Hi Michele, I haven't finished your book yet and don't have questions right now but comments instead. I would like to point out two things you said that hit home. To quote what you said in your book on page 59:
"Does marriage have its equilivalent to the "Terrible Twos...?"Because people are unfamiliar with the emotional terrain, the normal hills and valleys of marriage, these predictable transitional periods are often misunderstood, causing overreactions."
I think that is what happened to me 9 months ago when the 'bomb' dropped. I overreacted. I think reading the above quote can help those who are going through marital problems, calm down a bit.
About chapter 5, - Cheeseless tunnels, you mention how people go down the same wrong tunnel time and time again. They don't realize they are doing more of the same. They think their new way is a different tunnel, when it really isn't. I just find it interesting that people can't seem to realize they are doing this. I know I've done this - and like you said in your book, everyone does. Kathy
[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Wintergirl ]
Beth2, I'm really glad that my feedback was useful. I know that you will feel more centered when you handle things the new Beth way. Keep up the good work. And thanks again for your thoughts.
Wintergirl, I'm glad you are finding passages that help you think about things in a new way. You know, it's funny. A friend of mine who is divorced told me that she wished she hadn't reacted the way she did when she found out that her husband had had an affair. She said that she believes if she had been able to calm herself down and not go ballistic, they probably would still be together today. She thinks they could have worked things out. But because she went so nuts, things deteriorated incredibly. I understand what you're saying here. It's great that you see this now.
Hi I've read DR a couple times now and wonder where or if to start.
WAW has been having an open PA for 3.5 years. We built an addition so that each of us would have our own space. Kind of like moving out. She sees us as separated, and in a monogamous relationship with OM. We three do a fair amount together. She is also my business partner. I'd like to have a primary sexualloving relationship. I currently have a low intensity LDR with a woman in an open R, actually a poly W.
I'd characterize our R as friendly, occasionally our conflict over the lack of a sexual gets discussed. I recently brought up getting divorced as a way for me to move on with a new R, not an ultimatum. She was very pragmatic in her response. An act that seems really hard for me to consider, a two choice dilemma.
I'd probably try LRT except that I probably wouldn't be able to pull it off, due to my lack of other social support.
Hi Michelle - I'm new to this thread. Have been reading DR for about 3 weeks now, trying to implement some of your techniques and now feel it would be helpful to join the forums.
Here's my situation: Husband of 18 years announced in August that our relationship is over, he's leaving. Moved out shortly afterwards. This announcement comes after a year of major life changes for both of us: H turned 40, his mother passed away in the spring, major career changes for both of us. H's behavior during the past year has been strange, and I believe he is the middle of a major midlife crisis. On top of all of this, there is some kind of relationship (perhaps in his own mind, according to friends and therapists) with his new business partner - a younger woman who is married (but in a troubled marriage as well) and has a child. He tells me he wants a divorce (hasn't filed yet, and he is a divorce attorney) and plans to seek a new relationship with the business partner, but he still wants to be "friends" with me. He refuses to go to couples counseling. This is surprising, as he advises all of his clients to try counseling before going through a divorce.
Before reading DR, I was making all the usual mistakes - pursuing, begging him to come home, pushing for counseling. All of this just made him angrier. Once I picked up the book, I immediately started to use the LRT. I stopped calling him and just sort of disappeared. Before long, he began calling, leaving insignificant messages. I won't answer the phone and will not return calls. If there is something important to deal with, I'll email or leave a voice mail on his office phone. At first, I think he was confused by this. He has told a friend that it hurts him that I won't take his calls. There is now some indication that my distancing myself from him is beginning to anger or provoke him.
I'm not sure what to do at this point. He claims that he wants out of our relationship because he feels I have "controlled and manipulated" him all these years. Which, by the way, is what he is saying about friends and colleagues right now, as well. He has never voiced this complaint to me until now. I guess I was trying a 180 by completely backing away and letting him go - giving him the freedom that he is demanding. However, it seems he may now be interpreting this as just another way to manipulate him.
I'm also not sure what to do about the "just friends" arrangement. I also pulled away so that he would experience not having me in his life, as I have no desire to take on the role of "just a buddy" now, or once he divorces me. But according to DR and posts on this site, perhaps continuing to be his best friend keeps a door open. This one is very hard for me, for two reasons - H is very much affected by my presence (even if it is just dropping off mail at this office) and will react to his feelings by lashing out at me; and second, it hurts me to have him treat me as his best buddy while he talks about the new life he is planning.
I think my goal right now is to just stop the momentum that is leading to the divorce. And I believe H's perception of me as being controlling and manipulative is what fuels his anger. I would give anything to get into counseling with him, but he feels that this is just another way to control him, as well.
Michele, in reference to yazzie girl's reply, I wonder if LRT's and 180s can be taken too far. I'm curious about your advice to her.
For my situation, I'm no longer overreacting (or trying not to). I'm at the part in the book to "do what works even if it seems unfair." On one level, the marriage worked. We both avoided conflict, which made life appear okay on the surface. I know H and I can probably have that type of R again, but I'd like to have a more intimate R. So...my goal is to do what worked (be giving and undemanding) and do it without regretting it, but (and this is a big but), try to do it with balance in mind. I'll go back and do what I think worked but won't attach any expectations to it. I will rely on myself for my own happiness. I can be nice without being a doormat.
Hi Wintergirl: I am wondering the same thing - can 180s and LTR be taken too far? When starting the DBing, especially with a SO who is in the throes of MLC and the "rules" change by the minute, how can you tell what is working, what isn't, and what to try next? I've been reading many of the posts on the MLC threads, and it seems as though the best thing to do in my situation is to simply go dark until SO can figure out what he wants.
