wrong) that if I had continued on avoiding the family time for the sake of avoiding his cake eating, it would have allowed him to never look back.
My H is *exactly* the same. I can't recall a time where he made a significant life choice (or one was made for him) that he didn't turn in his head into the best thing that ever happened to him. Is this something that he recognizes? In light of this, it is pretty interesting that he has admitted to you his feelings of wavering.
Originally Posted by HopeCA
I also think a difference between my sitch and yours is that my H has/had a mountain of resentments and anger toward me for issues in our R. Though he did start dating an OW shortly after he moved out, he was very clear that he was leaving me because he wanted out. I remember you specifically stating that your H never really wanted to leave in the first place, and was dealing with a limerance/affair sitch (please feel free to correct if I’m getting it wrong!) in my sitch, the OW was a symptom/natural consequence of Hs leaving and considering himself single and dating.
OMG! I have the best of both worlds-- my H is/was both full of resentment and anger towards me AND is completely limerent with another woman!
I don't know if this is helpful or worthwhile or not... but for what its worth, months passed between my H stating he was thinking he wanted out/ "I love you but I'm not in love with you", wanted to seriously consider divorce and moving out and finally admitting he was involved in an emotional affair with another woman. Both of us were traveling a lot between the two BDs, plus guests, so I think if circumstances had been different and I hadn't been so adamantly against him moving out he easily could have done so without me ever knowing that there was some level of overlap with her. He also minimized the relationship when he first told me about it (implied that it was someone he could imagine being involved with) and it is only in the past month or so that I've truly started to understand just how strong his limerence is. My H is someone who would never tell even the tiniest white lie and was disgusted by people who lied... and now is regularly lying or lying by omission. All this to say, I wouldn't automatically believe him that the OW started after he moved out. He may not have started actually dating her, but it could have been a factor.
Also, even if Plan A is no longer her, maybe for your H there is still the imaginary OW or life out there that he is scared will pass him by if he returns... even if it isn't another person, you're still dealing reality with bills and childcare and all the rest vs. his fantasy of what life might be like or might have been like if only he wasn't married. That might be even harder to compete with than an OW.
I'm not trying to be discouraging-- far from it-- and I'm grappling with a lot of these same issues in my own sitch so forgive me if I'm coloring yours with a brush that isn't appropriate. But, it does seem like your small steps of detaching are working. And maybe, if you're right that he isn't dating anyone right now, it might be a good time to take a stronger step towards detaching such that he gets a little worried.
Here's an idea-- can you find childcare for NYE and make your own plans to go out with friends? Even just drinking wine with friends at someone's house and watching the ball drop-- or inviting folks over to your house? He doesn't have to know what you're doing (and I know childcare is easier said than done-- though if Christmas Eve is normally his would NYE be his too?) but it isn't a holiday that you need to spend with D4, and rather than waiting around for him to maybe want to do something, you can have something already planned that you know will be fun and fulfilling for you.
Hang in there, Hope!! I'm rooting for you your sitch gives me hope as well.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Afterward when we were putting D4 to bed, she said “I love you guys so much and I just can’t choose who I want to put me to bed!” I assured her she doesn’t have to choose and she pulled us both in for a big group hug and gave us both lots of kisses.
omg this part made me cry. That is the both the sweetest and the saddest thing I've ever read here. I'm sorry that you're going through this, but I'm glad that your daughter is still getting lots of love from both of you
Hi Woosa,
I cried so much after she said that. I went into the other room and closed the door and sobbed hard for a few minutes. It was so so sweet—she said it almost gleefully—-but my god did it break my heart. I give a lot of credit to myself and even to H for this aspect of things. After some bumps in the road early on, we have really managed to ease our daughter through all of this as best as can be imagined (I think? I hope). The fact that we both embraced her and allowed her to get us into a group hug without pausing likely spoke volumes for her on a subconscious level. I hope and believe that more than anything else we gave her the message that we both love her more than anything, and that she never has to make a choice when it comes to loving mom and dad. Well, now Im crying again. And praying that what I just wrote proves to be true no matter what happens.
