Z, ********************************************************** She is stuck between us... afraid to make a mistake and leave the marriage, afraid to allow this thing that looks like her happiness to her pass her by. She remains clueless that happiness lies within. She is searching for it outward. I believe that as long as he is hanging in there, as long as he is a distraction from her unhappiness, she will never notice or realize where that happiness's true source is. There is nothing I can do to hasten that discovery, nothing I can do to point it out. Any attempt will be read as controlling and directive. It requires self discovery, self awareness. As long as she can blame me for her unhappiness, and few him as the source of happiness, she will not examine that self. **********************************************************
Z,
Have you given W complete control of the R? For a guy who knows so much(as written above), what are you after. Does W really talk about this guy(OM) alot? She cringes when you touch her?? Sounds like somebody I would not want to hang with very much. What progress has your W made?
Never forget that your R is not just about W getting what she wants. You need your fulfillment to. Maybe your looking to W for friendship is like looking for justice from a traffic judge.
I don't want to exacerbate any less than loving feelings you are experiencing. I just merely want to point out that you don't sound like you are caring for Z very well.
Have I given her complete control? Yes, I suppose I have. Talk to OM? She says very little - other than in the group - social contact. In fairness, the "cringe" thing was months ago, not repeated for some time. Most recently, in a C session, she modified that to "tensing up" when I touched her. I "reflected" it back with "cringe" and C pointed out that she didn't use that word. I laughed, and said "Oh, well there's some progress!!!" We all laughed, and it ended up with an "assignment" from C for both of us to actively "touch", and to ask permission to do so, so to prepare the other and have no unpleasant, unwanted "surprises", or "violations of space". Fair warning, I suppose. Truly, it does seem to help. I think W was reacting to touches as something she "knew" I should be allowed to do, but felt conflicted about me touching her. (anything more I have to say on this would be attempts at mind reading).
There is and has been lots and lots of progress, but it's really, really slow. Sometimes, the only way to truly measure the progress it to compare against the way things were many months ago. For example, a year ago this week, I received the "lawyer letter". It's a miserably, painfully slow process. Is this the way it has been for others in "recovery"? This is where I'm plagued with the feelings about contact with OM. It is this snail's pace toward recovery that makes me believe she's "stuck", and he has something to do with that. As long as she he's around, and she's got any "what if..." remaining in her mind, our R stagnates. It's almost as if progress in our R is "disloyal" to their R. Progress continues, none the less at glacial pace, and like a glacieris, I believe, unstoppable. Given all the positive signs of this progress, it's hard to understand and explain the agonizingly slow pace. As much as I probably should not, I search for explainations, and I repeatedly return to OM as a most likely one.
I feel like there may be an attempt being made to just plain wear me down. Since I live in a "fault" divorce state, and she has no obvious grounds, she can't simply file and divorce me. I sometimes wonder if there is a conspiracy to simply wear me down, to convince me (or get me to convince myself) that this is just simply not going to work. And to do so in a manner that shows me that we can be friends, but that the marriage doesn't work. Then, we part as friends, she gets the divorce as simply as breaking up with her high-school steady, and we move on to live happily ever after --- apart. This is my biggest remaining mind game I play with myself, because to me there is so little that explains this snails pace.
She's so closed off emotionally (always has been) that I have no idea what to think. Yes, Kent, I suppose I'm not taking care of myself very well right now. I guess it may be I've just hit one of those low spots in my emotional life cycle and I'm wallowing. Maybe the answer it just to do some more things on my own and distract me from this drama. Many of the projects I;ve been involved with these past months are winding down, and work is slow, so I have the time to wallow. I guess I have to find new ways to fill that time.
Wallowing is allowed, I think! At least occasionally. I still do it. I try to use it as an indicator that something needs to change. Something I can control (that limits it eh).