This website, Michelle, and all of the wonderful souls who post their experiences and wisdom here, have helped me put some things into perspective, however it is very early in the game and I'm still strugglig with many issues. As with you, Wintergirl, I want very much to find that place where I can return to being the supportive, nuturing creature that I have always been, without becoming a doormat. At least in my case, I suspect that it will take time, patience, and a great deal of skill to work my way back to that place from where I am now, without giving up the safe place I have spent the past two months trying to find. It could very well be that I have over-reacted, but then again, my SO has been running me around in circles for the past year, making demands that seem to change as I try to meet them, and then using my "failures" to meet his ever changing needs as reasons why he needs to leave. At some point, the dynamic needs to stop.
The whole issue of conflict avoidance is interesting, as well. As I work on DBing, I am constantly wondering if what I am doing is simply creating conflict. But perhaps this is part of the DB process? Not sure if this is your situation, Wintergirl, I know it is with my relationship, but perhaps in a relationship where problem-solving skills have been absent, and the method of dealing with problems has been to either avoid them or engage in unresolved conflict (doing more of the same, going down cheeseless tunnels), our personal growth involves developing the skills to work towards those "solution-oriented" goals.
Hi Michele. You answered a question for me on the last thread and I never go around to thanking you so this is a belated but heartfelt thank-you. [I asked if my 180 could be love/attention since my being cool, angry, distant had createe some of the problems. You said you weren't sure but try & see...it didn't work (pursuing behavior) but I feel better knowing I tried.] I'm re-reading DR and I'm very thankful to have it. I was also able to recommend it to a friend who was in the begging/pleading mode. ________________________________________ I have one more question. H has been gone 3 weeks; I've seen him 2x--I initiated but did not engage in ANY pursuit behavior during our time together. I've now gone to the dark, LRT phase (as a result of H not contacting me when he said he would). H HATES confrontation more than anyone I know. Can LRT still be effective with someone who avoids all confrontation??? (I'm afraid he'll just be relieved & wait me out.) Thanks again, Aly
It could very well be that I have over-reacted, but then again, my SO has been running me around in circles for the past year, making demands that seem to change as I try to meet them, and then using my "failures" to meet his ever changing needs as reasons why he needs to leave. At some point, the dynamic needs to stop.
As I work on DBing, I am constantly wondering if what I am doing is simply creating conflict. ... our personal growth involves developing the skills to work towards those "solution-oriented" goals.
yazzie, I agree that growth comes from developing DBing skills. I know my heart is in the right place, so if I make a mistake, I won't beat myself up over it. I'm learning all I can with the goal of self improvment in mind, and if I make a mistake, at least it's made toward the goal of a new me and a new and improved marriage.
You say your SO has you running around in circles - well, I think the key is to stop feeding off whatever negative he throws your way - what he says,does etc. Also, we have to give ourselves a pat on the back for trying to have a new and improved marriage, despite inevitable mistakes made along the way. And like it says in Michele's book, we have to think before we speak. That's another goal of mine. I've learned that once I do this, and don't react, it prevents me from getting looped into some negative cycle. It almost seems like a game of chess at times, and we while we can't always know what our SO thinks and will say, we do have control over how we react and act. I know it seems like for some people they feel like they are the only one working on the marriage but feeling that way really accomplishes nothing. (I'm not saying you are like this at all, but rather I was like this but finally wised up!) Best of luck to you!
Hey Wintergirl - You know, the best thing about the forums is the opportunity to learn from those who are further along in their journeys. As I have mentioned, I have just started on mine. Your words of wisdom and encouragement are much appreciated.
I still find myself self-flagellating from time to time, even though I feel my heart is also in the right place. Regardless of what my SO chooses to do, I am working on personal growth, and as such, seek to improve my contributions to our marriage. After nearly 20 years of my identity being merged with that of my SO's, it is amazing to me how much of my self I have lost. In a way, this process is so liberating and fulfilling, but is also quite painful and frightening. I agree with you that feeling the efforts are only one-sided accomplishes nothing. In my case, I am also trying to understand what my husband is going through right now. Rather than judging him, I hope to reach a point where I can nuture and support, and that he will allow me back into his life to offer him this. At this point in our individual journeys, though, he sees our marriage and relationship as non-existant. I'm working on trying to remind myself that we are still married for the time being, and this is a place to start.
Your analogy of the chess game is well taken. One lesson I did learn very early on was to stop trying to defend myself (one of the ways I was responding to the negativity). The LRT is allowing me to get centered emotionally and spiritually, as well as (I hope) allowing my SO to focus on something else besides how angry he is with me.
I have found Autumn's posts on the "Hopefulness" threads absolutely wonderful and inspiring. It took me some time to realize that my SO's unhappiness and anger with his life is not necessarily a result of me or our relationship. There was a lot of self-blame and guilt about our separation in the beginning. Now, I am working on shifting my center of wellbeing back to myself, rather than allowing it to originate from my SO and our relationship. I think this will go a long way towards helping me avoid reacting to the negativity, as I will be able to regain some of my own personal and spiritual power.
Still hoping to learn from those further down the road.....
Hi yazzie, you seem to be on the right track and that's great. I think you are further on your journey than me! I enjoy Autumns post also...it is very positive (and lively). I think I have answered my own questions but am still curious what Michele has to say about your situation (the LRT/180s). I haven't finished the book so better do it!
I think you are further on your journey than me! I enjoy Autumns post also...it is very positive (and lively).