Hi Cardinal,
I plan to read your sitch all the way through as soon as I can, and I’ll def respond more there. Yes, I definitely, waaaaay more than sufficiently made it clear to H that I didn’t want a D from the beginning. Once it actually started happening (a year and a few months in) I was so fed up that I accepted it matter of factly as a default reaction. That level of detachment didn’t last long, I’m afraid. We had our first appearance in November. Between his filing and that appearance we had almost no material communication about the agreement. I was literally wondering if he even remembered the scheduled that the court date existed the night before. The morning of, he was texting me trying to get me to agree to things, literally an hour before we went in. Yeah, that wasn’t going to happen. So we went in with literally no update to give. We had done nothing. It was open court so it was a room full of couples in various stages of dissolution giving their statues updates to a judge. It went on for hours and would have been extremely boring had it not been so excruciating. I cried the entire time. After ward I texted my H and didn’t hold back, telling him how I feel about all of this and about us etc. That’s when he shocked me by telling me about his wavering and his confusion etc.
At that appearance the judge was required to give us another status check in date. We were offered 30, 60 or 90 days. He picked 60. That date (which I neglected to even make note of because I was so upset) is sometime in early January. We have not spoken of it or anything related even once. And here I am. Since you live near me, you can likely expect similar, should it come to that and barring some other possibilities that I’ll address on your thread. I’m sorry you’re here, and I hope I can be helpful!
Hi May,
I’ve been following your sitch closely Does my H recognize the way he compartmentalizes and justifies? Not historically. Until very very recently he demonstrated little to know introspection or self awareness at all. (It’s disturbing, actually, and was another major source of conflict between us). His recent glimpse of self awareness and introspection has been refreshing, relieving, and frustrating at once. His admitting to feelings of wavering etc were a complete and utter shock to me.
Originally Posted by may22
I don't know if this is helpful or worthwhile or not... but for what its worth, months passed between my H stating he was thinking he wanted out/ "I love you but I'm not in love with you", wanted to seriously consider divorce and moving out and finally admitting he was involved in an emotional affair...All this to say, I wouldn't automatically believe him that the OW started after he moved out. He may not have started actually dating her, but it could have been a factor.
Ive thought about this so much over the months. He is not a good liar, and thanks to my attachment issues I am what they call “hyper vigilant” aka a bit of a human lie detector (it has its pluses and minuses). I can usually rely on my ability to tell when someone is lying. That said, I’m also just a flawed human so, grain of salt. From the beginning, I didn’t doubt that he had met her after he moved out. I took his word for it for about a year. After he filed for D I asked him to level with me, because there wasn’t any real reason to lie anymore. He stuck to his story, that they met a few months after he moved out. At the time it seemed all was lost in my sitch, so I grilled him and he was oddly accommodating. I was matching dates, texts, convos he and I had, the whole thing. All said and done, I truly believe that they met after he moved out. I could absolutely be wrong and be a fool! I do trust my gut though, because it’s all I have and it’s rarely misled me when someone’s honesty is in question. Allllll that said, none of it mattered all that much because the utterly soul destroying pain was the same, I imagine. When I found out about OW I was completely destroyed and functioning at a bare minimum level ie parenting and that’s literally it. It was horrific and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Again, I believe him on this one, and again, I could totally be wrong.
To your other point, yes, there is absolutely a piece of this that is my H having a fantasy of what life/marriage/women could be like outside of us. I remember thinking that when we’d fight and he’s complain about things and I’d say “you have this idea that there are all these women out there who won’t have these expectations of you and I really think your kidding yourself”. I think he thought/thinks that it’s just that I’m difficult/controlling/rigid/want too much and that an easier life with an easy going woman is out there for him. And you’re right, that IS hard to compete with, maybe even harder than an OW. All I can do on that one is hope he realizes that is a fantasy, and that true partnership involves give and take, and that any smart, strong woman is going to have expectations of her partner...
Your NYE idea is not a bad one! I bet it would bother him if I went out dressed up and didn’t tell him where I was going. I’ll work on that . I’ll respond on your thread too! You’ve been insanely leave headed about your sitch, and I commend you.