I really feel for your sitch Z. You are The DB king but your W won't play along. Your idea about your W trying to wear you down is very interesting. My W told me during our reconciliation time that she was doing that to me. She said that she didn't have a good reason to D me and was trying to make me mad enough to leave. I agree with your theory but I think it is a passive attempt. If she gets to do everything she wants and still be M then why get D. The question is will she reward your perseverance with mending your R or will she continue to take advatage of the sitch. My W was touched by the fact that I wouldn't give up but what finally changed the sitch was me getting fed up and letting her know I was. Your passive approach has held it together so far but you and RandyH are in the same boat. You are amazingly patient and incredible DBers but at what point does the sitch break you down. I don't think your W has anything to lose. Her life will not change a whole lot whether you stay M or not. That is a problem for your position. You are a better man than me by leaps and bounds for your diligence in keeping your M together. She may appreciate that one day but unfortunately it will probably be too late. Take care of yourself. Become selfish in regards to your feelings and well being. You have shown her all she should need to see in regards to your love and devotion to her. She has had plenty of time to figure this out in my opinion but she also has no motivation to restore the R. That is a huge problem.
I still think there may be an element of truth to what I posted. Take it FWIW, but if you're right, and she's reserving the avenue of "going to him", then that's her plan "B".
She's still in C. She's still working on your R. She said in C that she wants to "feel in love" with you again. If that works out, then OM will revert to a friend. That's plan "A".
So long as she sticks to plan "A", her perception will be that OM is not a threat to you, and your concerns are unfounded.
I'll go with Rachael. Keep on doing what you're doing, and your W will stick to plan A.
As to the control issue... It's a sad fact that whoever wants the least out of a R has control. I agree with Kent insofar that control of the R doesn't mean control of you unless you let it.
But having said that, I think that when our S perceives that we are/were controlling, our first 180 must be to relinquish all control.
At some point, however, the power struggle has to stop. Step one, as I mentioned is for you to relinquish control, thus removing the threat to her independence.
I don't know how to get step two, which of course, is when you can start negotiating. I suppose, step two can only happen when the SO decides to let it happen.
You and I have both been following this path, Z. We both have to stick to it.
In my Sitch, from mid-April thru May, my W's plan A was to move out to be with OM. At the beginning of June, the OM sabatoged her plan A (Told W not to contact him for a while as his W had come back to town.) Plan B was to go ahead and move out on her own anyway. She said she got tired of fighting for Plan B (family, friends, coworkers were telling her she shouldn't) caused her to come up with Plan C - which was to look at whether M was worth a try. A week later, she let me know plan C turned into Plan A. However, I discover she was fantasizing a Plan D which was hoping she could have both of us. but plan D seems to have faded away as we both make progress with plan A.
My point in this lighthearted take of my experience is that they are cautiously exploring all options in this point of their lives in hopes of chosing the right plan that will lead to their happiness. They believe they are at that proverbial fork in the road and they have only one shot to get it right. The problem is they are just as uncertain in which plan is the right one and may take a long time for them to choose on their own or until outside influences alters their options.
Good one Kaw-I think youare right no. They must exhaust themselves trying to choose which plan to take-then it changes. SHe will finally come to the conclusion the plan to stay with her family is the right one after all her fretting. AFter all, its what usually happens. THey stay, and then they decide it's where they should have been all along-mentally and physically, and THEN yousatr to see eosme real changes inher actions towards you. I am speaking from my OWN experience. THe inner turmoil is just too much after a time. SHe will make her decision and be glad she did. Rachael
It really is amazing how similar our situations are. I can truly feel for you. I understand it.
I understand that feeling of disappointment when you hear it's the OM she is playing with. I have that same feeling deep down where it just eats at me sometimes and I can't let go. I don't know really how we could let it go when the source of that feeling is so prominent.
I think it's great the way you and your wife were able to discuss the situation and you were able to explain how you would rather hear of contact with the OM from her. I'm impressed that she was able to understand and agree to that. I would like to be able to talk to my H that way, to be able to explain to him my concerns and then have him acknowledge them and agree to make a change.