I believe in trusting your gut and I think it is healthy and strong. Also, I get that it doesn't really matter in the end when it all started up with OW. For me, it was reassuring to know (finally) that there was another person in the picture- it made a lot of things make more sense to me, and the gut twitching that had been telling me it was a potential issue even with all gaslighting he'd been doing ("how could you even ask me that?") helped me have more faith in myself, even as all the things I had believed him to be (not a liar or a cheater) crumbled. Anyway-- I'm glad you have that ability. It is a good thing.
I think both of our Hs-- probably many of the WSs on this board-- are all living in some level of fantasy land of what life could only be like if, if, if. And it is TOTALLY a fantasy. Human beings are flawed creatures, and any smart, strong, woman WILL have expectations and needs of her partner. To be honest, I don't know if it is all that different between an imaginary person and an AP at this point, because even though my H has a real live person to pin his fantasies on, he is still in the imaginary stage. (Does he think SHE would be cool with me going on a two-week vacation with him and the kids? Or eating dinner together every night without her? And if she was... that feels even more bizarre to me.)
I was speaking to a potential MC the other day and gave him the bare bones of my sitch. He said there is no way to ever compete with the AP in these situations because it is a fantasy, while my H has seen my at my absolute worst in every possible way-- but real love is what happens after the fantasy ends. I guess if your H (my H, any of our Ss) can't come to understand that, they aren't good partnership material either, because they'll just do the same thing in their next R, or again to us if they return without really understanding what love is or have unrealistic expectations of what a partnership should look like. So yes, I guess we have to hope that they'll figure it out, but we can't wait around feeling sorry for ourselves while they pull their heads out of their a**es. Right??! (talking to myself here too )
Go for something fun on NYE!! Dress up! Post here what you do!
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Hi cardinal. Thanks for checking in, I was just coming here to post my update.
Since I last posted, my H has been spending more time here with us, and seeming closer and closer. The today, he texted me the following:
Hi. As you know I want to proceed with the divorce. I am going to drop the financial disclosure off to you tomorrow, and as hard as it is to talk about I am hoping we can discuss things around that. Our progress appointment is next week Tuesday. I want you to know I would never try to take her away from you and I’m not going to leave you hanging financially speaking. I just want to know what I’ll be able to accomplish with regard to affording a place where she can have a space of her own. I’m sorry if this bums you out. It brings up a lot of emotions for me too.
Though I shouldn’t be, I’m completely shocked. I let myself get caught up and got my expectations and hopes up, even as I told myself I wasn’t doing just that. And even though I’m stronger than I was, I’m devastated right now. I really thought there was no way he’d turn away again, it would just be too strange after the way things have been. But here I am. No mention of any of this over the past 2 months, and he hits me with it a week before our court date. As usual, I don’t totally believe him, but I have no choice but to take it at face value and go along with the next steps. I allowed my heart to be broken all over again. I’m so confused and so disappointed in him and in myself. I don’t know what to do next, except that I need to go along with what comes next, and I need to completely stop the family time and whittle it down to as little contact as possible...? I don’t even know anymore.
I’m glad you still update and post too! I agree with you completely, people need to feel the loss of things to want them back. In my sitch, over time, I’ve come to believe that for my H in particular he also needs to be reminded of what he’s missing in a material way. He has an uncanny ability (for better or for worse, mainly worse IMO) to compartmentalize things and justify his choices at all costs. I believe (though I obviously could be completely wrong) that if I had continued on avoiding the family time for the sake of avoiding his cake eating, it would have allowed him to never look back. I also think a difference between my sitch and yours is that my H has/had a mountain of resentments and anger toward me for issues in our R. Though he did start dating an OW shortly after he moved out, he was very clear that he was leaving me because he wanted out. I remember you specifically stating that your H never really wanted to leave in the first place, and was dealing with a limerance/affair sitch (please feel free to correct if I’m getting it wrong!) in my sitch, the OW was a symptom/natural consequence of Hs leaving and considering himself single and dating. (Yes I have PLENTY of my own feelings and opinions about all of that, but that’s a whole post in and of itself!) In other words, I think in my sitch H needed/needs opportunities to see and feel our M and family life in a different light, and to feel that it could potentially be good again. 