I think our S's do see how continuing contact with the OP doesn't help the progress of the marriage, but they still have a fear of stopping it. They still don't trust in the marriage enough yet to think they can or should completely give up contact with OP, especially since it's only on a friendship level (for some reason, I don't think it occurs to them that the fact that it stepped over the line of friendship at one point changes things) I also think there is still that factor of selfishness that keeps them from doing it, their wants and needs are still first and foremost to them right now I think. They probably do feel like they have "permission" to remain friends with the OP, but yet I think there is probably some discomfort about it in them. (really deep down, so deep they barley hear it, there has got to be a common sense or conscience that tells them it's not completely right) I'm not so convinced that she is trying to "wear you down". I think it's much more about her and what she is not ready to relinquish yet. I do sympathize with you being plagued by the continued contact, and I too think it has to be a contributing factor to a slower recovery. Still, I just hold out the hope that it will happen, that our S's will come as close to "no" contact as they possibly can while sharing the same friends as the OP. I also hope that when that time comes it will also be the time when they do tell us they've seen or been in contact with the OP, and maybe even share that they wish the OP hadn't been there.
Sorry I have no real advice, but I just wanted you to know I understand and I'm here checking on you.
Terrific insight. You're so right.... plan a, plan b, and as KAW points out, plans l-m-n-o-p!!!!
Yes, that's what she's doing. And I, and the marriage, are plan A, I'm sure of it. Thank you for showing this to me.
We had a C session today. Saying it went well doesn't even begin to tell. C noticed how we are moving along, in parallel, but separate, but moving ahead. C said we seem to be in issues of being "closed", "shutdown", or of trust. W asks for clarity on the terms, so C explains: "closed" means not telling what's inside. "shutdown" means not receiving messages from the out side. I'll let you figure out trust... So, C leaves that out, waiting. So, I say "I'll bite...." thinking I'll talk about how I'm trying to "make it safe" for W to talk to me, and use the context of the talk about OM. C says, "no, W, you asked first, you start. What's up?" And, W proceeds to say almost exactly what I was going to say, expressing appreciation that I "made it safe" for her to tell me. I'm blown away...
So, we explored this thing about making it safe.... Andy, are you smiling about this??? I am and was!!!!! It came down to discussing how I was dealing with this OM contact, and I got a chance to make a speach... One I've been wanting to make for a long time... about respect. I pointed out how I feel about W in contact with OM, or with any man, or any friend. I pointed out that I believed it was none of my business. I acknowledged that must sound really twisted, but that I believe that what W does, what W choices are is her business, and all I can to is choose to accept it or not. All I can hope is that W makes her choices and respects and honors me and the marriage. I have only two choices.... accept her choices, ... or not. (at that point I couldn't identify, really, what my other choice was. upon reflection, I realize it is to leave the R.) Then, they both tried to shoot my premise down, but I stuck to it. I said I truly believe this. I have no right to expect to control my W, I can only accept her choices or not. That is the truth to me. Then, I added that I had combined this thought with another... that in the deepest, darkest hours of OR, I had realized that to preserve my sanity, I had to lower all my expectations to zero. I expected nothing, so I was not dissappointed, only rewarded. C nodded, and understood. I said that one of the scariest moments of this ordeal was when W said she would try to work this out, and I realized I would have to "trust" her on this, I would have to raise my expectations to the level of trusting that she would work. I had become so secure in assuming no trust, in having no expectation of her being trustworthy, that I underwent a small crisis in realizing that I would have to expose myself to potential dissappointment again. It scared the living Sh-- out of me. They both really, really, understood what was required for that leap of faith.
so, C was amazed. W acknowledged that I read a lot, that I have worked hard on myself. I began to tear. C pointed out that this was such a gift to W. W could not resist coming over to my chair and hugging.
I had a good day, my friends. I was heard. For the first time in many, many months. I can't say whether I'm on top of the world, or whether I'm just at peace.
(Told W not to contact him for a while as his W had come back to town.) Plan B was to go ahead and move out on her own anyway. She said she got tired of fighting for Plan B (family, friends, coworkers were telling her she shouldn't) caused her to come up with Plan C - which was to look at whether M was worth a try. A week later, she let me know plan C turned into Plan A. 
However, I discover she was fantasizing a Plan D which was hoping she could have both of us. 
but plan D seems to have faded away as we both make progress with plan A. 
